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-   -   Commenter Klatch: Dunkirk, Part Two (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade) (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?t=7210)

chamblee54 12-06-2011 02:45 PM

Re: Commenter Klatch: Dunkirk, Part Two (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
It is to be hoped that Mr. Wright can improve the lighting on his performances. There is very little that can be done with those images.
chamblee54

osmium 12-06-2011 03:45 PM

Re: Commenter Klatch: Dunkirk, Part Two (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 233584)
You're very welcome, Bob.

Your welcome

osmium 12-06-2011 03:47 PM

Re: Commenter Klatch: Dunkirk, Part Two (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 233616)
Am I the only one who doesn't especially like vbulletin? I find the threaded and hybrid views disorienting, but the linear mode makes it unclear who is responding to what unless they quote.

I like it but only out of habit. The question with new fora is always whether or not I can get the osmium username on them, because otherwise it is simply, simply unacceptable.

osmium 12-06-2011 03:49 PM

Re: Commenter Klatch: Dunkirk, Part Two (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 233612)
The news about the possible demise of Science Saturday was so traumatic that I completely forgot about it when I wrote my previous comments.

Bob, you have to reconsider this. There are many, many of us who came here primarily for the Science diavlogs. It would be a major loss if you stop having them. It's already been painful enough when you skip a Saturday here and there.

I mean, the real danger is that we'll have to get a life and forget about BhTV altogether.

I'm half joking, but really disappointed that we would lose that weekly feature.

I'd kind of like to see Bob talk to science types himself. Have them explain it. Might be good.

miceelf 12-06-2011 03:55 PM

Re: Commenter Klatch: Dunkirk, Part Two (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
I am confused. Bob is looking around desperately for something to eat, while a dog barks in the background.

Am I the only one who could do the math here?

Ocean 12-06-2011 05:43 PM

Re: Commenter Klatch: Dunkirk, Part Two (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by osmium (Post 233685)
Your welcome

Huh?

No, you're welcome.

Are you trying to confuse this poor Spanish lady?

Ocean 12-06-2011 05:49 PM

Re: Commenter Klatch: Dunkirk, Part Two (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by osmium (Post 233686)
I like it but only out of habit. The question with new fora is always whether or not I can get the osmium username on them, because otherwise it is simply, simply unacceptable.

We should all be able to keep our handles or else leave and never return. I can't cope with such personality splits.

AemJeff 12-06-2011 06:00 PM

Re: Commenter Klatch: Dunkirk, Part Two (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 233704)
Huh?

No, you're welcome.

Are you trying to confuse this poor Spanish lady?

Whose welcome?

Ocean 12-06-2011 06:07 PM

Re: Commenter Klatch: Dunkirk, Part Two (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 233708)
Whose welcome?

Oh, no, oh, no, oh, no!!!!!

(She says while running desperately pulling her hair and getting lost into oblivion...)

;)

osmium 12-06-2011 07:26 PM

Re: Commenter Klatch: Dunkirk, Part Two (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 233704)
Huh?

No, you're welcome.

Are you trying to confuse this poor Spanish lady?

:) Just a touch of trolling. Don't pay any attention to me, Ocean. :)

(I do that so much that sometimes I legit mess up 'you're welcome.')

Ocean 12-06-2011 07:34 PM

Re: Commenter Klatch: Dunkirk, Part Two (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by osmium (Post 233737)
:) Just a touch of trolling. Don't pay any attention to me, Ocean. :)

(I do that so much that sometimes I legit mess up 'you're welcome.')

It did give me the opportunity to explore and express my histrionic self. So, thanks.

;)

sapeye 12-06-2011 08:30 PM

Re: Commenter Klatch: Dunkirk, Part Two (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Fine irony. While Bob is congratulating himself for 500 episodes with no serious tech snafus, his voice and mouth go out of synch. Yahooo, Murphy rides again.

rcocean 12-06-2011 10:23 PM

Good job Aryeh!
 
Thanks Dude for all your great work. Although calling me a 'sexist' still keep me awake at night.

Dunkirk of course was followed by years of sacrifice and the British were only saved by their enemies stupidity and the help of a benefactor some 3,000 miles across the Atlantic ocean.

Perhaps there's a 21st Century equivalent of FDR to help BHTV out.

Don Zeko 12-06-2011 10:30 PM

Re: Good job Aryeh!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rcocean (Post 233755)
Thanks Dude for all your great work. Although calling me a 'sexist' still keep me awake at night.

Dunkirk of course was followed by years of sacrifice and the British were only saved by their enemies stupidity and the help of a benefactor some 3,000 miles across the Atlantic ocean.

