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-   -   Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead) (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?t=7189)

Wonderment 11-24-2011 01:14 AM

Re: The deWaltMearsheiming of Loury
 
Quote:

Honestly, I'm just trying to understand the alleged complaint, because I didn't think that Glen was expressing an antisemitic view in his comment.
This is how you end up down the rabbit hole when following the most humdrum and banal of Zionist propaganda: Glenn Loury is an anti-Semite (which is a patently crazy idea and a pretty vile insinuation) or he's a dupe of leftist Arab terrorists (just as fucking crazy but merely insulting rather than vile).

bkjazfan 11-24-2011 09:38 AM

Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Globalcop (Post 232603)
"Where did you serve?" What does that mean? No citizen is entitled to an opinion on foreign affairs unless they spent a few years playing army?

If you can't do any better than that, I give it to Walter by default. By the way.

It's as simple as that : "a few years playing army." Been to VA hospital recently? Yeh, I would like it if some of these shills for the military industrial complex, preaching American Imperialism living their good lives in the U.S. had some skin in the game. At a minimum I would expect Perl, Adelman, Wolfowitz, and Mead to at least been in the reserves for six months active duty or something along those lines. At maximum put their college degrees to work, become an officer, and command a combat infantry company.

Being a veteran I served 6 years as an infantryman during the Vietnam War.

opposable_crumbs 11-24-2011 12:32 PM

Re: It's not the Jews, but it is some Jews.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator (Post 232568)
Yeah, its crazy that the Jews lobbying for their own state, in the wake of the Holocaust, held a lot of political potency. Sounds like a conspiracy.

The whole point was that the Jews weren't lobbying for a state, but some jews where. They managed to wield enormous political influence, which ended up with the creation of Israel.

We see the same with AIPAC today, and many influential Jews within the political and media establishment. AIPAC drafts the talking points that congress parrots, the same AIPAC, which in a previous incarnation, fell foul of FARA, a ruling which was later overturned.

I think it's silly to dismiss both the political and cultural influence of a group of motivated Jews with regards to Israel, which the wider population takes it's ques.

opposable_crumbs 11-24-2011 12:46 PM

Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ledocs (Post 232604)
So I have read Mead's review now, and I don't have any major problems with it. Mead says that Walt/Mearsheimer could have easily avoided a lot of the charges of anti-Semitism to which they became subject if they had been more careful in their rhetoric, but he gives no examples of the offending rhetoric or of how they could have made their points differently.

I tried and failed, it kept dancing around charges of anti-semitism without having the guts to commit or to quote.

opposable_crumbs 11-24-2011 12:55 PM

Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cain (Post 232584)

As far as I'm concerned the reason why Americans overwhelmingly identify with Jews is rather simple: in this disagreement, Jews are the white people.

Those noble colonizers -- I mean, settlers -- from Europe... the people who nobly created government subsidized segregated housing -- I mean, settlements... um, that's our team: Holocaust, Holocaust, Holocaust!

I think US public support is a case of supporting the underdog, the survivors of the Holocaust, the island democracy in the desert etc, rather than their apparent closeness to the 'master race' or white people. I would love to see how the defense of South Africa was articulated to the American people during the 80s for comparison.

In your namesake's case though, the fact that them might have a brown name though is an increasing concern, and here race might be a factor.

Quote:

Herman Cain Was Elated When He Learned That His Muslim-Sounding Doctor Wasn’t Muslim
http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2011/11...im-doctor.html

apple 11-24-2011 01:08 PM

Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by opposable_crumbs (Post 232625)
In your namesake's case though, the fact that them might have a brown name though is an increasing concern, and here race might be a factor.

Herman Cain hates colored people. Also, the fact that the issue was religion, not the name or skin color, proves that race was a factor.

apple 11-24-2011 01:21 PM

Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cain (Post 232597)
Not Americans -- otherwise they would be concerned about democracy, freedom and human rights for Palestinians. Which they're not.

The Arabs you call Palestinians are their own worst enemies in this regard. Democracy, freedom and human rights are not lacking in the West Bank and Gaza because of Israel, but because of the character of the Arabs who live there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cain (Post 232597)
If we were on their side, they would not be blowing themselves up. They would commit atrocities using American arms.

And Israelis would be blowing up women and children? You actually believe that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cain (Post 232597)
Your stupidity is astonishing.

Wait, you actually think that I'm the stupid one here? Now that's astonishing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cain (Post 232597)
Americans readily identify with people blown up in a pizzeria, an image seared into the mind of the public even though the atrocity occurred over 20 years ago.

