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Bloggingheads 06-22-2011 08:56 PM

American Originals (Conor Friedersdorf & Reihan Salam)
 

operative 06-22-2011 09:04 PM

Re: American Originals
 
This looks like fun. I like Reihan's commentary, so I'm anxious to start it.

graz 06-22-2011 09:25 PM

Re: American Originals
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 213673)
This looks like fun. I like Reihan's commentary, so I'm anxious to start it.

Sure ... It's soft-core libertarianism

sugarkang 06-22-2011 10:03 PM

Re: American Originals
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by graz (Post 213681)

lol.

See stephanie? I love trolling. It's a fine line between funny and asshole. This is most definitely a win.

Hume's Bastard 06-22-2011 10:21 PM

Re: American Originals (Conor Friedersdorf & Reihan Salam)
 
It's been a few days now, and no mention of the Wisconsin SC's ruling on collective bargaining or Florida's decision to drugs-test welfare recipients. But, sure, let's keep talking about next year's presidential race and whatever else Salam was reading. Oh, and plug a website!

badhatharry 06-22-2011 11:33 PM

Re: American Originals (Conor Friedersdorf & Reihan Salam)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hume's Bastard (Post 213700)
It's been a few days now, and no mention of the Wisconsin SC's ruling on collective bargaining or Florida's decision to drugs-test welfare recipients. But, sure, let's keep talking about next year's presidential race and whatever else Salam was reading. Oh, and plug a website!

Be careful what you wish for. Ann Althouse is an expert on all things Wisconsin. I bet she'll be talking about it soon.

chiwhisoxx 06-23-2011 12:28 AM

Re: American Originals (Conor Friedersdorf & Reihan Salam)
 
Reeeeeeeeeeiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiihhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaan nnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CrowsMakeTools 06-23-2011 02:36 AM

Reihan on Texas and the Perry Record (Conor Friedersdorf & Reihan Salam)
 
Reihan seems to have done some research on Perry record in Texas, a helpful preview, perhaps, as Perry prepares to enter the race.

I'm somewhat puzzled, however, by Reihan's sunny assessment of the Texas housing market. Home prices are certainly relatively low in Texas, but the foreclosure rate is relatively high (10th place among the states), credit scores are terrible (49th place among the states) and the percentage of home ownership (44th) is low. Texas also has high rates of income disparity, 9th in income inequality between rich and poor, and 5th in income inequality between rich in middle class. These factors are likely to limit the growth of opportunities for Texans who are getting jobs now to accumulate capital and enter the middle class, with all its bourgeois amenities and opportunities. And these voters are the key to continuing Republican hegemony in Texas.

Certainly there are many social, economic, and demographic factors that contribute to these statistics, beyond Republican public policy and Perry's performance as governor. Texas has a relatively youthful population, and young people are going to have more limited credit histories and lower average credit scores. But as far as creating a vigorous and expanding middle class, the Texas record will be open to considerable debate and scrutiny.

The Lone Star State has low taxes, business-friendly, pro-growth policies, minimal public services, and lots of people without health insurance. This is pretty close to the consensus Republican policy agenda.

For more on Texas's relative standing, see state senator Eliot Shapleigh's report, "Texas on the Brink," at: http://shapleigh.org/system/reportin...documents3.pdf

And thanks to Conor, in one of links, for again pointing to Perry's record on capital punishment and his behavior in the Willingham case.

badhatharry 06-23-2011 09:32 AM

Re: Reihan on Texas and the Perry Record (Conor Friedersdorf & Reihan Salam)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CrowsMakeTools (Post 213743)
Reihan seems to have done some research on Perry record in Texas, a helpful preview, perhaps, as Perry prepares to enter the race...
And thanks to Conor, in one of links, for again pointing to Perry's record on capital punishment and his behavior in the Willingham case.

I read your post with interest. I haven't listened to the diavlog yet and I do read Reihan.

