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Bloggingheads 08-17-2011 08:49 AM

How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 

ImprecisePsychic 08-17-2011 11:15 AM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Byron, you bring up "this odd little sub-genre regarding Perry's manliness" that we're seeing in some of the press.

The fascination for 'manliness' is most sickening to me when it's coming from the arbiters of all things manly: Ann Althouse and Peggy Noonan.

badhatharry 08-17-2011 11:33 AM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ImprecisePsychic (Post 222129)
Byron, you bring up "this odd little sub-genre regarding Perry's manliness" that we're seeing in some of the press.

The fascination for 'manliness' is most sickening to me when it's coming from the arbiters of all things manly: Ann Althouse and Peggy Noonan.

Does Ann Althouse talk a lot about manliness? I don't follow her that closely. If so, why does it sicken you?

chamblee54 08-17-2011 12:48 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
The New Yorker article on Mrs. Bachmann had some interesting information about her "career" as a "tax lawyer". It seems like she spent a great deal of time on maternity leave. (The IRS had a generous policy.) She was not taken seriously by her co workers in that office.
Is maternity leave an entitlement? Is this the sort of program Mrs. Bachmann would cut? Or, did G-d tell her, through her husband, that having babies was more important than being a tax lawyer?
chamblee54

badhatharry 08-17-2011 02:24 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chamblee54 (Post 222138)
The New Yorker article on Mrs. Bachmann had some interesting information about her "career" as a "tax lawyer". It seems like she spent a great deal of time on maternity leave. (The IRS had a generous policy.) She was not taken seriously by her co workers in that office.
Is maternity leave an entitlement? Is this the sort of program Mrs. Bachmann would cut? Or, did G-d tell her, through her husband, that having babies was more important than being a tax lawyer?
chamblee54

This couldn't possibly be news to anyone who is paying attention. For the NewYorker to spend ten pages covering this is a colossal waste of time, especially for the reader unless that person also enjoys watching train wrecks.

AemJeff 08-17-2011 02:51 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 222143)
This couldn't possibly be news to anyone who is paying attention. For the NewYorker to spend ten pages covering this is a colossal waste of time, especially for the reader unless that person also enjoys watching train wrecks.

That's a deeply strange thing to have said about news coverage wrt the career of a major figure in the Republican Presidential primary leadup. Certainly it's true that not everyone has been paying attention up 'til now, and it's just as certain that this is illuminating and useful.

bkjazfan 08-17-2011 03:09 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Title of an article in the L.A. Times: "On day 938 of his presidency, Obama says he'll have a jobs program in a month or so."

badhatharry 08-17-2011 04:09 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 222145)
That's a deeply strange thing to have said about news coverage wrt the career of a major figure in the Republican Presidential primary leadup. Certainly it's true that not everyone has been paying attention up 'til now, and it's just as certain that this is illuminating and useful.

Well you know me, deeply strange R us.

Everyone knows Michelle Bachmann is seriously light weight, especially people who read the New Yorker. Besides, I doubt anyone who reads that magazine would vote for her. It's purely schadenfreude...but they're entitled.

badhatharry 08-17-2011 04:10 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkjazfan (Post 222147)
Title of an article in the L.A. Times: "On day 938 of his presidency, Obama says he'll have a jobs program in a month or so."

Some things just can't be rushed.

miceelf 08-17-2011 04:29 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 222159)
Some things just can't be rushed.

This is not at all an excuse for Obama, as I agree he should have had a jobs program long ago, but the congressional GOP has no plan and no plan to have a plan.

So, better late than never, I suppose.

badhatharry 08-17-2011 05:17 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 222163)
, but the congressional GOP has no plan and no plan to have a plan.

I guess that's because they don't think it's the government's job to provide jobs.

apple 08-17-2011 05:26 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 222172)
I guess that's because they don't think it's the government's job to provide jobs.