You talk like that's the only act of butchery committed by the Arab Muslims living in the West Bank and Gaza.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cain (Post 232597)
Never mind Palestinians experienced far greater oppression, shed more blood

It's true that the 'Palestinians' have shed more blood than the one example you mentioned. The followers of the beautiful religion of peace called Islam have made a trade out of viciously butchering women and children - treading in the mass murdering path paved by their genocidal prophet (Megan's Law be upon him).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cain (Post 232597)
But yeah, if Israelis start slaughtering Andersons and Magnussons, I'm sure public opinion would shift. A body bag with one Rachel Corrie is worth dozens of Abdullahs.

Rachel Corrie? Isn't that the girl who threw herself in front of an Israeli bulldozer?

http://www.cfpeople.org/military/092...flagburner.jpg

Here's Saint Pancake wearing a headscarf, burning an American flag with an expression of pure love on her face.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cain (Post 232597)
But no, stick to your theory about how they support Israel because their computer has a Pentium processor. Thanks for reminding me why I don't post here.

One of the reasons I support Israel, is because Israel actually contributed to civilization. The most prominent example is the Core processor. There are only 15 million Jews, and how many technological advancements have been made by these Jews? On the other hand, any innovations by your Arab Muslim friends seem to involve new, innovative ways of butchering women and children.

Ocean 11-24-2011 01:54 PM

Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)
 
Perhaps instead of putting this in terms of competing which factors favored Americans protecting Jews, we could come up with a list of such factors:

1. Demonize the Nazis ---> protect the Jews.

2. Global Christian guilt for past rejection of Jews ---> protect the Jews

3. Plant an allied stronghold in Middle East ---> protect the Jews

4. Flow of Jewish capital to America ---> protect the Jews.

And so on. I can imagine there are many more, some more altruistic than others, but all add up.

grits-n-gravy 11-24-2011 02:04 PM

Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cain (Post 232584)
. . .

As far as I'm concerned the reason why Americans overwhelmingly identify with Jews is rather simple: in this disagreement, Jews are the white people.

Those noble colonizers -- I mean, settlers -- from Europe... the people who nobly created government subsidized segregated housing -- I mean, settlements... um, that's our team: Holocaust, Holocaust, Holocaust!

I think this is the elephant in the room: white supremacy. Ironic how American support for Israel against its own national interests can be attributed to a "complex set of factors" with little or no elaboration yet those who, albeit mistakenly, believe American Jews are the driving force behind US Foreign Policy toward the Israel-Palestinian conflict are motivated by anti-semitism.

harkin 11-24-2011 03:25 PM

Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 232595)
Always. On the other hand, who gives a damn about democracy, freedom, human rights? We'd be on the side of the people who blow up women and children, if it were not for the color of their skin.

Israel-haters should try to get a country with pale-skinned people to declare war on Israel. Perhaps Sweden. Then Israel-supporters will instantly switch sides and support Sweden. After all, skin color is all that matters.


It's also why conservatives deplore Obama's policies and deplore Herman Cain and Clarence Thomas....oh wait.......

The absolute cowardice and dishonesty of blaming racism for US support of Israel is beneath these boards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean
Especially considering that he may have been in a submarine.

I kept thinking about the soundtrack to Thunderball when the underwater effect cropped up.

opposable_crumbs 11-24-2011 03:33 PM

Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by harkin (Post 232632)

The absolute cowardice and dishonesty of blaming racism for US support of Israel is beneath these boards.


I kept thinking about the soundtrack to Thunderball when the underwater effect cropped up.

It would be silly to dismiss racism as a factor in both support and opposition to Israel.

Cain 11-24-2011 03:53 PM

Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 232628)
The Arabs you call Palestinians...

OK, crackpot, I think I see where you're coming from. Congratulations on scamming Shady Acres into allowing you Internet Access.

And have a Happy Thanksgiving.

db63 11-24-2011 03:58 PM

Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)
 
Please set up another conversation where Loury and Mead can just talk about Israel.

rcocean 11-24-2011 04:03 PM

Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cain (Post 232584)
The fact Loury begins by saying he's going to play Devil's Advocate and then Mead gets all worked up so as to say "I'm not going to say that's anti-Semitic but..." should give us pause (as well as the flash of fear in Loury's eyes).

Well, that's how you play the Political game in 21st Century America. The first one to call "racism" or "antisemitism" wins. I'm sure if Meade were to discuss Black issues in a way Glenn didn't like the "racism card" would've been thrown and its Meade who would've shown a "flash of fear".

