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-   -   Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green) (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?t=6826)

chiwhisoxx 06-22-2011 04:07 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 213562)
Twin clearly labeled the second graf as personal speculation, not as an assertion of truth.

In regard to right-wing think tanks and their funding sources, which part of that isn't true? Heritage, AEI, CEI, Heartland Institute - most of the right-wing-think core - are disreputable, liars and cheats who have been caught in those lies on more than one occasion. (I've linked to plenty of evidence for this assertion many times on this site alone.) And that doesn't even bother to deal directly with the Koch bros and their arguably noxious effect on the public debate.

I was much more concerned with the first graph. And why are we talking about right wing think tanks? That wasn't my point. If you're going to dodge because you don't want to offend TS, fine. But via the think tanks, what's your point? Organizations that large, especially in the age of the internet, produce so many items it's kind of inevitable some of them are going to be wrong to some degree. I bet you all the money in my pocket that for every mistake from this institutions you can find, I'll get you three from the Center for American Progress alone. There are more right wing think tanks (I think, not sure) but the level of dishonesty and deceptiveness from CAP matches them all by itself. It's almost the norm to find a post on CAP that's at the very least hiding something, if not outright lying. But that's not the point. You dodged the question about TS, and I don't care to get into a "YOUR THINK TANKS ARE WORSE!" argument, because it's not like I'm going to change your mind. For your last sentence, I could change the word "Koch" to "Soros" or "unions" and shoot it right back at you. What's the point?

AemJeff 06-22-2011 04:23 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx (Post 213616)
I was much more concerned with the first graph. And why are we talking about right wing think tanks? That wasn't my point. If you're going to dodge because you don't want to offend TS, fine. But via the think tanks, what's your point? Organizations that large, especially in the age of the internet, produce so many items it's kind of inevitable some of them are going to be wrong to some degree. I bet you all the money in my pocket that for every mistake from this institutions you can find, I'll get you three from the Center for American Progress alone. There are more right wing think tanks (I think, not sure) but the level of dishonesty and deceptiveness from CAP matches them all by itself. It's almost the norm to find a post on CAP that's at the very least hiding something, if not outright lying. But that's not the point. You dodged the question about TS, and I don't care to get into a "YOUR THINK TANKS ARE WORSE!" argument, because it's not like I'm going to change your mind. For your last sentence, I could change the word "Koch" to "Soros" or "unions" and shoot it right back at you. What's the point?

Twin made two sets of assertions. One was clearly labeled as his personal opinion, the other was in regard to think tanks. Since the only factual claims were contained in the latter, I addressed that. I don't think Twin's stated opinion is "ludicrous," mainly because it's not.

chiwhisoxx 06-22-2011 04:31 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 213617)
Twin made two sets of assertions. One was clearly labeled as his personal opinion, the other was in regard to think tanks. Since the only factual claims were contained in the latter, I addressed that. I don't think Twin's stated opinion is "ludicrous," mainly because it's not.

ok. bear in mind I'm also talking about tone, not just substance, because I think that matters too. but I understand everyone has their blind spots. I just think if you want me to take a statement like that from TS seriously, then I'll have a hard time condemning a lot of the RW'ers here as being "worse" than that sort of stuff.

anyway, I think I have may have initiated a pointless argument, so nevermind.

Hume's Bastard 06-22-2011 07:38 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 213539)
I'm not actually a Randian. The closest to me would be Hayek.

Admittedly, I've not read Hayek, but I have read my Econ greats - Smith, Malthus, Mill, Marx, Keynes, as well as textbooks. But, this diavlog about Hayek has sparked my interest in the man. What I admired about Hayek is his skepticism, which libertarians as unapologetic propagandists and activists lack. Hayek seems more of a complete thinker than Rand. I've always found "objectivism" to be the worst kind of adolescent idealism, for lazy children with too much money for their own good who are too impatient to think about how pathetic objectivism is, and are one step removed from maturbation and video games.

In other words, money and attitude compensates for intelligence.

TwinSwords 06-22-2011 08:12 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx (Post 213621)
ok. bear in mind I'm also talking about tone, not just substance, because I think that matters too. but I understand everyone has their blind spots. I just think if you want me to take a statement like that from TS seriously, then I'll have a hard time condemning a lot of the RW'ers here as being "worse" than that sort of stuff.

