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Bloggingheads 05-18-2011 09:51 AM

The Freedom Cage (Ann Althouse & Matt Welch)
 

badhatharry 05-18-2011 11:07 AM

Re: The Freedom Cage (Ann Althouse & Matt Welch)
 
Good conversation.
I have always despised Schwarzenegger. He had no interest in being a good governor but only wanted another kind of power and more prestige. That was clear during the campaign and became clearer as time went on. Since I backed a real candidate, Tom McClintock, I was doubly disappointed. It was also at this time that I realized the Republican party has no soul because they backed Arnold. California and our country are poorer for people like him. Where the hell are the good guys??

I read Matt's article about DSK which was really about Bernard Henri-Levy, the French philosopher. How does one get that title? My favorite quote about Levy was from Marianne Pearl who described him as a man whose intelligence is destroyed by his own ego.

again where are the good guys??

I've seen Levy on Charlie Rose. I think I've also seen Schwarzenegger on Charlie Rose. Maybe this is all Charlie Rose's fault.

I thought the discussion about the difference between French and American women was fascinating. French women are tougher but tolerate ass-grabbing while American women are wimps and don't.

As for government buildings, my libertarian political science teacher thought they should all be built of cinder block.

Thought of the day: Google is not God.

Florian 05-18-2011 11:47 AM

Re: The Freedom Cage (Ann Althouse & Matt Welch)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 209408)
I read Matt's article about DSK which was really about Bernard Henri-Levy, the French philosopher. How does one get that title? My favorite quote about Levy was from Marianne Pearl who described him as a man whose intelligence is destroyed by his own ego.

Did you read BHL's article as well? Matt didn't understand what BHL meant when he said the American system of justice is "accusatory." He was pointing to a well-known difference between the American and the French systems of justice, and the role of the "juge d'instruction," a judge who intervenes immediately after an arrest to conduct a preliminary investigation--examining both the evidence "à charge" (accusatory) and the evidence "à décharge" (disculpatory)---before making a recommendation to the "procureur" (state prosecutor), something like the District Attorney, on what legal action needs to be taken. The media circus, perp walk etc. could never occur in France, or can only occur after the juge d'instruction rules. The juge d'instruction, if you like, is a kind of grand jury, but without the jury. Perhaps Matt should ask his French wife about this...

As for BHL, yes he is an egomaniac, but I see nothing wrong in speaking up for the character of a friend and denouncing a rush to judgment before there is a trial.

Quote:

I thought the discussion about the difference between French and American women was fascinating. French women are tougher but tolerate ass-grabbing while American women are wimps and don't.
Curious, I have been riding the Paris metro for many years and I have rarely witnessed ass-grabbing. Maybe I am too near-sighted.... or too far-sighted. Or maybe Matt is just repeating the platitudes of yesteryear. As for his other platitude---that all French politicians are macho boors whose extramarital escapades the press ignores---all I can say is, so what? Besides, when you are familiar with the average French politician, the accusation seems almost ludicrous.

BornAgainDemocrat 05-18-2011 12:23 PM

Not working by law
 
Ann is her own troll. I go to her to get rubbed the wrong way.

Ann Althouse 05-18-2011 12:43 PM

Re: The Freedom Cage (Ann Althouse & Matt Welch)
 
"Ann is her own troll. I go to her to get rubbed the wrong way."

You're like a French woman riding the Metro to get her ass grabbed.

badhatharry 05-18-2011 01:14 PM

Re: The Freedom Cage (Ann Althouse & Matt Welch)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ann Althouse (Post 209421)
"Ann is her own troll. I go to her to get rubbed the wrong way."

You're like a French woman riding the Metro to get her ass grabbed.

ha

badhatharry 05-18-2011 01:22 PM

Re: The Freedom Cage (Ann Althouse & Matt Welch)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Florian (Post 209412)
He was pointing to a well-known difference between the American and the French systems of justice, and the role of the "juge d'instruction," a judge who intervenes immediately after an arrest to conduct a preliminary investigation--examining both the evidence "à charge" (accusatory) and the evidence "à décharge" (disculpatory)---before making a recommendation to the "procureur" (state prosecutor), something like the District Attorney, on what legal action needs to be taken.

I think in America, that is the grand jury's role.

ooops, as you say below. So BHL should respect our backward ways.

Quote:

As for BHL, yes he is an egomaniac, but I see nothing wrong in speaking up for the character of a friend and denouncing a rush to judgment before there is a trial.
Nothing wrong at all and nothing wrong with criticizing it. An egomaniac often gets that reaction to his pronouncements. The reaction to this DSK's alleged malfeasance is the same as the reaction would be to anyone in high office. People love to see the mighty brought low, especially in America. It's sport.