I gotta tell you all of these statistics make my head spin. Foreclosure rates, credit scores, home ownership...Are these supposed to mean something about Perry? Does it have anything to say about the people who live in Texas? Does it have anything to say about the economy? Do you think that people having or not having health insurance may be a reflection of something other than Perry's policies?

I know I'm leaping here but it seems that the one thing he does have control over, taxes on businesses, have been such that businesses like to be in Texas. I think we need to stop thinking of politicians as responsible for everything.

sugarkang 06-23-2011 09:42 AM

Re: Reihan on Texas and the Perry Record (Conor Friedersdorf & Reihan Salam)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 213770)
I think we need to stop thinking of politicians as responsible for everything.

Amen, brother. (sister?)

stephanie 06-23-2011 11:38 AM

Re: American Originals
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 213690)
lol.

See stephanie? I love trolling. It's a fine line between funny and asshole. This is most definitely a win.

Depends on what you want in a forum, and how you want people to take your posts. I'm all for humor if it's actually funny.

stephanie 06-23-2011 11:43 AM

Re: American Originals (Conor Friedersdorf & Reihan Salam)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hume's Bastard (Post 213700)
It's been a few days now, and no mention of the Wisconsin SC's ruling on collective bargaining or Florida's decision to drugs-test welfare recipients. But, sure, let's keep talking about next year's presidential race and whatever else Salam was reading. Oh, and plug a website!

Right -- my biggest complaint about the diavlogs is that there's often a severe lack of interesting thinking when it comes to planning them. I'm not sure if this comes from TPTB or if the 'heads have more influence over the topics than it sometimes seems. However, whenever some dumb left/right issue of the day happens, it seems bloggingheads has to overdo the mainstream media in its endless coverage. Same with discussion of the horserace topics generally. Bloggingheads has an opportunity to really add something to media coverage; it's too bad that it so often falls into the same lazy patterns that the mainstream media does more generally.

This same criticism would fit what Operative and Florian and others have said about the focus on the Middle East as the sole region outside the US to give substantial attention to. I'm more forgiving here, since it's true that there's less commentary on the threads about these kinds of diavlogs (see the old UN diavlogs), but as I've said before, I don't think that necessarily reflects a lack of interest in the less-commented-on topics.

Probably Bob needs diavlogs that provoke attention in the mainstream media, though, so of course that means that the faults of the mainstream media get echoed. Sigh.

stephanie 06-23-2011 11:50 AM

Re: Reihan on Texas and the Perry Record (Conor Friedersdorf & Reihan Salam)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 213773)
Amen, brother. (sister?)

It's almost as if Perry wouldn't claim the job growth rate in TX or other such factors as why he is supposedly such a good choice for president! Or, hmm, maybe the Republicans won't be blaming Obama for the economy? No, we all know that's not true.

Now, I actually would agree if we were to assert that the economy fluctuates and the president in office when it happens (Bush, Bush the dad, Hoover) or when it is bad (Obama, Ford, Carter) tends to get too much blame, whereas the president when it's good (Reagan, Clinton) tends to get too much credit. But to both talk up Perry as fab because of the TX economy and then to bemoan criticism of the TX economy as unfair to attribute to him (or just too HARD to consider; math is HARD, y'all!) is the spinniest of spin and so on its face ridiculous that surely no one who wanted to be taken seriously would try it.

AemJeff 06-23-2011 11:58 AM

Re: American Originals
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanie (Post 213798)
Depends on what you want in a forum, and how you want people to take your posts. I'm all for humor if it's actually funny.

That was actually funny.

look 06-23-2011 12:02 PM

Re: American Originals
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 213803)
That was actually funny.

I concur.

badhatharry 06-23-2011 12:14 PM

Re: Reihan on Texas and the Perry Record (Conor Friedersdorf & Reihan Salam)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanie (Post 213802)
It's almost as if Perry wouldn't claim the job growth rate in TX or other such factors as why he is supposedly such a good choice for president! Or, hmm, maybe the Republicans won't be blaming Obama for the economy? No, we all know that's not true.