If you believe that the people and corporations -- corporations! -- who fund think tanks, policy planning networks, policy institutions, and foundations are doing so without any expectation of some benefit redounding to themselves, you're more naive than I thought. Most of the aforementioned institutions exist to influence public opinion or to shape policy at all levels of government, from local to state to federal. That's simply what they are for. They provide the funding and organizational framework necessary to hire a bunch of intellectuals who can, in turn, crank out the kinds of bodies of intellectual work product -- books, films, lectures, newspaper and magazine articles, web sites, television and radio appearances and programming, consultation with political staff, political parties, political candidates, polling firms, etc. -- that can in turn help the institutions achieve their policy or ideological objectives.

Many of your posts give me the impression that you have studied political science. If that's the case, I cannot believe you don't already know this stuff -- assuming your issue is not just with my tone but with the factual basis for the observation.

Obviously some of the individuals who are hired into these institutions come at the job with a pure passion for political theory or political philosophy, but that's how the free market works. A corporation might want to find a way to build a better light bulb because they calculate that they can charge a high price and secure a larger portion of the market. The corporate calculation is all dollars and cents (as it should be, in a case like this). It would be pretty naive to think that the corporation has significant or controlling interests that go much, if at all, beyond raw profit motive. Ultimately, the corporation doesn't care how the engineers and scientists achieve the stated objective (within some obvious ethical and legal constraints); they just care that the better light bulb is discovered and manufacturable. The scientists and engineers they hire, on the other hand, may have a completely different set of motivations. A corporation may well hire a guy who has a passion for reducing energy consumption for purposes of saving the planet (to cite but one possible motivation), but it would be a mistake to confuse his motivation with that of the corporation.

The policy planning network (think tanks, foundations, institutions, etc.) pretty much exists for the same purpose: they have certain broad goals, say, to provide justification and defense for the State of Israel, help foster legislation and national policy (State Department, Defense Department) that will redound to the benefit of Israel. The institution will, over time, hire literally hundreds of individuals with myriad talents to work on thousands of different projects and pursue thousands of different avenues to accomplish the objective, but there is, clearly, a core objective towards which they are all working. No one is naive enough to think that the people hired by the pro-Israel institution is free to work on whatever she desires, or to generate scholarship or work product that runs contrary to the stated goals of the institution.

Take another example: American Enterprise Institute. This is a body that has a broad interest in promoting conservative and libertarian economic theories and government policy. They want to generate scholarship and other work product to (among other things) support efforts to reduce government spending on programs that benefit the population at large, and in turn to reduce the taxes that are needed to pay for those services. So, one day, along comes Charles Murray. AEI didn't necessary come into existence because it wanted to generate racist scholarship to support theories of white supremacy. But Murray's work fit perfectly in the AEI wheelhouse. While most people think that Murray's book was simply a work of racist scholarship that set out to prove the genetic inferiority of black people, in fact there was another purpose: to eliminate the justification for a host of social programs that were developed to correct the disparities between blacks and whites: everything from affirmative action to Head Start to education to welfare -- all of which had long been targets of AEI and the conservative/libertarian movement more broadly. The people who dumped money into AEI were doing so, at least in part, for that very purpose: To generate the necessary scholarship and work product (what I originally called the intellectual justification) to wipe out those programs. Murray's approach was quite bold and novel: He said that money spent trying to close the achievement gap between blacks and whites is wasted because black people are just naturally inferior, and no amount of remediation efforts can overcome the natural inborn deficiencies from which blacks suffer. The book was a massive hit among conservatives, libertarians, and Republicans. (It had the added benefit of absolving white Americans from any sense of responsibility for the condition of blacks in America; it wasn't due to centuries of repression or because of racism, but because blacks were inherently inferior.)

The Murray case is another illustration how the whole policy planning network functions, and how the money injected into them is intended to generate the kind of intellectual justifications necessary to advance policy goals that were defined at the outset, before the scholarship was generated.