Frankly, if people are stupid enough to be buffaloed in this way (as Americans have been for the past 50 years...or maybe always) - they get what they deserve. I can't blame AIPAC, the Black Caucus or anyone else from playing the victim or the "you're a racist/bigot/homophobe/sexist" card when morons think that's the worst thing in the world ever, ever. Honestly, I think some people would literally kill themselves rather than be labeled as (fill in the blank).

apple 11-24-2011 04:34 PM

Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)
 
Can you show me when AIPAC (incorrectly) labeled people as anti-Semitic? Thanks.

apple 11-24-2011 04:35 PM

Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cain (Post 232634)
OK, crackpot, I think I see where you're coming from. Congratulations on scamming Shady Acres into allowing you Internet Access.

And have a Happy Thanksgiving.

I see that you are incapable of producing any sort of rebuttal. Frankly, silence is superior to the kind of garbage you were producing earlier. In any case, I accept your surrender.

apple 11-24-2011 04:40 PM

Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by opposable_crumbs (Post 232633)
It would be silly to dismiss racism as a factor in both support and opposition to Israel.

I doubt that racism is the main cause of either opposition to or support for Israel, which is what Cain claimed. Or, more specifically, skin color, as if there's much of a difference between the skin colors of Israelis and Arabs.

It's interesting, because anti-Israel folks generally claim to be the victim of this sort of slander: saying that supporters of Israel say that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitism.

thouartgob 11-24-2011 06:20 PM

Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 232637)
Can you show me when AIPAC (incorrectly) labeled people as anti-Semitic? Thanks.

These anti-Semitic er... jews have something to say on the subject

http://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/blog/...sraelpalestine

Quote:

The Israel lobby, spearheaded by AIPAC, conflates legitimate criticism of Israel's human rights violations with anti-semitism and American Jews are seeking to highlight the difference by participating in this alternative event.
2nd non Wikipedia result that showed on up on google (aipac compared jews israel anti semitic ; as keywords ) I'm sure there are more anti-semetic jews out there so be on guard.

Happy Thanksgiving.

thouartgob 11-24-2011 06:34 PM

Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cain (Post 232634)
OK, crackpot, I think I see where you're coming from. Congratulations on scamming Shady Acres into allowing you Internet Access.

And have a Happy Thanksgiving.

One of the great things about apple is how easy to guess what his posts will be. A quick survey of his posts would find that his distaste of muslims is quite evident so whatever the question the answer is going to involve muslims are bad, many times muslims are nazis is the answer. Sometimes like this recent post arabs are "backward sandy asses":

Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 230469)
Wow, if you wage wars of aggression on an innocent country three times and get your backward, sandy ass handed to you

So what I do to save time is replace most of a post involving the middle east in an apple reply with "Backward Sandy Ass Nazis Hate Israel" and "if you complain about Israel you are in league with Backward Sandy Ass Nazis". Now I've become more efficient and just say Sand Nazis. Makes reading posts way easier. :)

In case you are anti-Semitic though I regret helping you in any way to read the comment section more efficiently.

Happy Thanksgiving.

opposable_crumbs 11-24-2011 09:09 PM

Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by db63 (Post 232635)
Please set up another conversation where Loury and Mead can just talk about Israel.

Loury mentioned wanting to talk about Israel many moons ago, I think during the flotilla raid. I salute his bravery on this, as certainly in America, it's a perilous to discuss such an issue without labels being applied.

eeeeeeeli 11-25-2011 10:11 AM

Re: It's not the Jews, but it is some Jews.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator (Post 232579)
In other words, "Gays need to ally to face the real enemy, the opponents of gay marriage in the United States. The guys who think we're abominations who should be annihilated are natural allies in this quest."

I agree. They should be allying with Republicans instead.

eeeeeeeli 11-25-2011 10:21 AM

Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BornAgainDemocrat (Post 232566)
Or when he imagines that teaching skills to the unskilled is the key to solving the problem of automation. (Shorter work weeks are and always have been the only way to share the fruits of rising labor productivity. They don't call it labor saving technology for nothing.)

But how are shortened work weeks sharing the fruits? Certainly not with the employees - they would simply get less hours, likely disqualifying them from medical insurance.

Much of the savings has likely been passed on to the consumer. Yet has this savings made up for the lack of rising wages? I wonder to what extent rising inequality and profits at the top are a direct result of the fruits of increased productivity going into the pockets of the owners of capital, and not "trickling down".

As for policy that attempts to address this, high school graduates need to go into affordable college and training programs, right? The route from high school to the factory is largely gone. This is to say nothing of retraining older workers.

stephanie 11-25-2011 11:28 AM

Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eeeeeeeli (Post 232668)
But how are shortened work weeks sharing the fruits? Certainly not with the employees - they would simply get less hours, likely disqualifying them from medical insurance.

