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-   -   Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green) (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?t=6826)

Don Zeko 06-21-2011 11:45 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 213430)
PEOPLE WOULD STOP GOING TO MEDICAL SCHOOL.

Kang, this would be more persuasive if, say, Europe's much less well-paid doctors were in short supply, or if Med schools weren't fabulously difficult to get in to. As with Operative, I don't feel like this is a discussion worth having because you never engage with the health care system as it exists in this country, much less with the far more effective health care systems elsewhere.

Instead, you're serving up supply and demand, let the market decide Libertarian pabulum in a context where the government is already about as deeply embedded in the system as it is in the aerospace or energy sectors, there's broad agreement on the existence of huge market failures, and most people's moral intuitions declare the outcomes of a free market abhorrent. Now that my initial frustration with Conn's dishonest performance has abated, I'm not going to participate further in this debate if it continues to be an argument between someone talking about health care and someone using health care as a parable with which to demonstrate the virtues of Libertarian philosophy.

sugarkang 06-22-2011 12:02 AM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 213477)
Kang, this would be more persuasive if, say, Europe's much less well-paid doctors were in short supply, or if Med schools weren't fabulously difficult to get in to.

I'm not trying to be unreasonable. I prefaced everything with a caveat. Now, you make some solid points, if true. But even if true, it doesn't make your position conclusive. If being a doctor is the best job you can have in Europe, then you can discount the price. Money, power and prestige are all somewhat fungible.

To convince me, at a minimum, you'd have to show the following:

1. European doctors have plenty of other lucrative alternatives, but still choose to be doctors.
2. social stature of European doctors is on par or lower in comparison to American doctors.
3. actual health care is superior for most people, not just patient satisfaction.
4. top 1% rich people seek out specialists in Europe over the specialists in the United States.

CrowsMakeTools 06-22-2011 03:22 AM

Re: Quality Control, Ron Paul and Rick Perry
 
Ron Paul does not have a chance at getting nominated, but that's never been his objective. He has shifted the range of ideas that Republicans find permissible topics of discussion, both in economic and foreign policy, and that is a significant achievement.

As Conn points out, however, the Texan that does seem to have a chance at being taken seriously is Governor Rick Perry:

http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/369...8:01&out=18:09

The conservative pundits keep talking about the Texas record in leading the country in job creation, and this will probably the number 1 Perry talking point. Texas really is an excellent model for representing the consequences of Republican social and economic policy. A close examination of the record, however, suggests that the governor's fans are going to have some splainin' to do. Perry's opponents will enjoy perusing state senator Eliot Shapleigh's demographic and economic profile of the Lone Star State, "Texas on the Brink"

Texas ranks:

45th in SAT scores
50th in percent of population over 25 with a high school diploma
2nd in birth rate,
1st in percent of uninsured children,
4th in percent of children living in poverty,
49th in percent of low income population covered by Medicaid
50th in state per capita spending on mental health
50th in percent of non-elderly women with health insurance
50th in percent of women receiving prenatal care in the 1st trimester
49th in women's voter turnout
10th in foreclosure rates
49th in average credit score
1st in toxic chemical emissions
50th in workers compensation coverage
9th in income inequality between rich and poor
5th in income inequality between rich in middle class
44th in home ownership.
1st in executions
9th in rate of incarceration
45th in percent of voting age population that votes


In summary, voters who like the Texas model and Perry's record want a country with high income disparity, terrible personal credit scores, low rates of home ownership, high numbers of uninsured people, high birth rates with third world levels of prenatal care, lots of toxic waste, low voter participation, bad school test scores, lots of executions, high incarceration rates, terrible mental health services and low taxes.

See Shapleigh's report, "Texas on the Brink," at: http://shapleigh.org/system/reportin...documents3.pdf

The late Molly Ivins once said: "Texas is just Mississippi with good roads." Unfortunately the public investment in the road network, as with other public infrastructure, has slipped considerably since she made that quip.

Florian 06-22-2011 05:04 AM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 213477)
......As with Operative, I don't feel like this is a discussion worth having because you never engage with the health care system as it exists in this country, much less with the far more effective health care systems elsewhere.

That is the fundamental difference between your posts and those of the libertarians here. They know next to nothing about the health care system as it actually exists in the US, and nothing at all about the health care systems that exist in Europe---which are all different in any case and cannot be summarily described or dismissed as "socialist/socialized," to use this meaningless jargon that Libertarians so love. They are also superior in terms of outcomes and costs, besides being more just. But arguing that the US is not Number 1 in this area will always incur the wrath of some Americans.


