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Bloggingheads 06-26-2008 09:19 AM

The Third Man?
 

TwinSwords 06-26-2008 10:20 AM

Re: The Third Man?
 
Jane is great. Thank you, Jane, for spending some time with us.

And thank you, too, Mr. Barr, for coming on to Bloggingheads.

Good luck in Georgia, Alaska, and Missouri!

The foundering Republican Party has lost another constituency. All that's left now are the religious right and the authoritarians. And, I guess, those willing to trade American values for tax cuts.

AemJeff 06-26-2008 10:33 AM

Re: The Third Man?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TwinSwords (Post 81341)
Jane is great. Thank you, Jane, for spending some time with us.

And thank you, too, Mr. Barr, for coming on to Bloggingheads.

Good luck in Georgia, Alaska, and Missouri!

The foundering Republican Party has lost another constituency. All that's left now are the religious right and the authoritarians. And, I guess, those willing to trade American values for tax cuts.

Yeah. I'll admit to being utterly charmed by each of Hamsher's appearances here. Barr, to whom I reacted similarly to Jane's description of her own feelings during the impeachment debacle, strikes me now as an eminently reasonable man. I probably won't ever have a fine-grained agreement with him on an issue by issue basis, but I can support what I understand as the process by which he arrives at his conclusions. I'd vote for Bob long before I'd vote for McCain, and judging by what he says here, on some issues - privacy, certainly - he's preferable to Obama.

harkin 06-26-2008 11:22 AM

Re: The Third Man?
 
How perfectly valuable, two people completely against the FISA agreement having a discussion on how insidious it is. Is this BHTV or Countdown?

It is nice however to see that Jane can relate to a (albeit former) member of of Congress without stooping to racist caricatures.

Would be much more informative to see Hamsher and Barr discuss today's SCOTUS gun ownership decision, illegal immigration or the Fairness Doctrine.

Congrats Rep Barr for allowing youself to be used as the Ross Perot for 2008.

zookarama 06-26-2008 12:03 PM

go Jane!
 
I have just donated to a candidate that I previously would have actively opposed. Mr. Barr and I have little in common except our outrage at the missuse of the constitution- but that's more than enough for me to help ensure that his views are publicly aired.

and more Jane, please.

StillmanThomas 06-26-2008 01:17 PM

Post-Obama depression
 
Well, I've been a registered Democrat for about a month now, after 40 years of refusing to be in either party. Today I feel disgusted, sick to my stomach, slimed and generally horrified, after the Democratic meltdown on FISA. Is there any politician anywhere who isn't a malignant narcissist, a two-faced panderer, a greasy weasel out to take a buck with both hands from whatever moneyed group comes slinking to his back door? I told myself I'd give the Dems a chance, but I'm definitely re-registering as unaffiliated.

I have to say, considering Bob Barr for anything but dog catcher is a stretch for me, but by God, I'm going to look into his candidacy. I'm presuming that next year the Democrats will have solid majorities in both houses of Congress (as if that would make any difference to a runaway executive), so I've been a little troubled about electing a Democratic president, too. I'm thinking of removing my name from Obama's mailing list. He's the first candidate I've ever donated money to. I feel like such a fool. I'm a sucker for smart and articulate. Anyone who wants the office isn't fit to serve.

Attention Bob Wright: Don't waste your time giving Obama any vertebrae; he has no spine to put them in.

Gotta go take a shower.

bkjazfan 06-26-2008 02:07 PM

Re: Post-Obama depression
 
Bob Barr polling at 15%; talk about secrecy, what poll did he get that from?

John

popcorn_karate 06-26-2008 02:26 PM

Re: Post-Obama depression
 
I have to agree with you. Obama looks more and more like every other slimy, spineless dweeb of a politician. I do hold out hope that he will re-discover a spine after getting elected - but thats probably a delusional way to delay having to face-up to reality.

