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-   -   Lipstick Libertarians (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?t=1974)

Bloggingheads 07-22-2008 01:38 PM

Lipstick Libertarians
 

brucds 07-22-2008 01:48 PM

Re: Lipstick Libertarians
 
This is an awful lot of "Jane Galt" for one week. I pass.

By the way, how about bringing Spencer Ackerman back for an Iraq bakeoff with, say, the dreaded Eli ? Or maybe the egregious Frum would be more fun, since Eli and Spencer genuinely like each other.

AemJeff 07-22-2008 02:08 PM

Re: Lipstick Libertarians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by brucds (Post 84406)
This is an awful lot of "Jane Galt" for one week. I pass.

By the way, how about bringing Spencer Ackerman back for an Iraq bakeoff with, say, the dreaded Eli ? Or maybe the egregious Frum would be more fun, since Eli and Spencer genuinely like each other.

The last I heard Spackerman and Eli weren't exactly pals anymore. If it could be somehow arranged, however, I'd be pretty pleased, as well.

Exeus99 07-22-2008 02:15 PM

ohcomeon's Count
 
What's that count now, ohcomeon?

nikkibong 07-22-2008 02:16 PM

Re: Lipstick Libertarians
 
when did this website turn into meganmcardle.tv ?

TwinSwords 07-22-2008 02:49 PM

Re: Lipstick Libertarians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nikkibong (Post 84413)
when did this website turn into meganmcardle.tv ?

LOL...

jmoe 07-22-2008 03:09 PM

Re: Lipstick Libertarians
 
I really enjoyed this discussion, but doesn't there seem to be a disproportionate number of libertarians on bloggingheads? It'd be great to see Megan or Kerry or Will Wilkinson debate libertarianism on it's merits. Maybe someone can convince an economist in the ilk of Krugman to come on for it.

It's easy enough to agree with a libertarian on the amazing utility of free markets in most cases, but as soon as the discussion turns to universal child care or health care, you start to see the ideology trump reality.

PaulL 07-22-2008 03:17 PM

Re: Lipstick Libertarians
 
I love how Megan dismisses the men's rights complaint that only woman get reproductive rights.
Life is unfair and men should shut up because pregnancy has negative effects on a woman's body and makes them fat.

I'll remember that the next time she brings up any perceived injustice .

threep 07-22-2008 03:28 PM

Re: Lipstick Libertarians
 
Two resons for the libertarians on BH.tv:

1) The libertarian portion of the blogosphere has a consistency/tenor that fits well with the BloggingHeads culture. Blogging-tarianism isn't as much of a "movement" (or a "gang") as the right-wing/left-wing blogging worlds are. While everyone carries water for their ideas, internet "cosmotarians" (as opposed to "get your hands off my guns and beans") are less likely to be carrying water for a social group--which is where discourse gets compromised most powerfully.

BloggingHeads goes against the grain of standard political discourse... most people much prefer to group together and agree on how much they hate the other side. Differences get turned into hatreds and vendettas, etc. If you think about the number of people who are actually of the type to sit face to face (hah!) and hold an hour-length discussion without it degenerating into mortal insults, libertarians might be a greater portion than they are of the population at large. Again mostly because they don't have much of a "group" to be a part of, and are on the sidelines of the endless and ageless right-left battle.

2) A lot of Bloggingheads contributors have spread through blogger social networks, and a combination of chance/the topology of those networks have led libertarians into the fold.

ohcomeon 07-22-2008 04:09 PM

Re: ohcomeon's Count
 
Believe me, I've had enough of Megan, too. This just goes to my point. Who ever does the booking here seems to know a limited number of females.

graz 07-22-2008 04:16 PM

Re: ohcomeon's Count
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ohcomeon (Post 84433)
Who ever does the booking here seems to know a limited number of females.

Good point. Let's see some new faces and hear some different perspectives.

JoeK 07-22-2008 04:46 PM

Re: Lipstick Libertarians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jmoe (Post 84420)
Megan or Kerry or Will Wilkinson debate libertarianism on it's merits.

Yeah, maybe, but not this year. For a female, Megan is not a bad blogger, but I need a time out from Wilkinson-Howley shoving their abhorrent lifestyle down my throat.