Now, I actually would agree if we were to assert that the economy fluctuates and the president in office when it happens (Bush, Bush the dad, Hoover) or when it is bad (Obama, Ford, Carter) tends to get too much blame, whereas the president when it's good (Reagan, Clinton) tends to get too much credit. But to both talk up Perry as fab because of the TX economy and then to bemoan criticism of the TX economy as unfair to attribute to him (or just too HARD to consider; math is HARD, y'all!) is the spinniest of spin and so on its face ridiculous that surely no one who wanted to be taken seriously would try it.

But his tax policies were mentioned, at least by me. Those may be and probably are responsible for job rate increase. There may even be something to be learned from that.

I, for one, don't blame Obama for the economy. What I criticize him for is spending and the claim that spending is going to fix the economy. I also don't like ACA much and think it has contributed to a lot of the confusion that exists today.

chamblee54 06-23-2011 12:31 PM

Re: American Originals (Conor Friedersdorf & Reihan Salam)
 
The opposite of pro is con. We are all familiar with the joke about congress and progress, but there are other words where this meme produces interesting results. It is a profusion of confusion.
In this clip , it is tough to tell whether Mr. Friedersdorf (spell check suggestions: Friendliness , Friedcake) is saying constitutional or prostitutional. The two concepts have many similarities.
chamblee54

stephanie 06-23-2011 12:31 PM

Re: American Originals
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 213803)
That was actually funny.

Yeah, I agree.

sugarkang 06-23-2011 02:37 PM

Re: Reihan on Texas and the Perry Record (Conor Friedersdorf & Reihan Salam)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanie (Post 213802)
Or, hmm, maybe the Republicans won't be blaming Obama for the economy? No, we all know that's not true.

John McWhorter said something really interesting regarding this point, though it was along the lines of race. (Paraphrasing) You have to differentiate between the sincerity of the politician making a statement versus its utility as a tactic for winning votes. So, liberals will be quick to point to racist statements that Republicans say, or intimate through "code," but to what extent is it used because it's just politically expedient?

Does it absolve the statement and the person making it? Of course not. But it's also not necessarily true that the person is the racist that he's accused of being. Elections cost a lot of money and political consultants have all the stats and figures that affect public opinion.

Now, to some extent I buy this argument. And if you buy it, you have to wonder to what extent do Republicans think it's actually Obama's fault vs. political supporters who spread these ideas around for the purpose of winning.

I don't think any of the current mainstream candidates can do anything about the economy. In all likelihood, this rabid right winger is going to vote Obama. "John McCain doesn't wanna talk about the economy; so, I'm gonna keep talkin' about the economy." - 2008

operative 06-23-2011 02:45 PM

Re: Reihan on Texas and the Perry Record (Conor Friedersdorf & Reihan Salam)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 213845)
John McWhorter said something really interesting regarding this point, though it was along the lines of race. (Paraphrasing) You have to differentiate between the sincerity of the politician making a statement versus its utility as a tactic for winning votes. So, liberals will be quick to point to racist statements that Republicans say, or intimate through "code," but to what extent is it used because it's just politically expedient?

Does it absolve the statement and the person making it? Of course not. But it's also not necessarily true that the person is the racist that he's being accused of being. Elections cost a lot of money and political consultants have all the stats and figures that affect public opinion.

Now, to some extent I buy this argument. And if you buy it, you have to wonder to what extent do Republicans think it's actually Obama's fault vs. political supporters who spread these ideas around for the purpose of winning.

I don't think any of the current mainstream candidates can do anything about the economy. In all likelihood, this rabid right winger is going to vote Obama. "John McCain doesn't wanna talk about the economy; so, I'm gonna keep talkin' about the economy." - 2008

Say what now? Wouldn't it make more sense to vote libertarian?

sugarkang 06-23-2011 03:01 PM

Re: Reihan on Texas and the Perry Record (Conor Friedersdorf & Reihan Salam)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 213850)
Say what now? Wouldn't it make more sense to vote libertarian?

