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Wonderment 11-23-2011 12:21 AM

Profile in courage: Oregon governor John Kitzhaber
 
Bravo!

Quote:

I refuse to be a part of this compromised and inequitable system any longer, and I will not allow further executions while I am governor.

apple 11-23-2011 09:08 PM

Re: Profile in courage: Oregon governor John Kitzhaber
 
Abuse of power. Impeach and remove from office, then indict.

Sulla the Dictator 11-24-2011 03:28 AM

Re: Profile in courage: Oregon governor John Kitzhaber
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 232507)

Lets throw a parade to celebrate the weakness. Good thing that the state of Oregon is the personal province of the Lord Governor, and not a democratic entity whose law he swore to uphold and enforce. The Pacific Northwest has become a great disappointment to me over the last 20 years.

eeeeeeeli 11-25-2011 11:06 AM

Re: Profile in courage: Oregon governor John Kitzhaber
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator (Post 232619)
Lets throw a parade to celebrate the weakness.

I assume you're calling a desire not to execute a weakness. I would say the opposite, that the desire to execute is the real weakness, the ease of giving in to what is likely the perfectly natural impulse of retribution. Overcoming this desire and choosing forgiveness, I would call the real strength.

Sulla the Dictator 11-25-2011 05:51 PM

Re: Profile in courage: Oregon governor John Kitzhaber
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eeeeeeeli (Post 232665)
I assume you're calling a desire not to execute a weakness. I would say the opposite, that the desire to execute is the real weakness, the ease of giving in to what is likely the perfectly natural impulse of retribution. Overcoming this desire and choosing forgiveness, I would call the real strength.

Except that it isn't overcoming any such desire. It is maudlin sentimentality. The governor doesn't have any place "forgiving" anyone. That is exactly why I referred to him as Lord Governor; it presumes ownership of a polity that isn't justified by democratic exercise.

The families are the only people who can "forgive". The state is an apparatus, nothing more. And in exchange for taking the right of vengeance from the hands of the family of the victim, the state has promised an array of remedy including the ultimate one. And now, without a vote, without anything in the way of a mandate by running on a promise to do this thing, this ridiculous fellow has robbed victims of justice.

apple 11-25-2011 05:52 PM

Re: Profile in courage: Oregon governor John Kitzhaber
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eeeeeeeli (Post 232665)
I assume you're calling a desire not to execute a weakness. I would say the opposite, that the desire to execute is the real weakness, the ease of giving in to what is likely the perfectly natural impulse of retribution. Overcoming this desire and choosing forgiveness, I would call the real strength.

Can you tell me who gave this governor the right to "forgive" people for what they did to other people? Suppose I forgave someone for a misdeed against you, would that mean that I have "real strength"?

Wonderment 11-25-2011 08:28 PM

Re: Profile in courage: Oregon governor John Kitzhaber
 
Quote:

Can you tell me who gave this governor the right to "forgive" people for what they did to other people? Suppose I forgave someone for a misdeed against you, would that mean that I have "real strength"?
Wait! Apple, did you just write a whole post without mentioning how despicable Muslims are? How is that even possible?

apple 11-25-2011 08:36 PM

Re: Profile in courage: Oregon governor John Kitzhaber
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 232692)
Wait! Apple, did you just write a whole post without mentioning how despicable Muslims are? How is that even possible?

Hardly an achievement. I will be impressed when our dear Wonderment replies to a post of mine without saying something about Muslims.

Wonderment 11-25-2011 08:45 PM

Re: Profile in courage: Oregon governor John Kitzhaber
 
Quote:

Hardly an achievement. I will be impressed when our dear Wonderment replies to a post of mine without saying something about Muslims.
Fair enough. Why are you so disturbed to see executions stopped in the state of Oregon? In your first post, you offered the preposterous idea of indicting the governor. Assuming you can't actually believe there are legal grounds to do that, what are you really so upset about?

eeeeeeeli 11-26-2011 11:11 AM

Re: Profile in courage: Oregon governor John Kitzhaber
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 232686)
Can you tell me who gave this governor the right to "forgive" people for what they did to other people? Suppose I forgave someone for a misdeed against you, would that mean that I have "real strength"?