The libertarian think thanks, of which there are a great many, and which receive their funding from corporations and wealthy individuals, are no different. They have a set of policy preferences they exist to promote, and they hire staff who they set free to figure out ways to advance those preferences.

So, again: There is nothing even remotely controversial about my original suggestion that there is "a lot of corporate cash being pumped into the wingnut/libertarian think tanks to provide the intellectual rationale for policies" their donors prefer.

American politics is all about the money; it's one of the great impediments to real democracy and real representative government. Given this reality, corporations and other wealthy interests know they can manipulate political outcomes through robust lobbying and funding of policy planning networks.

sugarkang 06-22-2011 08:12 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hume's Bastard (Post 213653)
What I admired about Hayek is his skepticism, which libertarians as unapologetic propagandists and activists lack.

We also tend to question the system as it exists now, regardless of which party is in power. We uphold principles, not groups. That means we stand up for your constitutional rights whether you are the KKK or Muslims who want to build a mosque. We stand up for what we believe in the face of overwhelming opposition. While Democrats and Republicans both believe that the world would be a better place as long as the other side were eradicated like the dirty cockroaches that they are, only libertarianism accepts the peaceful coexistence of different moral systems.

But you were saying about Ayn Rand? As I understand it, she lived under Lenin and has experienced coerced altruism, firsthand. One might even draw a parallel to Sergey Brin, also a Russian Jew. Admittedly, he's likely filled with "adolescent idealism" and has "too much money" for his own good, becoming a billionaire so early and all. After all, it's only when you're a spoiled, filthy rich capitalist that you can decide to pull your multi-billion dollar business out of China based on objections to totalitarianism. Totalitarian, collectivist, whatever. Filthy Russian Jews is what they were. Right?

operative 06-22-2011 08:16 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hume's Bastard (Post 213653)
Admittedly, I've not read Hayek, but I have read my Econ greats - Smith, Malthus, Mill, Marx, Keynes, as well as textbooks. But, this diavlog about Hayek has sparked my interest in the man. What I admired about Hayek is his skepticism, which libertarians as unapologetic propagandists and activists lack. Hayek seems more of a complete thinker than Rand. I've always found "objectivism" to be the worst kind of adolescent idealism, for lazy children with too much money for their own good who are too impatient to think about how pathetic objectivism is, and are one step removed from maturbation and video games.

In other words, money and attitude compensates for intelligence.

I haven't listened to that one before; I'll check it out. Hayek was certainly far more open to challenges and alternative ideas than Rand. Rand expected unquestioning allegiance from her followers and would quickly disown anyone who wasn't sufficiently sycophantic (let alone actually criticizing her--unthinkable!); Hayek was interested in actual debate and thinking through challenges as opposed to dismissing them out of hand. I'm not the first to note the stylistic similarities of Rand and Marx or the feverish devotion that the most loyal acolytes of each engendered. They're both materialist surrogate religions.

operative 06-22-2011 08:20 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 213656)
We also tend to question the system as it exists now, regardless of which party is in power. We uphold principles, not groups. That means we stand up for your constitutional rights whether you are the KKK or Muslims who want to build a mosque. We stand up for what we believe in the face of overwhelming opposition. While Democrats and Republicans both believe that the world would be a better place as long as the other side were eradicated like the dirty cockroaches that they are, only libertarianism accepts the peaceful coexistence of different moral systems.

But you were saying about Ayn Rand? As I understand it, she lived under Lenin and has experienced coerced altruism, firsthand. One might even draw a parallel to Sergey Brin, also a Russian Jew. Admittedly, he's likely filled with "adolescent idealism" and has "too much money" for his own good, becoming a billionaire so early and all. After all, it's only when you're a spoiled, filthy rich capitalist that you can decide to pull your multi-billion dollar business out of China based on objections to totalitarianism. Totalitarian, collectivist, whatever. Filthy Russian Jews is what they were. Right?

