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-   -   Goodbye to All That Green (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?t=1533)

Anyuser 12-13-2007 06:21 PM

NIE: Bob lacks irony, Mickey lacks sanity
 
Listen to Bob's paean the the NIE as a category of information. Now apply every word of it to the NIE issued in '02 concluding Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.

Mickey's conspiracy theories are just plain nuts. The Bush administration has never had anywhere near such subtlety.

ohcomeon 12-13-2007 06:23 PM

Re: Goodbye to All That Green
 
I'm on! That was a lot of work.

TwinSwords 12-13-2007 06:25 PM

Bug Report
 
I'm going to move this to the "general comments" thread.

bjkeefe 12-13-2007 06:32 PM

Re: Goodbye to All That Green
 
kj:

The "personal story" of candidates doesn't impress me. I particularly don't care about whatever tragedy might have occurred. Bad shit happens in everybody's life.

I say Edwards strikes me as phony not because of what the media says about him, but based upon my reaction to watching him give speeches and interviews and participate in debates. Since 2004, mind you.

uncle ebeneezer 12-13-2007 06:43 PM

Re: Goodbye to All That Green
 
Wow, SOOOO much WHITE!!! I feel like I'm at a Klan meeting in a snowstorm in Colorado Springs.

Looks pretty cool on the whole, but I'm slow to adjust. Congrats on finally getting it done though. And welcome back, KJ.

Abu Noor Al-Irlandee 12-13-2007 06:45 PM

Re: Goodbye to All That Green
 
kj,

You are right on about the tapes discussion. Mr. Kaus's comments were utterly bizarre and deserving of an outburst from Mr. Wright, but apparently he felt unable to even disagree with Mr. Kaus becuase in the past he's made such a big deal of the realist considerations of the effects of images in the Arab/Muslim street.

It is morally outrageous to say that one's own government should seek to destroy the evidence of its criminal and immoral behavior because if people knew what the government did, they would hate it.

As kj points out, the solution is not to engage in such behavior in the first place. If one believes that the government should be accountable at all to anybody, then of course transparency has to be the answer, as Mr. Wright alludes to but won't defend aggressively here.

Also, Mr. Kaus admits here the bogusness and danger of the ticking time bomb nonsense...yet he continues to play that card himself...bizarre. The ticking time bomb case doesn't happen in real life, and if one accepts it as a principle, it will be applied in many many cases which are obviously not ticking time bomb...but the government will convince themselves that they are...one can already see this in what the U.S. has done since 9/11 and it was a conclusion reached by the Israeli Supreme Court after Israel's experiment with legalized torture.

bjkeefe 12-13-2007 06:48 PM

Re: Goodbye to All That Green
 
I agree with kj and Abu Noor's thoughts about the tapes. I'll add one point: imagination is often worse than visualization. I think that applies in this case -- the fact that the tapes were destroyed makes people wonder just how bad they were.

piscivorous 12-13-2007 06:49 PM

Re: Goodbye to All That Green
 
While Mickey's conspiracy theory has a lot of holes he may he dancing around the issue. As Bob states it would be almost impossible to exert control over the various factions, that contribute to producing the NIE, making it impossible to dictate a certain or desired outcome and that the any new evidence or information would eventually get leaked so it can't be denied or buried. Mickey is correct in that you can influence the way that information is made use of and presented by influencing who the authors of the NIE are. The Washington post has an interesting look at who these three primary authors are and their relationships with the Administration. Strange that these particular authors all come from a State Department background and not an intelligence background and have been rather candid about their views of the administration Middle East policies. http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/...112070099/1001

Abu Noor Al-Irlandee 12-13-2007 06:54 PM

Re: Goodbye to All That Green
 
I'm surprised at the lack of Edwards love from you Brendan...as I am surprised in general at Edwards' seeming inability to gain traction in the Democratic primary.

Edwards is definitely talking the most progressive of the big 3 and as to whether he is "phony," to me phony is just another word for politician. I guess you're just looking for someone who's good at being phony, or for someone who can fake sincerity better.

TwinSwords 12-13-2007 06:54 PM

Re: Goodbye to All That Green
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfgangus (Post 66351)
Plus it looks like we are going to live in Greenwich Mean Time, now.