He's talking about the length of the work week that counts as fulltime.

apple 11-25-2011 04:36 PM

Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)
 
Yes, and you still didn't show where AIPAC actually unjustly accused someone of anti-Semitism, you merely posted an accusation made by someone.

Maybe that's the same thing in your mind. That would explain a lot.

apple 11-25-2011 04:44 PM

Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thouartgob (Post 232644)
A quick survey of his posts would find that his distaste of muslims is quite evident

Only a fellow traveler like yourself would conflate criticism of Islam with distaste "of [sic] muslims [sic]", probably because you can't imagine why someone would be opposed to the disgusting teachings of Islam.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thouartgob (Post 232644)
Sometimes like this recent post arabs are "backward sandy asses":

It's a fact that the "arab" [sic] world is backward, intellectually, culturally, technologically, scientifically, and morally, compared to Israel, as well as the Western world. And they live in the midst of sand. Also a fact. These facts may be unwelcome to you, but they are facts nonetheless. So I don't think there's really a reason to be overly kind to people who start three wars of aggression against a tiny state.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thouartgob (Post 232644)
So what I do to save time is replace most of a post involving the middle east in an apple reply with "Backward Sandy Ass Nazis Hate Israel" and "if you complain about Israel you are in league with Backward Sandy Ass Nazis".

I suggest that you invest some of that time in finding the Shift and comma-buttons on your keyboard, to make your vitriolic screeds more readable.

apple 11-25-2011 04:45 PM

Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by opposable_crumbs (Post 232651)
Loury mentioned wanting to talk about Israel many moons ago, I think during the flotilla raid. I salute his bravery on this, as certainly in America, it's a perilous to discuss such an issue without labels being applied.

Good. If you're truly upset that people can't discuss this issue without label being applied, you can start by condemning Cain for the following statement: "As far as I'm concerned the reason why Americans overwhelmingly identify with Jews is rather simple: in this disagreement, Jews are the white people."

By the way, I also dislike it when people call any Israel critic or hater an anti-Semite, even though it's not nearly as common as Israel-haters like to suggest. In fact, it's extremely rare.

stephanie 11-25-2011 06:11 PM

Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 232577)
Interesting conversation. But someone will have to explain what this antisemitism-a-la-Mead is about. Even if the estimation that Jewish American influence foreign affairs heavily isn't accurate, why would that be construed as antisemitism? I couldn't connect the dots.

I think its the context. The long history of claims that small cabals of Jews disproportionately control things, from the financial world to Hollywood to US foreign policy. It's also sometimes raised to suggest that the Jews in question are not primarily loyal to the US, but to Israel, especially when we don't hear the same kinds of talk about the various other ethnic or religious groups in the US who maintain some feeling of connection and involvement in the political events in their own places of origin, even though that is also common and not inconsistent with loyalty to the US, of course.

More importantly, the claim that it's about Jewish influence is simply sufficiently improbable given numbers that insistence on that framing raises the hackles of many. I didn't think Walter was harsh on Glenn or confrontational about Glenn's repetition of the framing -- he seemed to understand that there could be an honest mistake in seeing that explanation as the right one in Glenn's case -- and Glenn seemed open to the idea that his assumption that that was the explanation was not correct. I'm basically sick of this topic given its prevalence here lately, but I would be interested in a more lengthy discussion between the two on it if they want to pursue it.

On the improbability, it's worth noting that -- as Walter and many others have pointed out -- the "Israel Lobby" as defined by Walt & Mearshimer includes Jewish groups of a variety of different views and non-Jewish groups and disclaims being a "Jewish lobby." AIPAC has influence like many other PACs, disproportionate to the adherence to its views of the population as a whole simply because most people don't care and there's no similarly strong opposing PAC. One need not assume some huge Jewish influence that makes no sense given the size and voting patterns of Jews in the US. Well beyond AIPAC is, as Walter mentioned, the general sympathy of the majority of Americans who care about the issue for Israel, and probably -- because their knowledge of the issues are often less deep -- such Gentile sympathizers are likely to be more one-sided in their views than the average American Jew and perhaps even more so than the average AIPAC supporter.

I've said this before, but I think the current American support has much more to do with general attitudes toward the Middle East (genuine foreign policy related ones, not the race-based ones, as I don't think Americans in general are as likely to see the conflict as a race-based one as some leftwingers like to frame it), the sympathies towards Israel built up during the period when it's strength was less obvious, a reaction to terrorism as a means, and -- especially post-9/11 -- an identification with Israel related to us seeing ourselves as victims of terrorism and on Israel's side in the WoT and related to us being a militarily strong power (and possibly us being immigrants to and settlers on our own land in the past, even if we don't defend all aspects of that). I think there's also (and much more now than at times in the past) some degree of Christian Zionism and simply sympathy through familiarity with Israel in the Bible, although I'm not sure how strong that is. I suspect much stronger than I am willing to see, as it's not present in my environment, and the anecdote re Palin and comments by various Republican presidential candidates like Perry reflect that.