In that case, they wouldn't be blaming Obama for not creating jobs.

bkjazfan 08-17-2011 06:17 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
How about forming a jobs commission. I know Jeffrey Immelt of GE is suppose to be handling this but he appears to be busy by making sure GE doesn't have to pay taxes and sending his jobs to China. Have this commission make a report, then ignore everything they recommend.

badhatharry 08-17-2011 06:22 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 222175)
In that case, they wouldn't be blaming Obama for not creating jobs.

Are they actually doing that?

badhatharry 08-17-2011 06:25 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkjazfan (Post 222185)
How about forming a jobs commission. I know Jeffrey Immelt of GE is suppose to be handling this but he appears to be busy avoiding taxes for GE sending his jobs to China. Have a commission make a report, then ignore everything they recommend.

I think I heard today on Morning Joe, before I had my joe, that someone was talking about the Federal government having a Department of Jobs.

But you're right, we need to have a committee to study this

apple 08-17-2011 06:38 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 222186)
Are they actually doing that?

I presume you have never heard Boehner's "where are the jobs?"-line http://www.speaker.gov/News/Document...umentID=250525

Or this: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0811/61576.html

badhatharry 08-17-2011 07:26 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 222194)
I presume you have never heard Boehner's "where are the jobs?"-line http://www.speaker.gov/News/Document...umentID=250525

Or this: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0811/61576.html

Quote:

The American people are still asking the question: where are the jobs? Today’s report is more evidence that the misguided ‘stimulus’ spending binge, excessive regulations, and an overwhelming national debt continue to hold back private-sector job creation in our country. Legislation that raises taxes on small business job creators, fails to cut spending by a larger amount than a debt limit hike, or fails to restrain future spending will only make things worse – and won’t pass the House. Republicans are focused on jobs, and are ready to stop Washington from spending money it doesn’t have and make serious changes to the way we spend taxpayer dollars. We hope our Democratic counterparts will join us and seize this opportunity to do something big for our economy and our future, and help get Americans back to work.”
I think Boehner is talking about the government getting out of the way...not creating jobs. The only jobs the government creates are government jobs and you know how republicans feel about those.

Hal Morris 08-17-2011 07:36 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 222143)
... unless that person also enjoys watching train wrecks.

Isn't that what half the news is about?

Hal Morris 08-17-2011 07:39 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 222163)
This is not at all an excuse for Obama, as I agree he should have had a jobs program long ago, but the congressional GOP has no plan and no plan to have a plan.

Oh they have a plan: constant attacks on Obama for not having a plan and failing to lead, while making sure nothing can get through Congress except tax cuts, which they claim will create jobs but which wouldn't even if Obama totally bought it.

apple 08-17-2011 07:39 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 222204)
I think Boehner is talking about the government getting out of the way...not creating jobs. The only jobs the government creates are government jobs and you know how republicans feel about those.

If you looked at the second link, you'd know that your interpretation is false. Nonetheless, people tend not to make a distinction between 'creating' government jobs and creating jobs in general. For example, Perry is supposedly creating jobs in Texas. So why are Republicans asking where the jobs are? Apparently, Obama should be doing something to create jobs, and he isn't.

Of course, the dirty truth is that they're just trying to make political hay about something, when they knew that they don't have the cure for the unemployment problem. This is normal for politicians.

Hal Morris 08-17-2011 07:41 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 222175)
In that case, they wouldn't be blaming Obama for not creating jobs.

Not if they were sticklers for consistency.

badhatharry 08-17-2011 08:20 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 222209)
Nonetheless, people tend not to make a distinction between 'creating' government jobs and creating jobs in general.

I do. It's stupid not to.

badhatharry 08-17-2011 08:22 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hal Morris (Post 222206)
Isn't that what half the news is about?

Yeah, I made a comment a couple of threads back about the monday morning after the S&P downgrade. Every channel had it's camera turned to the opening bell. Reality TV!

apple 08-17-2011 08:25 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 222217)
I do. It's stupid not to.

