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sp3akthetruth 08-19-2008 10:27 PM

Re: Obama Pessimism
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by grits-n-gravy (Post 87981)
If John thinks this was a coincidence I suggest he psycho-analyze himself.

Read some of the earlier comments. Maybe you need to psycho-analyze yourself. ;-)

Xelgaex 08-19-2008 10:41 PM

Re: Obama Pessimism
 
Quote:

It's true he mixed it up with the Leaning Tower of Pisa, but it's not true he said it was the Washington Monument. Why are you claiming he did?
It's in the clip I linked to. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkOADdNSr-o (Maybe I should have left it as an address in my original comment instead of making it a hyper-link using "Here's") Listen from 1:48 to 2:00 into it. It didn't come up in the diavlog, but it was in the Morning Joe show that they were talking about. For a little bit when I read your comment, I was afraid that I was just remembering it from the morning I watched it, and it wasn't in the clip. So I had to listen to it again.

I think the reason that I mentioned it when John and Glenn didn't is because when I was watching Morning Joe, I remember thinking that you could mistake the column for the Tower of Pisa. (There is a shot where the camera is tilted so the column looks to be leaning.) But I didn't see anything in there that looked like the Washington Monument. So it stuck in my mind.

I also remembered it because I had heard the argument "Why two promiscuous white women?" before I saw him on. And it does make sense that the campaign might have chosen Paris and Britney for being "famous for being famous" as the Republicans were arguing but that they had the added benefit of being associated with sex. So it was a kinda weird experience watching an argument that I sympathized with being made to look silly by my own side.

(Sorry for going so long about this. But tone is so hard to get right on the net. I didn't want to seem like I was attacking you.)

bjkeefe 08-19-2008 10:43 PM

Re: Obama Pessimism
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TwinSwords (Post 87962)
Five minutes in...

Gosh, I don't think I've seen Glenn so happy in a long time. He seems positively ecstatic that Obama's prospects appear to be dwindling.

I used to have a lot of respect for Glenn. Now he giggles with delight at the horrible fate that will befall the nation and the world when McCain -- who Glenn has been helping into the White House -- wins the election.

I'd be interested to hear if you felt the same way after watching the whole thing. I started watching this diavlog with your advance notice in mind. I can see why you'd have that reaction, but I didn't share it completely. I saw Glenn as getting the knife in a little bit in the beginning -- "I hate to say I tooooooooold you so" -- but I didn't see that as a persistent theme. I found most of his thoughts well-founded.

I did think he occasionally gave made claims that seemed based on cherry-picked evidence, and at other times, placed too much weight on small moments. I also think, as others have said (miceelf particularly well) and as I have said before, that Glenn holds Obama to a higher standard than he does other candidates -- there is almost a sense of him not wanting Obama to win because he's not the absolutely most perfect first black man ever, and he's afraid of the consequences of this.

That said, I also agree with you about Glenn's going too far, and I thought that kept happening throughout the diavlog.

I'll direct the rest of my comment at Glenn:

At this point in the campaign, it's time for you, along with Bob Wright and half the rest of the liberal commentariat, to get past your navel-gazing, to stop indulging yourselves in voicing every last worry that crosses your minds, and to stop letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. It's time to suck it up, get in line, and start waving the flag. It's annoying as hell to have a better candidate than the other side, to be running against the disaster of the past eight years, to realize that the other side doesn't even much like their own guy, but to observe how much better a job they are doing at working together to get him elected.

What, are you afraid the wingnuts are going to talk about our echo chamber? Hell, that's all they ever talk about anyway. Might as well make it true for once.

bjkeefe 08-19-2008 10:47 PM

Re: Obama Pessimism
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Namazu (Post 87974)
... we have this terrific Hispanic lesbian from a swing state.

You Bill Richardson dead-enders are worse than the PUMA people.

bjkeefe 08-19-2008 10:51 PM

Re: No!: It's "Realism" about Obama
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastwest (Post 87936)
(BTW, fair number of folks here are still stuck in trash-HRC mode. Get over it.

I think you need to clear your browser's cache. You seem to be reading old forum pages. Apart from reacting to Glenn's comments in this diavlog, no one has said boo about HRC in weeks, if not months.

You know who needs to "get over it?" You and Glenn. The more we learn about her campaign and observe how her top aides are behaving now, the more obvious it is what a bullet we dodged.

bjkeefe 08-19-2008 10:56 PM

Re: Obama Pessimism
 
Great post overall, miceelf.