Quote:

Instead, you're serving up supply and demand, let the market decide Libertarian pabulum in a context where the government is already about as deeply embedded in the system as it is in the aerospace or energy sectors, there's broad agreement on the existence of huge market failures, and most people's moral intuitions declare the outcomes of a free market abhorrent. Now that my initial frustration with Conn's dishonest performance has abated, I'm not going to participate further in this debate if it continues to be an argument between someone talking about health care and someone using health care as a parable with which to demonstrate the virtues of Libertarian philosophy.
And besides, who wants to hear for the umteenth time the tenets of their simplistic creed? That seems to be their main justification for posting here. What amazes me is that the BHTV allots so many diavlogs to them. Are they really so representative of the general population?

Hume's Bastard 06-22-2011 05:53 AM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Florian (Post 213517)
...the libertarians here...What amazes me is that the BHTV allots so many diavlogs to them. Are they really so representative of the general population?

No. It probably has more to do with that peculiar American institution, the think tank - where Carroll started when I first listened to one of his diavlogs - and bh.tv's need for funding.

TwinSwords 06-22-2011 05:58 AM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hume's Bastard (Post 213518)
No. It probably has more to do with that peculiar American institution, the think tank - where Carroll started when I first listened to one of his diavlogs - and bh.tv's need for funding.

That's right. There's a lot of corporate cash being pumped into the wingnut/libertarian think tanks to provide the intellectual rationale for policies that have one purpose: transfer wealth to the top one-tenth of one percent. And pave the way to roll back American life to something like 1903.

I suspect there's another reason why Bob hosts so many libertarians: He wants his website to feature dialogue between the left and the right, but I think he has a natural revulsion to social conservatives. You don't see very many of those on BhTV. So his only option is to fill the rightwing slot with libertarians. That's my guess, no idea if it's true, but any theory of why he has so many libertarians also has to explain why he has so few of the other kinds of right-wingers.

TwinSwords 06-22-2011 06:08 AM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Florian (Post 213517)
And besides, who wants to hear for the umteenth time the tenets of their simplistic creed?

And that's what's most amazing about it: That such a brain-dead simple philosophy* could be taken so seriously by such a vocal minority of extremists. They are so passionate about their childish worldview. You could fit the whole thing on the back of an airplane cocktail napkin. (I think they measure 2.25" x 2.25".) If you had a 3x5 card, you could describe the entire libertarian philosophy and still have room left over to calculate how many people would die from implementation of their depraved policies.

You could teach a ten year old the entire theory by 8:30 am if you started at 8:15, even if the kid was sleepy.

But the wingnuts -- they are so fiercely proud of their simple doctrine. You should have seen the last Republican debate: every answer from every candidate to every question was "git th' gubmint outta the way! Private sector rulez!!" They really are that dumb. And so proud of it.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Florian (Post 213517)
That seems to be their main justification for posting here. What amazes me is that the BHTV allots so many diavlogs to them. Are they really so representative of the general population?

They didn't used to be. As Hume said, it's a function of funding from the wealthy who need to construct an intellectual justification for policies designed to ruin life for 99% of the population. But in recent years, it has grown beyond that. Libertarianism is now the fad cult for Republicans to join -- much like "neoconservative" was all the rage in 2003 and 2004, when they still thought they were going to invade the entire Arab world, one country at a time. Before, you know, they got stopped cold in the first one.


* Did I just call libertarianism a "philosophy?" LOL. It must be early. Need more coffee.

operative 06-22-2011 08:46 AM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Florian (Post 213517)
That is the fundamental difference between your posts and those of the libertarians here. They know next to nothing about the health care system as it actually exists in the US, and nothing at all about the health care systems that exist in Europe---which are all different in any case and cannot be summarily described or dismissed as "socialist/socialized," to use this meaningless jargon that Libertarians so love. They are also superior in terms of outcomes and costs, besides being more just. But arguing that the US is not Number 1 in this area will always incur the wrath of some Americans.




And besides, who wants to hear for the umteenth time the tenets of their simplistic creed? That seems to be their main justification for posting here. What amazes me is that the BHTV allots so many diavlogs to them. Are they really so representative of the general population?