Rand is definitely reactionary (just as Marx was reactionary). One thing I will credit her is that her ideology, unlike Marx's, is incapable of leading to mass atrocities (besides the filming of Atlas Shrugged).

look 06-22-2011 08:22 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 213658)
Rand is definitely reactionary (just as Marx was reactionary). One thing I will credit her is that her ideology, unlike Marx's, is incapable of leading to mass atrocities (besides the filming of Atlas Shrugged).

lol

sugarkang 06-22-2011 08:28 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TwinSwords (Post 213655)
American politics is all about the money; it's one of the great impediments to real democracy and real representative government. Given this reality, corporations and other wealthy interests know they can manipulate political outcomes through robust lobbying and funding of policy planning networks.

I completely agree with this. Let's just take a look at who spends the most lobbying money.



http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/5592/capturefix.png

http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php?type=A

I'll take lobbyists for $200, Alex.

Ranked #25 on the all time top donor list, this investment bank, frequently derided by good liberals everywhere, has given more money to Democrats than Republicans between the years 1989-2010.

Who is Goldman Sachs, Alex.

That's correct. Pick again.

carkrueger 06-22-2011 08:35 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Conn Carroll is the ONLY authentic conservative on BHTV. I love that he's clean shaven now and the hair gelled and teased at the top makes him the hottest guy on BHTV.

sugarkang 06-22-2011 08:41 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 213658)
Rand is definitely reactionary (just as Marx was reactionary). One thing I will credit her is that her ideology, unlike Marx's, is incapable of leading to mass atrocities (besides the filming of Atlas Shrugged).

Gah. Libertarians just need more filmmakers. However, the problem with us is that we're, like, totally into efficiency, logistics, frictionless transactions. There isn't really a good / bad narrative to be made there because people want to watch human stories. The problem with Rand is that she's all that we have. For those that "get it" it's great, but I mean Atlas Shrugged is 10x too long and is really faulty. But she's all we have, so her books keep getting printed and we continue to get demagogued.

What we need is a bunch of amateur documentary filmmakers. The Corporation is one of the left's best standouts. Probably cost a million to make, if that. Instead of turning Atlas into a movie, we should be putting out documentaries. The effect on liberals is clear. They take their unbelievably high standard of living for granted and don't even see the irony in blogging about corporate greed on their iPhones. They bitch about Goldman Sachs and keep supporting politicians who take the most money from Goldman Sachs. Good job, Left Hive-Mind.

graz 06-22-2011 08:42 PM

Creepy crawler ... ewwwwww!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by carkrueger (Post 213661)
Conn Carroll is the ONLY authentic conservative on BHTV. I love that he's clean shaven now and the hair gelled and teased at the top makes him the hottest guy on BHTV.

I call foul. Violation of rules 1 and 2.


Comment guidelines for the Bloggingheads Community

Our guidelines:

#1 No name-calling aimed at diavloggers.

#2 No gratuitous comments about diavloggers’ physical appearance.

TwinSwords 06-22-2011 08:44 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx (Post 213616)
I was much more concerned with the first graph. And why are we talking about right wing think tanks?

Why are we talking about think tanks? Because that's what I was responding to. Remember, Hume said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hume's Bastard (Post 213518)
No. It probably has more to do with that peculiar American institution, the think tank - where Carroll started when I first listened to one of his diavlogs - and bh.tv's need for funding.

To which I responded:

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwinSwords (Post 213519)
That's right. There's a lot of corporate cash being pumped into the wingnut/libertarian think tanks to provide the intellectual rationale for policies that have one purpose: transfer wealth to the top one-tenth of one percent. And pave the way to roll back American life to something like 1903.


TwinSwords 06-22-2011 08:47 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 213660)
I completely agree with this. Let's just take a look at who spends the most lobbying money.

No one here, least of all me, is unaware that corporations and wealthy interests pump a massive amount of money into the Democratic Party. If you review my post history, you'll find that I have expressed deep concern about this -- and its impact on our political process -- for a long time. It's one of my core political concerns, and the cash you cite is the primary way that corporations and wealthy interests help pervert representative government and ensure policy outcomes that are favorable to themselves.

I will also say that there's a fundamental difference between an organization that represents millions of ordinary working people and corporations that represent the interests of a tiny handful of owners.

operative 06-22-2011 08:49 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 213662)
Gah. Libertarians just need more filmmakers. However, the problem with us is that we're, like, totally into efficiency, logistics, frictionless transactions. There isn't really a good / bad narrative to be made there because people want to watch human stories. The problem with Rand is that she's all that we have. For those that "get it" it's great, but I mean Atlas Shrugged is 10x too long and is really faulty. But she's all we have, so her books keep getting printed and we continue to get demagogued.