TwinSwords 07-22-2008 05:04 PM

Re: Lipstick Libertarians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeK (Post 84436)
Yeah, maybe, but not this year. For a female, Megan is not a bad blogger, but I need a time out from Wilkinson-Howley shoving their abhorrent lifestyle down my throat.

Um, abhorrent lifestyle? What the heck are you talking about?

ohcomeon 07-22-2008 05:52 PM

Re: Lipstick Libertarians
 
For a female, Megan is not a bad blogger...

Yes, what the hell are you talking about.

edhesq 07-22-2008 05:55 PM

Mcardle = Libertarian who confuses consequences and choices.
 
I agree. Mcardle seems to be a Libertarian who confuses different consequences with different choices.

Whatever asymmetry exists between the experience of men and women in reproduction, the point is that women have unilateral post-coital rights of choice in whether they endure those life changes and obligations that accompany reporduction, and men do not.

otto 07-22-2008 05:58 PM

Can Mickey possibly be right?
 
Have you seen that Drudge is touting a story about John Edwards, Rielle Hunter, and a hotel room?

Exeus99 07-22-2008 06:01 PM

Re: ohcomeon's Count
 
No, you wanted women, you complained about a lack of women, and you got women. Now you're unhappy 'cause there's too much of a particular TYPE of woman? Don't libertarian-Atlantic types count? Ain't she a woman?!

JoeK 07-22-2008 06:14 PM

Re: Lipstick Libertarians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TwinSwords (Post 84437)
Um, abhorrent lifestyle? What the heck are you talking about?

Well, I think Yuppie-DINKS lifestyle is immoral. I have a five year old daughter and would be more devastated if she decided to live in a childless, um, domestic partnership than if for example, teenage-pregnancy happened to her.
Admittedly, Kerry’s case is somewhat different because she and her, um, domestic partner, have made a family business out of their abnormal lifestyle.
But still, I am curious; we know what Kerry's, socialist-catholic parents think of beauty pageants, but what does her mother think of Kerry’s intention to stay barren, while pursuing happiness in the company of her, um, domestic partner?

Apropos of Simon de Beauvoir, I’ve heard there is a great new book by some British author which paints a bleak picture of de Beauvoir’s partnership with Sartre. It would be interesting to have the author on bloggingheads.tv to learn how well that story went.

JoeK 07-22-2008 06:18 PM

Re: Lipstick Libertarians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ohcomeon (Post 84442)
For a female, Megan is not a bad blogger...

Yes, what the hell are you talking about.

That was tongue in cheek, but I don't think it is wise to ask for gender or ethnic parity at the cost of quality.

Wonderment 07-22-2008 06:29 PM

Re: Lipstick Libertarians
 
Joel,

Are you suggesting that some of the people who appear on BHTV have engaged in premarital sex?

That's outrageous! Such licentiousness has no place on the Internet.

Robert Wright, have you no decency?

TwinSwords 07-22-2008 06:31 PM

Re: Lipstick Libertarians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeK (Post 84448)
Well, I think Yuppie-DINKS lifestyle is immoral.

This is the part I'd like to hear you elaborate on. What's immoral about not having kids and living together?


Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeK (Post 84448)
I have a five year old daughter and would be more devastated if she decided to live in a childless, um, domestic partnership than if for example, teenage-pregnancy happened to her.

I can't imagine why.


Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeK (Post 84448)
Admittedly, Kerry’s case is somewhat different because she and her, um, domestic partner, have made a family business out of their abnormal lifestyle.

You're entitled to your opinion, but make no mistake: Their lifestyle is completely and totally normal.


Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeK (Post 84448)
But still, I am curious; we know what Kerry's, socialist-catholic parents think of beauty pageants, but what does her mother think of Kerry’s intention to stay barren, while pursuing happiness in the company of her, um, domestic partner?

Has she really said she intends to stay childless?


Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeK (Post 84448)
Apropos of Simon de Beauvoir, I’ve heard there is a great new book by some British author which paints a bleak picture of de Beauvoir’s partnership with Sartre. It would be interesting to have the author on bloggingheads.tv to learn how well that story went.

So, you're suggesting that the author might be able to shed some light on what awaits Will and Kerry?

threep 07-22-2008 06:42 PM

Re: Lipstick Libertarians
 
Oh, bigotry. There you are again.

AemJeff 07-22-2008 06:45 PM

Re: Lipstick Libertarians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeK (Post 84448)
Admittedly, Kerry’s case is somewhat different because she and her, um, domestic partner, have made a family business out of their abnormal lifestyle.