I think you're arguing against a straw man here. I know a decent amount about several health care systems in Europe and I'm inclined to believe that most who share my view do, as well. There are elements of certain plans--most namely, the Swiss model--that are quite appealing. In fact, the Swiss model is more free-market than the American model. But it is saddled with the mistaken notion that it is correct for the state to compel a citizen to purchase a product to remain in legal standing.

I'd say that people don't like dealing with issues in the way that I and others investigate them because it shows the logical inconsistencies in their arguments.

So, to briefly summarize, the myths concerning libertarians are:
1) They don't understand Euro models of health care. Not true. We probably do better than most people who sing the praises of them.
2) They have no solutions of their own. Again, completely false. There are many market-oriented solutions to health care that do not take us down the fastlane to serfdom.
3) They're disconnected from reality. Also false. Libertarians approach things both deductively and inductively, whereas many on the left seem to be unable to understand the notion of a deductive argument or argument via logic. It so happens that empirical results back up libertarian arguments far more than other arguments.

harkin 06-22-2011 09:12 AM

Re: Quality Control, Ron Paul and Rick Perry
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CrowsMakeTools (Post 213515)
The conservative pundits keep talking about the Texas record in leading the country in job creation, and this will probably the number 1 Perry talking point. Texas really is an excellent model for representing the consequences of Republican social and economic policy.Texas ranks:

45th in SAT scores
50th in percent of population over 25 with a high school diploma
2nd in birth rate,
1st in percent of uninsured children,
4th in percent of children living in poverty,
49th in percent of low income population covered by Medicaid............

Ya gotta love the fact that it takes smearing a TX governor for liberals to recognize the effects of massive illegal immigration of other nations' unedcated underclass:

"For Texans over age 25 the rate of having a high school diploma is white 91%, Asian, 89%, black, 83%, and Hispanic 51%."

The effects of TX conservatives are so far reaching, they've caused CA's HS graduation rate to drop to 42nd in the nation!

joe_mask 06-22-2011 09:41 AM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Well, Operative, riddle me this...

If the Randian Ideal is the equal "exchange of value for value" above all other human transactions, how can there ever be a profit?

I mean, we're not talking "exchanging perceived value for perceived value", but what I wrote first.

By definition, my employer has to pay me less than what I'm worth in order to sell others products, commodities or services that cost more than what it cost my employer. And my employer, without realizing it most of the time, cost-shifts through externalities everyday. Do you really want to get into first principles on this?

Libertarians live in a world where personal integrity rewards you through industry. If only everyone had equal personal integrity. I live in a world where capital's interests are served and the devil take the hindmost.

I admire the creed of libertarianism, I really do. But I don't think that they get, fundamentally, that markets of free exchange, perfectly realized, needs no currency at all. Or rather, the currency is, once again, represenative of the labor one puts in each day. Even Adam Smith said the only true measure of value is in labor added. So why did Gault and his titans have currency of gold in their ideal "community"? Were they worried about not getting "true" value, or interested in accumulating fixed resources? Because I wonder, where did that gold come from that they coined? Was it mined by someone else, or did they dig it out of the ground? What was the policy on bringing in more gold to the community? How was value assigned? Why gold? People used to exchange with nails, metal slugs, red cloth or whatever. I could go on and on...

harkin 06-22-2011 09:46 AM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
As to comprehensive arguments that would fit on a cocktail napkin, that pretty much descibes everything the pro-unions stooges were saying in WI (when they weren't fleeing the state).

operative 06-22-2011 09:49 AM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by joe_mask (Post 213536)
Well, Operative, riddle me this...

If the Randian Ideal is the equal "exchange of value for value" above all other human transactions, how can there ever be a profit?

I mean, we're not talking "exchanging perceived value for perceived value", but what I wrote first.

By definition, my employer has to pay me less than what I'm worth in order to sell others products, commodities or services that cost more than what it cost my employer. And my employer, without realizing it most of the time, cost-shifts through externalities everyday. Do you really want to get into first principles on this?

Libertarians live in a world where personal integrity rewards you through industry. If only everyone had equal personal integrity. I live in a world where capital's interests are served and the devil take the hindmost.

I admire the creed of libertarianism, I really do. But I don't think that they get, fundamentally, that markets of free exchange, perfectly realized, needs no currency at all. Or rather, the currency is, once again, represenative of the labor one puts in each day. Even Adam Smith said the only true measure of value is in labor added. So why did Gault and his titans have currency of gold in their ideal "community"? Were they worried about not getting "true" value, or interested in accumulating fixed resources? Because I wonder, where did that gold come from that they coined? Was it mined by someone else, or did they dig it out of the ground? What was the policy on bringing in more gold to the community? How was value assigned? Why gold? People used to exchange with nails, metal slugs, red cloth or whatever. I could go on and on...

