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-   -   The slippery slope has now become a cliff (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?t=5864)

graz 08-26-2010 01:39 AM

Re: The slippery slope has now become a cliff
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 176856)
I, for one, had no complaints until today.

So you mean that you're not accepting RC Ocean's tag of "whiner?"

Do you reject his premise or is your contention that since you've only engaged once you're exempt? Or are you gun-shy (due to quick-draw Brenda) and afraid to say that he may have a reading impediment, as your post is concise and well reasoned? He failed to make a case against it, right?

Don Zeko 08-26-2010 01:57 AM

Re: The slippery slope has now become a cliff
 
I basically picked this out because it was the lowest hanging fruit in his post. My bigger problem was the way rcocean was describing liberal commenters without really differentiating between our different attitudes towards the new forum guidelines, debate styles, etc. It struck me as an unnecessary and uncivil way to divert the discussion from the comments policy to complaining about Liberals being mean to him, all while ignoring his co-ideologues that are at least as unpleasant as the most, er, strident Liberals on the board.

look 08-26-2010 02:04 AM

Re: The slippery slope has now become a cliff
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by graz (Post 176861)
So you mean that you're not accepting RC Ocean's tag of "whiner?"

Do you reject his premise or is your contention that since you've only engaged once you're exempt? Or are you gun-shy (due to quick-draw Brenda) and afraid to say that he may have a reading impediment, as your post is concise and well reasoned? He failed to make a case against it, right?

Quote:

In 2010, if you go around saying that Saddam really did have WMD's, you're lying, irrational, stupid, or perhaps some unholy combination of the three.
Concise, but not up to any Davidson debating standards, I'd think. What's the point of this quoted line? Sounds like he's copying a common verbal jousting style that's been popularized here, by some. Careful, Zeke, or your brain will freeze that way.

Don Zeko 08-26-2010 02:11 AM

Re: The slippery slope has now become a cliff
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by look (Post 176865)
Concise, but not up to any Davidson debating standards, I'd think. What's the point of this quoted line? Sounds like he's copying a common verbal jousting style that's been popularized here, by some. Careful, Zeke, or your brain will freeze that way.

The point was that hearing your interlocutor in a political argument assert that Saddam really had WMD's is like hearing your doctor proscribe birth control pills for Diabetes: it's so wrong that it casts doubt on everything else that person has said. I suppose it would have been better to have phrased that in a less aggressive way, but I was particularly irritated when I wrote it. Whatfur is routinely unable to respond, substantively or no, to what other forum-goers are actually saying and he constantly resorts to name-calling in lieu of argument. When such a poster was putting forth a position that I don't believe anyone could hold in good faith, I felt little inclination to respond in a very measured way.

graz 08-26-2010 02:14 AM

Re: The slippery slope has now become a cliff
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 176863)
... It struck me as an unnecessary and uncivil way to divert the discussion from the comments policy to complaining about Liberals being mean to him, all while ignoring his co-ideologues that are at least as unpleasant as the most, er, strident Liberals on the board.

Exactly. It could actually qualify as a fire-starter post that Brenda could rule out-of-bounds and banished -- leaving his kissing-up aside. The absurdity of the "Brenda standard" is that so many posts are inherently questionable. It's even more vague than the: I know pornography when I see, even if I can't define it rule.

How tedious this subject is becoming. But not easily ignored or insignificant.

Wonderment 08-26-2010 02:15 AM

Exile
 
Exiled posts:

A solution in search of a problem.

graz 08-26-2010 02:21 AM

Re: The slippery slope has now become a cliff
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by look (Post 176865)
Concise, but not up to any Davidson debating standards, I'd think. What's the point of this quoted line? Sounds like he's copying a common verbal jousting style that's been popularized here, by some. Careful, Zeke, or your brain will freeze that way.