In particular:

Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 87938)
On one hand, he's [Glenn's] upset that Obama didn't expositate on the deeper meanings underlying what we mean when we say evil, on the other hand, he admires John McCain's "straight talk" one line answers that contain nothing of substance whatsoever.

I'd call that a major ZING!

bjkeefe 08-19-2008 10:58 PM

Re: Obama Pessimism
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ohcomeon (Post 87926)
I agree one minute - disagree the next. I see both sides - I see neither side. No matter - these two are the best. Bloggingheads. ever.

Stop stealing my thoughts!

bjkeefe 08-19-2008 11:01 PM

Re: Obama Pessimism
 
Mr. Mayhem:

Thanks for this recommendation:

Quote:

Mr. Loury mentioned Andrew Bacevich as a prominent critic of the Global War on Terror. He has a new book out and would be a fantastic "get" for Bloggingheads. He's an impressive guy. Powers That Be, please consider approaching him to do a diavlog.
And this:

Quote:

... check out Black Landlord ...
I can heartily second the second.

I was delighted to find out that I didn't have a SWPL-type reaction to Jar Jar. Who knew anyone would bother to read anything into that character? I found him the most annoying thing ever to disgrace a movie screen, and quickly devoted my Jedi powers to wiping all memories of him from my mind.

John M 08-19-2008 11:08 PM

Re: Obama Pessimism
 
Quote:

Instead of dismissing his argument as mere quackery I wish Glenn and John had answered Herbert's question: what were these phallic symbols doing in the ad?
I have one question for you, my Friend Grits: What is wrong with a good red-blooded, Grade A, American phallus?

Nothing wrong with mine, thank you very much! (Unlike presidential loser Bob Dole who made Viagra commercials, heh-heh.)

This whole anti-man, chop-down-the-totem pole stuff started back in the 60s. While I was busy flying napalm missions against the Cong, the degenerate hippies and draft dodgers back home were burning their bras, spitting on our soldiers, smoking LSD and complaining about the male chauvinist patriarchy. That's a buncha bull, Grits.

Trust me, the Founding Fathers had phalluses. Take a gander at the Washington Monument, if you doubt me. That's one big phallus!

God Bless America, Grits. There's nothing wrong with a country that can still get it up and hunt Obama Bin Laden to the gates of hell.

DoctorMoney 08-19-2008 11:08 PM

Re: Obama Pessimism
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Namazu (Post 87974)
Not pessimistic yet? I have more...

More of that? Might wanna put an ad up on craigslist if you really need to make room.

Xelgaex 08-19-2008 11:13 PM

Re: Obama Pessimism
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by brucds (Post 87972)
I didn't see Herbert - Morning Joe is way too stupid a "news" show to bother with - so it's not my biz to defend or demean him. Given the obvious attempt to link Obama to white sluts, the phallic stuff isn't much of a stretch.

What I do know that it's unlikely any image in these ads is accidental. Sullivan's article makes what I consider a compelling case that the people doing McCain's ads are tapping deep in the gutter of gross pathologies that afflict various and sundry of the GOP base. "We are operating on many levels here."

I agree that Sullivan's article makes a compelling case. The ad is obviously saying he thinking he is the Messiah. And if you are a Christian and don't think that he is the Second Coming, then maybe he's someone else who many believe will someday make the claim.

I was raised Christian so the Antichrist connection was one of the first things I thought when I first saw the ad. I couldn't believe no one on TV seemed to be saying it. It seemed kinda obvious to me that the McCain campaign was trying to send the message to certain segments of Christians that Obama is the Antichrist. Of course this might sound crazy to someone who hasn't been exposed to the theology...and the right would just claim that it is humorous and they didn't realize that people would take it to mean anything like that.

With the celebrity ad, I can believe that the imagery might be there. However the strongest the argument can be made is "Why choose those two celebrities?" and "Why choose that speech in front of the column?" To which the right responds with "Famous for being famous; no substance." and "He gave that speech right before the ad came out." Which is a better response than they have for The One ad, I think.

Ultimately I think that it might not be politically advantageous to argue either one. But if I have to argue one, I would argue The One ad.