Abnormal? Do you actually contend that any norms are violated by the cohabitation of two adults in 2008? Really?

ohcomeon 07-22-2008 07:07 PM

Re: Lipstick Libertarians
 
That was tongue in cheek, but I don't think it is wise to ask for gender or ethnic parity at the cost of quality.

I have never asked for ethnic or gender parity. As I have stated previously - I am not asking for quotas, I am asking for variety. I don't remember the exact figures and am too lazy to research them now but something like 12 divalogs in a row featured no women and only one person of color. And, if you don't believe that it is possible to have good quality divalogs while having more than one in ten include females, you really are a sexist.

BTW - While I really enjoy both Will and Kerry, I think that Libertarians are over represented here.

Exeus99 07-22-2008 07:14 PM

Re: Lipstick Libertarians
 
12 or 13 in a row over your sample, yes, but since then, how have the numbers done? Isn't that the point?

JoeK 07-22-2008 07:39 PM

Re: Lipstick Libertarians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ohcomeon (Post 84459)
That was tongue in cheek, but I don't think it is wise to ask for gender or ethnic parity at the cost of quality.

I have never asked for ethnic or gender parity. As I have stated previously - I am not asking for quotas, I am asking for variety. I don't remember the exact figures and am too lazy to research them now but something like 12 divalogs in a row featured no women and only one person of color.

I am of two minds here. In theory, having bloggers of different backgrounds makes things more dynamic, but once a diavlog starts I care only about the quality of ideas and their presentation. In general, I do get annoyed when certain ideas, not demographics, are under represented.
Quote:

Originally Posted by ohcomeon (Post 84459)
And, if you don't believe that it is possible to have good quality divalogs while having more than one in ten include females, you really are a sexist.

I do remember Heather MacDonald kicking Glenn Loury's ass as one of my favorite diavlogs. But how often they come, I wouldn’t know. Proof would be in the pudding, I guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohcomeon (Post 84459)
BTW - While I really enjoy both Will and Kerry, I think that Libertarians are over represented here.

Group of young Libertarians that appear on bloggigheads.tv are all left-radicals. They think that every societal institution (patriotism, national sovereignty, marriage, parenthood) needs to justify its existence in the light of the sorry-ass philosophical system they came up with. I say, if your philosophy cannot account for patriotism, than it's the philosophy we shall get rid of.

JoeK 07-22-2008 07:42 PM

Re: Lipstick Libertarians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 84455)
Abnormal? Do you actually contend that any norms are violated by the cohabitation of two adults in 2008? Really?

AemJef et al:

My emphasis is on permanent, deliberate childlessness not on unmarried nature of their relationship.

ohcomeon 07-22-2008 07:48 PM

Re: Lipstick Libertarians
 
Over the last 12 divalogs 6 have included women - BUT 3 of those have been women have been Megan, that is not variety.

Exeus99 07-22-2008 07:51 PM

Re: Lipstick Libertarians
 
But you wanted women, right? XX-types? Any woman vs. nothing but men is greater variety, right? If what you wanted was variety of some non-just-more-women kind, I don't think you called for it in your tabulation. Now that you've received more women your dissatisfaction seems like buyer's regret. You called for more women, and got them!

TwinSwords 07-22-2008 07:55 PM

Re: Lipstick Libertarians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeK (Post 84467)
AemJef et al:

My emphasis is on permanent, deliberate childlessness not on unmarried nature of their relationship.

Really, the appropriate response to this is "what business is it of yours how they choose to live?"

Speaking strictly for myself, I think you have a hell of a lot of nerve insulting them because they don't have kids.

TwinSwords 07-22-2008 07:59 PM

Re: Lipstick Libertarians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Exeus99 (Post 84472)
But you wanted women, right? XX-types? Any woman vs. nothing but men is greater variety, right? If what you wanted was variety of some non-just-more-women kind, I don't think you called for it in your tabulation. Now that you've received more women your dissatisfaction seems like buyer's regret. You called for more women, and got them!

I guess the idea you're advancing is that ohcomeon is allowed to have one, and no more than one, preference. Is that about right? Ohc can have a preference for more women, but then having expressed that preferences, is not allowed to express any other preferences?