This is actually what I was referring to:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 176781)
Really, Brenda? I've been more sanguine than most about the new comments policy, but I find it hard to support a standard that the above post violates. It's pretty clear that I was addressing the specific claim that Whatfur was making, and I was doing so in a far more substantive way than Whatfur addresses, well, anything. If we're really going to have a set of forum rules in which you aren't allowed to draw any conclusions about specific commenters at all, that's a serious limit on debate that far outweighs the modest increase in front-page civility it might create.

Which part of the highlighted portion isn't clear to the likes of you or RC?

look 08-26-2010 03:43 AM

Re: The slippery slope has now become a cliff
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 176866)
The point was that hearing your interlocutor in a political argument assert that Saddam really had WMD's is like hearing your doctor proscribe birth control pills for Diabetes: it's so wrong that it casts doubt on everything else that person has said. I suppose it would have been better to have phrased that in a less aggressive way, but I was particularly irritated when I wrote it. Whatfur is routinely unable to respond, substantively or no, to what other forum-goers are actually saying and he constantly resorts to name-calling in lieu of argument. When such a poster was putting forth a position that I don't believe anyone could hold in good faith, I felt little inclination to respond in a very measured way.

As an aside I want to say that over the last couple years I've found what passes for debate, in many cases, on this forum, extremely irritating. I have seen new posters get jumped on for no other reason than the attacker wants to have a temper tantrum. I've seen a new poster branded by some in our liberal majority, as being disingenuous and stupid for just wanting to converse, although from a conservative position.

This kind of thing has gone on for over two years, and to be honest, there's a lot of trollish behavior here. On a board with sensible posting customs, your statement would have been over-looked, but Brenda is trying to raise the level of awareness of the point at which things begin to escalate. I agree with rcocean that people are thinking more critically about their post content, and not just blurting out insults as they occur to them.

As far as your post to Fur, I would be very interested in hearing him back up why he believes that there was WMD in Iraq (and not just the old, inert gas last used against the Kurds). Saying he's speaking in bad faith, if he actually still believes it, is mind-reading on your part.

If Fur is routinely unable to respond, even when you pin him down with step-by-step logic, you can tell him you no longer care to engage him. Not telling you what to do, Zeke, just asking you to consider what the overall tone of this board has become.

Ultimately, to call someone stupid, or say they are lying, is bad form.

look 08-26-2010 03:53 AM

Re: The slippery slope has now become a cliff
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by graz (Post 176870)
This is actually what I was referring to:

Which part of the highlighted portion isn't clear to the likes of you or RC?

The grade school-level repartee and fits of pique had to be addressed in order to tighten up the general quality of debate.

graz 08-26-2010 10:51 AM

Re: The slippery slope has now become a cliff
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by look (Post 176876)
The grade school-level repartee and fits of pique had to be addressed in order to tighten up the general quality of debate.

And the point still remains that Zeke is making a case that there is a point of diminishing returns. And arguing about that point is tedious and well ... pointless. But alas, that's where we are again. And Bhtv ought to focus on providing better dv's (see ledocs), rather than perfecting their nanny-ing skills. After all, they have the likes of you for that.

rcocean 08-26-2010 12:55 PM

Re: The slippery slope has now become a cliff
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 176863)
I basically picked this out because it was the lowest hanging fruit in his post. My bigger problem was the way rcocean was describing liberal commenters without really differentiating between our different attitudes towards the new forum guidelines, debate styles, etc. It struck me as an unnecessary and uncivil way to divert the discussion from the comments policy to complaining about Liberals being mean to him, all while ignoring his co-ideologues that are at least as unpleasant as the most, er, strident Liberals on the board.


I didn't use the word "Liberal" and I included Whatfur first in the list of names. And your statement:

Quote:

It struck me as an unnecessary and uncivil way to divert the discussion from the comments policy to complaining about Liberals being mean to him
is incorrect *IF* you're talking about *MY* post, since I never complained about Liberals - or anyone - being mean to me. Of course, maybe I'm misreading your post and you're talking about someone else. Otherwise, good job of knocking down that strawman.