I'm not actually a Randian. The closest to me would be Hayek.

The value of a product is not the literal work that is put into it, it is the profit that can be made over that investment. For instance, say I create wooden sculptures for a living. Say the investment in each chunk of wood is $50, the cost in electric usage (because I do that crazy chainsaw carving thing) is $5, wear and tear on the chainsaw is $5, and misc. expenses are $5. That means that it's $65. But that's not what it's worth. Say the market will pay $100 for it. That means that the time it takes me to create it is worth $35. If it takes me anything over an hour and a half, I should probably invest my time elsewhere. Value is what we earn, not our expenses.

badhatharry 06-22-2011 09:49 AM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 213473)
It's the same problem I have with Too Big to Fail banks and why I want Glass-Steagall to return. Because, theoretically you can mix investment banking and consumer level banking. In practice, money gets shifted between these concerns. One side may expose the other side to risks they never signed up for.

Interesting. Tyler Cowen thinks that the elimination of some of Glass-Steagal is what ultimately contributed to the righting of the ship because Bank of America was able to buy Merill Lynch, et al.

Quote:

I don't mean to suggest that the companies and their officers wake up each morning saying, "How many people do I have the privilege of fucking over today?" Rather, these conglomerates operate too many different businesses under the same roof to be acting in the best interests of all.

... That is, the Samsung phone division forces the Samsung chip division to compete with all other chip companies in the world on price. Isn't that some cold ass shit? And it fucking works
Aha! It just ain't right, but it fucking works. What a conundrum. The alternative is for the government to go fiddling around, trying to make things better. But there are lots of problems with that, too. The first being that there are way too many lobbyists in Washington to imagine that any law that Congress passes won't pick winners and losers. The second being that absolutely no one is capable of figuring out an absolutely equitable way to regulate things. Something will always squeeze out the side and the solution to that is yet another band-aid.

badhatharry 06-22-2011 10:04 AM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 213477)
... As with Operative, I don't feel like this is a discussion worth having because you never engage with the health care system as it exists in this country, much less with the far more effective health care systems elsewhere.

Instead, you're serving up supply and demand, let the market decide Libertarian pabulum in a context where the government is already about as deeply embedded in the system as it is in the aerospace or energy sectors, there's broad agreement on the existence of huge market failures, and most people's moral intuitions declare the outcomes of a free market abhorrent...

This is so old. You throw up your hands whenever someone disagrees with you or has a different point of view and refuse to engage. Of course, your implication is that these people are just not worth talking to, because I'm so much more informed than they are. If there were someone on your 'side' who knew anything about this stuff, I could maybe see that you would get impatient for more informed discussion but as it is there is a deafening silence on your 'side' and it seems the only people who actually know something about ACA (beyond reading ThinkProgress) are on the right.

And the next complaint is that that specific conservatives are taking over the forum. sigh! (see I read Krugman and Klein, too)

What you should be happy about is that the brand new shiny ACA is very likely to change the landscape of our country. I know that will please you but there are people who have grave concerns about this. It's not that we are fanatically tied to our ideology, but that we see that this hodge podge legislation is going to have serious, and likely not wonderfully serious, consequences.

badhatharry 06-22-2011 10:18 AM

Re: Quality Control, Ron Paul and Rick Perry
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CrowsMakeTools (Post 213515)
The conservative pundits keep talking about the Texas record in leading the country in job creation, and this will probably the number 1 Perry talking point. Texas really is an excellent model for representing the consequences of Republican social and economic policy. A close examination of the record, however, suggests that the governor's fans are going to have some splainin' to do. Perry's opponents will enjoy perusing state senator Eliot Shapleigh's demographic and economic profile of the Lone Star State, "Texas on the Brink"

Yes, I am aware of and have read some of Texas on the Brink. And I absolutely agree that Perry will be questioned about this if he gets the nomination. I will be interested to see what he has to say.

sugarkang 06-22-2011 10:26 AM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by joe_mask (Post 213536)
But I don't think that they get, fundamentally, that markets of free exchange, perfectly realized, needs no currency at all.