What we need is a bunch of amateur documentary filmmakers. The Corporation is one of the left's best standouts. Probably cost a million to make, if that. Instead of turning Atlas into a movie, we should be putting out documentaries. The effect on liberals is clear. They take their unbelievably high standard of living for granted and don't even see the irony in blogging about corporate greed on their iPhones. They bitch about Goldman Sachs and keep supporting politicians who take the most money from Goldman Sachs. Good job, Left Hive-Mind.

I've also wondered why there aren't more libertarian themed documentaries. But then it's harder to make money because the left-wing institutions will come out against them--that's what kept Waiting For Superman (not a libertarian documentary, but one that happens to make some arguments shared by libertarians) from even getting nominated for a revenue-generating best documentary Oscar, while each year mediocre, PC films get nominated (such as the turgid winner last year).

sugarkang 06-22-2011 08:55 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 213666)
I've also wondered why there aren't more libertarian themed documentaries. But then it's harder to make money because the left-wing institutions will come out against them--that's what kept Waiting For Superman (not a libertarian documentary, but one that happens to make some arguments shared by libertarians) from even getting nominated for a revenue-generating best documentary Oscar, while each year mediocre, PC films get nominated (such as the turgid winner last year).

I don't know if I buy that argument. I mean, sure, Superman won't win at the Oscars. But, as I recall, Oprah endorsed it and had Michelle Rhee on her show and that generated quite a bit of buzz. With Facebook and YouTube, it's kind of hard to complain that you have no avenues for marketing and distribution.

I think it may just have to do with the type of people that want to become filmmakers. They are interested in telling human stories, perhaps from an individual perspective. The story that we want to tell is kind of like trying to explain the merits of Linux over Windows 95 and making that super interesting for 90 minutes.

operative 06-22-2011 09:02 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 213668)
I don't know if I buy that argument. I mean, sure, Superman won't win at the Oscars. But, as I recall, Oprah endorsed it and had Michelle Rhee on her show and that generated quite a bit of buzz.

Not only that, but some liberal critics heaped praise on it. But I've heard multiple people say that they would never watch it, calling it some version of dishonest propaganda. So there's a pretty effective counter-marketing scheme from the Teacher's Unions.

Quote:

I think it may just have to do with the type of people that want to become filmmakers. They are interested in telling human stories, perhaps from an individual perspective. The story that we want to tell is kind of like trying to explain the merits of Linux over Windows 95 and making that super interesting for 90 minutes.
Also, filmmaking is hard to get into, at least in a way that actually is self-supporting. Libertarians tend to understand risk and return better than people in other ideologies, imo, which should reduce their participation in high risk, high barrier industries such as film and music.

Hume's Bastard 06-22-2011 09:11 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 213656)
...But you were saying about Ayn Rand?

Second-rate propagandist with the worst type of followers accustomed by their employment - which they resent - to be highly-efficient worker bees. The rest of what you wrote is incomprehensible.

sugarkang 06-22-2011 09:18 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hume's Bastard (Post 213676)
The rest of what you wrote is incomprehensible.

Well, at least we're being honest that you don't want to actually engage on the merits and you're only interested in demagoguery. Kool N The Gang.

Hume's Bastard 06-22-2011 09:24 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 213679)
Well, at least we're being honest that you don't want to actually engage on the merits and you're only interested in demagoguery. Kool N The Gang.

Well. I was being honest...you were scoring points.

badhatharry 06-22-2011 09:37 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx (Post 213557)
see, Jeff complains about the quality of posts from the right on this board, in the commenters court thread, and then you read something like this...I'd say this falls under the same category of "ideological talking points without any basis in fact". And I'd also say this represents something the left does much better than the right on this board: melodramatic, over the top, ludicrous caricatures of your opponents.

Hey! I'm pretty damned good at being melodramatic and over the top and I'm working on becoming better.