Does that seem logical to you? Does that seem like how the real world works?

handle 07-22-2008 08:02 PM

Re: Lipstick Libertarians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeK (Post 84448)
Well, I think Yuppie-DINKS lifestyle is immoral. I have a five year old daughter and would be more devastated if she decided to live in a childless, um, domestic partnership than if for example, teenage-pregnancy happened to her.

Look on the bright side, from my experience she will marry someone like you, a man who doesn't see themselves as a woman hater or a gay basher, who's conscious self image is that of an indignant victim of societal moral decay, and her marriage will turn out to be as glorious and harmonious as I suspect yours is.... or was.

ohcomeon 07-22-2008 08:02 PM

Re: Lipstick Libertarians
 
No, I specifically asked for variety. I don't want 10 divalogs in a row with nothing but white men. I also don't want 10 in a row with women, Mexicans, or Jews. I want VARIETY. Using one woman to represent women is tokenism. It's like that one "liberal" on FOX.

I will concede that the variety has improved since the stretch about which I was complaining. But just having the same white, upper class, libertarian woman over and over is NOT variety.

razib 07-22-2008 08:04 PM

Re: Lipstick Libertarians
 
i find the term "lipstick" an excessive concession to white male heteronormative expectations of what a "woman" should be; i.e., "lipstick" = normative and "non-lipstick" = many unmentionable terms of opprobrium.

cragger 07-22-2008 08:07 PM

Re: Mcardle = Libertarian who confuses consequences and choices.
 
Pretty hard to agree that men have no post coital choice, given the number that chose to walk away and leave the woman to deal with any result.

graz 07-22-2008 08:13 PM

Re: Lipstick Libertarians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by razib (Post 84478)
i find the term "lipstick" an excessive concession to white male heteronormative expectations of what a "woman" should be; i.e., "lipstick" = normative and "non-lipstick" = many unmentionable terms of opprobrium.

I'm not falling for it again razib.

TwinSwords 07-22-2008 08:13 PM

Re: Lipstick Libertarians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by razib (Post 84478)
i find the term "lipstick" an excessive concession to white male heteronormative expectations of what a "woman" should be; i.e., "lipstick" = normative and "non-lipstick" = many unmentionable terms of opprobrium.

The use of the phrase "lipstick libertarian" is an ironic reference to this article.

Also: I'm not sure how you conclude that the implication is that lipstick = normal and non-lipstick = unmentionable terms of opprobrium.

Where are those ideas expressed?

If anything, the use of the term in The Village Voice is a play on the term "lipstick lesbian."

ohcomeon 07-22-2008 08:17 PM

Re: Lipstick Libertarians
 
I feel that way, too. But fighting the more obvious battle has worn me out. I know I will bring horrible wrath down upon myself by saying this, but sometimes arguing with men over just having a seat a the table gets really old. Bob, if you are out there in commentor world, it would do me a lot of good if you would even acknowledge that you are listening and thinking about what I am saying. You don't have to agree - just weigh in.

Exeus99 07-22-2008 08:26 PM

Re: Lipstick Libertarians
 
Ohcomeon can have as many preferences as they like; they expressed a desire for more women 'vloggers by counting (and keeping current with an early post updating the number in each comment section) the number of 'vlogs in a row without any women. I thought that this was a poor way to measure variety--a sentiment with which ohcomeon now seems to agree. "# of 'vlogs in a row without a woman" isn't a very good metric for "variety on the site," as demonstrated with ohcomeon's displeasure with the level of variety despite the large number of recent 'vlogs with women! That Ohcomeon's choice of preference metric was poor is shown by their lack of satisfaction despite that metric's having greatly improved.

graz 07-22-2008 08:27 PM

Re: Lipstick Libertarians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ohcomeon (Post 84476)
But just having the same white, upper class, libertarian woman over and over is NOT variety.

Familiarity breeds contempt... Enough Megan for a day or so.
The problem seems to be that we (the viewers and commenters have no perspective on the booking process. If I recall correctly, there have been dozens of threads requesting certain potential vloggers or subject matters for discussion. As grateful as I am for bhtv, I wouldn't mind acknowledgement that our requests might be addressed. Even if that would include a clear statement by bhtv that the process is "take it as it comes." I know that Bob cares about our input, but it might be self-flattery or just unlikely that we can exert much influence. That fact that participants are unpaid (directly), seems to limit the talent pool in my mind.


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