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Bloggingheads 07-21-2011 03:55 PM

Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 

bkjazfan 07-21-2011 04:11 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
Herman Cain is obviously getting a pass for the statements he made about muslims. Could it be due to his being an African American? Perhaps. Nevertheless, he's done as a serious candidate for the presidency due to his moronic opinions.

Wonderment 07-21-2011 04:24 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
It's not due to his being an African-American. It's due to the carefully cultivated climate of Islamophobia on the Republican right. Mainstream Republicans like Romney and even President Bush have not indulged the bigoted base, but it's to be expected that the 8slamophobes will be represented by 2 or 3 primary candidates who need that demographic to advance. Ditto for all Republican fringe causes: creationism, global warming denialism, homophobia and deport-the-Mexicansism.

DenvilleSteve 07-21-2011 07:26 PM

start with some facts - is heightend airport security because of muslims?
 
If there were very few muslims living the the US, our public spaces would not require the extreme security measures that exist nowadays. Airport security must cost 10s of billions per year in the US. If that is true, and, objectively I think it is, then it is to be expected that people would not be happy with muslims in the US.

DenvilleSteve 07-21-2011 07:35 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 217816)
...
but it's to be expected that the 8slamophobes will be represented by 2 or 3 primary candidates who need that demographic to advance. Ditto for all Republican fringe causes: creationism, global warming denialism, homophobia and deport-the-Mexicansism.

States rights! Immigration should be contolled at the state level. The world is overpopulated to the extreme, and the number of people is continuing to increase. Between now and some future date when all the natural resources are consumed, the global ecosystem will be destroyed. Then when the shortages kick in there will be terrible violence as people fight over the resources that remain.

Simon Willard 07-21-2011 08:18 PM

Looking for an argument
 
This was a fine discussion with no disagreement between the participants. Normally, I want more of a split between the participants; however, this one works because the topic centers on Muslim perceptions, and the many of us who are non-Muslim can supply our own perceptions or biases to set up the contrast that makes a diavlog compelling.

Watching with my skeptical attitude, I found very little to disagree with. The arguments here are mostly eloquent, logical and thoughtful. There were only two issues that came to my attention as needing to be challenged.

The issue of airport security came up as a source of antipathy toward the Muslim community. Yet, in the section on what to do about antipathy, the topic was not mentioned. I come away thinking that these two did not properly explain their views on the issue. Is there a specific complaint here? Would they change airport security procedures? Do they simply want the public's sympathy and understanding when Muslims get a second look?

The second issue has to do with pledging to support the US Constitution, which strikes me as de rigueur for presidential candidates. If it's a question placed to a Muslim who might (let's assume) be suspect in the minds of conservative Americans, it's the kind of soft-ball question a good politician hits out of the park. Kennedy got this question in a televised news conference, and it was tremendously beneficial to his campaign. So I'm not sympathetic to Farhana's connecting this to "dark chapters" in American history.

cacimbo 07-21-2011 08:50 PM

Uptick in antipathy toward Muslims
 
The Fort Hood shooting should really be included in possible reasons for changing attitudes toward Muslims. This shooting and the way it was handled did more to alter American perceptions of Muslims than the election or actions of President Obama.

T.G.G.P 07-21-2011 08:55 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
If I said I wouldn't have any scientologists in my cabinet, would anyone give a damn? Of course, the whole thing is silly since I don't think prior presidents had Muslims (or scientologists, for that matter) in their cabinets. Go back to pizza, Cain.

Americans like to tell ourselves that the initial settlers came for religious freedom, but actually the Puritans couldn't stand all the freedom in the Netherlands. They came to America to set up their own exclusive religious community. Rhode Island had religious freedom, and the Quakers embraced it as well, but they were rather atypical. The various sects weren't strong enough to lord it over one another and each feared possible persecution, so that's how they came to a truce with the first amendment (which only restricted the federal government rather than states).

The person whose Park 51 opposition I was most disgusted by was the late John Hospers. Maybe he expected to be persecuted under a Muslim polity and that resulted in personal animus, or maybe he just lost it in his later years.