StillmanThomas 06-26-2008 02:38 PM

Re: Post-Obama depression
 
My one hope with Obama was the way he was getting small-dollar contributions. It turned out that he got about half of his quarter billion primary dollars from large money donations. It was only a slim chance that he offered; I knew that all the time. Still, it hurts to see him lay down like this. I believe that the corporations will utterly destroy whatever's left of this so-called democracy. We can't stop them from waging endless war and looting the treasury through corporate welfare. They're just too powerful.

ohcomeon 06-26-2008 02:51 PM

Re: The Third Man?
 
Straight up questions - straight forward answers. Why can't it always be like that? Oh yeah, because they want to continue stealing from us.

Eastwest 06-26-2008 03:14 PM

Re: Post-Obama depression
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bokonon (Post 81357)
.... I feel like such a fool. I'm a sucker for smart and articulate. Anyone who wants the office isn't fit to serve.

Attention Bob Wright: Don't waste your time giving Obama any vertebrae; he has no spine to put them in.

Gotta go take a shower.

Dare I say, "I told you so."?

(The "you" being generic for the BHTV Obama cheerleaders, not necessarily Bokonon specifically.)

When Obama spoke of "change," his pied-piper marching band didn't realize he was actually referring to his ability to act like a chameleon: forever changing appearance solely to ensure survival, flashing the long projectile tongue to mesmerize the audience....

EW

Eastwest 06-26-2008 03:39 PM

Re: The Third Man?
 
Oh, yeah: Jane Hamsher for President!

EW

graz 06-26-2008 04:00 PM

Re: Post-Obama depression
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastwest (Post 81367)
Dare I say, "I told you so."?

(The "you" being generic for the BHTV Obama cheerleaders, not necessarily Bokonon specifically.)

When Obama spoke of "change," his pied-piper marching band didn't realize he was actually referring to his ability to act like a chameleon: forever changing appearance solely to ensure survival, flashing the long projectile tongue to mesmerize the audience....

EW

May I remind you that you are on the record as a realist/cynic regarding the ability of any politico to effect change when confronted by the monster that is the U.S. government/corporate interests.
You never managed to square that with your support of Hillary - but lets leave that aside. Feel free to gloat at every complaint voiced here. But remember that you are continuing to build the straw man that posits an expectation that Obama was and is a messiah and not a politician. You might enjoy beating the dead horse, but the redundancy fails to engage those who are wiling to come to terms with the present tense. I am not an optimist either, especially confirmed as I reviewed every diatribe by George Carlin this week. But Jane Hamsher is not as viable as she is attractive.
So if the gloating continues, at least take a new approach if possible - for the sake of variety at least.

Eastwest 06-26-2008 04:29 PM

Re: Post-Obama depression
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by graz (Post 81374)
May I remind you that you are on the record as a realist/cynic

Correction: That's "realist/skeptic," i.e. I'm not a "cynic." But this is really special: Obama's voting for nearly unbridled spying on any American citizen at any time really does finally mark him irreversibly as a completely dishonest man, one perfectly willing to sell rotting dog meat under a "fresh-mutton" sign. Strictly pukesville for being such a fantastic demonstration of his spinelessness.

Quote:

You never managed to square that with your support of Hillary
Actually, I did, repeatedly, and you all just didn't listen, typical for Obama disciples: filter out all dissonant messaging without regard to cogency or force of logic.

Quote:

You are continuing to build the straw man that posits an expectation that Obama was and is a messiah
I certainly wasn't the one that fostered placing him on that pedestal. He did so himself with the assistance of his MSM and Internet courtiers. That he would fall off a throne he had no business pretending to occupy was obvious from the start. The throne's been crumbling since March. We'll just have to hope he squeaks through and provides us with 4 more years of ongoing comedy. I'd hate to see his arrogant clown show halt abruptly in early November.

Quote:

Jane Hamsher is not as viable as she is attractive.
Actually, her "attractiveness" is in the character of her mind: Always seems capable of a bright, fresh take on things. Really one of the stars of BHTV as I see it.