Quote:

Zeke, you said you didn't mind naming names. Am I (or anyone else, really) supposed to take something like this seriously? I wouldn't ask if I thought this was an isolated post, but it's pretty common
I never take anything Zeke or TS says seriously (and vice versa). Good call chiwhi. There's some heavy duty denial going on around these parts but it's kind of enlightening, isn't it? We all have our blind spots.

badhatharry 06-22-2011 09:54 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 213666)
I've also wondered why there aren't more libertarian themed documentaries. But then it's harder to make money because the left-wing institutions will come out against them--that's what kept Waiting For Superman (not a libertarian documentary, but one that happens to make some arguments shared by libertarians) from even getting nominated for a revenue-generating best documentary Oscar, while each year mediocre, PC films get nominated (such as the turgid winner last year).

What would a libertarian themed documentary look like? It makes me think of a John Stossel special or these guys.

sugarkang 06-22-2011 09:55 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hume's Bastard (Post 213680)
Well. I was being honest...you were scoring points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hume's Bastard (Post 213653)
Admittedly, I've not read Hayek
...
What I admired about Hayek is his skepticism, which libertarians as unapologetic propagandists and activists lack. Hayek seems more of a complete thinker than Rand. I've always found "objectivism" to be the worst kind of adolescent idealism, for lazy children with too much money for their own good who are too impatient to think about how pathetic objectivism is, and are one step removed from maturbation and video games.

In other words, money and attitude compensates for intelligence.

wat

sugarkang 06-22-2011 09:56 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 213686)
What would a libertarian themed documentary look like? It makes me think of a John Stossel special.

I told you: Windows 95 vs. Linux. In other words, extra boring. It should still be attempted, though. First, you need a British chick narrator. Then a bunch of infographic thingies, scary music and end with a hopeful tone, as long as we "act now." I think that's how liberals do it. We should copy them first and then try to get better as we go along.

operative 06-22-2011 09:59 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 213686)
What would a libertarian themed documentary look like? It makes me think of a John Stossel special.

For most people, probably. I love charts, so I'd probably enjoy it.

badhatharry 06-22-2011 10:03 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 213688)
I told you: Windows 95 vs. Linux. In other words, extra boring. It should still be attempted, though. First, you need a British chick narrator. Then a bunch of infographic thingies, scary music and end with a hopeful tone, as long as we "act now." I think that's how liberals do it. We should copy them first and then try to get better as we go along.

or these guys

Hume's Bastard 06-22-2011 10:08 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 213687)
wat

Oh, I was supposed to use obscure analogies and tempt you to admit some ugly opinion. Forgive me for not understanding how you "argue".

badhatharry 06-22-2011 10:11 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hume's Bastard (Post 213676)
Second-rate propagandist with the worst type of followers accustomed by their employment - which they resent - to be highly-efficient worker bees. The rest of what you wrote is incomprehensible.

Most people who read Rand are just out of high school. Well, at least I was and I've talked to others. She seems so amazing at that age but if you have any literary sense you realize about half-way through that she's not a very good writer. But damn it, her ideas were original and that's saying something. And she's uncompromising and she was able to articulate a pretty coherent philosophy which is something very few people do. She's a great character.

Hume's Bastard 06-22-2011 10:12 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 213686)
What would a libertarian themed documentary look like? It makes me think of a John Stossel special or these guys.

Charlie Sheen repeating over and over: "You don't know economics!", with Iggy Pop's "Search and Destroy" in the background as assorted images of professional athletes sweep across the screen.

Hume's Bastard 06-22-2011 10:15 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 213695)
Most people who read Rand are just out of high school. Well, at least I was and I've talked to others. She seems so amazing at that age but if you have any literary sense you realize about half-way through that she's not a very good writer. But damn it, her ideas were original and that's saying something. And she's uncompromising and she was able to articulate a pretty coherent philosophy which is something very few people do. She's a great character.

I'll give you everything you just argued. But, I still think one reading of Kant will inoculate even a new vamp like Jessica from a single reading, and Hume will kill the urge completely.