I've got an interest in polycentric legal systems and making your own law through contracts, so a lot of these anti-sharia measures have been additionally annoying to me. I can sympathize with complaints about the supreme court using the law of other countries to interpret the U.S constitution, but the rabble-rabble-rabble folks are too incompetent to direct their ire at that rather than personal contracts. Shariah is a particularly interesting example of religious law, because unlike in Judaism no school of jurisprudence managed to repress all the others.

I think I've mentioned this before, but I could be considered anti-Muslim.

Aziz points out that by treating al Qaeda as representative, islamophobes legitimize their views. But I've heard that it is also moderate Muslims back down from challenging the more "authentic" fundamentalists. And when I was a believe I thought you obviously have to be a fundamentalist or nothing (of course I'm nothing now). Catholics underwent a kulturkampf before being Protestantized, Muslims in western countries inevitably will as well.

Farhana says it's been ten years of people being told by law enforcement and government officials to be suspicious of Muslims. I don't think she gives the government nearly enough credit. They've been fairly uniform with the islam-is-a-religion-of-peace message (leading to mockery from the public). I read about some law enforcement officials pushing an anti-Muslim message, but they got fired. And going beyond that to the media, I remember more movies featuring Muslim terrorists before 9/11 than afterward (Sum of All Fears was famously changed from Arab to neo-nazi terrorists). Populist anti-islam demagogues then use that to argue "The elites are lying to you, and they would never cut equivalent Christians the same slack". And I think she gives too much credit to the general public regarding being aware of the FBI monitoring mosques. The airport is again a place where the public is upset that their grandmas are being pulled out of lines because the authorities are too stupid/liberal to realize that brown dude in a turban over there is the real potential terrorist. Of course the Muslim organizations Farhan works with experience this scrutiny and it is highly salient to them, but the general public doesn't see that happening or ask Muslims what they are experiencing.

I can understand Aziz' argument that economic problems can make people angry and irrational, but I have never heard anybody try to attribute these problems to islam. Ire is directed at Wall Street and Washington. If it weren't, I'd have an even lower opinion of the general public! I'll grant his point about immigrants broadly speaking, mainly Hispanics who are closely associated with the housing boom and the states that experienced big crashes.

Aziz mentions the Scots-Irish connection to other countries, but ironically enough they are among the most likely to enter their ethnicity as simply "American" (possibly because they don't know where specifically their ancestors came from).

Beyond the boundary line which public discourse isn't supposed to cross is the sphere of deviance. I'm glad that on the internet we can discuss without repercussions, this helps to mitigate the problem of "preference falsification" at the core of Timur Kuran's book "Private Truths, Public Lies".

Aziz says the parties have gotten past "racist preferences or biased preferences". I'm sorry, but affirmative action may be completely justified and yet there is no way you can say it doesn't constitute biased preferences. And citing Kuran's book, the parties have been very reluctant to reject that and many prominent officials explicitly support it.

badhatharry 07-21-2011 09:13 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 217816)
It's not due to his being an African-American. It's due to the carefully cultivated climate of Islamophobia on the Republican right. Mainstream Republicans like Romney and even President Bush have not indulged the bigoted base, but it's to be expected that the 8slamophobes will be represented by 2 or 3 primary candidates who need that demographic to advance. Ditto for all Republican fringe causes: creationism, global warming denialism, homophobia and deport-the-Mexicansism.

geez! those republicans certainly are a complicated bunch.

apple 07-21-2011 09:31 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
This is a joke. Huq claims that Herman Cain's (correct and appropriate) comments about Islam would have been a disqualifier is made about any other ethnicity, like African-Americans. Of course, Islam is not an ethnicity, it's a despicable religion of hate and mass murder. So it should not be compared to other ethnicities, but to other ideologies of mass murder. Let's test the claim, if Cain had said that he wouldn't appoint any Nazi to his cabinet, would that have sparked outrage? I don't think so. That is because Naziphobia is much more prevalent than Islamophobia, even those who condemn Islamophobia are Naziphobes. Which is hypocritical, because all arguments against Islamophobia can be made against Naziphobia.