Aren't those two different things? One is legal, the other moral. And governors actually do have the right to pardon. However I was only talking about the moral question of punishment in general, specifically capital punishment. As for your last question, yes, I would say that to the degree that you were denying your desire for vengeance and allowing yourself the compassion to see the world through the criminal's eyes, and treat him with dignity, you would be expressing real strength.

I think there is a reason we see mob justice, torture, humiliation of criminals, etc. as the "low" road, and and a system of justice that removes retributive element of justice the "high" road. In part, the low representing what is easy, the high what is more difficult.

apple 11-26-2011 03:26 PM

Re: Profile in courage: Oregon governor John Kitzhaber
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 232694)
Fair enough. Why are you so disturbed to see executions stopped in the state of Oregon?

Because I strongly support the death penalty. I'm also upset at the way that this autocratic Louis XIV-wannabe is attempting to be the law, even though there are duly enacted Oregon laws providing for the death penalty. The authority of the governor was intended to prevent unjust executions, not to allow him to outlaw the death penalty without a vote of the legislature.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 232694)
In your first post, you offered the preposterous idea of indicting the governor. Assuming you can't actually believe there are legal grounds to do that, what are you really so upset about?

He's probably not violating the letter of the law (his legal counsels will have taken care of that), but he's violating the spirit of the law - just like liberals claimed Bush did with his signing statements.

apple 11-26-2011 03:32 PM

Re: Profile in courage: Oregon governor John Kitzhaber
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eeeeeeeli (Post 232710)
Aren't those two different things? One is legal, the other moral.

Didn't you collapse the distinction by saying that the governor, by exercising his legal right to pardon/whatever death row inmates, is being a person with "real strength", because of the moral act of forgiving people who committed heinous acts?

Quote:

Originally Posted by eeeeeeeli (Post 232710)
As for your last question, yes, I would say that to the degree that you were denying your desire for vengeance and allowing yourself the compassion to see the world through the criminal's eyes, and treat him with dignity, you would be expressing real strength.

And this is something about the liberal worldview that I'll never understand. What's the virtue of seeing the world through the eyes of Jerry Sandunsky? How about trying to see the world through the eyes of his many victims, which is how I do it, and why I wish for his head to be mounted on a stake.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eeeeeeeli (Post 232710)
I think there is a reason we see mob justice, torture, humiliation of criminals, etc. as the "low" road, and and a system of justice that removes retributive element of justice the "high" road. In part, the low representing what is easy, the high what is more difficult.

I do see mob justice, torture and humiliation as the "low" road, but it does not follow that removal of the retributive element is the "high" road. In fact, I think it's the only thing that makes justice just. If you advocate the removal of the retributive element, you would say that Jerry Sandunsky should not be punished if (for some reason) we know for sure that he is not going to molest anyone else.

That's the lowest road of all - advocating injustice as the "high" road.

Sulla the Dictator 11-26-2011 09:26 PM

Re: Profile in courage: Oregon governor John Kitzhaber
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eeeeeeeli (Post 232710)
Aren't those two different things? One is legal, the other moral. And governors actually do have the right to pardon.

Governors obviously have a "right" (Ability) to pardon, but that is a legal matter. You said "forgiveness". A governor has no right to "forgive" a murderer, merely grant clemency. Blanket pardons are obviously not the intent of the pardon system. That isn't how the law was intended to be used.

Quote:

However I was only talking about the moral question of punishment in general, specifically capital punishment. As for your last question, yes, I would say that to the degree that you were denying your desire for vengeance and allowing yourself the compassion to see the world through the criminal's eyes, and treat him with dignity, you would be expressing real strength.
That is how a thrall conceives of the world. Government as a mewling, begging, sycophancy which only plays the "tough guy" when they're harassing normal people into acting like "proper" castratii.

Before this golden age of empty headedness, the difference between "justice" and "vengeance" was the rule of law; not the spirit of law. Law was supposed to replace vendetta because law is designed to remove inefficiencies such as killing the wrong person. It wasn't meant to be a shield for the criminal against the consequence of his murder. It is meant to shield innocent people against mistaken revenge.

