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Bloggingheads 10-12-2008 03:14 PM

UN Plaza: The Nuclear Menace

chucklefist 10-12-2008 06:19 PM

Re: UN Plaza: The Nuclear Menace
props to both participants here for a rich, well-articulated discussion of this subject. a nice balance between detail and accessibility for those of us who are relative neophytes to this issue. i would heartily welcome further opportunities for daryl kimball to elaborate on any of the main topics addressed here and even perhaps debate hardliners re iran and north korea. good pick, mark.

rgajria 10-12-2008 09:47 PM

Is it time to scrap the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty?
Yes it is. That is the proper way to go about it. Non Signatories cannot be forced to comply. A happy middle of arms reduction and non first use needs to be re-established.

rgajria 10-12-2008 09:49 PM

Re: Is it time to scrap the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty?
India may be the worlds largest democracy but it is a very imperfect one. No bill of rights, no rights to property are some of the things wrong with the constitution.

AemJeff 10-12-2008 09:57 PM

Re: Is it time to scrap the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty?

Originally Posted by rgajria (Post 93909)
Yes it is. That is the proper way to go about it. Non Signatories cannot be forced to comply. A happy middle of arms reduction and non first use needs to be re-established.

I think I'd rather see a face-saving deal of some sort crafted to lure some of the unsigned moderates into the club. A bright line with states like Iran on the minority side is the goal.

Eastwest 10-13-2008 12:00 AM

The Fundamentalist BJP Menace
Fine DV.

Participants were too polite to mention that the Fundamentalist BJP jockeying for power in India is only marginally less nutty than the admittedly crazy Muslim Fundamentalists wanting to grab the nukes in Pakistan. (Actually given Pakistani ISI and military are already fairly fundamentalist-friendly, one could say that mission's already virtually accomplished.)

This has all the marks of yet another Bush crony-capitalism venture cross-bred with a payback (G.E.?) for abundant donations from wealthy Indian businessmen and a simultaneously hostile and counterproductive geopolitical "containment" chessboard move aimed at China, Iran, etc., i.e. yet another wacky power trip out of Cheney's office.

Good one George Bush. You haven't screwed up the world enough already. Nice, too, to see how tough the Dems were at pushback on this one (quickly "rubber-stamp" and then "push-back" to George for his signature).

Thanks to both.


Wonderment 10-13-2008 06:47 AM

Great overview of where we're at and where we need to go
Thanks to Mark and Daryl!

JIM3CH 10-13-2008 06:22 PM

Re: UN Plaza: The Nuclear Menace
Daryl Kimballís description of the North Korea situation was not quite complete. The Clinton administration had agreed, rather stupidly, to provide North Korea with two light water reactors. This was already a non-starter. Never-the-less, Bush did little to help the situation. What little good has been done is probably to the credit of Secretary Rice.

Iran is entirely within their rights to continue with their enrichment program. Negotiation is the next step, but it must also include Israelís participation in good faith as well. Iran wonít give up itís legal rights to fuel cycle technology unless Israel does the same.

Why does Mark Goldberg keep implying that the NPT is in trouble? That is utter nonsense. Do two bad apples spoil the whole bunch? What about the other 143 member states who are living up to the terms of their safeguards agreements? The IAEA verifies worldwide compliance with safeguards agreements on an annual safeguards budget of about $130 million dollars per year, or about the cost of two fighter jets. Is that a bargain or not? Is Mark really ready to throw the whole thing away? NPT is alive and well, and largely because of NPT, so is the human race.

The India deal is a mess from the non-proliferation point of view. Chalk another one up for GW. The good news, which is not entirely irrelevant, is that it will help India to build nuclear plants rather than oil and coal. The bad news that it will help them to conserve their limited uranium resources for building more bombs. Unfortunately it will also discourage their domestic research into the Thorium fuel cycle, which could have yielded developments that could benefit the rest of the world's nuclear energy production in the years to come.

Anyway, it was an informative discussion. Thanks to both.

Mark Leon Goldberg 10-13-2008 08:38 PM

Re: UN Plaza: The Nuclear Menace

I didn't mean to imply the NPT was in trouble. Daryl and I fundamentally agree on pretty much everything he said, so I was just trying to play the devils advocate a bit. For the record, I don't think the NPT is in trouble. I think it's remarkable what it has been able to achieve. I may be mistaken, but I'm fairly certain that more countries have given up their nukes under the NPT than have proliferated. (New Zealand, South Africa, Brazil, Libya). One big problem with the NPT, though, is that one of the three legs--disarmament--is struggling.

Thanks for your comment. And Wonderment thanks for suggesting the topic.

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