Namazu 08-19-2008 11:15 PM

Re: Obama Pessimism
 
Quote:

I'm not exactly sure how one black Republican can absolve the Republican Party
I don't think Clarence Page is a Republican; I know I'm not. You seem strangely attached to fact-free analysis.

grits-n-gravy 08-19-2008 11:47 PM

Re: Obama Pessimism
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sp3akthetruth (Post 87985)
Read some of the earlier comments. Maybe you need to psycho-analyze yourself. ;-)

I read your comment and it seems to me you misunderstood Herbert's premise. It's not whether the towers were cut-ins or not but rather their juxtaposition to two blond, white women.

radmul 08-20-2008 01:04 AM

Re: Obama Pessimism
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TwinSwords (Post 87980)
It's true he mixed it up with the Leaning Tower of Pisa, but it's not true he said it was the Washington Monument. Why are you claiming he did?

Here is a link to the video in which he claims there are shots of the Washington monument and the leaning tower. In point of fact it is the victory tower the location of the speech.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTIIPblBcYM

uncle ebeneezer 08-20-2008 01:52 AM

Re: Obama Pessimism
 
Well said Brendan. I'd add that the media also seems to be forgetting the fact that they, in part, help frame the conversation that Americans have over the race. While I admit that Obama is undoubtedly more interesting to talk about than McCain, this endless focus on every way in which Obama is less than perfect, and this continual magnification of his anticipated plight and why the voters are "rejecting" him (even when he still leads in polls, albeit by a slim margin) smells awfully familiar to what happened in previous elections. The media repeats the "Americans won't elect this guy" enough times until it becomes somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophesy. There's obviously alot more that goes into the result of an election, but I'm still somewhat dismayed that people like Bob Wright and Glenn (people who I admire for their ability to see the bigger picture) don't seem to recognize that they are contributing to a possible phenomenon (potential over-amplified focus on Obama's shortcomings) that may ultimately sabotage the hopes of many of their deepest concerns by helping McCain get elected. As someone who has a firm grasp of the power of spreading information via memes, I'm especially disappointed in Bob. It's one thing for a commenter like EastWest to continually engage in deriding Obama, but Bob and Glenn actually have the ability to speak to a much larger audience (no offense EW) as BHeads and columnists with large fanbases.

I fear that we are going to find ourselves in the midst of an abysmal McCain administration, and everyone will wake up from this Democratic canabilistic orgy, hungover and asking themselves "what have we done?" The endless litanies of Obama-bashing are going to look from that perspective like the Maureen Dowd obsessions of Gore in 2000. Worstly, when McCain starts showing the real "straight talk" people will wonder (like with Bush) "why didn't anybody ask any questions about THIS guy?"

Can we please get some critical discussion of McCain at some point?!!

bjkeefe 08-20-2008 02:00 AM

Re: Obama Pessimism
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by uncle ebeneezer (Post 88009)
I fear that we are going to find ourselves in the midst of an abysmal McCain administration, and everyone will wake up from this Democratic canabilistic orgy, hungover and asking themselves "what have we done?" The endless litanies of Obama-bashing are going to look from that perspective like the Maureen Dowd obsessions of Gore in 2000. Worstly, when McCain starts showing the real "straight talk" people will wonder (like with Bush) "why didn't anybody ask any questions about THIS guy?"

Can we please get some critical discussion of McCain at some point?!!

Indeed.

I think Mickey has gotten to Bob.

piscivorous 08-20-2008 02:25 AM

Re: Obama Pessimism
 
Perhaps the question they should really be asking, if your scenario comes about, is why do the Democrats always let the left wing of their party choose their candidates with this ridicules proportional voting schemes and caucus system that favors the activists?

bjkeefe 08-20-2008 02:34 AM

Re: Obama Pessimism
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by piscivorous (Post 88011)
Perhaps the question they should really be asking, if your scenario comes about, is why do the Democrats always let the left wing of their party choose their candidates with this ridicules proportional voting schemes and caucus system that favors the activists?

As far as the left wing of the Democratic party is concerned, Obama was more centrist than Kucinich, Gavel, Dodd, and Edwards. And even Clinton, if you cared most about health care.

And really, given the way the wingnuts own the Republican Party, you've got no place to stand in talking about "activists."

Eastwest 08-20-2008 02:43 AM

Re: No!: It's "Realism" about Obama
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 87991)
I think you need to clear your browser's cache. You seem to be reading old forum pages. Apart from reacting to Glenn's comments in this diavlog, no one has said boo about HRC in weeks, if not months.