In any case, there's some question as to whether she's any less viable than Obama. (Depends on how completely he self-destructs. It's sort of like watching a slow-motion melting crumble of an iceberg into the sea. His endorsement of citizen surveillance was one of those really huge chunks making a spectacular splash leaving a mere mole-hill where once there was [the mere reputation of] a mountain.)

Cheers,
EW

bkjazfan 06-26-2008 04:30 PM

Re: Post-Obama depression
 
How about Barr's ego-maniacal running mate Wayne Allen Root? Give me a break. Please, Bob, don't have him on bloggingheadstv.

John

StillmanThomas 06-26-2008 04:48 PM

Re: The Third Man?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastwest (Post 81371)
Oh, yeah: Jane Hamsher for President!EW

At last! Change we can believe in. Sign me up.

graz 06-26-2008 05:02 PM

Re: Post-Obama depression
 
RE: EW
Correction: That's "realist/skeptic," i.e. I'm not a "cynic." But this is really special: Obama's voting for nearly unbridled spying on any American citizen at any time really does finally mark him irreversibly as a completely dishonest man, one perfectly willing to sell rotting dog meat under a "fresh-mutton" sign. Strictly pukesville for being such a fantastic demonstration of his spinelessness.

I say it's a distinction without much difference, but I concede the explanation you offered previously. The Mutton reference not so much.


Actually, I did, repeatedly, and you all just didn't listen, typical for Obama disciples: filter out all dissonant messaging without regard to cogency or force of logic.

I am suggesting that you are of two minds here. As you have stated, no President is capable of addressing the juggernaut of special interests or effecting the necessary legislation or alternative means. Yet, her highness is somehow an exception?


I certainly wasn't the one that fostered placing him on that pedestal. He did so himself with the assistance of his MSM and Internet courtiers. That he would fall off a throne he had no business pretending to occupy was obvious from the start. The throne's been crumbling since March. We'll just have to hope he squeaks through and provides us with 4 more years of ongoing comedy. I'd hate to see his arrogant clown show halt abruptly in early November.

At least your conceding the potential reality of electoral success - even if to satisfy your twisted ( insert winking icon here) hopes.

Actually, her "attractiveness" is in the character of her mind: Always seems capable of a bright, fresh take on things. Really one of the stars of BHTV as I see it.

Agreed.

In any case, there's some question as to whether she's any less viable than Obama. (Depends on how completely he self-destructs. It's sort of like watching a slow-motion melting crumble of an iceberg into the sea. His endorsement of citizen surveillance was one of those really huge chunks making a spectacular splash leaving a mere mole-hill where once there was [the mere reputation of] a mountain.)

Not surprisingly, where you see disaster many find optimism. Even cynic/skeptic/realists like me.

harkin 06-27-2008 10:12 AM

Re: Post-Obama depression
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkjazfan (Post 81376)
How about Barr's ego-maniacal running mate Wayne Allen Root? Give me a break. Please, Bob, don't have him on bloggingheadstv.

John


uh......is this the same Wayne Allen Root who shills for my credit card number on Sunday mornings in the fall for his 'five star gold key' NFL picks?

THAT guy is Barr's VP choice?

Wow

WhitfieldGeorge 06-28-2008 06:23 PM

Re: The Third Man?
 
I am so glad now that I have found a candidate for President who believes in the Constitution. I have looked at Bob Barr's website and then the Libertarian Party's website and am impressed. It is so good to hear a Presidential candidate bringing our threatened civil liberties into the public discourse. We need peace, prosperity and freedom. I am supporting Bob Barr now.

piscivorous 06-29-2008 11:32 AM

Re: The Third Man?
 
Apparently you have never attended some of there party meetings. I have gone to a few and was impressed with the distinctness of the personalities. Even with my somewhat colorful and varied past, I found many of them intelligent but lacking any sense of proportion. Representative Barr is far from libertarian, check his rhetoric and support for the drug war, thus amply displaying there distinctness and lack of proportion.

bjkeefe 06-29-2008 02:50 PM

Re: The Third Man?
 
pisc:

Quote:

Even with my somewhat colorful and varied past, I found many of them intelligent but lacking any sense of proportion.
Good point. I'd add that it's easy to talk nobly and to have a pure platform with all the right planks when there's no realistic chance of winning an election. (See also: Kucinich, Dennis; Paul, Ron; and Nader, Ralph.)

