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badhatharry 08-03-2011 12:51 AM

Re: Obama gets it. His base doesn't.

Quoting whburgess: I was only talking about SS, and your link confirmed what a ripoff that is since, according to it, the average couple retiring this year will have paid 10% more into it then they will get out. This doesn't seem to account for the fact that money invested in almost anything else would have yielded them millions of dollars.
Well I agree that careful and systematic investment is wise. However, not everyone is careful or wise and that's kind of why SS was created. Also, I don't think you can divorce Medicaid from SS because if you're on one you're on the other so the loss in one is made up for by the gain in the other (if you don't think about the interest).


But it doesn't change how screwed up these programs are.

On further thought...I don't think this article accounts for what would have been earned in conservative investment vehicles. I think 114,000 invested over a lifetime would yield a lot more then 355,000--so even medicare is a ripoff.[/
Well yes, we agree that both programs are screwed up. But what to do? I think the Ryan plan of phasing Medicare out gradually while still providing government paid for insurance is at least a serious step at trying to mend the problem. We seldom understand what we start when we engineer giant social programs.

Sulla the Dictator 08-03-2011 02:36 AM

Re: How Obama lost (and won back) my vote for 2012

Originally Posted by stephanie (Post 219864)
It's really amazing to compare this kind of thing with the ranting about Obama at some of the rightwing sites. (Hint, he's not a liberal, but a Marxist, and he hates America. And those are the nicest bits.) We have a really crazy disconnect from the people who think Obama is the most rightwing president ever and those who think he's to the left of Eugene Debs, between the people who think he's an insane jingoistic torturing fan of war for Corporate America and those who think he's trying to build up our enemies -- and duck out of all wars and foreign commitments but those to international law, of course -- because he secrets sympathizes with the third world vs. the US.

I can't speak for anyone who considers Obama to be a right winger (That seems pretty crazy), but I used to consider Obama to be pushing social democracy on the American people. Now I just think he's unprepared for the job.

Now, I wasn't crazy when I thought he was a social Democrat. If you take what he actually said before 2007 as a sincere statement of political beliefs, and you accept that he actually has a thin record of positions, you have to evaluate based on what you see and ask why you're being shown so little. Then you examine the milieu he appears from onto the national stage. His district was very far left, and he attended a HIGHLY political church which anyone could consider extreme.

Originally I thought he did these things, and said things like he favored single payer, because he believed them. Now I think that it was his easiest road to power.

Winspur 08-03-2011 11:36 AM

Re: Fear and Bargaining in DC (Robert Wright & Conn Carroll)
Bachmann's craziest statement? How about this:

She called gay marriage an "earthquake issue," insisting that failure to pass her proposal would mean that "sex curriculum would essentially be taught by the gay community" and that "little K-12 children will be forced to learn that homosexuality is normal, natural, and perhaps they should try it."

or this:

And half of Iraq, the western, northern portion of Iraq, is going to be calledÖ. the Iraq State of Islam, something like that. And Iím sorry, I donít have the official name, but itís meant to be the training ground for the terrorists. Thereís already an agreement made.

badhatharry 08-03-2011 11:53 AM

Re: Fear and Bargaining in DC (Robert Wright & Conn Carroll)

Originally Posted by Winspur (Post 219938)
Bachmann's craziest statement? How about this:

She's just a nice girl who believes that anyone can grow up to be president.

apple 08-03-2011 12:21 PM

Re: Fear and Bargaining in DC (Robert Wright & Conn Carroll)

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 219941)
She's just a nice girl who believes that anyone can grow up to be president.

Even mental cases, apparently.

eeeeeeeli 08-03-2011 12:23 PM

Re: How Obama lost (and won back) my vote for 2012

Originally Posted by whburgess (Post 219753)
Nothing would please us on the right more then if these two things could happen every election cycle:

1. More liberals think like this---or take your advice.

2. Someone like Ralph Nader run in every election.

This is exactly right. (I speak as a Nader voter in 2000).

I don't really understand liberals thinking Obama "betrayed" them - he's a freaking politician. And I don't say that as an ad hominem attack on his character, I say it as an acknowledgement that politicians - especially presidential candidates - have to be a lot of things to a lot of people. There are a lot of liberals, centrists and independents (whatever the hell they are) who are much further to the right than the typical base.

When ohreally, et. al. express admiration for the Tea Party, they must consider that Republicans have become a much smaller tent, that a handful of representatives are much different than a national, or even senatorial, candidate, and that the opposition party is going to get way with a lot more. (see: Nader; see: results)

I was let down somewhat by Obama - I thought he would do more. But I also knew that political realities were going to push against him hard - I would like to have not been reminded of this so brutally! But he's a moderate. Those who thought of him as some kind of liberal firebrand were deluding themselves. He rode a wave of liberal unity (mostly about little more than opposition to Republicanism as expressed by Bush), not a wave of the liberal base.

Florian 08-03-2011 02:31 PM

Re: Patriotic Millionaires Unite!

Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator (Post 219836)
Patriots usually aren't defined by taxes.

Well.... some millionaires do so define themselves, apparently. And how would you define patriotism, short of: dulce et decorum est pro patria mori? It is interesting, in any case, that almost half of all congressmen/women are millionaires. I assume the rest of them are pretty well-off too. It does make you wonder about their priorities.

I don't know enough about US taxes (even though I pay some taxes on investments in the US) to comment on your other observations.

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