Ocean 11-25-2011 06:25 PM

Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)
 
Okay, I'll take it that it is a misperception of anti-Semitism based on associating the view that there may be Jewish political groups that influence US foreign policy with some other heavy duty conspiracy theory.

I don't see the racist piece associated with favoring one side or the other. I don't know enough about the topic to have a definitive opinion, but I just have never perceived it as being essentially about race.

Thank you for providing background and context.

stephanie 11-25-2011 06:25 PM

Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 232602)
What Zionist activists (Jew and Gentile) have achieved in the USA over the past few decades is to equate criticism of Israel with criticism of Jews, so that it is unforgivably politically incorrect to utter a word of criticism of Israel, lest you be called a Jew hater. Mead seems to be zealously enforcing this political correctness.

I don't think this is a fair reflection of the diavlog at all. Walter did not call Glenn an anti-semite, and he limited his use of the term to those who insisted that US policy was the reflection of "Jewish" influence, despite knowing better.

According to Walter -- part of his criticism of W&M for having a muddled analysis, which they did -- is that "the Israel Lobby" lumps together a variety of pro Israel and Jewish groups concerned with Israel, including those who are critical of Israel and US policy thereto from the left. Given this, I think the idea that Walter would call anyone who criticizes Israel anti Jewish is clearly false. (And obviously one shouldn't. It's a way of stifling debate. But that's not what was going on in the diavlog and not what I believe would go on if they had a more in-depth discussion that ranged beyond what they got to.)

stephanie 11-25-2011 06:40 PM

Re: Why Don't we just tax stupidity?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rcocean (Post 232606)
Replace the payroll tax with a "Carbon Tax"! Okey dokey.

My initial reaction is the same as yours, but I found the SocSec discussion interesting and wished that it was in more depth. I can't see how you wouldn't need a carbon tax that is far too large to make this reasonable, but I'd like to see the numbers from those who think it's plausible. It would certainly make the tax system more progressive and cut taxes dramatically for large percentage of taxpayers -- such that I'd assume it would open the door to tax reform across the board.

On the other hand, as long as we are talking about transparency, I don't think supporters of SocSec or the current structure are as fearful (or at least should be as fearful) of it as was suggested. I'd like to see the budget numbers separating out SocSec and Medicare and comparing them with payroll taxes plus the Medicare payments and the rest of the budget with everything else. Given that the right these days likes to talk about the progressivity of taxes without including FICA and the percentage of people who don't pay federal income taxes (excluding FICA), let's break out FICA and SocSec/Medicare in the overall analysis of the budget shortfalls. It would give us that transparency and let the country discuss the issue.

Quote:

And no, more SS spending doesn't mean we need to spend less on everything else. The alternative is to raise the payroll cap on SS wages, currently at approximately $100,000 - that will solve the entire "SS Crisis".
I agree with this.

Quote:

I assume Meade is a well-to-do Academic with a great pension who doesn't need SS, hence his blase attitude that spending money on SS benefits is a "bad thing".
Well, he wants to means test, which would seem to suggest that spending for people who need it isn't bad, spending for people with "a great pension" perhaps is. The problem I see with means testing -- apart from the attack on the idea that its a program for everyone -- is simply incentives. I mean, I think pensions of the type you are referring to are mostly going away (and already have for most), so if it encourages that not such a big deal. But doesn't it discourage savings? Certainly if people buy the idea that income taxes discourage earning. I'd want to understand better how the plan would be structured to avoid this, at least.

rcocean 11-25-2011 08:15 PM

Re: Why Don't we just tax stupidity?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanie (Post 232691)
On the other hand, as long as we are talking about transparency, I don't think supporters of SocSec or the current structure are as fearful (or at least should be as fearful) of it as was suggested. I'd like to see the budget numbers separating out SocSec and Medicare and comparing them with payroll taxes plus the Medicare payments and the rest of the budget with everything else. Given that the right these days likes to talk about the progressivity of taxes without including FICA and the percentage of people who don't pay federal income taxes (excluding FICA), let's break out FICA and SocSec/Medicare in the overall analysis of the budget shortfalls. It would give us that transparency and let the country discuss the issue.

I agree except why bring Medicare into it? There's no reason to yoke Medicare and SS together. They only have one thing in common, they benefit old people.