It's stupid to regard any job as having been "created" by the person in the position of the executive at any given time. Of course, that doesn't prevent people from believing that Bill Clinton is a great president, just because his presidency happened to coincide with a period when private enterprises created many new jobs - as if he played any significant role in that.

That is also why it's stupid to attack Obama for not creating enough jobs.

sugarkang 08-17-2011 08:27 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 222187)
I think I heard today on Morning Joe, before I had my joe, that someone was talking about the Federal government having a Department of Jobs.

But you're right, we need to have a committee to study this

Did you see this on Perry? I don't know if it's "true," but it's just as legitimate as anything Krugman's put out. It's been vetted. Looks like he lets tons of Mexicans in, though. How do you feel about that?

badhatharry 08-17-2011 08:28 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 222209)
If you looked at the second link, you'd know that your interpretation is false.

PS. I don't see anywhere in the Politico piece where Cantor is blaming Obama for not creating jobs. But several Democrats talked about Obama creating jobs. It's a basic difference in rhetoric that speaks volumes about political philosophy.

apple 08-17-2011 08:32 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 222223)
PS. I don't see anywhere in the Politico piece where Cantor is blaming Obama for not creating jobs. But several Democrats talked about Obama creating jobs. It's a basic difference in rhetoric that speaks volumes about political philosophy.

It reflects political expediency, that's all. If McCain had been elected, Republicans would be talking about creating jobs, and Democrats would be loath to give the executive credit for having created jobs.

Also, what I referred to was this part: “We welcome him to our ongoing efforts to help create jobs, and look forward to seeing a detailed plan next month."

badhatharry 08-17-2011 08:38 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 222220)
That is also why it's stupid to attack Obama for not creating enough jobs.

Again, I'd like you to show me where the republicans are doing that. I'm not saying they aren't but I'm not aware of it.

apple 08-17-2011 08:46 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 222227)
Again, I'd like you to show me where the republicans are doing that. I'm not saying they aren't but I'm not aware of it.

I've quoted it. It's also ridiculous to attack him for supposedly standing in the way of job creation, when the laws are similar to when Bush was president, and I didn't hear Republicans say that the current laws were a problem back then, not even when he was the first president to lose jobs since Herbert Hoover (in his first term)

badhatharry 08-17-2011 08:51 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 222225)
It reflects political expediency, that's all. If McCain had been elected, Republicans would be talking about creating jobs, and Democrats would be loath to give the executive credit for having created jobs.

What executive? The president? I would say that the republicans would be very careful to say that an atmosphere where job creation is encouraged is as close as they'd come to claiming responsibility for job creation.

badhatharry 08-17-2011 08:54 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 222230)
I've quoted it.

not really, but never mond.

Quote:

It's also ridiculous to attack him for supposedly standing in the way of job creation, when the laws are similar to when Bush was president, and I didn't hear Republicans say that the current laws were a problem back then, not even when he was the first president to lose jobs since Herbert Hoover (in his first term
I don't know about the Herbert Hoover or Bush, but I would say that one real way that Obama has stood in the way of job creation is the passage of the Affordable Care Act.

apple 08-17-2011 08:55 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 222231)
What executive? The president?

What executive do you think? The Alien Center for the Control of Planet Earth?

Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 222231)
I would say that the republicans would be very careful to say that an atmosphere where job creation is encouraged is as close as they'd come to claiming responsibility for job creation.

Because they are such noble, truthful and non-Machiavellian spirits, who would never stretch the truth to gain political advantage?

apple 08-17-2011 08:55 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 222233)
I don't know about the Herbert Hoover or Bush, but I would say that one real way that Obama has stood in the way of job creation is the passage of the Affordable Care Act.

