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-   -   And the hero of our times is? (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?t=2978)

JonIrenicus 04-30-2009 01:19 AM

And the hero of our times is?
 
Felipe Calderon



/thread

graz 04-30-2009 11:52 AM

Re: And the hero of our times is?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JonIrenicus (Post 112005)
Felipe Calderon
/thread

Arm and launch the drones. Let's smoke him out and eradicate him and the flu in one shot.

JonIrenicus 04-30-2009 06:14 PM

Re: And the hero of our times is?
 
You really hate drones don't you?

I better not mention that I like lasers or you might post some inane link like this as an example of what I want:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh7bYNAHXxw



anyway,

the reason he is a hero of our times is because he is taking on the drug traffickers in Mexico, not an easy or particularly safe path to take. And for what it is worth, a majority of the people in Mexico approve of that, for all the trouble and increased violence.


Of course some America at fault first persona will bring up the US appetite for drugs and its drug war in general as a reason that the cartels exist in such force to begin with, and that may be, but unlike the pathetic creature that only points at harmful influences that he has little control over, he has taken the reigns of what he CAN control.

And for that he deserves out support.

graz 04-30-2009 06:32 PM

Re: And the hero of our times is?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JonIrenicus (Post 112131)
You really hate drones don't you?

I better not mention that I like lasers or you might post some inane link like this as an example of what I want:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh7bYNAHXxw



anyway,

the reason he is a hero of our times is because he is taking on the drug traffickers in Mexico, not an easy or particularly safe path to take. And for what it is worth, a majority of the people in Mexico approve of that, for all the trouble and increased violence.


Of course some America at fault first persona will bring up the US appetite for drugs and its drug war in general as a reason that the cartels exist in such force to begin with, and that may be, but unlike the pathetic creature that only points at harmful influences that he has little control over, he has taken the reigns of what he CAN control.

And for that he deserves out support.

Utilitarianists Unite!
Do you have evidence that he is decreasing drug smuggling?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/laura-..._b_188358.html

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/the...-george-w-bush

Quote:

If the US President or anyone is under the illusion that Calderon has the political support among the Mexican people to succeed in the failed war-on-drugs model when all leaders of all nations anywhere have not, he will end up feeling as defrauded as so many millions of Mexicans, as the death toll of that model continues rise, and with it a misery index unimaginable to most citizens of the United States.

JonIrenicus 05-01-2009 12:02 AM

Re: And the hero of our times is?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by graz (Post 112133)
Utilitarianists Unite!
Do you have evidence that he is decreasing drug smuggling?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/laura-..._b_188358.html

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/the...-george-w-bush

No, I only have evidence that he is cracking down on cartels and trafficking. And if these numbers are to be believed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felipe_...proval_ratings


He has the support of the majority of Mexicans in his efforts to crack down on the traffickers.


Do I think this will lead to an end in trafficking? No. Not by a long shot, as long as demand in the US is so high, it will remain. But perhaps it can make drug trafficking a more expensive enterprise. And eventually, it make free sections of the country from cartel control. These are not saints, and their influence over Mexican officials and police has hampered Mexicans for decades.

I am not sorry they are being cracked down on. I'll leave the tears to you on that one.


To the more reasonable critique, does anyone think the US will decriminalize drugs in the near future?

I can imagine doing so for marijuana, but cocaine? You truly think the latter will get popular support any time soon to make it legal?


Even if you think it should be legal, do you think it likely it WILL be legalized?


I have serious doubts that will happen. And so what is Felipe to do? let the cartels run wild? Turn a blind eye while they bribe and murder and coerce and disrupt Mexican Society for their profits?


Why is it some people find it Sooooooooooo easy to go after corporations that polute and cause environmental harm, but when it comes to societal harm that directly affects people, like lawlessness, they seem to lose the same fire of condemnation?


He faces in implacable drug appetite to the north, with no forseeable change in the near future, and cartels in his own country disrupting life and breaking laws, what is he to do Graz?

graz 05-01-2009 10:29 AM

Re: And the hero of our times is?
 
You have raised a number of good points. Perhaps our numbers and inclinations can fight it out - with lasers if you like?

Because it is so removed, I'm not shedding tears for the murder and mayhem brought about by Calderon's militarization of the war (why does it always come to war) on drugs. Just as you can argue that he had no choice, or celebrate his methods, I can say that a comprehensive non-lethal method that would include his Northern neighbors was an alternative.

As to his popularity. I would be wary of one wiki-poll. The truth lies somewhere between that poll and this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ-TV...eature=related

Quote:

Why is it some people find it Sooooooooooo easy to go after corporations that polute and cause environmental harm, but when it comes to societal harm that directly affects people, like lawlessness, they seem to lose the same fire of condemnation?
Which part of the flu or corporate exploitation doesn't effect people? It doesn't have to be either or so don't reduce it. Corporations are people to and should be held accountable - except there's that pesky:

person n. 1) a human being. 2) a corporation treated as having the rights and obligations of a person. Counties and cities can be treated as a person in the same manner as a corporation. However, corporations, counties and cities cannot have the emotions of humans such as malice, and therefore are not liable for punitive damages. (See: party, corporation)



Who has an answer for the intractable appetite for drugs, which in turn fuels the supply, etc. Your hero has offered one: Shoot 'em up. This seems to be your default mode and you seem rightly proud of your stance. Let's get back to the start:
And the hero of our times is?
Felipe Calderon
/thread

Not by my lights.

cognitive madisonian 05-02-2009 07:26 PM

Re: And the hero of our times is?
 
Add to that list Uribe, who has my vote for the greatest leader in the world, as of today.

David Petraeus, too. The man who should be president come inauguration day, 2013.

kezboard 05-04-2009 04:21 PM

Re: And the hero of our times is?
 
That would definitely be an example of the Peter principle.


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