Hate crimes: there are actually many times more hate crimes against Jews, even though Jews are not flying airplanes into skyscrapers or massacring their colleagues in the military, or forcing women into bee keepers suits.

The pilgrims: anyone who knows anything of history knows that they did not come to America to have religious freedom, but rather, to force their religion on everyone else. E.g. Annie Hutchison, Roger Williams, the Quaker controversy in Massachusetts.

Terrorism is the symptom, Islam is the disease. Even if you stamp out all terrorists, it will not last for long, because Islam has a remarkable ability to generate barbarity and terrorism. It's what happens when the founder of a religion is a mass-murdering barbarian.

apple 07-21-2011 09:32 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve (Post 217830)
States rights!

That's your solution for everything. Even Jefferson Davis would oppose your states rights extremism.

apple 07-21-2011 09:38 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by T.G.G.P (Post 217835)
If I said I wouldn't have any scientologists in my cabinet, would anyone give a damn? Of course, the whole thing is silly since I don't think prior presidents had Muslims (or scientologists, for that matter) in their cabinets. Go back to pizza, Cain.

And why does this mean that Cain should "go back to pizza"? Blame the people who stir up controversy when a respectable, responsible individual like Herman Cain makes proper and correct comments about Islam. Don't blame Cain for being right,

Quote:

Originally Posted by T.G.G.P (Post 217835)
Shariah is a particularly interesting example of religious law, because unlike in Judaism no school of jurisprudence managed to repress all the others.

Correct, there are great disagreements between the schools of Islam. For example, one believes that homosexuals should be burned to death, while another believes that a wall should be collapsed on their head. Still another believes that they should be buried alive. See, Islam is not a monolith! That is just what Islamophobes say to justify their irrational bias against burying people alive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by T.G.G.P (Post 217835)
Aziz points out that by treating al Qaeda as representative, islamophobes legitimize their views.

No one treats Al Qaeda as representative. Islam has a prohibition against suicide, and the actions of Al Qaeda run afoul of that prohibition. On the other hand, Al Qaeda's violence is very consistent with Islam, which has been a bloody religion from the day go, and remains a bloody religion to this day.

apple 07-21-2011 09:55 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkjazfan (Post 217813)
Herman Cain is obviously getting a pass for the statements he made about muslims. Could it be due to his being an African American? Perhaps.

No, it's probably due to the fact that he's right. No one will fight for the religion responsible for 16,000 deadly terrorist attacks since 9/11. It is both morally reprehensible and politically disadvantageous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkjazfan (Post 217813)
Nevertheless, he's done as a serious candidate for the presidency due to his moronic opinions.

It must gall leftists that black Republicans take the lead in attacking Islam. Herman Cain and Col. Allen West are two examples of profiles in courage who have transcended the fear of being attacked by Islamic terrorists (like Theo van Gogh, Salman Rushdie, the Danish cartoonists, and basically anyone who tells the truth about Islam) and instead decide to inform people about the true nature of Islam.

It's hard to call a black man whose forebears were slaves a member of the KKK, just because he criticizes an ideology of hatred and violence.

T.G.G.P 07-21-2011 10:02 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 217844)
And why does this mean that Cain should "go back to pizza"?

He's clearly better at it than the job he's running for. He has repeatedly demonstrated that he doesn't know what the law is (although I give him credit for admitting his ignorance to Conor Friedersdorf, among others) and is ready to jettison a major portion of the first amendment.

Quote:

No one treats Al Qaeda as representative. Islam has a prohibition against suicide, and the actions of Al Qaeda run afoul of that prohibition. On the other hand, Al Qaeda's violence is very consistent with Islam, which has been a bloody religion from the day go, and remains a bloody religion to this day.
Islam also says muslims should never surrender, but when reality intervenes Muslim armies have done so repeatedly. You are giving too much credence to spoken beliefs about religion (which don't matter a whole lot) and not enough to its actual practice. See Theological incorrectness.

apple 07-21-2011 10:08 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
Aziz Huq: 99.99% of Muslims reject violence.