Actually, since the current diavlog is what I was commenting upon, those responses are precisely what I was referring to (6 of first 15 posts devoted to the big sneer at HRC who hasn't been particularly relevant since early June). Why waste the time?

What you guys are failing to notice is that Loury was doing a critique of how Obama is campaigning against McCain and seeking the votes of those not already in his own camp. But, no, folks have to keep whining about history when the issue is Obama's stupid approach to how to win the General. Anything but deal with the issues with which you are confronted. Obama's campaigning like an ego-maniac amateur and condescending egghead and so he's just screwing himself when he didn't need to go about it that way at all. Aside from the starry-eyed members of his base, he is still perceived as artificial and insincere by the voters he's got to win over. This is where Glenn was coming from.

See below for what I meant by certain commenters being stuck in HRC-trashing mode. Again, get over it. We're talking about now.

EW

miceelf: "Loury seems to assume that things would have been better with his girl Clinton.

Who herself was just as much a product of image vs. substance. (her alleged foreign policy "experience" consisted of a variety of trips as first lady)."
sp3akthetruth: "I was thinking the same thing. He is infatuated with Clinton and his anger towards Obama is obvious every diavlog."
miceelf: "And the whole notion that Hillary Clinton would have been having the kind of high-minded disputation about the meaning of evil in taht forum is just laughable. He really doesn't seem to see how unfair and arbitrarily high a standard he is holding Obama to, relative to her."
brucds: "Unlike Hillary's ? Glenn. Get fucking real."
brucds: "If that made any sense at all, he'd already be toast and you'd be able to vote for your girl in November and wouldn't be harboring this bullshit bitterness toward Barack."
brucds: "Apparently Glenn's subscription to the Atlantic has run out, or he'd be embarrassed by his persistent Clintonphilia. The funny thing about so much of this discourse is that it's predicated on the notion that Hillary was the smart pol and Obama was an idealistic naif. This turned out to be total bullshit - Hillary couldn't manage a goddam presidential political campaign, i.e...."

claymisher 08-20-2008 02:44 AM

Re: Obama Pessimism
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by uncle ebeneezer (Post 88009)
Well said Brendan. I'd add that the media also seems to be forgetting the fact that they, in part, help frame the conversation that Americans have over the race. While I admit that Obama is undoubtedly more interesting to talk about than McCain, this endless focus on every way in which Obama is less than perfect, and this continual magnification of his anticipated plight and why the voters are "rejecting" him (even when he still leads in polls, albeit by a slim margin) smells awfully familiar to what happened in previous elections. The media repeats the "Americans won't elect this guy" enough times until it becomes somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophesy. There's obviously alot more that goes into the result of an election, but I'm still somewhat dismayed that people like Bob Wright and Glenn (people who I admire for their ability to see the bigger picture) don't seem to recognize that they are contributing to a possible phenomenon (potential over-amplified focus on Obama's shortcomings) that may ultimately sabotage the hopes of many of their deepest concerns by helping McCain get elected. As someone who has a firm grasp of the power of spreading information via memes, I'm especially disappointed in Bob. It's one thing for a commenter like EastWest to continually engage in deriding Obama, but Bob and Glenn actually have the ability to speak to a much larger audience (no offense EW) as BHeads and columnists with large fanbases.

I fear that we are going to find ourselves in the midst of an abysmal McCain administration, and everyone will wake up from this Democratic canabilistic orgy, hungover and asking themselves "what have we done?" The endless litanies of Obama-bashing are going to look from that perspective like the Maureen Dowd obsessions of Gore in 2000. Worstly, when McCain starts showing the real "straight talk" people will wonder (like with Bush) "why didn't anybody ask any questions about THIS guy?"

Can we please get some critical discussion of McCain at some point?!!


And how. What's the point of BH if it's just the same BS as cable news?

I'm going to quote Matt Yglesias on Slate, but it might apply to BH as well:

Quote:

Similarly, if in order to be "interesting" and "provocative" your publication contains some articles in which heterodox liberals challenge liberal conventional wisdom and other articles in which conservatives challenge liberal conventional wisdom, then your publication is mostly publishing conservative content.

piscivorous 08-20-2008 02:45 AM

Re: Obama Pessimism
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 88012)
As far as the left wing of the Democratic party is concerned, Obama was more centrist than Kucinich, Gavel, Dodd, and Edwards. And even Clinton, if you cared most about health care.