Don Zeko 08-26-2010 01:02 PM

Re: The slippery slope has now become a cliff
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rcocean (Post 176924)
I didn't use the word "Liberal" and I included Whatfur first in the list of names. And your statement:



is incorrect *IF* you're talking about *MY* post, since I never complained about Liberals - or anyone - being mean to me. Of course, maybe I'm misreading your post and you're talking about someone else. Otherwise, good job of knocking down that strawman.

Actually, you're right. I didn't read your post closely enough and missed Whatfur's name in there, then jumped to conclusions. My bad. I still disagree with your point about the new comments policy, though. The various flame wars between a few regulars are a real problem on these forums, but I don't think the current policy is a good way of dealing with it.

p.s. I suppose I should add that I've been acquiring a strange new respect for you lately, rcocean. I used to write you off as a less abusive version of whatfur, useful only for regurgitating the Republican talking point du jour, but it's been increasingly clear lately that that was unfair and inaccurate. Sorry again.

Brenda 08-26-2010 01:31 PM

Re: The slippery slope has now become a cliff
 
I'm starting to lurve this thread.

handle 08-26-2010 03:27 PM

Re: The slippery slope has now become a cliff
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by look (Post 176875)
As an aside I want to say that over the last couple years I've found what passes for debate, in many cases, on this forum, extremely irritating. I have seen new posters get jumped on for no other reason than the attacker wants to have a temper tantrum. I've seen a new poster branded by some in our liberal majority, as being disingenuous and stupid for just wanting to converse, although from a conservative position.

This kind of thing has gone on for over two years, and to be honest, there's a lot of trollish behavior here. On a board with sensible posting customs, your statement would have been over-looked, but Brenda is trying to raise the level of awareness of the point at which things begin to escalate. I agree with rcocean that people are thinking more critically about their post content, and not just blurting out insults as they occur to them.

As far as your post to Fur, I would be very interested in hearing him back up why he believes that there was WMD in Iraq (and not just the old, inert gas last used against the Kurds). Saying he's speaking in bad faith, if he actually still believes it, is mind-reading on your part.

If Fur is routinely unable to respond, even when you pin him down with step-by-step logic, you can tell him you no longer care to engage him. Not telling you what to do, Zeke, just asking you to consider what the overall tone of this board has become.

Ultimately, to call someone stupid, or say they are lying, is bad form.

Why does it never occur to people with far left or right tendencies, that their point of view just might not hold up to scrutiny in an open forum? We've had 9/11 truthers rear their heads here, and they got the same treatment as the fox news / talk radio parrots.
Yes, I'm a jerk, I get it (unlike many). But I am not going to argue that I, and those who share my point of view, have absolutely essential things to offer, and are being victimized, and chased away by the bad "majority' bullies. Maybe if you get a lot of negative feedback, or are exposed as, say, less than factual, you could reconsider your views, or at least how you present them. When someone projects the attitude that they can't be wrong, they are going to attract all kinds of resistance, and have positioned themselves as prime targets for snark and ridicule. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying it is.

Added: And I am perfectly fine with getting banned if I am seen as a serious problem, because I don't consider my cause to be sacrosanct.

handle 08-26-2010 03:57 PM

Re: The slippery slope has now become a cliff
 
Oh and BTW look, I consider "irritation" to be mainly an old white guy disease, (apologies if you aren't one of us) we are used to getting our way and have been spoiled rotten. We see our privilege eroding and can't help but ruin our own lives over it. I think other demographics have been toughened by facing adversity, and as a result will be rewarded by living longer lives on average.
But I could be totally wrong, and not feel threatened, because I am trying to evolve.
Please note that I said trying.

look 08-26-2010 07:03 PM

Re: The slippery slope has now become a cliff
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by graz (Post 176907)
And the point still remains that Zeke is making a case that there is a point of diminishing returns. And arguing about that point is tedious and well ... pointless. But alas, that's where we are again. And Bhtv ought to focus on providing better dv's (see ledocs), rather than perfecting their nanny-ing skills. After all, they have the likes of you for that.