You may consider your supine, wet eyed posture before criminality to be "strength", but it looks to me like nothing more than a psychological malfunction, or a fetish. Like some teenager ritually cutting herself in the bathroom, or pulling out her hair. This type of thing is one of the broad swaths of issues where the Left is engaging in self-mutilation for the sake of "feelings".

Quote:

I think there is a reason we see mob justice, torture, humiliation of criminals, etc. as the "low" road, and and a system of justice that removes retributive element of justice the "high" road.
The reason you see that is that you think that a criminal is merely reacting to some fundamental flaw in us. That he wasn't hugged enough, or given enough expensive trinkets. Your materialism prevents you from seeing the emptiness within these 'people'. If only they had enough baubles, they would be functioning bourgeois.

The reason "we" see "mob justice" as the "low" road is because it is inefficient and unfair. The reason we see the judicious execution of butchers and savages as the HIGH road is because they were afforded trial, appeal, and the rule of law. I don't see your concept of nurturing psychotics as any road at all. I see it as the stagnant miasma that is the harvest of nihilism.

Wonderment 11-26-2011 09:49 PM

Re: Profile in courage: Oregon governor John Kitzhaber
 
Quote:

He's probably not violating the letter of the law (his legal counsels will have taken care of that), but he's violating the spirit of the law - just like liberals claimed Bush did with his signing statements.
I'm glad to see you walking back your "indictment" post, but the signing statement analogy is weak.

Bush engaged in clear criminal conduct, and he used some of the signing statements as a means to claim immunity for his criminal conduct. (See "Detainee Treatment Act of 2005," for example).

The signing statement was separate from the underlying crime, but the crime was still committed by Bush (i.e. torture.).

badhatharry 11-27-2011 10:58 AM

Re: Profile in courage: Oregon governor John Kitzhaber
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 232723)

And this is something about the liberal worldview that I'll never understand. What's the virtue of seeing the world through the eyes of Jerry Sandunsky? How about trying to see the world through the eyes of his many victims, which is how I do it, and why I wish for his head to be mounted on a stake.

Hopefully you're in favor of some kind of trial, first. Innocent until proven guilty and all that.

apple 11-27-2011 02:47 PM

Re: Profile in courage: Oregon governor John Kitzhaber
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 232764)
Hopefully you're in favor of some kind of trial, first. Innocent until proven guilty and all that.

Duh. What use would it be to the victims to execute someone who did not commit the crime?

kezboard 11-27-2011 03:25 PM

Re: Profile in courage: Oregon governor John Kitzhaber
 
Quote:

I'm also upset at the way that this autocratic Louis XIV-wannabe is attempting to be the law, even though there are duly enacted Oregon laws providing for the death penalty.
Please.

From the statement issued by Kitzhaber:

Quote:

I could have commuted Mr. Haugen’s sentence – and indeed the sentences of all those on death row -- to life in prison without the possibility of parole. I did not do so because the policy of this state on capital punishment is not mine alone to decide. It is a matter for all Oregonians to decide. And it is my hope – indeed my intention – that my action today will bring about a long overdue reevaluation of our current policy and our system of capital punishment. Personally, I favor replacing the death penalty with life in prison without the possibility of parole and will argue for that policy in any future debate over capital punishment in Oregon. Others will point to opportunities to speed appeals or change the criteria for death penalty cases. In any event we can no longer ignore the contradictions and inequities of our current system. I am calling on the legislature to bring potential reforms before the 2013 legislative session and encourage all Oregonians to engage in the long overdue debate that this important issue deserves.

apple 11-27-2011 09:06 PM

Re: Profile in courage: Oregon governor John Kitzhaber
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kezboard (Post 232785)
Please.

From the statement issued by Kitzhaber:

I forgot to mention poseur. Did the framers of the death penalty statute intend for self-important governors to place a hold on executions while a "debate" is taking place? He's pretending to respect the law, while not doing it - fooling no one.

apple 11-27-2011 09:08 PM

Re: Profile in courage: Oregon governor John Kitzhaber
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 232742)
I'm glad to see you walking back your "indictment" post,

It was a wish on my part, not an expectation. I wish for there to be a way to hold this man legally accountable, though there probably isn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 232742)
Bush engaged in clear criminal conduct, and he used some of the signing statements as a means to claim immunity for his criminal conduct. (See "Detainee Treatment Act of 2005," for example).