Wonderment 06-29-2008 03:04 PM

Re: The Third Man?
 
Quote:

I'd add that it's easy to talk nobly and to have a pure platform with all the right planks when there's no realistic chance of winning an election. (See also: Kucinich, Dennis; Paul, Ron; and Nader, Ralph.)
Just for the record, Dennis has won 7 elections (one for mayor of Cleveland and sixth of the US Congress). Ron Paul has been elected to Congress 9 times.

You are right on Nader (never won anything) and right to exclude Barr, since he only won on a traditional platform.

But I wouldn't say it's easy to have a pure platform when you can't win. A corrollary would seem to be that you have to have a dirty platform to win.

Third party candidates perform, in my view, an enormous service to the country by running on the truth of their convictions and getting minority views into the public debate.

But even disregarding that, the problem with mainstream candidates is not so much that they fail to adhere to the views of their constituencies or the platform of their party, but that they betray the positions they supposedly held once they are nominated or elected.

bjkeefe 06-29-2008 03:43 PM

Re: The Third Man?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 81611)
Just for the record, Dennis has won 7 elections (one for mayor of Cleveland and sixth of the US Congress). Ron Paul has been elected to Congress 9 times.

Good points. I do wonder, however, if they are as clear in their positions when they run for their seats in Congress as they are when they run for president. But mostly, good points.

Quote:

But I wouldn't say it's easy to have a pure platform when you can't win. A corrollary would seem to be that you have to have a dirty platform to win.
"Dirty" is a little harsh, but yes, I am saying that in order to be a realistic contender for president, one does have to be a little ambiguous, emphasize different things depending on which group is being addressed, and adopt more compromising positions on issues.

Quote:

Third party candidates perform, in my view, an enormous service to the country by running on the truth of their convictions and getting minority views into the public debate.
Completely agree.

Quote:

But even disregarding that, the problem with mainstream candidates is not so much that they fail to adhere to the views of their constituencies or the platform of their party, but that they betray the positions they supposedly held once they are nominated or elected.
There is no doubt that there is a lot to this. But still, there is real meaning to two sayings in their defense: (1) You can't govern if you don't win; and (2) Politics is the art of the possible.

I'm always happy to have idealists pushing the pragmatists to do the right thing, but I also value people who can get things done.

wiretap 06-30-2008 03:10 PM

Re: The Third Man?
 
Barr is a bright, politically astute, and articulate man, and Jane's interview helped bring out his best. However, accolades for Barr's positions from the swinging in the wind "blogosphere" will receive less credibility from me after the trashing of Senator Mike Gravel. Gravel will be remembered for voicing the same views - and more - without the worry of past conservative/religious credentials. Plus, Gravel offered a plan to give Americans their power back, rather than us giving it away each and every election. If we had a national program to make laws, George Bush and Dick Cheney would be behind bars. That's too much to take: America, and the "blogosphere", are clearly not mature enough to handle the responsibility for their own future.

Gravel was dissed simply because his credible message would stand in the way of the closeted conservative Clinton, and the serial disappointment Obama, so he was tagged the "nutcase". How dare Gravel get in the way. How dare he call for Clinton and Obama to show some leadership as US Senators *right now*, and push back against a maladministration that has led our nation to near-ruin.

The "blogosphere" deserves to share in the slower, but just as certain, death of the US Constitution, and the politics as usual under Obama. We could all instead have some real hope based on a moral platform of action. Rather, we get a load of meaningless P-R, and lean towards individuals like Barr, and in some camps Nader, to restore our country. Remember Clinton's harr-dy-harr laugh at Gravel in the early debates? Not as comical as this.


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