Those who complain about 50% not paying taxes simply ignore that Joe Six pack who makes 50K a year pays 7.5% of his salary for SS. Meanwhile, Joe CEO who makes 750K a year pays 1% of his salary for SS. So if you do the math it looks like this:

50K Joe Six Pack:
- SS rate 7.5% + Income tax rate of 20% = Total tax rate of 27.5%

750K Joe CEO:
-SS rate 1% + Income Tax rate of 35% = Total tax rate of 36%

Quote:

Well, he wants to means test, which would seem to suggest that spending for people who need it isn't bad, spending for people with "a great pension" perhaps is. The problem I see with means testing -- apart from the attack on the idea that its a program for everyone -- is simply incentives. I mean, I think pensions of the type you are referring to are mostly going away (and already have for most), so if it encourages that not such a big deal. But doesn't it discourage savings? Certainly if people buy the idea that income taxes discourage earning. I'd want to understand better how the plan would be structured to avoid this, at least.
I don't understand the whole "Mean testing" for SS. Just make SS fully taxable and there's your "Means Test" right there. Of course, that's assuming you've kept the progressive income tax.

Wonderment 11-25-2011 08:47 PM

Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)
 
Quote:

I don't think this is a fair reflection of the diavlog at all. Walter did not call Glenn an anti-semite, and he limited his use of the term to those who insisted that US policy was the reflection of "Jewish" influence, despite knowing better.
I disagree. I thought Walter was intimidating and stifling critics of Zionism by holding the anti-Semite sword over anyone's head (including potentially Glenn's) who might suggest that pro-Zionist Jews disproportionately influence US foreign policy.

I would love to see the numbers on how many JEWS believe we exert disproportionate-to-demographics influence on US Israeli policy. I'm betting it's a majority. If I'm right, a majority of US Jews are anti-Semites, according to Walter.

I think it's indisputable that people who run for Congress and the Presidency are scared of AIPAC and bend over backwards to show how pro-Israel they are. This is similar to what Republicans have to do with religious right anti-abortion groups, gun groups and anti-Castro groups, except in the case of Israel it's bi-partisan. There's a kind of "arms race" between the two parties to out-do each other on allegiance to Israel. That's why both parties end up sounding considerably farther right on Israel than the Israeli Jewish center.

Walter's point -- that it's not ONLY Jewish Zionist groups that exercise this pro-Israel clout -- is of course true, but that doesn't negate AIPAC's excessive influence.

T.G.G.P 11-25-2011 10:43 PM

Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)
 
I often see Mead linked by Ilkka Kokkarinen, but I've never read anything worthwhile from him. I also sometimes read Daniel Larison pointing out errors. This diavlog has Loury, so my expectations are higher and the beginning isn't disappointing. I find his reference to the Great Depression as an event that shook Americans out of isolationism strange, the "America First" group was strong enough before Pearl Harbor. Steve Walt (whose book with Mearsheimer is criticized by Mead) makes the realist case for our recent move in east asia. I'm more of a non-interventionist since I don't trust the government to properly implement realism, but I can respect that variety of argument.

I agree with Mead on "shifting" taxes but I found it odd he said "payroll tax", so does that not include the income tax?

I tend to disagree with H.S, particularly on this issue, but I still recommend checking out his response to Bryan Caplan's exposure of the lack of meritocracy in the elite school/firm nexus.

A "psychologically diverse" firm would be one that contains more dumb people. As Roman Hruska pointed out, the mediocre often fail to be represented.

I will disagree with Mead that it's an important subject. There are basically no natural resources in that area, I don't think the population levels are terribly large (less certain about that) and it doesn't have some geographically strategic position. We could just ignore it and be fine.

Parallax 11-26-2011 04:51 AM

Best Diavlog Ever?
 
Maybe I am biased b/c I agree with so many of Mr. Mead's points but I thought this was one of the best diavlogs in a very long time. The last one on this level was between Frum (who sadly has not been around here lately) and Bob.

1. I think by now it should be obvious that American declinism is fad that will be over as soon as US economy returns to full employment. Of the 3 major competitors for US's place as the world's sole super power one imploded in the 90s (Japan), the second will soon cease to exist (EU) and the last one will be in very serious trouble when it experiences its first patch of slow growth (China).

2. Obama's foreign policy has been stellar: Al Qaeda's utter defeat, isolation of Iran, the war in Libya, the less reported victory in Georgia and now the Asian triumph.

3. Substituting FICA taxes with a Carbon tax would do so much good for US economy right now it hurts every time I think about it and realize it won't happen anytime soon.

4. The point about Ivy league schools producing highly intelligent and highly conformist graduates was something I had never considered before yet is such a intelligent and important point that I think we should pay more attention to it. It definitely deserves a more thorough exposition and examination.