Quote:

Curious, I have been riding the Paris metro for many years and I have rarely witnessed ass-grabbing.
It may be subtle ass grabbing.

thouartgob 05-18-2011 02:05 PM

The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA
 
It is a bit cowardly for those who rail against any version of healthcare universality not to attack the source of all these problems, the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act of 1986 that FORCES hospitals and their enslaved employees to treat people regardless of payment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergen...tive_Labor_Act

This is a classic Moral Hazard argument hasn't been addressed at all. Market Forces should be available to deal with any issues in verification of insurance or sanctions against non-payment.

operative 05-18-2011 02:13 PM

Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thouartgob (Post 209435)
It is a bit cowardly for those who rail against any version of healthcare universality not to attack the source of all these problems, the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act of 1986 that FORCES hospitals and their enslaved employees to treat people regardless of payment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergen...tive_Labor_Act

This is a classic Moral Hazard argument hasn't been addressed at all. Market Forces should be available to deal with any issues in verification of insurance or sanctions against non-payment.

Verification of insurance isn't viable when minutes and even seconds separate life and death. Non-payment, however, is certainly an issue that can be addressed (and often is). I'd favor compelling a person to do work for a hospital to which they are indebted. Hospitals are always looking for volunteers, so people who are unable to pay could simply be 'volunteered'.

Ocean 05-18-2011 02:39 PM

Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thouartgob (Post 209435)
It is a bit cowardly for those who rail against any version of healthcare universality not to attack the source of all these problems, the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act of 1986 that FORCES hospitals and their enslaved employees to treat people regardless of payment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergen...tive_Labor_Act

This is a classic Moral Hazard argument hasn't been addressed at all. Market Forces should be available to deal with any issues in verification of insurance or sanctions against non-payment.

I have a patient who owes the hospital that I work for tens of thousands of dollars accumulated over the last ten years or so. She still has charity care and pays nothing for services. She works as a waitress off the books. Apparently there's no way to collect from her. And the hospital chooses to continue providing services. She's one example among many similar ones.

miceelf 05-18-2011 02:44 PM

Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 209437)
Verification of insurance isn't viable when minutes and even seconds separate life and death. Non-payment, however, is certainly an issue that can be addressed (and often is). I'd favor compelling a person to do work for a hospital to which they are indebted. Hospitals are always looking for volunteers, so people who are unable to pay could simply be 'volunteered'.

Would you want such a person (i.e., one who is compelled, rather than paid, to work at the hospital) to be part of your care, if you were hospitalized?

operative 05-18-2011 03:08 PM

Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 209442)
Would you want such a person (i.e., one who is compelled, rather than paid, to work at the hospital) to be part of your care, if you were hospitalized?

I'm not talking about having them work as actual health care providers. There are plenty of non-medical related areas of work in bigger hospitals--gift shops, food service, front desk help, etc.

chamblee54 05-18-2011 03:09 PM

Re: The Freedom Cage (Ann Althouse & Matt Welch)
 
This is not a laughing matter.
chamblee54

miceelf 05-18-2011 04:53 PM

Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA
 
Yeah, that is what I had in mind. I shudder to think about someone nonvoluntarily providing food service, for example.

operative 05-18-2011 04:56 PM

Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 209451)
Yeah, that is what I had in mind. I shudder to think about someone nonvoluntarily providing food service, for example.

There's way to monitor that ;)

Bear in mind we already have similar programs though generally not hospital-specific: people routinely receive sentences of community service. This would be a community service sentence but a very specific one. If one were thoroughly unwilling to work at the hospital, they could perform service at some other institution which would then pay the hospital the wage value.

AemJeff 05-18-2011 04:58 PM

Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 209451)
Yeah, that is what I had in mind. I shudder to think about someone nonvoluntarily providing food service, for example.

Just call it involuntary servitude and think about what implies about being sick when you can't afford to be. It's an an idea either too dumb or too disgusting to consider very carefully. (Both, I think.)

operative 05-18-2011 05:07 PM

Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 209453)
Just call it involuntary servitude

Or community service, a widely used sentencing technique.

Quote:

and think about what implies about being sick when you can't afford to be.
It implies that there's a way to have what you need, in a viable market system, as opposed to falling into the trap of central planning.

AemJeff 05-18-2011 05:09 PM

Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 209454)
Or community service, a widely used sentencing technique.



It implies that there's a way to have what you need, in a viable market system, as opposed to falling into the trap of central planning.

Sentencing for... being sick without sufficient income? Is that a statutory violation?

piscivorous 05-18-2011 05:13 PM

Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA
 
Guess you would have to have either first or second hand knowledge of how the system allocates punishment to understand just how much community service is used in dealing with the misfortune of running afoul of the way to numerous minor "laws and regulations" used to try and control human behavior.

operative 05-18-2011 05:15 PM

Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 209455)
Sentencing for... being sick without sufficient income? Is that a statutory violation?