And really, given the way the wingnuts own the Republican Party, you've got no place to stand in talking about "activists."

Edward left by convince only, Kucinich, Gavel odd balls without a prayer, Dodd who I thought might be a good candidate so you can bet he didn't stand a chance in the primaries, your one example of Clinton with health care is not representative of her how she is/was perceived.

I guess that you can say the Senator McCain behind McCain-Fingold, McCain-Kennedy and his immigration stand are issues where he was pandering to the "wingnuts" and that why he is the presumptive nominee.

Jyminee 08-20-2008 03:03 AM

Thanks, Glenn
 
Glenn, my father passed away before I was mature enough to have a real conversation about politics with him. Hearing you describe your debates with your son about Obama put a wistful smile on my face. Thanks.

Eastwest 08-20-2008 03:05 AM

Re: No!: It's "Realism" about Obama
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TwinSwords (Post 87975)
(Referring to the Eastwest post) One of the challenges the Democrats face, one of the reasons it's hard for us to win presidential elections, is because people like you and Glenn want us to lose. [EW: This is Fox News style jive.] Every bit of energy you and he invest in this campaign is intended to weaken the candidate. You might as well be a Republican. You're the functional equivalent of a wingnut. Perhaps worse, as attacks on two flanks are more difficult to contend with than attacks on just one.

Nothing seems to lift your and Glenn's spirits or bolster your self-regard as much as bad news for Democrats.

Heck, even when there is no bad news for Obama -- he's been leading all summer [EW: "Screwing up all summer" is more like it.] , albeit by a slowly declining margin -- you crow about how he's losing. It's people like you who are going to doom this country to three more Scalia's on the Supreme Court and an irreversibly entrenched Republican fascism. For the life of me I don't understand why that makes men like you and Glenn so gosh darned happy.

Here's the deal: It's not about Glenn and his insecure jealousy of Obama, or his need to win all those arguments he's been having with his wife. It's not about you or your bitterness over Hillary's defeat. Neither one of you seems able to see past your own personal feelings. You both know what's better for the nation, and you are both determined to make sure it doesn't happen. [EW: The term for this little rant of yours is: "Assigning Motives." (Inaccurately, btw.)]

TS:

I can appreciate why it rankles that Dem cats don't herd very well and continue to call out jive and artifice when it's obvious.

But let's get real: Maybe a few thousand votes (max) would get influenced by Loury's having to laugh to keep from crying in his observations of Obama's pomposity, artifice, and amateurishness. Maybe a dozen (max) would ever be influenced by my own statements in that vein.

BHTV forum is a miniscule puddle in the great sea of electoral politics read almost solely by perhaps a hundred little minnows who think they're sharks and, as with your post, assume they're chatter is somehow consequential even though, of course, it's not, not, not.

So you can breathe a sigh of relief. If Obama didn't act like a pompous air-head, people like Glenn wouldn't call him out for it. The ball's in his court (again). We'll just see if he keeps dancing and pirouetting for the cheerleaders or gets down to the business of keeping the ball in play. Damn. There he goes again: another double fault!

I still want him to win, but I'm not going to quit calling them the way I see them just cuz a few reality-challenged bloggers get miffed over a little criticism of their amateur-hour political idol.

EW

bjkeefe 08-20-2008 03:06 AM

Re: Obama Pessimism
 
pisc:

Quote:

... odd balls without a prayer ...
Which sort of undercuts your claim that the far left controls the Democratic Party, doesn't it?

As for why McCain got the nomination this year, even you will have to admit that there are four reasons: the other wingnuts favorites knocked each other out, McCain pandered shamelessly to the religious right (including making up heart-warming stories, apparently), he sucked up to Bush starting years ago, and a few PR moments to build the "Maverick" image aside, he's always been far to the right himself.

bjkeefe 08-20-2008 03:19 AM

Re: No!: It's "Realism" about Obama
 
EW:

You can't even keep your bile flowing in the same direction. One the one hand, according to you, this board is a "miniscule [sic] puddle" "read almost solely by perhaps a hundred little minnows" who "assume they're [sic] chatter is somehow consequential even though, of course, it's not, not, not."