Well, I mentioned in another thread that I'd vote for Ron Paul if he made it to the generals. I just gave him money and even gave him money in 2008 for the first big money bomb (pushed him over that $6 million mark so the press would finally stop ignoring him).

I'll either pick him or Herman Cain in the primaries. However, it won't matter for the generals, because, you know, Cali. This is probably what you mean because it's a wasted vote, anyway, so why not third party? And the answer, I suppose, is that unless we cap donations, there's no chance in hell that a 3rd party will ever spring up.

Also, I actually like Obama. I don't expect political leaders to be moral leaders, but whether I like it or not, many voters expect them to be. To that extent, a big consideration for voting is whether or not he can affect the culture in a positive way. Plus, I'm pretty sure he's not going to get busted sending pictures of his abs on Twitter. I don't expect the President to be a moral leader, but I also hate it when he embarrasses me.

operative 06-23-2011 03:03 PM

Re: Reihan on Texas and the Perry Record (Conor Friedersdorf & Reihan Salam)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 213859)
Well, I mentioned in another thread that I'd vote for Ron Paul if he made it to the generals. I just gave him money and even gave him money in 2008 for the first big money bomb (pushed him over that $6 million mark so the press would finally stop ignoring him).

I'll either pick him or Herman Cain in the primaries. However, it won't matter for the generals, because, you know, Cali. This is probably what you mean because it's a wasted vote, anyway, so why not third party? And the answer, I suppose, is that unless we cap donations, there's no chance in hell that a 3rd party will ever spring up.

Also, I actually like Obama. I don't expect political leaders to be moral leaders, but whether I like it or not, many voters expect them to be. To that extent, a big consideration for voting is whether or not he can affect the culture in a positive way. Plus, I'm pretty sure he's not going to get busted sending pictures of his abs on Twitter. I don't expect the President to be a moral leader, but I also hate it when he embarrasses me.

Ok then support Romney! ;)

sugarkang 06-23-2011 03:10 PM

Re: Reihan on Texas and the Perry Record (Conor Friedersdorf & Reihan Salam)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 213861)
Ok then support Romney! ;)

Then, I'd probably choose Huntsman. ;)

Don Zeko 06-23-2011 03:11 PM

Re: Reihan on Texas and the Perry Record (Conor Friedersdorf & Reihan Salam)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 213862)
Then, I'd probably choose Huntsman. ;)

I thought you had a problem with wasted votes? That guy is toast, toast, toast.

bkjazfan 06-23-2011 03:20 PM

Re: American Originals (Conor Friedersdorf & Reihan Salam)
 
Hughes Helicopters: An abbreviated history.

Started in California with all the other Hughes divsions. Was a privately held company listed under Hughes Medical in Maryland. Excess money went to pay, benefits, improved technology and the like. At one time was the largest private employer in So. Ca.

Howard dies then GM bought it. Cold war ended, downsizing in the defense industry followed, GM started selling off the various parts they didn't want and also moving a lot of it to Tucson, Az. which is where the helicopter plant went.

This divison was hit by hard times and was ready to fold. Purchased by flamboyant woman (name escapes me) who is head of Patriarchal Investments. Her speciality is taking floundering manufacturing companies and turning them around. Her magic was not lost with the addition of whirly birds.

For economic reasons she decided to move the recovering helicopter company from Arizona to Texas.

Moral: California and Arizonas' loss is a gain for Texas.

look 06-23-2011 03:35 PM

Re: American Originals (Conor Friedersdorf & Reihan Salam)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkjazfan (Post 213867)
Hughes Helicopters: An abbreviated history.

Started in California with all the other Hughes divsions. Was a privately held company listed under Hughes Medical in Maryland. Excess money went to pay, benefits, improved technology and the like. At one time was the largest private employer in So. Ca.