Perhaps there's a 21st Century equivalent of FDR to help BHTV out.

Or Stalin....

Wonderment 12-07-2011 12:01 AM

Re: Good job Aryeh!
 
Yes, thank you, Aryeh. You've been great. I especially appreciated your thoughtful comments at the end of this Diavlog.

Also, I have my Aryehs on my mantelpiece and will treasure them forever.

rcocean 12-07-2011 01:05 AM

Re: Good job Aryeh!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 233757)
Or Stalin....

Stalin helped Hitler for almost 2 years and only stopped helping him because Hitler attacked him. So, no I don't hope Bob finds a "Stalin".

But thanks for the off-the-wall remark.

You almost remind me of Aemjeff.

Parallax 12-07-2011 03:02 AM

Progress Report?
 
So we have a week to donate $4,000? Should not we know how much has been donated so far?

Alexandrite 12-07-2011 07:27 AM

Re: Commenter Klatch: Dunkirk, Part Two (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexandrite
2: I've said this before. I would pay money to see Ann Coulter on bloggingheads. Not a lot of money, but some.
I'd really like to see her bounce off of Connor Friedersdorf, Ross Douthat, David Frum, or even like Julian Sanchez? Bouncing her off a liberal isn't interesting. Bob maybe, if he could stomach it.

I just donated some money. Let's see if it gets there.

sugarkang 12-07-2011 04:23 PM

Re: Progress Report?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Parallax (Post 233775)
So we have a week to donate $4,000? Should not we know how much has been donated so far?

I gave $100. Tack on Alexandrite's contribution and that's how much we need to go.

Bob, don't eat a bug. Here's my PayPal note:

From commenter "sugarkang". I'd like a copy of The Evolution of God with a personal thank you on the inside cover saying something to the effect of being a better friend to BHTV than Mickey Kaus.

Unit 12-08-2011 08:45 PM

Re: Commenter Klatch: Dunkirk, Part Two (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexandrite (Post 233783)
I just donated some money. Let's see if it gets there.

Me too.

sugarkang 12-10-2011 12:31 AM

Re: Commenter Klatch: Dunkirk, Part Two (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Unit (Post 234041)
Me too.

I hope people are donating and just lazy about posting that they've done so.

Kevin 12-10-2011 03:09 PM

Re: Commenter Klatch: Dunkirk, Part Two (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Sorry to hear about this whole turn of events, especially any impact on the staff of five. I enjoyed meeting some of you last year in virtual or real form.

I agree that the Donate button seems buried. The editors seem to do things deliberately, so I wonder if they have a rationale for laying out the page the way they lay out the page. Actually, I suspect they do have a rationale. I wonder if they play it down because of something around messaging, what kind of message it would send to "important" foundation-affiliated visitors and that whole thing. Similar to all of their scrutiny and attention towards the first several comments.

I just saw this fundraising pitch go up on Real News. They're somewhat different, but then Bloggingheads is sui generis in the universe. Is it out of the question that something like this could save the day, save the staff, save the classic style diavlog?

Hey.. remember this? Who was responsible for that homage? Are they aware the site's in trouble? Are they rich?

stephanie 12-10-2011 03:25 PM

Re: Commenter Klatch: Dunkirk, Part Two (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 234183)
I hope people are donating and just lazy about posting that they've done so.

Why would people post that they've donated. It seems a weird thing to expect.

Unit 12-10-2011 08:54 PM

Re: Commenter Klatch: Dunkirk, Part Two (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanie (Post 234217)
Why would people post that they've donated. It seems a weird thing to expect.

To encourage others to do the same?

sugarkang 12-11-2011 07:44 AM

Re: Commenter Klatch: Dunkirk, Part Two (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Unit (Post 234250)
To encourage others to do the same?

It'd be nice if someone could post a running tally of how much we need to go. After all, Bob did provide us with a specific target. Countdown to bug ingestion.

Unit 12-11-2011 12:01 PM

Re: Commenter Klatch: Dunkirk, Part Two (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 234304)
Countdown to bug ingestion.

Yes, that's the real reason we're donating :-)

osmium 12-11-2011 01:31 PM

Re: Commenter Klatch: Dunkirk, Part Two (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Unit (Post 234316)
Yes, that's the real reason we're donating :-)

I donated and I want Bob to eat a low-key, pleasant meal with his friends and family, take that Bob.

stephanie 12-11-2011 11:33 PM

Re: Commenter Klatch: Dunkirk, Part Two (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Unit (Post 234250)
To encourage others to do the same?