The problem with Rand is she's libertarianism's only novelist. Atlas Shrugged should've been cut by 900 pages. Here let me give you the important points about that novel:

1. Who is John Galt?
2. Entrepreneurs make our lives better.
3. There's nothing wrong with women enjoying sex.
4. Differentiate between coercion and altruism.
5. John Galt talks too much.

While it's true that libertarians go on and on about the benefits of markets, I doubt they think of markets being perfect. I surely don't. It's just that people confuse the zeal for markets for advocating it to be the end-all be-all solution. No. It's just that there aren't many libertarians in the world, and with our very limited numbers, all we can do is try and get you people to stop destroying what markets we have.

Markets are not perfect. Again. Markets are not perfect.

Efficient Markets Hypothesis is just a theory. Nobody actually thinks that markets are perfectly efficient. It's like saying gravity doesn't exist by pointing to air friction.

I read Marx in college. I still think there are fundamental, valid criticisms about capitalism in there. But I don't reject socialism based on moral grounds. Yet, liberals (sorry, I meant Progressives) go on, ad infinitum, about how capitalism is evil. No, I reject socialism on a very simple, practical, non-moral, logistical basis: it has nothing to take the place of the price mechanism of markets.

So far, nothing approximates the efficiency of the price mechanism of markets. The government would be incapable of even running a single supermarket chain without this thing we call "price." How would it know how much of the hundreds of different kinds of breads to stock? It's not even easy for Cuba to know how much bread to produce, stock and distribute to their citizens. And they only have one type of bread. It's called bread.

That was a joke, not a strawman. However, declaring markets to be imperfect and imputing a libertarian position that doesn't exist? Well, that is a strawman.


Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 213541)
And the next complaint is that that specific conservatives are taking over the forum. sigh! (see I read Krugman and Klein, too)

So do I, actually. Would it be too much to ask the left to venture out of their comfort bubble every once in a while? Or will you always be sticking to marching orders from the SS (Salon/Slate)?

bkjazfan 06-22-2011 10:30 AM

Re: Quality Control, Ron Paul and Rick Perry
 
If Texas is Mississippi with roads what is California? It's Texas with ample public social services, shortages of electricity, a broken legislature, mounds of debt, extraordinarily high unemployment, a fleeing middle class, high taxes, expensive real estate, wonderful weather, beaches, deserts, mountains, and loads of want to be and real movie & entertainment stars.

badhatharry 06-22-2011 10:32 AM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 213539)
The value of a product is not the literal work that is put into it, it is the profit that can be made over that investment. For instance, say I create wooden sculptures for a living. Say the investment in each chunk of wood is $50, the cost in electric usage (because I do that crazy chainsaw carving thing) is $5, wear and tear on the chainsaw is $5, and misc. expenses are $5. That means that it's $65. But that's not what it's worth. Say the market will pay $100 for it. That means that the time it takes me to create it is worth $35. If it takes me anything over an hour and a half, I should probably invest my time elsewhere. Value is what we earn, not our expenses.

And theoretically, you have risked money you could have spent elsewhere in building you business. If you are not making more than wages you would have been better off investing your money somewhere else or keeping it in the bank. That's why we like and need entrepreneurs. They are willing to risk so that they can make a profit. The benefit to society at large is that they create jobs.

operative 06-22-2011 10:42 AM

Re: Quality Control, Ron Paul and Rick Perry
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkjazfan (Post 213544)
If Texas is Mississippi with roads what is California?

Greece with Hollywood.
Quote:

It's Texas with ample public social services, shortages of electricity, a broken legislature, mounds of debt, extraordinarily high unemployment, a fleeing middle class, high taxes, expensive real estate, wonderful weather, beaches, deserts, mountains, and loads of want to be and real movie & entertainment stars.
That too :p

I really wish California could and would secede from the country and spare us from their insanity.

sugarkang 06-22-2011 10:46 AM

Re: Quality Control, Ron Paul and Rick Perry
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 213546)
I really wish California could and would secede from the country and spare us from their insanity.

I'd like to live in Texas for the business climate. Still, coastal states will always have that one advantage over everyone else: we have shit to look at.

badhatharry 06-22-2011 10:48 AM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 213543)
Markets are not perfect. Again. Markets are not perfect.

Efficient Markets Hypothesis is just a theory. Nobody actually thinks that markets are perfectly efficient. It's like saying gravity doesn't exist by pointing to air friction.