Howard dies then GM bought it. Cold war ended, downsizing in the defense industry followed, GM started selling off the various parts they didn't want and also moving a lot of it to Tucson, Az. which is where the helicopter plant went.

This divison was hit by hard times and was ready to fold. Purchased by flamboyant woman (name escapes me) who is head of Patriarchal Investments. Her speciality is taking floundering manufacturing companies and turning them around. Her magic was not lost with the addition of whirly birds.

For economic reasons she decided to move the recovering helicopter company from Arizona to Texas.

Moral: California and Arizonas' loss is a gain for Texas.

O brave new world. We prospered in the Fifties and Sixties because the rest of the world lay in ruins. By the Seventies, the Japanese were getting in on the automobile thing while American cars declined in quality. I'm under the impression that the Golden Age of the Fifties and Sixties was a fluke, and I wonder how the average worker in America will fare in the long haul, as the cheap labor market rolls around the world.

bkjazfan 06-23-2011 03:41 PM

Re: American Originals (Conor Friedersdorf & Reihan Salam)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by look (Post 213871)
O brave new world. We prospered in the Fifties and Sixties because the rest of the world lay in ruins. By the Seventies, the Japanese were getting in on the automobile thing while American cars declined in quality. I'm under the impression that the Golden Age of the Fifties and Sixties was a fluke, and I wonder how the average worker in America will fare in the long haul, as the cheap labor market rolls around the world.

There's always the Stimulus and QE's a la mode.

sugarkang 06-23-2011 03:52 PM

Re: Reihan on Texas and the Perry Record (Conor Friedersdorf & Reihan Salam)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 213863)
I thought you had a problem with wasted votes? That guy is toast, toast, toast.

Just saying I like Huntsman over Romney. I'm not voting for either.

badhatharry 06-23-2011 04:52 PM

Re: Reihan on Texas and the Perry Record (Conor Friedersdorf & Reihan Salam)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 213845)
I don't think any of the current mainstream candidates can do anything about the economy. In all likelihood, this rabid right winger is going to vote Obama. "John McCain doesn't wanna talk about the economy; so, I'm gonna keep talkin' about the economy." - 2008

When you live in California it doesn't matter who you vote for for president. The Dem will get the electoral vote but I still vote, damn it!

Do you know if independents will be allowed to vote in the Republican presidential primary in California? And is that a nationwide decision by the party or do they go state by state?

sugarkang 06-23-2011 05:02 PM

Re: Reihan on Texas and the Perry Record (Conor Friedersdorf & Reihan Salam)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 213898)
When you live in California it doesn't matter who you vote for for president. The Dem will get the electoral vote but I still vote, damn it!

I know BHH. I gave my reasons above.

Quote:

Do you know if independents will be allowed to vote in the Republican presidential primary in California? And is that a nationwide decision by the party or do they go state by state?
I looked this up a while back. The wording of the rules is ambiguous. I don't want them to change the rules on me, so I registered R, just in case. We do have "open primaries," but you can never trust those tricky bastards that make the rules.

badhatharry 06-23-2011 05:12 PM

Re: Reihan on Texas and the Perry Record (Conor Friedersdorf & Reihan Salam)
 
Yeah, in our last election I was able to vote in the republican primary, but there was something special about that. Too bad about Meg and Carly. They never had a chance.

They do change the rules and of course for strategic reasons. It's the party that does it and not the secretary of state. Very complicated.

badhatharry 06-23-2011 05:19 PM

Re: American Originals (Conor Friedersdorf & Reihan Salam)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by look (Post 213871)
O brave new world. We prospered in the Fifties and Sixties because the rest of the world lay in ruins. By the Seventies, the Japanese were getting in on the automobile thing while American cars declined in quality. I'm under the impression that the Golden Age of the Fifties and Sixties was a fluke, and I wonder how the average worker in America will fare in the long haul, as the cheap labor market rolls around the world.

