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Bloggingheads 02-01-2011 11:02 PM

Values Added: Egypt and Islam (Sarah Posner & Haroon Moghul)
 

BornAgainDemocrat 02-02-2011 02:30 PM

Sarah Posner: homo paranoidus?
 
Sarah Posner is a peculiar bird, though I can't quite put my finger on what it is about her. She is a paranoid's paranoid, I guess, her paranoia focused on other people's paranoia. This leads to some odd distortions. It's as though she looks at some groups with a magnifying glass and others through the wrong end of a telescope.

Anyway I am relieved to learn that Sharia law is not a threat to the U.S. Constitution (even if it might present problems in certain local communities) for the simple reason that most American Muslims don't take their religion very seriously. That's the big news to come out lately -- that and the way the Egyptian people are demonstrating their humanity to the rest of the world.

JonIrenicus 02-02-2011 02:35 PM

You don't need to downplay the muslim brotherhood
 
I was listening to this diavlog and nearly EVERY time the topic of the muslim brotherhood came up I got the sense Moghul and to a lesser extent Posner was white washing the negative impacts.

He refused to wade into WHY people might be wary of their gaining influence and power. It's not just that they have a more conservative view of Islam, the worry is about the IMPOSITION of that view on others. He could not bring himself to deal and talk honestly with that real worry.

Doing so does NOT mean we'll all fall into an Israeli style view of the situation. What it means is he gets increased credibility when rebutting the assertion of a muslim brotherhood takeover because the act of acknowledging the true undersides in all their glory sends a signal that he is not oblivious to the downsides of his position, and that he has at a bare minimum weighed those downsides against other things.

Taffy 02-02-2011 02:40 PM

Re: Values Added: Egypt and Islam (Sarah Posner & Haroon Moghul)
 
This was an illuminating discussion. Thank you.

carkrueger 02-02-2011 07:52 PM

Re: Values Added: Egypt and Islam (Sarah Posner & Haroon Moghul)
 
Dangerous Naïveté

"It is simply delirious to suggest that we can work with the Muslim Brotherhood, that the Brotherhood has renounced violence, or that a Brotherhood-led government will ultimately be better for the United States or, for that matter, for Egyptians."

"The Muslim Brotherhood, which is staunchly opposed to the West and which supports aggression against U.S. forces operating (and promoting democracy) in Muslim countries, is pledged to the destruction of Israel. Hamas is a Brotherhood franchise. The Brotherhood would neither keep the peace nor support our efforts against terrorism. Its doctrine is a pro-terrorist doctrine. If you fall for its claims to be against “terrorism,” you are falling for a word game — they do not consider attacks against Israel or against Western forces in Muslim countries to be terrorism. They consider that to be resistance."

Andy McCarthy
Excerpt From National Review

johnmarzan 02-02-2011 08:12 PM

Re: Values Added: Egypt and Islam (Sarah Posner & Haroon Moghul)
 
anybody who uses the term "Islamophobia" doesnt deserve to be taken seriously.

johnmarzan 02-02-2011 08:15 PM

Re: Values Added: Egypt and Islam (Sarah Posner & Haroon Moghul)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by carkrueger (Post 196832)
Dangerous Naïveté

"It is simply delirious to suggest that we can work with the Muslim Brotherhood, that the Brotherhood has renounced violence, or that a Brotherhood-led government will ultimately be better for the United States or, for that matter, for Egyptians."

"The Muslim Brotherhood, which is staunchly opposed to the West and which supports aggression against U.S. forces operating (and promoting democracy) in Muslim countries, is pledged to the destruction of Israel. Hamas is a Brotherhood franchise. The Brotherhood would neither keep the peace nor support our efforts against terrorism. Its doctrine is a pro-terrorist doctrine. If you fall for its claims to be against “terrorism,” you are falling for a word game — they do not consider attacks against Israel or against Western forces in Muslim countries to be terrorism. They consider that to be resistance."

Andy McCarthy
Excerpt From National Review

Conor friedersdorf gets smacked down by claire berlinski

http://ricochet.com/main-feed/Yes-Ha...im-Brotherhood

Quote:

Yes, Hamas is the Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood
Claire Berlinski, Ed. · 5 hours ago

Conor Friedersdorf, I don't know what your problem is with Andy McCarthy. But you've got better things to do with your time on a day like this than to denounce his "sophistry" about the Muslim Brotherhood. This is a particularly time-wasting paragraph:

"The Daily Dish understands all too well that it's more complicated than McCarthy leads us to believe because we've been struggling through this stuff in an effort to inform as best we can. The only thing of which I'm certain is that I can direct you to people with higher quality arguments as you muddle through."

Conor, you've directed your readers to me. And I have consistently said just what Andy McCarthy says about the Muslim Brotherhood. (Here's my higher-quality argument, Dish readers: Andy's right.)