You can set your time zone on this page: [LIST][*]http://www.brainwaveweb.com/forum/pr...do=editoptions[/LIST]

Abu Noor Al-Irlandee 12-13-2007 07:07 PM

Re: Goodbye to All That Green
 
Brendan,

This is an interesting point. You are right that the assumption in the minds of Muslims (and everyone else) right now has got to be that the torture on the tapes was blatant and extreme, and what we are conjuring in our minds is probably worse than what actually happened.

These considerations are on an intellectual level, however. For example I know that there are Muslims being held in secret prisons all over the world by the U.S. and believe they are being tortured in many. I also know that there are Muslims being tortured throughout the Muslim world, many of whom are Islamists who oppose the tyrannical U.S. backed governments in those countries.

Yet, these are just things I know or believe intellectually. There is something about seeing pictures of the inmates at Guantanamo or pictures from Abu Ghraib, etc. that just makes it harder to ignore what's going on or convince yourself that you can't do anything about it. It is undeniable that pictures go a long way to creating an emotional need to DO something, and if there is no productive way to channel that, it can lead to all kinds of reactions or just a deep deep anger and shame at one's own powerlessness.

I am not defending this reality intellectually, but I think it is true.

bjkeefe 12-13-2007 07:12 PM

Re: Goodbye to All That Green
 
Abu Noor:

Quote:

I'm surprised at the lack of Edwards love from you Brendan ...
Well, what can I say? There's no accounting for visceral reactions. I must also say that Obama really strikes me as different from most politicians. I am cynical enough to entertain the possibility that he's just far better at faking sincerity than the rest of the bunch, but in my gut, I don't feel that way.

"Edwards is definitely talking the most progressive of the big 3 ..."


That may well be. I won't hate it if he becomes president, as opposed to any Republican, on the basis of stated policies.

bjkeefe 12-13-2007 07:20 PM

Re: Goodbye to All That Green
 
Abu Noor:

I think you're probably right about the power of the images, especially if one considers the likelihood that they would be shown non-stop on TV in the Arab world.

Still, I am mortified that my government is in the business of destroying evidence of their crimes. I cannot wait for this administration to be out of office.

Abu Noor Al-Irlandee 12-13-2007 07:29 PM

Re: Goodbye to All That Green
 
Brendan,

As to Obama, I think the political system makes you say things or take positions that you don't really believe in, but it's probably true that you can be, and perhaps this is true of Obama, sincere in the sense that you really believe saying those things or taking those positions or talking that way is the way that one participates in the system and you really believe you can help people through the system and therefore you've convinced yourself to really believe in what you are doing. And I guess, if you do believe in participating in the system, as almost everyone does, that's the intelligent way to do it. In my heart, I still have self destructive and self defeating respect for radicals, idealogues and people in general who say things they believe in even though they know it makes them unelectable just because they know those things are true and important. As much as I may like Obama's personality and find his politics obviously light years ahead of Bush, it just sticks in my craw that he doesn't say anything that would make him unelectable. This either means he either has views which are completely mainstream in the political system which makes him both uninteresting and to some extent not intellectually searching or he is hiding those views and both are kinds of phoniness.

Although most of the same "criticisms" would apply to Edwards or any mainstream politician, I just sometime do get the perception listening to Edwards in this campaign that out of the big 3 he's certainly the one willing to stake out the radical position.

So, I guess what I'm saying is I don't trust or respect any politician that could win an election. Probably a pretty stupid way to think...

bjkeefe 12-13-2007 07:35 PM

Re: Goodbye to All That Green
 
Abu Noor:

Quote:

So, I guess what I'm saying is I don't trust or respect any politician that could win an election. Probably a pretty stupid way to think...
LOL. No, I don't think it's that stupid. It's sounds like it's straight out of the book of Groucho Marx.

I know what you mean about politicians that have a chance of winning being averse to saying much of anything that could alienate people. Blame it on our system, especially the eagerness of opponents to use attack ads and the 24-hour news cycle that's willing to beat any triviality to death.

Given these realities, the only thing I can do is hope for the best on the policy promises, and trust in my gut for the rest.

uncle ebeneezer 12-13-2007 07:53 PM

Re: Scandalmongering
 
So is Mickey's contention that: printing rumors that probably aren't true, is actually serving the principle of truth because it speeds along the process of us finding out that the un-truth is actually not true? Wow, Mickey. You are a true champion of truth and thus the National Enquirer (and Fox News) are leading your glorious way. Retarded.