Sorry for posting too much this morning, really I am. But I would like to add this. Markets are not efficient or perfect, nor are they inefficient or imperfect. They exist regardless. The problem for everyone is about what allows them to be most efficient. When they are operating most efficiently, everyone benefits.

operative 06-22-2011 10:53 AM

Re: Quality Control, Ron Paul and Rick Perry
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 213548)
I'd like to live in Texas for the business climate. Still, coastal states will always have that one advantage over everyone else: we have shit to look at.

True. Coastline elevates countries that I would consider moving to in the future.

chiwhisoxx 06-22-2011 11:45 AM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TwinSwords (Post 213519)
That's right. There's a lot of corporate cash being pumped into the wingnut/libertarian think tanks to provide the intellectual rationale for policies that have one purpose: transfer wealth to the top one-tenth of one percent. And pave the way to roll back American life to something like 1903.

I suspect there's another reason why Bob hosts so many libertarians: He wants his website to feature dialogue between the left and the right, but I think he has a natural revulsion to social conservatives. You don't see very many of those on BhTV. So his only option is to fill the rightwing slot with libertarians. That's my guess, no idea if it's true, but any theory of why he has so many libertarians also has to explain why he has so few of the other kinds of right-wingers.

see, Jeff complains about the quality of posts from the right on this board, in the commenters court thread, and then you read something like this...I'd say this falls under the same category of "ideological talking points without any basis in fact". And I'd also say this represents something the left does much better than the right on this board: melodramatic, over the top, ludicrous caricatures of your opponents.

Zeke, you said you didn't mind naming names. Am I (or anyone else, really) supposed to take something like this seriously? I wouldn't ask if I thought this was an isolated post, but it's pretty common.

operative 06-22-2011 11:51 AM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx (Post 213557)
see, Jeff complains about the quality of posts from the right on this board, in the commenters court thread, and then you read something like this...I'd say this falls under the same category of "ideological talking points without any basis in fact". And I'd also say this represents something the left does much better than the right on this board: melodramatic, over the top, ludicrous caricatures of your opponents.

Unfortunately, Aem appears to think of TS as the 'principled left' (my words, not his), himself as a moderate, and everyone to the left of him, at least everyone who lacks the patience and temperament of Mother Theresa (rf) to be 'crazy wingnuts' who are, of course, ruining the site with their talk of free markets and free people.

Don Zeko 06-22-2011 11:56 AM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Florian (Post 213517)
That is the fundamental difference between your posts and those of the libertarians here. They know next to nothing about the health care system as it actually exists in the US, and nothing at all about the health care systems that exist in Europe---which are all different in any case and cannot be summarily described or dismissed as "socialist/socialized," to use this meaningless jargon that Libertarians so love. They are also superior in terms of outcomes and costs, besides being more just. But arguing that the US is not Number 1 in this area will always incur the wrath of some Americans.




And besides, who wants to hear for the umteenth time the tenets of their simplistic creed? That seems to be their main justification for posting here. What amazes me is that the BHTV allots so many diavlogs to them. Are they really so representative of the general population?

Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 213525)
There are elements of certain plans--most namely, the Swiss model--that are quite appealing. In fact, the Swiss model is more free-market than the American model. But it is saddled with the mistaken notion that it is correct for the state to compel a citizen to purchase a product to remain in legal standing.

And there you have it. Why does Operative like Switzerland's system? Not because of any kind of analysis of its practical effects, but because it fits better into his abstract philosophical ideal than the United States' system does. And what is his one reservation about it? That it includes departures from his abstract ideal. There's no discussion here about the cost of the system, the quality of care, or any of the other things that rational people might care about. Instead we get Libertarianism as tautology: is it socialist? If so it must be bad. Is it free-market? If so it must be good. Who cares how well it works?

Don Zeko 06-22-2011 11:59 AM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 213559)
Unfortunately, Aem appears to think of TS as the 'principled left' (my words, not his), himself as a moderate, and everyone to the left of him, at least everyone who lacks the patience and temperament of Mother Theresa (rf) to be 'crazy wingnuts' who are, of course, ruining the site with their talk of free markets and free people.

Why do you continue to think that the difference between yourself and, say, Jimm47, who Jeff and I like and respect, is how far you are to the right?

AemJeff 06-22-2011 12:03 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx (Post 213557)
see, Jeff complains about the quality of posts from the right on this board, in the commenters court thread, and then you read something like this...I'd say this falls under the same category of "ideological talking points without any basis in fact". And I'd also say this represents something the left does much better than the right on this board: melodramatic, over the top, ludicrous caricatures of your opponents.