On the other, you get wildly bent out of shape when three (3) people say something unflattering about Clinton in response to the diavlog.

As you say: "Again, get over it. We're talking about now."

And yet you still have that stupid line in your sig.

Make up your mind.

Markos 08-20-2008 03:42 AM

Re: Obama Pessimism
 
John and Glenn are great.
I do disagree with John on the question of Obama's remark about opposition to "people who look like me." I think it was laziness on Obama's part. I think he was on autopilot and just rambled into some rhetoric from a previous time in his campaign when the remark could not be affixed to a specific opponent. But now we all know that his opponent is John McCain and Obama's remark left the McCain campaign with BOTH the obligation and the opportunity to take a swipe at Obama. McCain had the obligation to clear his name because, regardless of Obama's intent, the effect of the remark was as an accusation of McCain. Additionally, this is the hardest hardball game in American politics (running for president) and Obama dished out a perfect meatball pitch right down the middle of the plate. If McCain had done the equivalent for Obama, the Obama campaign would have clobbered it too, as they surely tried to exploit those sorts of things in the campaign against Hillary and Bill. The "people who look like me" remark was Obama's goof, because he did not explicitly clarify whom he was accusing, so it was thoroughly logical to assume it was McCain.
I also think that, while it's true that big speeches are a very important part of being president, so is answering reporters' questions at press conferences. Obama gets compared to JFK. But one thing that was truly great about JFK was that he held weekly televised press conferences and he enjoyed answering reporters' questions. I am uneasy about Obama's unease with being questioned.
On the other hand, I hope he wins. But I also hope he has some idea of what he's getting himself into.
In any case, as I said, John and Glenn are great. These discussions are even more impressive than their being the first Americans to orbit the earth.

Eastwest 08-20-2008 04:03 AM

Re: No!: It's "Realism" about Obama
 
BJ:

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

So you go back to the cheerleading squad and I'll keep calling them the way I see them.

BTW, your characterization of "wildly bent out of shape" is way off the mark. I only happened to mention parenthetically how the thread was starting right out refusing to acknowledge or deal with Loury's numerous valid points, preferring instead to "shoot the messenger" and engage in Clinton-Pique-Syndrome. (McWhorter & Loury both point this out as unjustified and old, old, old.) And then I countered TS's rant about what a sin it is for people like Loury, myself, and countless others to criticize what has indeed been unskillful campaigning.

I think what's becoming increasingly obvious is that the Obamaphiles are starting to suffer acute humiliation and embarrassment for having exercised such ridiculously poor judgement and so, rather than accept responsibility for being so foolishly naive, they get "wildly bent out of shape" and rush to the ramparts to shoot reality's ever-more-numerous massed troops laying siege to their goofy dream. They should have just had the sense to go for Biden a year ago and they wouldn't have this problem of a nail-biting contest when Dems should be ahead by a solid 15%.

Looks to me, given the Bradley effect, the entirely predictable onslought of right-wing trash-talk, and manipulation of social issues (abortion, gays, patriotism) over substance, Obama's going to do a spectacular face-plant with McCain winning without even having to break a sweat. The only prayer I see with Obama is in the one-on-one of debates, but, again, he's likely to go Al-Gorishly "wooden" and "lawyerly" and hurt rather than help himself.

It's not looking even a little bit pretty.

Cheers,
EW

John M 08-20-2008 04:15 AM

Re: No!: It's "Realism" about Obama
 
Dear My Friend East West,

Here's some straight talk:

Quote:

he's as good as dead meat and bound to be the great shame of the Democratic party for decades to come for pulling the big con with no real juice to back it up.
You are 101 per cent right about B. Hussein Obama. Completely juiceless dead meat con artist. I couldn't agree more.

Thank you for your support. I am reaching across the aisle to shake your hand. You are a great pundit and patriot.

God Bless America,
John

bjkeefe 08-20-2008 04:16 AM

Re: No!: It's "Realism" about Obama
 
EW:

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

So I'll continue to support my candidate and you go back to carping from your little hovel of bitterness.

Eastwest 08-20-2008 05:26 AM

Re: No!: It's "Realism" about Obama
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by John M (Post 88026)
Dear My Friend East West,

You are a great pundit and patriot.

God Bless America,
John

JM,

Really, you are too kind.

(Who is this guy, anyway? He's weirder and a good deal more suspect than that Thomson fellow from some months back. I think maybe they're the same, using multiple identities.)