Successfully, or so it appears, not least because Obama is doing worse things. I doubt that Bush would have had a drone take out an American citizen.

apple 11-27-2011 09:09 PM

Re: Profile in courage: Oregon governor John Kitzhaber
 
I see that this eloquent post is being ignored by people who can't answer it.

apple 11-27-2011 09:09 PM

Re: Profile in courage: Oregon governor John Kitzhaber
 
Even the murderer has contempt for the governor:

“I feel he’s a paper cowboy,” convicted murderer Gary Haugen, 49, told the Statesman Journal in a phone interview. “He couldn’t pull the trigger.”

(...)

“I think there’s got to be some constitutional violations,” he said, adding: “You don’t bring a guy to the table twice and then just stop it.”


http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headline...xecution-halt/

Weakness is not something that people respect.

Wonderment 11-27-2011 09:19 PM

Re: Profile in courage: Oregon governor John Kitzhaber
 
Quote:

Successfully, or so it appears, not least because Obama is doing worse things. I doubt that Bush would have had a drone take out an American citizen.
I agree partially. Bush got away with his crimes because Obama and the Dems. declined to prosecute them. Obama decided instead to "look forward." It's also true that Obama has continued the Bush doctrine and in some cases been as outrageous and brutal as his predecessor. However, "doing worse things" is a stretch. It's really hard to top the wildly idiotic and immoral Iraq War.

kezboard 11-28-2011 03:59 PM

Re: Profile in courage: Oregon governor John Kitzhaber
 
Quote:

Did the framers of the death penalty statute intend for self-important governors to place a hold on executions while a "debate" is taking place
Apparently, since again, what he's done is totally legal.

miceelf 11-28-2011 04:23 PM

Re: Profile in courage: Oregon governor John Kitzhaber
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator (Post 232685)
Except that it isn't overcoming any such desire. It is maudlin sentimentality. The governor doesn't have any place "forgiving" anyone. That is exactly why I referred to him as Lord Governor; it presumes ownership of a polity that isn't justified by democratic exercise.

What on earth are you talking about?

The governor's rationale has nothing to do with forgiveness and everything to do with his claims (which you may or may not disagree with) that the process by which the death penalty is applied is unjust.

And as the executive, commuting sentences is within his purview. He is exercising exactly the same executive privilege that Rick Perry and every other governor of a death penalty state has.

Sulla the Dictator 11-28-2011 08:53 PM

Re: Profile in courage: Oregon governor John Kitzhaber
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 232884)
What on earth are you talking about?

The governor's rationale has nothing to do with forgiveness and everything to do with his claims (which you may or may not disagree with) that the process by which the death penalty is applied is unjust.

Read what I was replying to:

Overcoming this desire and choosing forgiveness, I would call the real strength.

miceelf 11-29-2011 12:21 AM

Re: Profile in courage: Oregon governor John Kitzhaber
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator (Post 232891)
Read what I was replying to:

Overcoming this desire and choosing forgiveness, I would call the real strength.

I think it's useful to distinguish the governor from a couple of the people on this thread. Their motivations are not his.

Sulla the Dictator 11-29-2011 02:45 AM

Re: Profile in courage: Oregon governor John Kitzhaber
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 232903)
I think it's useful to distinguish the governor from a couple of the people on this thread. Their motivations are not his.

Oh I don't know about that. Places like this are where you find people on the left who express themselves sincerely. Politicians on the left have to be concerned with electoral equations.

However, I was addressing this attitude. You notice that I don't speak of "forgiveness" in my initial post on this thread, only in reply.

apple 11-29-2011 01:03 PM

Re: Profile in courage: Oregon governor John Kitzhaber
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kezboard (Post 232883)
Apparently, since again, what he's done is totally legal.

LOL. So you're saying that anything that is technically legal under a particular law is entirely according to the intentions of the people who wrote and enacted the law?


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