Twin clearly labeled the second graf as personal speculation, not as an assertion of truth.

In regard to right-wing think tanks and their funding sources, which part of that isn't true? Heritage, AEI, CEI, Heartland Institute - most of the right-wing-think core - are disreputable, liars and cheats who have been caught in those lies on more than one occasion. (I've linked to plenty of evidence for this assertion many times on this site alone.) And that doesn't even bother to deal directly with the Koch bros and their arguably noxious effect on the public debate.

operative 06-22-2011 12:16 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 213561)
Why do you continue to think that the difference between yourself and, say, Jimm47, who Jeff and I like and respect, is how far you are to the right?

I have no familiarity with Jimm47 so I can not say. My guess would be obsequiousness.

operative 06-22-2011 12:17 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 213562)
Twin clearly labeled the second graf as personal speculation, not as an assertion of truth.

In regard to right-wing think tanks and their funding sources, which part of that isn't true? Heritage, AEI, CEI, Heartland Institute - most of the right-wing-think core - are disreputable, liars and cheats who have been caught in those lies on more than one occasion. (I've linked to plenty of evidence for this assertion many times on this site alone.) And that doesn't even bother to deal directly with the Koch bros and their arguably noxious effect on the public debate.

Another round of "Everyone who disagrees with me is a liar and destroying society."

operative 06-22-2011 12:21 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 213560)
And there you have it. Why does Operative like Switzerland's system? Not because of any kind of analysis of its practical effects, but because it fits better into his abstract philosophical ideal than the United States' system does. And what is his one reservation about it? That it includes departures from his abstract ideal. There's no discussion here about the cost of the system, the quality of care, or any of the other things that rational people might care about. Instead we get Libertarianism as tautology: is it socialist? If so it must be bad. Is it free-market? If so it must be good. Who cares how well it works?

The Swiss model costs more, according to some reports, than some of the other models, but I value freedom more than cost-efficacy (if the government simply monopolizes medicine and tells everyone to suck on a pain pill, we'd save an awful lot of money). I'd far rather live in Switzerland than the United Kingdom.

The problem is that you seem to be unable to understand that libertarians value freedom for the sake of freedom. American liberals tend to not value freedom. Some in fact fear freedom.

conncarroll 06-22-2011 12:23 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 213405)
Conn, this is ridiculous. The Doc Fix situation was exactly the same before the ACA passed and would be exactly the same if it had not. It is absolutely not part of the cuts to Medicare included in the ACA and wasn't counted as a part of its savings. This also means that your assertion that the ACA's cuts come out of payments to physicians is essentially bullshit as well.

The Democrats first fixed the SGR formula in their original legislaiton and then they took it out. The only reason they did so was because they could not find a way to pay for it. But it is still current law. So when Pelosi says "our plan is Medicare" that includes the doc fix cuts. And then there are the additional Medicare cuts. I quote from the CMS:
Quote:

The estimated financial impacts of the Medicare provisions in the PPACA are provided in detail in table 3, attached, which is organized by section of the legislation. Net Medicare savings are estimated to total $575 billion for fiscal years 2010-2019. Substantial savings are attributable to provisions that would, among other changes, reduce Part A and Part B payment levels and adjust future “market basket” payment updates for productivity improvements ($233 billion); eliminate the Medicare Improvement Fund ($27 billion); reduce disproportionate share hospital (DSH) payments ($50 billion); reduce Medicare Advantage payment benchmarks and permanently extend the authority to adjust for coding intensity ($145 billion); freeze the income thresholds for the Part B income-related premium for 9 years ($8 billion); implement an Independent Payment Advisory Board together with strict Medicare expenditure growth rate targets ($24 billion); and increase the HI payroll tax rate by 0.9 percentage point for individuals with incomes above $200,000 and families above $250,000 ($63 billion).
Notice how the Medicare Advantage savings only total $145 billion out of the $575 billion that Obamacare cut from Medicare. That was what I was pushing back Noah on. He was asserting that the MA cuts were the only Medicare cuts in Medicare. They most certainly were not.

graz 06-22-2011 12:31 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 213564)
I have no familiarity with Jimm47 so I can not say. My guess would be obsequiousness.

Nope ... Try obnoxiousness ... It fits.

sugarkang 06-22-2011 02:24 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 213540)
Interesting. Tyler Cowen thinks that the elimination of some of Glass-Steagal is what ultimately contributed to the righting of the ship because Bank of America was able to buy Merill Lynch, et al.