5. Instead of giving examples from finance Glen could have named Steve Jobs, Bill Gates and Larry Ellison. None of them finished college but they transformed America and arguably the world.

6. The only problem I had with Mr. Mead was his suggestion of a national exam like France's bac. While I understand where the idea comes from I am very skeptical. For one thing whoever administers this exam will have a great deal of power and so there will be great deal of fight on who gets to make the exam. And as one might expect with such a monopoly the chances of corruption are very high. Moreover I am not sure I want a single exam decide a person's life outcome (I guess this would be easier to overcome if the exam was held very often like every month or so). Given all this there are working examples of such an approach but they are used by graduate schools rather than employers: GRE, GMAT & MCAT.

stephanie 11-26-2011 09:58 AM

Re: Why Don't we just tax stupidity?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rcocean (Post 232695)
I agree except why bring Medicare into it? There's no reason to yoke Medicare and SS together. They only have one thing in common, they benefit old people.

FICA is why. Although I'm not saying yoke them together -- I agree with you on that. I think both should be broken out as much as possible.

Quote:

Those who complain about 50% not paying taxes simply ignore that Joe Six pack who makes 50K a year pays 7.5% of his salary for SS. Meanwhile, Joe CEO who makes 750K a year pays 1% of his salary for SS.
Right. And a lot of the people influenced by this, it seems to me, aren't so much ignoring it as not understanding that the numbers they are given leave out the primary federal taxes many Americans pay. Indeed, I suspect a lot of people who buy into the stats and get outraged would be surprised to see how little they pay in the only tax that some say count. This is an area where I'd love more transparency. If certain members of the right want to complain about 47% of the population not contributing, let's be specific about who is being talked about, as I'm certain its many of the people they are cultivating as supporters.

stephanie 11-26-2011 10:00 AM

Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 232697)
I would love to see the numbers on how many JEWS believe we exert disproportionate-to-demographics influence on US Israeli policy. I'm betting it's a majority. If I'm right, a majority of US Jews are anti-Semites, according to Walter.

Well, again, we disagree on what Walter said, and I think you are being quite unfair.

If someone said AIPAC, like other PACs, has a disproportionate influence on US policy, I don't think Walter would have objected. Nor would I, although I'd add that focusing on AIPAC alone these days seems to miss bigger factors.

Saying our Israel policy is the result of the disproportionate influence of Jews, without more, and without acknowledging the diversity of opinion among Jews, the non-Jewish pressure groups and non-Jewish US opinion that is relevant, and -- especially -- that what is being talked about is not something sketchy and questionable, but the normal effect when there's a strong opinion group (Jewish and not) on one side and much less of one on the other, the normal effect with PACs, for example, are the problem. Not saying "AIPAC has influence."

Walter debunked a claim Glenn made carelessly and didn't call him an anti-semite. His initial review of W&M criticized (properly, IMO) the sloppiness with which they defined the "Israel Lobby" (which was not a "Jewish lobby," but lumped too much dissimilar together) and the lack of analysis as to how it worked and led to the results being criticized. That they did not consider the realpolitick and other Cold War related reasons for US policy historically, for example.

And I think the idea that its about Jewish influence suggests that non-Jews who have views on Israel for a variety of reasons are what? just pawns of AIPAC? Trying to describe US policy in terms of Jewish influence alone, as if that could explain the enormous weirdness of certain aspects of US treatment just seems to be insisting upon a bad analysis, at the least. When this framework is insisted upon in a particular way, against the evidence and using certain language, I think there's something more going on. It shouldn't be used to silence legitimate criticism, but that wasn't what Walter was doing (as perhaps a longer discussion would demonstrate). He did not suggest that criticizing Israel was wrong.

stephanie 11-26-2011 10:08 AM

Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by T.G.G.P (Post 232698)
I agree with Mead on "shifting" taxes but I found it odd he said "payroll tax", so does that not include the income tax?

Why odd?

The payroll tax=FICA. Specifically, the tax that pays for SocSec and Medicare. It's a flat 7.5% paid by employees on the first $107,000 of income (I think -- I'd have to confirm the current cap), plus an identical amount paid by employers. When people talk about the federal income tax (as in the claims that 47% of Americans don't pay it), payroll taxes are generally excluded. When they are included, our tax system looks a lot less progressive.

thouartgob 11-26-2011 10:28 AM

Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 232681)
Yes, and you still didn't show where AIPAC actually unjustly accused someone of anti-Semitism, you merely posted an accusation made by someone.

Maybe that's the same thing in your mind. That would explain a lot.