Castaa 12-13-2007 08:09 PM

Re: thumbs UP!
 
I like the redesign.

I also like the overall design of the old site.

Simon Willard 12-13-2007 08:33 PM

Re: Goodbye to All That Green
 
My first post on the new system. Will these bells and whistles detract from the content?
[FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]My first smiley:[/FONT] :)
I agree with you about Edwards, Brendan. Actually, I think he's worse than Romney.
[FONT="Comic Sans MS"][SIZE="2"]My first font change.[/SIZE][/FONT]
OK, what was I saying? [COLOR="Green"][FONT="Century Gothic"]OMG, are we teenagers yet?[/FONT][/COLOR]

bjkeefe 12-13-2007 08:36 PM

Re: Goodbye to All That Green
 
Simon:

My biggest dread about this new forum software is the smilies.

I forget your political leanings, but I'm amazed anyone doesn't perceive Romney as the biggest phony ever.

testostyrannical 12-13-2007 08:38 PM

Re: Goodbye to All That Green
 
Alright. That's cool. I'm glad to see there's a post post editing function. I find myself, from time to time, really wishing I could edit something stupid that I said after posting.

jmcnulty 12-13-2007 08:41 PM

Re: Goodbye to All That Green
 
The surprise is that Hillary is in full meltdown mode. Bill Clinton has had to intervene in her campaign, and in fact may be running it. The polls, always a lagging indicator, put Hillary second in Iowa and first in Hew Hampshire. I suspect that she will finish THIRD in Iowa and no better than second in New Hampshire.

The problem is that Obama has avoided duking out issues with her. As a result, she has become shriller and shriller. The direct intervention of Bill will only remind voters that they "like" Bill and don't "like" her. I suspect that as she becomes more desperate, she will become even more unattractive to voters.

I have heard from Hillary's campaign that Obama had a schoolyard fight when he was in kindergarten, and he may have been the aggressor. Obviously, we cannot take the risk on someone with aggressive tendencies in the Oral Office.

The Clintons are capable of anything, and I suspect that they will soon pull out all the stops. As usual, she is using a cutout -- someone who can be chacterized as an "over-zealous campaign aide" -- who can be fired to keep her separated from the "politics of personal destriction," at which the Clintons have always been expert.

Huckabee is trying a similar tactic, bringing up Mormonism hoping that the press will run with it, printing stories asking "Well, what do Mormons REALLY believe?", hoping that he has tossed a depth charge on the Romney campaign, the effects of which he can later piously regret ("It is regrettable that in America some people still make religious beliefs a test for public office.").

Regarding the tapes, it has seemed to me from the beginning that the CIA would destroy them to put additional blame on the Bush administration. This insures that the critics assume that the tapes were incriminating of some terrible crime, and destroying them mades it impossible to defend the practices. It is only indicative of the way in which it is becoming the conventional wisdom to believe, like John Edwards, that the War on Terror is just a bumper sticker for the Bush Reich. This will continue until an American city disappears in a nuclear flash.

Now revolutionary Iran will almost certainly get the capability to build nukes. What is to keep them from slipping one to Hezbollah or Hamas? All they have to tell our "intelligence" agencies is that the nuke was stolen or taken by "hostile elements" against the wishes of the Mullahs. Or better still, tell our "intelligence" agencies that unless we do thus and so (abandon Israel, for example), they will set off 10 nukes hidden in American cities. Who on the left would believe thiis could happen? If the government discloses it, the Left will just argue that the Bush Reich is just trying to create a reason for war.

Steven Andrew Miller 12-13-2007 09:00 PM

Re: The Tapes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kj (Post 66378)
Torture will get you crap information. How can that not be obvious to everyone? I'm continually confused by people who think torture does anything but get you confessions. It's worthless and stupid to go along with its immorality. Is there any evidence, anywhere, that torture gets useful information. I spent some time looking once and couldn't find it.

Former CIA agent John Kiriakou, who was head of the team that interrogated Abu Zubaydah, told Brian Ross of ABC News just three days ago that waterfboarding does work.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=3978231

Quote:

A leader of the CIA team that captured the first major al Qaeda figure, Abu Zubaydah, says subjecting him to waterboarding was torture but necessary.