No, I'm not a pundit. I just have little tolerance for political idolatry and so am prone to comment accordingly.

And, no, I'm not a "patriot," either (in any conventional sense of the term), as, although I might well be willing to die in attempting (nonviolently) to protect somebody from my country, I would surely never be willing to kill anyone for my country.

Fall-back position: Biden-Obama 2008. (My ticket-order is intentional, hoping against hope that Obama will, out of an uncharacteristic flush of humility and realism, allow the rest of his campaign and subsequent administration(s) to be strongly informed by the counsel of a wiser VP candidate.)

EW

Eastwest 08-20-2008 05:42 AM

Re: No!: It's "Realism" about Obama
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 88027)
EW:

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

So I'll continue to support my candidate and you go back to carping from your little hovel of bitterness.

Well, frankly, few things would make me more happy than if Obama would please quit giving us real Democrats so damn many excuses for carping. I'd be happy to praise his finesse if he'd ever get around to displaying any.

And, no, I'm not bitter. I'm just so stunned that Obama, sitting pretty ever since early June for what should really be a fairly easy cruise to the White House, loads up both six-shooters and, so unnecessarily, just keeps drilling himself in the foot all summer.

And I just shudder to think what kinds of IEDs that jack-ass ex-preacher of his is going to set out for Obama with his October book release. (Yep, good ol Rev. Wright is going to get his revenge for being left in the ditch [where he belongs, I dare say].)

And, BJ: "hovel of bitterness"? Come on, man. Rise above it. Just because somebody doesn't approve of your horse in the big race doesn't mean you have to go all goofy with these unjustified imputations. Maybe chill a little guy. Take a break from the keyboard and go to the beach, perhaps? You Obama disciples really do seem to take yourselves so seriously here.

EW

NYC10012 08-20-2008 05:59 AM

Re: Obama Pessimism
 
McWhorter & Loury are great. We could use a lot more of their perspective in this campaign. This kind of clearheadedness is all too rare in the '08 election season.

DoctorMoney 08-20-2008 08:37 AM

Re: No!: It's "Realism" about Obama
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastwest (Post 88031)
Well, frankly, few things would make me more happy than if Obama would please quit giving us real Democrats so damn many excuses for carping. I'd be happy to praise his finesse if he'd ever get around to displaying any.

And, no, I'm not bitter. I'm just so stunned that Obama, sitting pretty ever since early June for what should really be a fairly easy cruise to the White House, loads up both six-shooters and, so unnecessarily, just keeps drilling himself in the foot all summer.

Real Democrats? Seriously?

As someone who's never been 'the real' anything in a political process, I just gotta say that dealing with folks like you is a necessary evil. When we've got a two party system, no one gets to call themselves authentic, though plenty try anyway.

Christ, I feel like our whole lives are spent dealing with the fools who think of themselves as the Real Americans or the Real Progressives or the Real Patriots. And the only thing those groups consistently have in common is their desperate need for validation.

Ocean 08-20-2008 08:43 AM

Re: No!: It's "Realism" about Obama
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by John M (Post 88026)
Dear My Friend East West,

Here's some straight talk:

You are 101 per cent right about B. Hussein Obama. Completely juiceless dead meat con artist. I couldn't agree more.

Thank you for your support. I am reaching across the aisle to shake your hand. You are a great pundit and patriot.

God Bless America,
John

Good try, my friend John M. The intellectual crowd is tough. You may need to change your tactic or perish... It's the Internets after all!

Love your enemy.
Ocean

miceelf 08-20-2008 10:55 AM

Re: No!: It's "Realism" about Obama
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastwest (Post 88031)

And, BJ: "hovel of bitterness"? Come on, man. Rise above it. Just because somebody doesn't approve of your horse in the big race doesn't mean you have to go all goofy with these unjustified imputations. Maybe chill a little guy.

EW

This from the person who said: "what's becoming increasingly obvious is that the Obamaphiles are starting to suffer acute humiliation and embarrassment for having exercised such ridiculously poor judgement and so, rather than accept responsibility for being so foolishly naive, they get "wildly bent out of shape" and rush to the ramparts to shoot reality's ever-more-numerous massed troops laying siege to their goofy dream."

Hovel of bitterness requires a good deal less psychoanalysis than does that bit of babble.