Sentencing for making use of someone's labor without the ability to pay for it.

operative 05-18-2011 05:19 PM

Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by piscivorous (Post 209456)
Guess you would have to have either first or second hand knowledge of how the system allocates punishment to understand just how much community service is used in dealing with the misfortune of running afoul of the way to numerous minor "laws and regulations" used to try and control human behavior.

I would be curious to hear if there's a coherent methodology in assigning hours--it seems from my fairly limited familiarity with it that a judge generally chooses a nice round number based on the severity of the crime. I would try to estimate the market wage for a given category of labor and then assign the number of hours necessary to bring that up to what the person owes the Hospital.

So, say they owe $5,000. They agree to work in the gift shop of the hospital. You estimate the labor worth to be $9 an hour. That means about 550 hours. 5 hours a week would mean 110 hours, which could be done in just over two years.

piscivorous 05-18-2011 05:20 PM

Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA
 
Yes we all know how psychologically devastating it is for those receiving a benefit actually be required to do something to try and work of it's cost. How barbaric!

AemJeff 05-18-2011 05:37 PM

Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by piscivorous (Post 209460)
Yes we all know how psychologically devastating it is for those receiving a benefit actually be required to do something to try and work of it's cost. How barbaric!

Slavery is illegal. Punishing people because they're ill is unconscionable. The notion we're discussing is idiotic and counter to our legal tradition.

operative 05-18-2011 05:58 PM

Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 209462)
Slavery is illegal.

Theft of services is illegal. Creating a system in which people can avoid going to jail for taking someone's services without paying them for them, or having to declare bankruptcy, is not illegal.

Quote:

Punishing people because they're ill is unconscionable.
They're not being punished for being ill. They're being expected to pay for what they use.

I suppose if I am hungry I can steal your food. If I don't have a home I can knock on your door and demand to sleep in your house. After all, I need food and shelter. And if you expect me to pay for it, then you're trying to make me a slave.

Diane1976 05-18-2011 08:39 PM

Re: The Freedom Cage (Ann Althouse & Matt Welch)
 
I thought Ann was going to post the Wisconsin furlough regulation requiring people not to work on certain days. I don't understand why she couldn't claim to have read a Supreme Court decision, or whatever, for personal reasons, even in the unlikely event that she was accused of working at home when she wasn't supposed to.

I work for government. I, and many other people I know, do extra work on our own time at home for various reasons, regularly, and would do so if we had such a thing as furlough days here.

Diane1976 05-18-2011 09:18 PM

Re: The Freedom Cage (Ann Althouse & Matt Welch)
 
I thought the snarky gossip about Arnold S. and his wife and the smirky French culture bashing and generalizations in this diavlog were tasteless. Remind myself to give these two a pass next time.

badhatharry 05-18-2011 10:10 PM

Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thouartgob (Post 209435)
It is a bit cowardly for those who rail against any version of healthcare universality not to attack the source of all these problems, the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act of 1986 that FORCES hospitals and their enslaved employees to treat people regardless of payment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergen...tive_Labor_Act

This is a classic Moral Hazard argument hasn't been addressed at all. Market Forces should be available to deal with any issues in verification of insurance or sanctions against non-payment.

Are you being facetious? Were you unaware of this? I rail about this all the time. To force hospitals to treat everyone ends up shifting the cost to people who actually pay.

My favorite part is that hospitals must treat people regardless of legal status. Who thought that was a good idea? It's not a magnet or anything, right?

badhatharry 05-18-2011 10:30 PM

Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 209465)
Theft of services is illegal. Creating a system in which people can avoid going to jail for taking someone's services without paying them for them, or having to declare bankruptcy, is not illegal.



They're not being punished for being ill. They're being expected to pay for what they use.

I suppose if I am hungry I can steal your food. If I don't have a home I can knock on your door and demand to sleep in your house. After all, I need food and shelter. And if you expect me to pay for it, then you're trying to make me a slave.

So I know that your church has a pretty sophisticated system for helping people out. Do they need to be members? Are they required to pay back?

operative 05-18-2011 10:40 PM

Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 209491)
So I know that your church has a pretty sophisticated system for helping people out. Do they need to be members? Are they required to pay back?

Most LDS aid actually goes to non-members (and the church is pretty much the most efficient aid-dispersing organization in the world, so I won't pass up the opportunity to brag). But (voluntary) private charity is great. The enemy is central planning.

AemJeff 05-18-2011 10:41 PM

Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 209488)
Are you being facetious? Were you unaware of this? I rail about this all the time. To force hospitals to treat everyone ends up shifting the cost to people who actually pay.