CrowsMakeTools 06-22-2011 10:23 PM

Re: Quality Control, Ron Paul and Rick Perry
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by harkin (Post 213532)
Ya gotta love the fact that it takes smearing a TX governor for liberals to recognize the effects of massive illegal immigration of other nations' unedcated underclass:

"For Texans over age 25 the rate of having a high school diploma is white 91%, Asian, 89%, black, 83%, and Hispanic 51%."

The effects of TX conservatives are so far reaching, they've caused CA's HS graduation rate to drop to 42nd in the nation!

Hey, that's a great Republican talking point. Texas has great educational opportunities for white people. High school drop out rates among African Americans must be due to permissive immigration policies. Perry needs friends like Harkin writing his press releases.

AemJeff 06-22-2011 10:27 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hume's Bastard (Post 213696)
Charlie Sheen repeating over and over: "You don't know economics!", with Iggy Pop's "Search and Destroy" in the background as assorted images of professional athletes sweep across the screen.

I'd pay to see that. After "Search and Destroy" follow up with "I Need More" from Soldier.

look 06-22-2011 10:36 PM

Re: Quality Control, Ron Paul and Rick Perry
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CrowsMakeTools (Post 213701)
Hey, that's a great Republican talking point. Texas has great educational opportunities for white people. High school drop out rates among African Americans must be due to permissive immigration policies. Perry needs friends like Harkin writing his press releases.

Concentrate, CMT, the big story is the whites beat out the Asians.

badhatharry 06-22-2011 10:39 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hume's Bastard (Post 213697)
I'll give you everything you just argued. But, I still think one reading of Kant will inoculate even a new vamp like Jessica from a single reading, and Hume will kill the urge completely.

Don't you just love Hume? (well, I guess you do) He's so, ya know, readable. I like James, too, for the same reason. I've not read Kant but only read about him.

operative 06-22-2011 10:45 PM

Re: Quality Control, Ron Paul and Rick Perry
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CrowsMakeTools (Post 213701)
Hey, that's a great Republican talking point. Texas has great educational opportunities for white people. High school drop out rates among African Americans must be due to permissive immigration policies. Perry needs friends like Harkin writing his press releases.

So it's the state of Texas that causes Hispanics to drop out of high school and not, say, a cultural deemphasis of the value of education.

Don Zeko 06-22-2011 10:53 PM

Re: Quality Control, Ron Paul and Rick Perry
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 213709)
So it's the state of Texas that causes Hispanics to drop out of high school and not, say, a cultural deemphasis of the value of education.

Allow me to translate:

[public policy problem x] is obviously too big and complex to be caused simply by [explanation a], as you just idiotically argued. anyone can see that these problems are very complex and respond to tons of different variables. No, it's obviously caused entirely by [explanation b].

AemJeff 06-22-2011 10:58 PM

Re: Quality Control, Ron Paul and Rick Perry
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 213713)
Allow me to translate:

[public policy problem x] is obviously too big and complex to be caused simply by [explanation a], as you just idiotically argued. anyone can see that these problems are very complex and respond to tons of different variables. No, it's obviously caused entirely by [explanation b].

Funny how the "deemphasis" was so much more acute for Hispanics and blacks.

operative 06-22-2011 11:06 PM

Re: Quality Control, Ron Paul and Rick Perry
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 213715)
Funny how the "deemphasis" was so much more acute for Hispanics and blacks.

It's hardly a coincidence that groups that are more likely to deemphasize education are more likely to achieve poorer results. Check the achievement rates of Hmongs, Laotians, and Irish Protestants, all of which are lackluster, and then come back and try the race card again.

badhatharry 06-22-2011 11:25 PM

Re: Quality Control, Ron Paul and Rick Perry
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 213713)
Allow me to translate:

[public policy problem x] is obviously too big and complex to be caused simply by [explanation a], as you just idiotically argued. anyone can see that these problems are very complex and respond to tons of different variables. No, it's obviously caused entirely by [explanation b].

Ummm, I think he was saying something like this: Instead of blaming the state of Texas for the poor educational achievement of this or that group there may be other factors involved. One suggestion is that this group's culture doesn't emphasize education as highly as others.

The post he was responding to emphatically insinuated that it was the state's fault and operative was challenging that assumption. Surely there is nothing incendiary in that.


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