But back and forth aside- Loury (and it seems you) are holding Obama to an impossible standard. As I noted, he simultaneously criticized Obama for not being nuanced enough (!!!!) about evil while praising McCain for his snappy and empty one-liners.

It would be great if Loury (and you) were pleased with anything Obama did. But I just don't see how it can happen. If the only way he can please you is to step down, then once again- you're expecting something from him that one couldn't expect from ANY other politician.

Intractable 08-20-2008 12:18 PM

Re: Obama Pessimism
 
Obama should watch this diavlog.

bkjazfan 08-20-2008 12:29 PM

Re: Obama Pessimism
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by John M (Post 87996)
I have one question for you, my Friend Grits: What is wrong with a good red-blooded, Grade A, American phallus?

Nothing wrong with mine, thank you very much! (Unlike presidential loser Bob Dole who made Viagra commercials, heh-heh.)

This whole anti-man, chop-down-the-totem pole stuff started back in the 60s. While I was busy flying napalm missions against the Cong, the degenerate hippies and draft dodgers back home were burning their bras, spitting on our soldiers, smoking LSD and complaining about the male chauvinist patriarchy. That's a buncha bull, Grits.

Trust me, the Founding Fathers had phalluses. Take a gander at the Washington Monument, if you doubt me. That's one big phallus!

God Bless America, Grits. There's nothing wrong with a country that can still get it up and hunt Obama Bin Laden to the gates of hell.

I wonder how many of those draft dodgers who were morally opposed to the war were primarily afraid to serve and their moral opposition to the war was a ruse? I know of a few who were of this ilk and they had no opposition to become car carrying capitalists in this (in their prior opinion) immoral country.

John

bjkeefe 08-20-2008 01:31 PM

Re: No!: It's "Realism" about Obama
 
EW:

Quote:

Just because somebody doesn't approve of your horse in the big race doesn't mean you have to go all goofy with these unjustified imputations. Maybe chill a little guy. Take a break from the keyboard and go to the beach, perhaps? You Obama disciples really do seem to take yourselves so seriously here.
I feel the same way about you. You're locked into your own narrative and have no compunction about replaying it at every drop of a hat. You never do anything but caricature those of us who prefer to push back against the rightwing smear machine, the perennial Democratic dithering, and a media that would rather obsess over minor shortcomings than address the giant failings of John McCain.

You are unable to grasp the idea that anyone could simply prefer one candidate over another and might wish to speak up on his behalf and in his defense. Instead, because things aren't perfectly to your liking, you insist on pompously pronouncing your dissatisfactions with the candidate who is closer to sharing what you claim are your views, rather than acknowledging just how much worse the only other choice would be. You'll spend from now until November putting all your efforts into helping the GOP denigrate Obama, motivated by little beyond a wish to be able to say, "I told you so." You're all about smugness and self-satisfaction.

You like to adopt this supercilious air of being above it all. But really, you're not doing anything more than regurgitating what spews forth from the wingnuts every day. And as long as you insist upon doing that, I'll pass on the beach. Not to mention every other piece of advice you might offer.

grits-n-gravy 08-20-2008 06:12 PM

Re: Obama Pessimism
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkjazfan (Post 88050)
I wonder how many of those draft dodgers who were morally opposed to the war were primarily afraid to serve and their moral opposition to the war was a ruse? I know of a few who were of this ilk and they had no opposition to become car carrying capitalists in this (in their prior opinion) immoral country.

John


You might ask the same question of those draftees who served against their moral reservations. Were they cowards for not opposing the draft and taking whatever consequences that may befall such persons?

laurelnyc 08-20-2008 07:13 PM

Re: Obama Pessimism
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by brucds (Post 87972)
I didn't see Herbert - Morning Joe is way too stupid a "news" show to bother with - so it's not my biz to defend or demean him. Given the obvious attempt to link Obama to white sluts, the phallic stuff isn't much of a stretch. "

I really don't appreciate your calling Britney & Paris "sluts." They are not sluts --- yes, they have sexy personas, but that does not make them "sluts." Furthermore, I find calling young women who enjoy sex to be demeaning & sexist. Why are female pop stars ridiculed and derided as "sluts," yet young male pop stars are not? It is time that the sexual double standard end!! It is perfectly normal for young people to enjoy sex. People are no longer marrying at 18, so it's obvious that there is more pre-marital sex, but that does not make us "slutty."


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