I like Tyler Cowen a lot. I also have no problem being wrong about Glass-Steagall. In his post, he explains that a combination of commercial and investment banking created more stable institutions. That makes sense. But isn't that also the very definition of "Too Big to Fail"?

Diversification within one institution makes the institution more fault tolerant. However, the system becomes less fault tolerant because there are fewer institutions overall. Now, there's no doubt in my mind that he knows this and that he has a good explanation. Maybe it's in the studies he's linked to, but I wish he had just explained it in the blog post.

operative 06-22-2011 02:30 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 213587)
I like Tyler Cowen a lot.

That should go without saying--anyone with an informed opinion ought to appreciate Cowen. I disagree with his Great Stagnation argument, but the man's a genius.

Florian 06-22-2011 02:31 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 213560)
And there you have it. Why does Operative like Switzerland's system? Not because of any kind of analysis of its practical effects, but because it fits better into his abstract philosophical ideal than the United States' system does. And what is his one reservation about it? That it includes departures from his abstract ideal. There's no discussion here about the cost of the system, the quality of care, or any of the other things that rational people might care about. Instead we get Libertarianism as tautology: is it socialist? If so it must be bad. Is it free-market? If so it must be good. Who cares how well it works?

That is indeed the problem. Switzerland has always appealed to American libertarians. Its banks are a tax haven for the rich and, as Orson Wells observed, its main claim to fame is the invention of the coo-coo clock.

Well, that is somewhat unjust. But it is odd, to say the least, that it is always the very small European countries that libertarians single out for praise in this connection. I think it has something to do with the fact that a comparison with France, Germany or the UK might not be so flattering to American amour-propre.

operative 06-22-2011 02:35 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Florian (Post 213590)
That is indeed the problem. Switzerland has always appealed to American libertarians. Its banks are a tax haven for the rich and, as Orson Wells observed, its main claim to fame is the invention of the coo-coo clock.

Well, that is somewhat unjust. But it is odd, to say the least, that it is always the very small European countries that libertarians single out for praise in this connection. I think it has something to do with the fact that a comparison with France, Germany or the UK might not be so flattering to American amour-propre.

Believe me, it's not to make us look good--quite the opposite, in fact. Switzerland makes us look bad in a few respects, and Estonia in several more. The UK is becoming a rather rotten country of spoiled, self-obsessed and self-entitled bums (see, for instance, the violent reaction to tuition being raised), and Germany just jumped off the deep end of the anti-nuclear fear mongering. I will give you that France has done an admirable job of using nuclear technology, something that some irrational Americans still refuse to do.

But honestly, I can't think of a better European country than Estonia (unless we're talking about weather).

Florian 06-22-2011 03:05 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 213593)
But honestly, I can't think of a better European country than Estonia (unless we're talking about weather).

That is an interesting, indeed an amusing preference.....I dare say shared by few. Are the Estonians healthy? Personally, I prefer a country that has good health care AND has made significant contributions to world civilization.

operative 06-22-2011 03:16 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Florian (Post 213599)
That is an interesting, indeed an amusing preference.....I dare say shared by few. Are the Estonians healthy? Personally, I prefer a country that has good health care AND has made significant contributions to world civilization.

Estonia's ALE is 74.8, which isn't exactly great, but it should continue to rise substantially as the country becomes wealthier. Estonia won't compete on the contributions to world civilization scale, but they will compete on the contributions to modern technology scale: Skype was designed by Estonians, and Estonia is the most linked-up country in the world.

Contributions to world civilization are great, but I value low taxation, low regulation, nice urban design (and a vibrant, diverse urban sphere), and nice architecture. Estonia has all of these. I also value sun, though, and Estonia is quite lacking in that respect :\

Don Zeko 06-22-2011 03:34 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Florian (Post 213517)
And besides, who wants to hear for the umteenth time the tenets of their simplistic creed? That seems to be their main justification for posting here. What amazes me is that the BHTV allots so many diavlogs to them. Are they really so representative of the general population?

They have something in common with physicists:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/physicists.png

sugarkang 06-22-2011 03:40 PM

Re: Quality Control (Conn Carroll & Noah Kristula-Green)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 213589)
That should go without saying--anyone with an informed opinion ought to appreciate Cowen. I disagree with his Great Stagnation argument, but the man's a genius.

Heh. So do I. I think it's more like the Great Disruption, but whatever.


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