People were better off when we weren't so informed. We took life as it came and made adjustments along the way. Now everyone is in the analyzation and prediction business. No one really knows but we feel somehow we're supposed to.

Me speaking for everyone because I'm qualified.

look 06-23-2011 05:29 PM

Re: American Originals (Conor Friedersdorf & Reihan Salam)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 213905)
People were better off when we weren't so informed. We took life as it came and made adjustments along the way. Now everyone is in the analyzation and prediction business. No one really knows but we feel somehow we're supposed to.

Me speaking for everyone because I'm qualified.

:)

I guess that once the New World Order is established, we'll all be able to relax.

bkjazfan 06-23-2011 08:16 PM

Re: Reihan on Texas and the Perry Record (Conor Friedersdorf & Reihan Salam)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 213903)
Yeah, in our last election I was able to vote in the republican primary, but there was something special about that. Too bad about Meg and Carly. They never had a chance.

They do change the rules and of course for strategic reasons. It's the party that does it and not the secretary of state. Very complicated.

Awhile back for a short period the primaries were open, then they closed them. I don't know where it's at now. Both parties are unsettled due to so many people in recent years registering as "decline to state".

look 06-23-2011 08:28 PM

Re: American Originals (Conor Friedersdorf & Reihan Salam)
 
This was a good little dv, chatty and friendly. Good pairing. Conor's new project sounds like a great idea.

badhatharry 06-24-2011 12:31 AM

Re: Reihan on Texas and the Perry Record (Conor Friedersdorf & Reihan Salam)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkjazfan (Post 213951)
Awhile back for a short period the primaries were open, then they closed them. I don't know where it's at now. Both parties are unsettled due to so many people in recent years registering as "decline to state".

I think the parties are also worried about people from the other party registering as independent and influencing primaries for their own purposes.
Maybe that's what happened in Nevada when Angle won the primary. What was that about???

Winspur 06-25-2011 01:13 PM

Re: American Originals (Conor Friedersdorf & Reihan Salam)
 
If a state is "lightly taxed," in Reihan's parlance, it will have crappy education and crappy health care. There is really no way around this--as Conor pointed out, you cannot expect civil society to fill the vacuum if the society is not already ethnically and culturally homogenous. (In Utah, the price of generous LDS welfare is being forced to lie about your sexual orientation.)

operative 06-25-2011 01:43 PM

Re: American Originals (Conor Friedersdorf & Reihan Salam)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Winspur (Post 214142)
If a state is "lightly taxed," in Reihan's parlance, it will have crappy education and crappy health care. There is really no way around this--as Conor pointed out, you cannot expect civil society to fill the vacuum if the society is not already ethnically and culturally homogenous. (In Utah, the price of generous LDS welfare is being forced to lie about your sexual orientation.)

LDS welfare isn't contingent upon living by LDS code--in fact, most LDS welfare goes to non-members.

The last time I checked, New Hampshire had neither crappy education nor crappy health care.

Moreover, both South Dakota and Wyoming lack a state income tax and yet have HS graduation rates of 80 and 81%:
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_baeo_t1.htm

Among higher taxed states? New York=70%. Hawaii=69%. California=68%.

Perhaps they should embrace the South Dakota model.

graz 06-25-2011 02:48 PM

Re: American Originals (Conor Friedersdorf & Reihan Salam)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 214145)

Among higher taxed states? New York=70%. Hawaii=69%. California=68%.

Perhaps they should embrace the South Dakota model.

Yes. They ought consider embracing LDS, becoming less populated, and mostly white, while they're at it.

sugarkang 06-25-2011 03:08 PM

Re: American Originals (Conor Friedersdorf & Reihan Salam)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Winspur (Post 214142)
If a state is "lightly taxed," in Reihan's parlance, it will have crappy education and crappy health care. There is really no way around this--

Evidence? South Korea is decent on both and spends less than most countries. However, private spending on education is off the charts.


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