In the first public comment by any CIA officer involved in handling high-value al Qaeda targets, John Kiriakou, now retired, said the technique broke Zubaydah in less than 35 seconds

"The next day, he told his interrogator that Allah had visited him in his cell during the night and told him to cooperate," said Kiriakou in an interview to be broadcast tonight on ABC News' "World News With Charles Gibson" and "Nightline."

"From that day on, he answered every question," Kiriakou said. "The threat information he provided disrupted a number of attacks, maybe dozens of attacks."
I guess you might want to spend more time looking.

jmcnulty 12-13-2007 09:18 PM

Re: Goodbye to All That Green
 
There are two quetions here. Utility and morality. The fact is that torture does "work," in the sense of getting information. Ask John McCain if he broke under "torture." But there are some things that we just will not do ("cruel and unusual punishments"). I do not favor doing anything that will inflict serious physical damage, such as beatings or pulling out fingernails. Is sleep deprivation "torture"? Amnestry International and the Geneva Convention say it is. On that basis, Janet Reno and Bill Clinton inflicted "torture" on the women and children of the Branch Davidians. If we will not engage in "torture," including "waterboarding," does that mean that we cannot engage in any "coercive" tactics? If someone is in prison and knows he will stay here indifinitely unless he talks, is that not a form of "torture" ("coercive" interrogation, making the detainee do something he does not want to do)? "Waterboarding," which seldom lasts a minute, would seem preferable to hours of sleep deprivation or indefinite imprisonment, deprived of family or communication with loved ones. This moral preening on the Left on this issue -- when FDR locked up innocent Japanese and hanged German saboteurs who had done no harm -- is distasteful and unrealistic in view of enemies who would not hesitate in cutting any captive's throat (on television!)..

ohcomeon 12-13-2007 10:19 PM

Re: Goodbye to All That Green
 
So, how does one use one of those stupid emoticons?

kj 12-13-2007 10:54 PM

Re: Goodbye to All That Green
 
Okay, time for one of my stupid condescending theories. I think the phoniness charge is mostly transference on your part. Something about Edwards mannerisms bothers you and you compute it as phoniness when it's really just incompatibility with the way he speaks and acts. This happens all the time with people and I know I've read some linguist somewhere who laid this out, perhaps Deborah Tannen. Edwards politician mode is better suited to attract cultural hicks like me. And here's Yglesias with some timely evidence supporting my cause: http://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.c...or_edwards.php

CNN's Mary Snow reported after the debate: "Twenty-three registered Democrats came in here undecided. We asked them who they felt performed the best in this debate and they concluded they felt that John Edwards performed the best, with Senator Clinton right behind him. Now of course, this is unscientific, but also the other question posed to them. If the election were held today, who would you vote for? And in that question, John Edwards came in first, Senator Barack Obama second, and Senator Clinton came in third." The Fox News focus group felt the same way. That's not how I felt watching the debate. For me, the best cure for developing pro-Edwards leanings is always to actually watch him in action: I find his persona self-righteous and a bit annoying, but the evidence has consistently been that most people don't feel that way, and this afternoon's focus groups are no exception.

The high-minded just don't like Johnny, but us cultural and intellectual heathens think he's dandy. And there's way more of us then you and that's why he performs the best in those polled head to head contests.

kj 12-13-2007 10:56 PM

Re: Goodbye to All That Green
 
Well said Abu Noor. Better said than I.

kj 12-13-2007 11:00 PM

Re: Goodbye to All That Green
 
The images point is a good one, but I don't see why the tapes couldn't have been kept and simply not released to the media. Just because they exist doesn't mean they have to be seen by the entire world. For all my self-righteousness, I'm not above making up some security argument that the tapes needed to be protected and not disbursed. Is this really so hard? Defending the destruction of the tapes is really ridiculous.

thprop 12-13-2007 11:04 PM

<--- Emoticon appears here
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ohcomeon (Post 66424)
So, how does one use one of those stupid emoticons?

Like this - just pick the emoticon from below and it appears next to the message title above.

DenvilleSteve 12-13-2007 11:05 PM

Re: The Tapes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Andrew Miller (Post 66419)
Former CIA agent John Kiriakou, who was head of the team that interrogated Abu Zubaydah, told Brian Ross of ABC News just three days ago that waterfboarding does work.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=3978231



I guess you might want to spend more time looking.

well said and thanks for the link.