And the point still remains that this place was out of control, with you-know-who and you-know-who exchanging tediously banal insults, with you-know-who and you-know-who following you-know-who around like a couple of goofs. Ya know?

look 08-26-2010 07:46 PM

Re: The slippery slope has now become a cliff
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by handle (Post 176951)
Why does it never occur to people with far left or right tendencies, that their point of view just might not hold up to scrutiny in an open forum? We've had 9/11 truthers rear their heads here, and they got the same treatment as the fox news / talk radio parrots.

That's why I said this to Zeke:
Quote:

If Fur is routinely unable to respond, even when you pin him down with step-by-step logic, you can tell him you no longer care to engage him.
It's called ignoring someone you have concluded to be stupid, lying, acting in bad faith, etc. Engaging the person you see as incorrigible is to exacerbate the problem.
Quote:

Yes, I'm a jerk, I get it (unlike many).
I think you're a nice guy who is pursuing a bad strategy.
Quote:

But I am not going to argue that I, and those who share my point of view, have absolutely essential things to offer, and are being victimized, and chased away by the bad "majority' bullies. Maybe if you get a lot of negative feedback, or are exposed as, say, less than factual, you could reconsider your views, or at least how you present them. When someone projects the attitude that they can't be wrong, they are going to attract all kinds of resistance, and have positioned themselves as prime targets for snark and ridicule. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying it is.
Sorry, but there has been way too much glee on both sides in the ongoing Saga of Brendan and Fur.

As far as people being chased away, we've lost a lot of quality posters who were put off by the over-bearing partisanship of some here.

rcocean 08-26-2010 07:48 PM

Re: The slippery slope has now become a cliff
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by look (Post 176983)
And the point still remains that this place was out of control, with you-know-who and you-know-who exchanging tediously banal insults, with you-know-who and you-know-who following you-know-who around like a couple of goofs. Ya know?

Well that's why you-know-who is on this thread complaining about you-know-what. I'll say this about BJ Keefe, he didn't like the comment policy and left. No bitching and no moaning. Its hard not to like that.

look 08-26-2010 08:00 PM

Re: The slippery slope has now become a cliff
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rcocean (Post 176987)
Well that's why you-know-who is on this thread complaining about you-know-what. I'll say this about BJ Keefe, he didn't like the comment policy and left. No bitching and no moaning. Its hard not to like that.

Agreed.

handle 08-26-2010 08:37 PM

Re: The slippery slope has now become a cliff
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by look (Post 176986)
That's why I said this to Zeke: It's called ignoring someone you have concluded to be stupid, lying, acting in bad faith, etc. Engaging the person you see as incorrigible is to exacerbate the problem.

I think you're a nice guy who is pursuing a bad strategy.Sorry, but there has been way too much glee on both sides in the ongoing Saga of Brendan and Fur.

As far as people being chased away, we've lost a lot of quality posters who were put off by the over-bearing partisanship of some here.

Thanks for your input.
We have already disagreed on point 1, so I'll try to avoid redundancy.
Agree on points 2, and 3, but I will add that we've lost a lot of creeps here too by not tolerating them, I guess I've been a little blind to the collateral damage.
I have bolded where you state the very reason I tend to cross the lines with some posters. I will not argue that it's a great strategy, I just think it brings out the true colors (mine included) for all (but them apparently) to see. Sorry if you find this offensive or irritating.
I myself am trying to pardon the offenses, and transcend the irritation... let you know how it works out... cheers.

look 08-26-2010 08:41 PM

Re: The slippery slope has now become a cliff
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by handle (Post 176990)
Thanks for your input.
We have already disagreed on point 1, so I'll try to avoid redundancy.
Agree on points 2, and 3, but I will add that we've lost a lot of creeps here too by not tolerating them, I guess I've been a little blind to the collateral damage.
I have bolded where you state the very reason I tend to cross the lines with some posters. I will not argue that it's a great strategy, I just think it brings out the true colors (mine included) for all (but them apparently) to see. Sorry if you find this offensive or irritating. I myself am trying to pardon the offenses, and transcend the irritation... let you know how it works out... cheers.

Apology accepted.
;)
Cheers.


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