Do you it think it does? To me it seems like impolite talk about money, like discussing about how much you make or saying how much you paid for stuff. Maybe this is a cultural thing.

But I don't think a list of donors in programs is problematic, of course -- I'm perceiving posting it here oneself to be different. Hmm, will consider.

Unit 12-12-2011 09:02 AM

Re: Commenter Klatch: Dunkirk, Part Two (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanie (Post 234403)
Do you it think it does? To me it seems like impolite talk about money, like discussing about how much you make or saying how much you paid for stuff. Maybe this is a cultural thing.

But I don't think a list of donors in programs is problematic, of course -- I'm perceiving posting it here oneself to be different. Hmm, will consider.

It encouraged me. When I first heard the diavlog I said to myself "yes of course I'll donate something". But then I forgot about it. So when I read the comments here I was reminded and I actually did it. It's not a question of money or showing off. The way I figure, I'm likely to spend quite a bit of money on books, so the question is "do I get as much entertainment out of BHTV as in reading a book?" The answer is a resounding yes.

stephanie 12-12-2011 10:46 AM

Re: Commenter Klatch: Dunkirk, Part Two (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Unit (Post 234425)
It encouraged me. When I first heard the diavlog I said to myself "yes of course I'll donate something". But then I forgot about it. So when I read the comments here I was reminded and I actually did it. It's not a question of money or showing off. The way I figure, I'm likely to spend quite a bit of money on books, so the question is "do I get as much entertainment out of BHTV as in reading a book?" The answer is a resounding yes.

I think that's a fair point. What strikes me as unseemly is the idea that everyone should post what they donated and that there's an assumption that people who don't, didn't. I'm certain that many people would never think to post what they donated or that they did, and the idea that there should be pressure to do so just seems rude to me, again, along the lines that people should post what they make or how much their house cost.

I admit this is probably a cultural thing, as I said before, and one on which there are some inconsistencies.

Unit 12-12-2011 04:41 PM

Re: Commenter Klatch: Dunkirk, Part Two (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanie (Post 234428)
I think that's a fair point. What strikes me as unseemly is the idea that everyone should post what they donated and that there's an assumption that people who don't, didn't. I'm certain that many people would never think to post what they donated or that they did, and the idea that there should be pressure to do so just seems rude to me, again, along the lines that people should post what they make or how much their house cost.

I admit this is probably a cultural thing, as I said before, and one on which there are some inconsistencies.

I don't see any inconsistencies. Encouragement, shaming, self-policing, etc... are very bottom-up practices that are the antithesis of govt force and coercion and the hallmark of free societies. In the Theory of Moral Sentiments Adam Smith showed how crucial it is for an individual's moral development to be guided by what he called "an impartial spectator" impersonating the average of society's opinions and judgments. By posting our actions we are essentially trying to publicize the impartial spectator point of view. Lin Ostrom, the recent Nobel in Economics, went further and showed how communities are able to overcome tragedy-of-the-commons situations like this one. It is quite easy for any of us in this mostly anonymous forum to free-ride on other people's initiative. It's a typical situation where one would expect sub-optimal results. Peer-pressure is a perfectly acceptable tool to try and counteract the natural incentive to free-ride.

stephanie 12-12-2011 06:37 PM

Re: Commenter Klatch: Dunkirk, Part Two (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Unit (Post 234450)
Peer-pressure is a perfectly acceptable tool to try and counteract the natural incentive to free-ride.

Yeah, I agree. Of course, for reasons stated above, I don't think this is a good test of how much people will give going forward, but I think a discussion about how to encourage donations makes sense.

Nonetheless, the idea that we should all post amounts of money and say whether we are donating or not just feels rude to me and I don't think doing it in a thread is a good strategy -- I'm concerned about what people might perceive about the culture as a result. However, like I said, I think this is a reaction more than a real position.

I think my sticking point is (a) nice people don't talk about money; and (b) when you give, don't let your right hand know what your left is doing (i.e., don't give and then brag about it). But like I said, my instinctive reaction against it may be inconsistent with some other things, like the fact I am in favor of encouraging donations, I have no problem with programs that list donations (and don't ask that my donations remain private), and I think tools like "this is how much more we have to do to reach the goal" in fund drives and so on make sense.

Eh, maybe I'm overreacting because sugarkang's weird assumption that anyone who donated would post "I donated X" (when that's obviously not true) reminded me of his suggestion that anyone who didn't post "firebombing journalists is bad" must be in favor of firebombing journalists.