Of course torture works. Otherwise, why would the interrogators use it?

kj 12-13-2007 11:13 PM

Re: Goodbye to All That Green
 
I guess it depends who you trust. Kiriakou is a fool as far as I can tell. From Wikipedia here's a summary of what Suskind found and wrote in his book "The One Percent Doctrine": In June 2006, Simon & Schuster published a book titled The One Percent Doctrine authored by Ron Suskind. In the book, Suskind writes that sources in the intelligence community revealed to him that Abu Zubaydah knew nothing about the operations of al-Qaeda, but rather was al-Qaeda's go-to guy for minor logistics such as travel for wives and children. Suskind notes that Zubaydah turned out to be mentally ill, keeping a diary "in the voice of three people: Hani 1, Hani 2, and Hani 3" -- a boy, a young man and a middle-aged alter ego. The book also quotes Dan Coleman, then the FBI's top al-Qaeda analyst, telling a senior bureau official, "This guy is insane, certifiable, split personality." According to Suskind, this judgment was "echoed at the top of CIA and was, of course, briefed to the President and Vice President," yet two weeks later Bush gave a speech and labeled Zubaydah as "one of the top operatives plotting and planning death and destruction on the United States." Suskind also writes about how the CIA abused Zubaydah to get him to talk.

Of course, some would dispute what Suskind wrote but that comports with what makes sense to me as does this collection that Tom Ricks put together here

I would hardly offer up what Kiriakoa said as any kind of proof that torture works. If you had tortured someone, you'd probably want to believe it wasn't a complete waste either.

Baltimoron 12-13-2007 11:18 PM

Re: Goodbye to All That Green
 
Congratulations on the web re-design!

But, seriously, you managed to keep the "green"?!???

kj 12-13-2007 11:18 PM

Re: Goodbye to All That Green
 
ASk McCain if he broke under torture?! I thought everyone knew the story. he didn't. The only real information he claims to have offered up was his name, rank, serial number, and birthdate (oh, and a signed confession, big suprise!) I'll stop moral preening when you come up with a shred of evidence that torture gets you anything but confessions. I'd say the burden lies on the pro-torture side on this one.

kj 12-13-2007 11:23 PM

Re: Goodbye to All That Green
 
Of course torture works. Otherwise, why would the interrogators use it?

Holy shit! This is my favorite Denville Steve post yet! I rarely laugh out loud but I did on this one. This just confirms my suspicions that you are the greatest satirical character in online discussion board history. Bravo!

DenvilleSteve 12-13-2007 11:28 PM

Re: Goodbye to All That Green
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 66404)
Abu Noor:

I think you're probably right about the power of the images, especially if one considers the likelihood that they would be shown non-stop on TV in the Arab world.

Still, I am mortified that my government is in the business of destroying evidence of their crimes. I cannot wait for this administration to be out of office.

Pamela Hess on CSPAN said the tapes were made to protect the interrogators from charges they went too far. I trust the tapes were viewed by higher ups and served that purpose. It is good they were destroyed.

instead of being mortified by the US government, you could just leave the country. Only in the United States do you have self reliant, God believing, decent people who want limited government, who dont believe in interfering in the lives of others.

The remainder of the world is populated by people who believe the state, not the individual is supreme. It is only fair that democrats move away instead of sticking around and denying Americans the way of life they can only find in their country.

-Steve

kj 12-13-2007 11:31 PM

Re: Goodbye to All That Green
 
[Italic]Now revolutionary Iran will almost certainly get the capability to build nukes. What is to keep them from slipping one to Hezbollah or Hamas? All they have to tell our "intelligence" agencies is that the nuke was stolen or taken by "hostile elements" against the wishes of the Mullahs. Or better still, tell our "intelligence" agencies that unless we do thus and so (abandon Israel, for example), they will set off 10 nukes hidden in American cities. Who on the left would believe thiis could happen? If the government discloses it, the Left will just argue that the Bush Reich is just trying to create a reason for war.[/Italic]

Can you get any more paranoid? 10 nukes hidden in American cities. Iran is about 100 years away from that capability. The U.S. probably isn't capable of hiding a single nuke in Iran but you think Iran can hide 10 nukes in the U.S. when they can't even enrich weapons grade uranium. The problem with your paranoia is that it is always way in this fanciful future. You simply don't know what Iran is going to do so stop pissing your pants worrying about what they might be capable of in a few decades. Iran is as rational an actor as any other nation. If conservatives could figure that out, we could have a rational debate on how to deal with Iran, but until then, I picture you guys cowering under your bed, peeing your pants, and wondering if its safe to go to the mall tomorrow. Do yourself a favor, rent Dr. Strangelove and try to figure out what Kubrick was doing with that film.