My favorite part is that hospitals must treat people regardless of legal status. Who thought that was a good idea? It's not a magnet or anything, right?

So you think it's ok to let people, say, bleed to death if they're not properly documented? Six year old kids with broken arms shouldn't be treated because daddy finds jobs in the parking lot at Home Depot?

Starwatcher162536 05-18-2011 10:42 PM

Conflate! conflate! conflate!
 
It's incredibly telling that Matt and Ann doesn't seem to distinguish between (one class of people thinking the tastes of another class of people are tacky and then seeking to harness the power of the state to curtail whatever is perceived as tacky) and (the state regulating what type of light-bulbs* people use in order to draw out how long society will be able to utilize a limited resource.)

*I'm somewhat ambivalent about this particular measure btw

uncle ebeneezer 05-18-2011 10:56 PM

Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA
 
It's kindof scary just where conservative fantasies go, isn't it?

miceelf 05-18-2011 10:59 PM

Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 209458)
Sentencing for making use of someone's labor without the ability to pay for it.

I have one word for you: children.

And a more general point. the most costly in terms of health care expenditures are the elderly, especially those who are near the end of life and will never wake up (a LOT of end life care is done on people who are essentially in comas).
Not sure how one will squeeze some community service out of them (in the world in which Ryan's plan is in effect, and they've already burned through their happy meal health care vouchers). Or would you beat the bushes for their relatives and have the relatives do community service, essentially punishing them for the decision made by their elderly parents, or the decision made by the doctors treating their unconscious elderly parents?

miceelf 05-18-2011 11:02 PM

Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 209459)
So, say they owe $5,000. They agree to work in the gift shop of the hospital. You estimate the labor worth to be $9 an hour. That means about 550 hours. 5 hours a week would mean 110 hours, which could be done in just over two years.

Great, two years of service for a very minor injury, as that's what 5K will run you.

A really serious injury (which also has a strange likelihood to impact earning potential) or a chronic illness and we are talkign about decades.

Even the ancient israelites had a jubilee.

operative 05-18-2011 11:03 PM

Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 209498)
I have one word for you: children.

I'm talking about adults, not children.

Quote:

And a more general point. the most costly in terms of health care expenditures are the elderly, especially those who are near the end of life and will never wake up (a LOT of end life care is done on people who are essentially in comas).
Not sure how one will squeeze some community service out of them (in the world in which Ryan's plan is in effect, and they've already burned through their happy meal health care vouchers). Or would you beat the bushes for their relatives and have the relatives do community service, essentially punishing them for the decision made by their elderly parents, or the decision made by the doctors treating their unconscious elderly parents?
Here's a better way: in cases where they are hooked up to machines and aren't going to recover, give the family a little bit of time and then an ultimatum: either the family pays to continue to keep the person on the machines or the person comes off the machines.

miceelf 05-18-2011 11:04 PM

Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 209465)
Theft of services is illegal. Creating a system in which people can avoid going to jail for taking someone's services without paying them for them, or having to declare bankruptcy, is not illegal.

You're in a car accdient and knocked unconscious. The ambulance takes you to the hospital where you are treated and eventually revived.

In what sense did you engage in "theft of services" which has traditionally included motive of some kind?

miceelf 05-18-2011 11:07 PM

Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 209501)
Here's a better way: in cases where they are hooked up to machines and aren't going to recover, give the family a little bit of time and then an ultimatum: either the family pays to continue to keep the person on the machines or the person comes off the machines.

Wasn't your party the one that was all hepped up about Terri Schiavo and more recently about supposed death panels?

operative 05-18-2011 11:07 PM

Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 209500)
Great, two years of service for a very minor injury, as that's what 5K will run you.

People shouldn't go to the hospital with a very minor injury.

Quote:

A really serious injury (which also has a strange likelihood to impact earning potential) or a chronic illness and we are talkign about decades.
Hospitals in those situations have various incentives to offer discounts. For instance, doctors in those circumstances may wave their fees. The hospitals may reduce the overall charge.

I know someone who has no insurance and ended up in the hispital with (if I remember correctly) a bad infection. She owes them around $10,000. The hospital worked out a payment plan with her. It's entirely reasonable.

badhatharry 05-18-2011 11:12 PM

Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 209493)
So you think it's ok to let people, say, bleed to death if they're not properly documented? Six year old kids with broken arms shouldn't be treated because daddy finds jobs in the parking lot at Home Depot?

No. Emergencies should be treated.

badhatharry 05-18-2011 11:14 PM

Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 209492)
Most LDS aid actually goes to non-members (and the church is pretty much the most efficient aid-dispersing organization in the world, so I won't pass up the opportunity to brag). But (voluntary) private charity is great. The enemy is central planning.

I agree, voluntary charity is great.


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