Anyway, my perhaps reaction to that aside, I think the funny ideas about named categories for different levels and a list of donors or the like (Mickey's Circle and all that) is a good and enjoyable idea that doesn't feel so unseemly. But, hell, what do I know, these are nothing more than social norms to which reasonable people can have different reactions.

miceelf 12-12-2011 06:43 PM

Re: Commenter Klatch: Dunkirk, Part Two (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanie (Post 234456)
Yeah, I agree. Nonetheless, the idea that we should all post amounts of money and say whether we are donating or not just feels rude to me. Like I said, I think this is a reaction more than a real position.

I think my sticking point is (a) nice people don't talk about money; and (b) when you give, don't let your right hand know what your left is doing (i.e., don't give and then brag about it).

Yeah, that's my reaction as well. Not position necessarily, and no comment on people who are saying what they are doing. But I am not going to be posting how much I donate. At church, I don't announce how much is going into the offering plate.

sugarkang 12-12-2011 07:11 PM

Re: Commenter Klatch: Dunkirk, Part Two (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 234458)
Yeah, that's my reaction as well. Not position necessarily, and no comment on people who are saying what they are doing. But I am not going to be posting how much I donate. At church, I don't announce how much is going into the offering plate.

Is this the only time you've donated on a message board? I've donated lots of times before on many different sites. Usually, people post how much money they give so they know how close to the goal they're at. Of course, with sites like Kickstarter, that kind of disclosure has been rendered unnecessary on an individual basis.

Bob should've used Kickstarter, but my guess is that he didn't expect to hit the $4,000 mark, or whatever it was, anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unit (Post 234316)
Yes, that's the real reason we're donating :-)

I'd much rather have a book and personal note than watch Bob suffer. Isn't the one week up already? Or did he give us longer than that?

miceelf 12-12-2011 08:19 PM

Re: Commenter Klatch: Dunkirk, Part Two (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 234467)
Is this the only time you've donated on a message board? I've donated lots of times before on many different sites.

Not the only time. But I just don't kiss and tell. It's likely a Canadian thing.

popcorn_karate 12-13-2011 07:36 PM

Re: Commenter Klatch: Dunkirk, Part Two (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanie (Post 234217)
Why would people post that they've donated. It seems a weird thing to expect.

i'm posting that i just donated $10,000 dollars because i think it makes me look both good and rich. plus, i'd like to tell people that i disagree with to just keep their fingers off their keyboards until they pony up like i did, otherwise they are worthless free-riders and their opinions are therefore of no account anyway.

but hey, thats just me, i can't speak for anybody else.

Aryeh 12-15-2011 04:48 PM

Will Bob be eating a bug?
 
I just wanted to update you all on the Bloggingheads donation drive.

We really appreciate everyone who gave money to the site. It means a lot that you were willing to support us financially. Thank you.

But, unfortunately(?), the donations did not reach $4,000, so Bob will not be forced to eat an insect. (And if you're kicking yourself for not donating and thus depriving the world of seeing Bob go through with it, don't worry, because it wasn't very close.)

--Aryeh

stephanie 12-15-2011 05:49 PM

Re: Will Bob be eating a bug?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aryeh (Post 234738)
I just wanted to update you all on the Bloggingheads donation drive.

We really appreciate everyone who gave money to the site. It means a lot that you were willing to support us financially. Thank you.

But, unfortunately(?), the donations did not reach $4,000, so Bob will not be forced to eat an insect. (And if you're kicking yourself for not donating and thus depriving the world of seeing Bob go through with it, don't worry, because it wasn't very close.)

--Aryeh

Bugs aside, that's a shame, but I really do think more could be done to encourage donations. This was supposedly a "test," but it was announced in a podcast that probably only a relatively small number of people watch, which isn't visible in many of the places more casual viewers might come across it (not on iTunes, for example) and which specifically appeals to a very limited audience. The Donate button is hard to see -- it's not visible in the forum or when one is simply watching the diavlogs. And the donation "test" was announced at a time when current donations are not tax deductible, but donations will be in a month or so.

Assuming that it would be helpful to encourage people to donate going forward, I think there are minor steps that could be taken to make it more likely, and I hope TPTB are thinking about including them as a basically painless way to get even a little more money, as I definitely think this is a worthwhile venture that many people would love to contribute to.

I was over at Juan Cole's blog recently and he's doing a fundraising drive with a really visible plea for funds, a target and report of where the donations stand, and a gift for those who give at least $100. Basically the public TV/radio model. Something like that or -- even better -- encouraging subscriptions along with all the usual kinds of things that everyone from podcasts to symphonies do to encourage giving would seem possible and easy.


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