Steven Andrew Miller 12-13-2007 11:32 PM

Re: Goodbye to All That Green
 
I guess it depends who you trust. Kiriakou is a fool as far as I can tell. From Wikipedia here's a summary of what Suskind found and wrote in his book "The One Percent Doctrine": In June 2006, Simon & Schuster published a book titled The One Percent Doctrine authored by Ron Suskind. In the book, Suskind writes that sources in the intelligence community revealed to him that Abu Zubaydah knew nothing about the operations of al-Qaeda, but rather was al-Qaeda's go-to guy for minor logistics such as travel for wives and children. Suskind notes that Zubaydah turned out to be mentally ill, keeping a diary "in the voice of three people: Hani 1, Hani 2, and Hani 3" -- a boy, a young man and a middle-aged alter ego. The book also quotes Dan Coleman, then the FBI's top al-Qaeda analyst, telling a senior bureau official, "This guy is insane, certifiable, split personality." According to Suskind, this judgment was "echoed at the top of CIA and was, of course, briefed to the President and Vice President," yet two weeks later Bush gave a speech and labeled Zubaydah as "one of the top operatives plotting and planning death and destruction on the United States." Suskind also writes about how the CIA abused Zubaydah to get him to talk.

Of course, some would dispute what Suskind wrote but that comports with what makes sense to me as does this collection that Tom Ricks put together here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...101201885.html

Quote:

I would hardly offer up what Kiriakoa said as any kind of proof that torture works.

So you are asking me to pick between an author who wasn't there, and the agent who was there? I think I'll pick the guy who is willing to stake his personal reputation over an author and his anonymous sources.

Quote:

If you had tortured someone, you'd probably want to believe it wasn't a complete waste either.
Kiriakoa didn't waterboard anyone. He was just a witness to it. In fact, if your read or watch the interview, he says that, while he admits it works, he is opposed to it, and that is part of the reason he left the CIA.

Don't make assumptions.

kj 12-13-2007 11:33 PM

Re: Goodbye to All That Green
 
Damn you good Denville. Like I've always said, the best satirist around. Spot on.

kj 12-13-2007 11:35 PM

Re: Goodbye to All That Green
 
Your choice I guess, but I'd urge you to think about it a bit more. And ask yourself if you've ever seen any actual evidence that torture works.

DenvilleSteve 12-13-2007 11:43 PM

Bob and Mickey never sounded this dumb
 
On the NIE/Iran discussion Mickey makes little sense. The NIE report was worded to be favorable to Iran and the US will turn a blind eye to whatever nuke program Iran chooses to pursue. In return Iran will stop sponsoring attacks on US troops in Iraq.

Maybe Ayatollah Sistani has a say in the matter of Persian meddling in Iraq. Or the Iraqi government, more and more intrenched and flush with 2 million plus barrels of oil production a day.

Bob cant counter Mickey's nonsense because he cant bring himself to concede that Iran halted its nuke program after pressure from regional players who had a strong card to play. With the removal of Saddam and the concern Iraq would acquire nukes, the Iranians had no way to justify to the Saudis and Turks that it needed nukes.

-Steve

TwinSwords 12-14-2007 01:04 AM

Re: <--- Emoticon appears here
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thprop (Post 66429)
Like this - just pick the emoticon from below and it appears next to the message title above.

You can also embed smiley's in the message, like this: :)

And this: :D

And....: ;)

You can use these by typing the keyboard characters for those emoticons (colon followed by a right-bracket, a capital D, or a semi-colon).

Most installations of vBulletin have a little window adjacent to the message window where you can select from a list of Smileys.

For example, this is how the message window looks on the Michigan State University forum. It is pretty much identical to the one we are using, except it has a list of "Smilies" available for insertion in your message:



For some reason, the Smilies pane has been suppressed on this forum. (I could swear it was there earlier today; did they remove it after the first complaint or two?)


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