You've also directed them to Eli Lake. At minute 4:53, Eli makes precisely, but precisely, the point you're denouncing as simplistic, namely, that Hamas is the Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood.

You've also directed them to Leslie Gelb and Jeffrey Goldberg. In other words, you've actually directed your readers to no one who would disagree with Andy, other than Daniel Levy, who's a nut.

JonIrenicus 02-02-2011 08:20 PM

Re: Values Added: Egypt and Islam (Sarah Posner & Haroon Moghul)
 
Speaking of which, Claire would be another good person to have on this time.

johnmarzan 02-03-2011 12:23 AM

Re: Values Added: Egypt and Islam (Sarah Posner & Haroon Moghul)
 
here's an alternative view:

http://pajamasmedia.com/michaeltotte...hoes-in-egypt/

Ken Davis 02-03-2011 12:48 AM

Re: Values Added: Egypt and Islam (Sarah Posner & Haroon Moghul)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by johnmarzan (Post 196835)
anybody who uses the term "Islamophobia" doesnt deserve to be taken seriously.

You're joking, right?

Don Zeko 02-03-2011 01:16 AM

Re: Sarah Posner: homo paranoidus?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BornAgainDemocrat (Post 196785)
that and the way the Egyptian people are demonstrating their humanity to the rest of the world.

You've used this phrase before in another thread. If you don't mind, I'd like for you to unpack what you mean by it a bit. I initially read an implication here that the humanity of the Egyptian people in some way needed to be proven before this week, but I don't want to criticize unfairly. What are you getting at?

bjkeefe 02-03-2011 03:21 AM

Re: Values Added: Egypt and Islam (Sarah Posner & Haroon Moghul)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by carkrueger (Post 196832)
[...]

Andy McCarthy
Excerpt From National Review

Who knew anyone still relied on this guy for anything anymore?

bjkeefe 02-03-2011 03:24 AM

Re: Values Added: Egypt and Islam (Sarah Posner & Haroon Moghul)
 
I enjoyed listening to this diavlog. I'm sorry I didn't get around to saying so before the Guano Horde descended. I expect, however, that many other people got a lot more out of the diavlog besides hearing excuses to reload their Depends, and, like me, felt a little awkward just saying thanks.

Bhtv could use some Like buttons.

Baz 02-03-2011 04:59 AM

Sarah Posner & Haroon Moghul
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by carkrueger (Post 196832)
Dangerous Naïveté

"It is simply delirious to suggest that we can work with the Muslim Brotherhood, that the Brotherhood has renounced violence, or that a Brotherhood-led government will ultimately be better for the United States or, for that matter, for Egyptians."

"The Muslim Brotherhood, which is staunchly opposed to the West and which supports aggression against U.S. forces operating (and promoting democracy) in Muslim countries, is pledged to the destruction of Israel. Hamas is a Brotherhood franchise. The Brotherhood would neither keep the peace nor support our efforts against terrorism. Its doctrine is a pro-terrorist doctrine. If you fall for its claims to be against “terrorism,” you are falling for a word game — they do not consider attacks against Israel or against Western forces in Muslim countries to be terrorism. They consider that to be resistance."

Andy McCarthy
Excerpt From National Review

How can you be "promoting democracy" in "Muslim countries" when the Muslims in these "Muslim countries" are telling you to get the hell out of their country?
Dangerous Stupidité

johnmarzan 02-03-2011 10:55 AM

Re: Values Added: Egypt and Islam (Sarah Posner & Haroon Moghul)
 
okay, now that we've heard two leftwingers defend the muslim brotherhood, it's now time for bhtv to bring in contributors who are more skeptical of the group than they are.

graz 02-03-2011 10:57 AM

Re: Values Added: Egypt and Islam (Sarah Posner & Haroon Moghul)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by johnmarzan (Post 196900)
okay, now that we've heard two leftwingers defend the muslim brotherhood, it's now time for bhtv to bring in contributors who are more skeptical of the group than they are.

Let's grant for arguments sake that they are evil incarnate. If you were King for a day, what would you do about it?

johnmarzan 02-03-2011 11:16 AM

Re: Values Added: Egypt and Islam (Sarah Posner & Haroon Moghul)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by graz (Post 196901)
Let's grant for arguments sake that they are evil incarnate. If you were King for a day, what would you do about it?

Conor Friedersdorf and Claire Berlinski.

bjkeefe 02-03-2011 04:08 PM

Re: Values Added: Egypt and Islam (Sarah Posner & Haroon Moghul)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by johnmarzan (Post 196903)
Conor Friedersdorf and Claire Berlinski.