Before I burn the 10s of calories needed to tighten a google search on the subject I just want to know "what is in it for me" for doing such a lot of work. What would you consider "unjustly accused of antisemitism" ? Somebody who makes any critical remarks about how Israel conducts itself or maybe even helping an elderly muslim/nazi across the street ?? :)

Also charges made my previous members of AIPAC or present members or only from a spokesman ? These are parameters that have to be taken into account given the loss of time and energy on my part in trying to convince you that someone, who doesn't believe what you believe when it comes to Israel, isn't anti-semitic.

thouartgob 11-26-2011 10:37 AM

Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 232682)
Only a fellow traveler like yourself would conflate criticism of Islam with distaste "of [sic] muslims [sic]", probably because you can't imagine why someone would be opposed to the disgusting teachings of Islam.

I'm sorry but that is like saying followers of Hitler weren't Nazis. I mean they support the religion just like Nazis supported Hitler ... I mean Hitler ... Nazis ... Islam ...


Quote:


It's a fact that the "arab" [sic] world is backward, intellectually, culturally, technologically, scientifically, and morally, compared to Israel, as well as the Western world. And they live in the midst of sand. Also a fact. These facts may be unwelcome to you, but they are facts nonetheless. So I don't think there's really a reason to be overly kind to people who start three wars of aggression against a tiny state.
So can I quote you on the arabs being "sand nazis" thing or do I have to always use "backward sandy asses who also happen to be like nazis" ??

Quote:

I suggest that you invest some of that time in finding the Shift and comma-buttons on your keyboard, to make your vitriolic screeds more readable.
Hey Mr NY Times Book Critic I don't complain about your use of dramatic license why try and tamp down MY artistic creatitvity... what are you some kinda grammar nazi/muslim ????

Ocean 11-26-2011 10:52 AM

Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)
 
I listened to that segment of the diavlog again.

Walter states that it isn't Jews who drive US foreign policy towards Israel. He supports this claim by stating that American Jews are, as a group, to the left of current policy. He states that it is American gentiles who support such policies and that their views are more in tune with Likud than those of American Jews.

Glenn correctly brings up (although he doesn't explain it in so many words), that it may be entities like AIPAC that influence such policy. He obviously means that it doesn't matter so much what American Jews as a group may think, but it is the activist group's opinion that counts in terms of influence.

Walter tries to counter that by saying that AIPAC only points out who is pro-Israel or "anti-Israel", and based on that qualification the American electorate (non-Jewish) decides. This is based on the claim that American gentiles are pro-Israel for "complex reasons".

My interpretation of the above is that Walter gives AIPAC the role of "marking" or labeling candidates only, but he doesn't seem to consider the role of that labeling as influence on policy. Furthermore, when he points out that gentiles support Israel "for complex reasons" he doesn't advance the discussion. It's important to know what those complex reasons are. Let's say, that one of those reasons is heavy pro-Israel, anti-Palestinian propaganda. Then, one could still support the view that those who are responsible for the propaganda are influencing US foreign policy.

Then the antisemitism part starts. Walter states, first, "blaming" Jews for what American gentiles believe isn't antisemitism, but it's wrong and it's immoral. Then he introduces the concept of "latent anti-semitism". Then there's a brief mention about W&M and Walter clearly states that their position is antisemitic. Then they move on and both mention their sympathies for the Palestinian people, and their support of the state of Israel's right to exist. Both seem to agree with no noticeable difference in opinions. Walter had a statement about his own feelings about the issue which, IMO, was very nicely articulated. And then towards the end, it seems that Walter needed to present additional support to the idea that American gentiles have been supportive of a state of Israel for a long time. He mentioned MLK but also mentioned a petition presented in the 1890s calling for the establishment of a state of Israel. Glenn appropriately points out that this is not the issue being discussed. And Walter ends the diavlog reiterating what he seems to present as his central message.

In my opinion, Walter was so focused in making his point that he really wasn't listening to Glenn. Glenn tried to point out how the situation on the ground, as it has developed in recent decades, may change people's sympathies somewhat and make them more receptive to the Palestinian's plea. Walter agrees with the sympathies but doesn't make the connection that it is highly unlikely that the American people have been kept informed in an unbiased fashion about what's happening. Who is responsible for that (alleged) lack of information? Perhaps it will be discussed in a future diavlog.

I think that indeed, in order to give Walter the benefit of the doubt, one has to understand that he's trying to counter some more radical claims coming from possible antisemitic groups.

If one doesn't take that in consideration, his position in this diavlog doesn't stand alone. It doesn't address Glenn's questions, and it has the feeling of an attempt to prevent an open discussion by threat of being called a bigot. This latter is what Walter should be careful not to do if he wants to bring light to the topic.


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