I am not aware of any way Obamacare stands in the way of job creation, because it has no effect on employers.

badhatharry 08-17-2011 09:03 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 222221)
Did you see this on Perry? I don't know if it's "true," but it's just as legitimate as anything Krugman's put out. It's been vetted.

I am chart challenged. But I do have two itty bitty questions. About the unemployment...if this can be attributed to people migrating to Texas, how do they do an accurate count? From what I understand you can only collect unemployment from a state where you were employed. Also, what is the relationship to Krugman?

Quote:

Looks like he lets tons of Mexicans in, though. How do you feel about that
Are they in the country legally? I have no problem with legal immigration.

badhatharry 08-17-2011 09:05 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 222235)
I am not aware of any way Obamacare stands in the way of job creation, because it has no effect on employers.

I think you need to read up a little on this. If you are interested I can supply you with lots of links.

badhatharry 08-17-2011 09:13 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 222234)
What executive do you think? The Alien Center for the Control of Planet Earth?

ooops, sorry.

Quote:

Because they are such noble, truthful and non-Machiavellian spirits, who would never stretch the truth to gain political advantage
No, because it would go against the grain of their constituency to hear a politician say that he created jobs.

sugarkang 08-17-2011 10:08 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 222236)
Are they in the country legally? I have no problem with legal immigration.

No, I wouldn't think you did. I know he supports the Dream Act, and I think he's permissive about illegal workers as well.

sugarkang 08-17-2011 10:18 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 222236)
I am chart challenged. But I do have two itty bitty questions. About the unemployment...if this can be attributed to people migrating to Texas, how do they do an accurate count? From what I understand you can only collect unemployment from a state where you were employed. Also, what is the relationship to Krugman?

Explanation on counting the unemployed. They use surveys instead of unemployment insurance data.

So, this is neat. Krugman wrote a column about Perry being a non-miracle because unemployment is still the same. The chart you saw earlier reflects a similar unemployment rate compared to the rest of the nation, except until you look at the population figures. It turns out Texas is actually creating a crap ton of new jobs, but because so many out of work people are moving into Texas from other states, the unemployment rate stays roughly the same. Matt Yglesias confirmed this in one of his recent posts.

miceelf 08-17-2011 10:39 PM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 222172)
I guess that's because they don't think it's the government's job to provide jobs.

We both know there are lots of ways that governments can help create jobs other than provide them. Republicans claim that the already in place subsidies to big oil, for example, create jobs.

Sulla the Dictator 08-18-2011 01:37 AM

Re: How Soon It Fades (Ben Smith & Byron York)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 222209)
If you looked at the second link, you'd know that your interpretation is false. Nonetheless, people tend not to make a distinction between 'creating' government jobs and creating jobs in general. For example, Perry is supposedly creating jobs in Texas. So why are Republicans asking where the jobs are? Apparently, Obama should be doing something to create jobs, and he isn't.

The Republican "job creation" plan is to remove the burden of regulation which, despite popular media play, is not MOSTLY about "clean water" and "clean air". A lot of that stuff is actually a mask for environmentalism, which has infected the bureaucracy and slows down numerous building projects across the country. Indeed, when Obama finally conceded that the stimulus wasn't really "shovel ready" at all, what he neglects to mention is that "environmental impact" studies often are what stall them. Particularly energy sector jobs.

Even this "green energy" business, which I personally find a little pie in the sky, is delayed by environmentalists in the guise of regulators. Consider the criteria: "ZERO risk" (Price that out). Aesthetics. Whether it is a nuissance to people. The regular complaints and harassment from local noisemakers.

Forget about a useful coal plant or factory or abattoir or nuclear plant, you can't build one of these wind farms or solar fields.

That's whats laughable about things like Rachel Maddow standing in front of the Hoover Dam, talking about how easily the project got started. If Congress approved the same exact project, it would be five to ten years before it even got approved by the bureaucracy, IF it passed a "negligent impact" grade on an environmental impact study. And who thinks a dam like that would pass?


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