I'd like to hear from Claire on this, for sure. As for Conor, well ..., there are probably people better informed, let's just say.

sapeye 02-03-2011 07:44 PM

Re: Values Added: Egypt and Islam (Sarah Posner & Haroon Moghul)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 196926)
I'd like to hear from Claire on this, for sure. As for Conor, well ..., there are probably people better informed, let's just say.

Agreed. I appreciated Haroon Moghul's coherence, and I'd also like to see some thoughtful push back so we get a broader perspective.

One thing didn't make any sense to me: http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/339...8:25&out=39:05. Can anyone explain how these Islamic principles are completely compatible with western finance?

bjkeefe 02-03-2011 10:19 PM

Re: Values Added: Egypt and Islam (Sarah Posner & Haroon Moghul)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sapeye (Post 196982)
Agreed. I appreciated Haroon Moghul's coherence, and I'd also like to see some thoughtful push back so we get a broader perspective.

One thing didn't make any sense to me: http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/339...8:25&out=39:05. Can anyone explain how these Islamic principles are completely compatible with western finance?

I think he was trying to say that apart from those things he just listed (like making money off of money, charging excessive interest, etc.), most other Muslim principles of finance are compatible with Western-style finance. IIRC, he also goes on after the part you dingalinked to talk about the comparison between this sort of conscientious attitude among Muslim investors and Westerners, who seek out things like socially responsive mutual funds.

sapeye 02-04-2011 03:22 AM

Re: Values Added: Egypt and Islam (Sarah Posner & Haroon Moghul)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 197024)
I think he was trying to say that apart from those things he just listed (like making money off of money, charging excessive interest, etc.), most other Muslim principles of finance are compatible with Western-style finance. IIRC, he also goes on after the part you dingalinked to talk about the comparison between this sort of conscientious attitude among Muslim investors and Westerners, who seek out things like socially responsive mutual funds.

Yes, perhaps it was just a misstatement, but I also have a sense that some aspects of Sharia might not integrate as smoothly into Western culture as he claims. I would like to listen to him in conversation with another, more conservative, Muslim, rather than with a non-Muslim.

bjkeefe 02-04-2011 03:41 AM

Re: Values Added: Egypt and Islam (Sarah Posner & Haroon Moghul)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sapeye (Post 197040)
Yes, perhaps it was just a misstatement, but I also have a sense that some aspects of Sharia might not integrate as smoothly into Western culture as he claims.

I expect you're right about that. On the other hand, it's not as though we don't already have plenty of religion-based groups in this country who don't seem particularly driven to integrate into the culture writ large, and is that really a problem? I'm thinking of ultra-Orthodox Jews, the Amish, and various of the fringe Christian groups, for example.

Quote:

I would like to listen to him in conversation with another, more conservative, Muslim, rather than with a non-Muslim.
Could be interesting, although I think it'd be quite a trick to get someone to come on here to argue "You Americans actually have plenty to worry about, concerning me and my fellow believers."

I'm exaggerating, but I think you see my point. Who's going to want to come on and argue the POV that Muslims can't "integrate ... smoothly into Western culture?"

sapeye 02-04-2011 04:37 AM

Re: Values Added: Egypt and Islam (Sarah Posner & Haroon Moghul)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 197042)
On the other hand, it's not as though we don't already have plenty of religion-based groups in this country who don't seem particularly driven to integrate into the culture writ large, and is that really a problem?

No, not necessarily a problem, as long as there is mutual respect. Fundamentalist Christians, because they are dominant in some regions and also frequently intolerant, pose a more serious risk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 197042)
Could be interesting, although I think it'd be quite a trick to get someone to come on here to argue "You Americans actually have plenty to worry about, concerning me and my fellow believers."

I'm exaggerating, but I think you see my point. Who's going to want to come on and argue the POV that Muslims can't "integrate ... smoothly into Western culture?"

Good point, and thanks for the smile. But I suspect there are second generation Muslim intellectuals who are a bit edgier and willing to challenge the assimilation model.

bjkeefe 02-04-2011 04:39 AM

Re: Values Added: Egypt and Islam (Sarah Posner & Haroon Moghul)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sapeye (Post 197045)
No, not necessarily a problem, as long as there is mutual respect. Fundamentalist Christians, because they are dominant in some regions and also frequently intolerant, pose a more serious risk.



Good point, and thanks for the smile. But I suspect there are second generation Muslim intellectuals who are a bit edgier and willing to challenge the assimilation model.

Agree with both.

johnmarzan 02-07-2011 10:27 AM

Re: Values Added: Egypt and Islam (Sarah Posner & Haroon Moghul)
 
The difference between Hamas, Hezbollah and the MB.

Hamas has a political wing (which does social services to palestinians), AND a military/terrorist wing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

Hezbollah has the same setup also (political/military wings)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah

the Muslim Brotherhood in egypt, as far as we know, has no armed terror wing yet (thanks to mubarak, i guess). it does run extensive social service and charitable programs in the community though.


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