REALITY: Let's just look at the people of Egypt, and the percentages of Muslims who favor the following:

Stoning people for adultery: 82%
Cutting off of hands for stealing: 77%
Death penalty for apostasy: 84% (source: http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/musl...and-hezbollah/ )

There are 1.5 billion Muslims, supposedly. .01% of them is 150,000 people. But just the extremist population of Egypt is about 62 million (82 * .9 * .84), which is 413 times larger than what Huq claims that the entire extremist Muslim population of the world is. Isn't that swell?

Of course, there is nothing 'extreme' about these barbarities, this is just Islam, period.

apple 07-21-2011 10:13 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by T.G.G.P (Post 217846)
He's clearly better at it than the job he's running for. He has repeatedly demonstrated that he doesn't know what the law is (although I give him credit for admitting his ignorance to Conor Friedersdorf, among others) and is ready to jettison a major portion of the first amendment.

He has a different interpretation of the First Amendment that you do, that is clear. He does not think that violent religions of hatred have a right to impose themselves on free people, when these free people do not want to have a beacon of hatred and a terrorist recruiting ground in their midst. Obviously, you may disagree, but Herman Cain isn't jettisoning anything.


Quote:

Originally Posted by T.G.G.P (Post 217846)
Islam also says muslims should never surrender, but when reality intervenes Muslim armies have done so repeatedly. You are giving too much credence to spoken beliefs about religion (which don't matter a whole lot) and not enough to its actual practice. See Theological incorrectness.

It is correct that not all Muslims follow their religion. Thank God. That is why there are peaceful Muslims. But betting on the ability of Muslims to ignore their religion is ill-conceived. For as long as the societal poison called Islam is out their, it will continue to wreak havoc around the world, everywhere its adherents are found - from Dearborn to Denmark through Thailand and Japan.

Herman Cain opposes giving up freedoms to appease Islam, and apparently, that makes him a Ku Klux Klan member.

T.G.G.P 07-21-2011 10:23 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 217849)
He has a different interpretation of the First Amendment that you do, that is clear. He does not think that violent religions of hatred have a right to impose themselves on free people, when these free people do not want to have a beacon of hatred and a terrorist recruiting ground in their midst. Obviously, you may disagree, but Herman Cain isn't jettisoning anything.

Look at the text of the first amendment. Does it contain any exceptions for hateful religions? Of course not. Be serious.

Quote:

It is correct that not all Muslims follow their religion. Thank God. That is why there are peaceful Muslims. But betting on the ability of Muslims to ignore their religion is ill-conceived. For as long as the societal poison called Islam is out their, it will continue to wreak havoc around the world, everywhere its adherents are found - from Dearborn to Denmark through Thailand and Japan.
I haven't heard of any problems in Japan. My guess is that they actually improve Michigan. In fact, from what I've heard the crime rate among Muslim immigrants in America is significantly below the national average (figures for Muslims as a whole may differ due to prison converts). You can present info about the modal global Muslim, but there is a very strong filtering mechanism applying to Muslim immigrants to the U.S (Europe is a different story, they were stupid enough to locate their continent right above North Africa rather than Mexico). So present data on U.S muslims, because that's more relevant.

Quote:

Herman Cain opposes giving up freedoms to appease Islam, and apparently, that makes him a Ku Klux Klan member.
I didn't call him a klansman, I said he's prepared to jettison our freedom of religion.

chainlink 07-22-2011 04:10 AM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
I can understand why Muslims want to frame criticism of Islam as a civil rights violation. Blasphemy laws are common in Muslim countries, and these same countries--there are 56 of them in the Organization of the Islamic Conference--are trying to universalize such legislation through the United Nations. It must be a shock to come to a country where infidels can have their say, more or less. But why are non-Muslims consenting to approach disagreements with Islam on these terms? Why is it even an issue? Isn't it simply one of the meanings of liberal tolerance that one has to learn to live with criticism, among other things of one's religion?

Again, while it is clear why Muslim advocates would present it this way, why do we all have to pretend "anti-Muslim sentiment" is a serious problem? Is it just because of fear of terrorism--we don't want scary Muslims to think we don't like them? Scientology is criticized. There is much and constant criticism of all kinds of religious "cults." Much of seems well deserved: I grew up a Mormon, and early became aware that my religion was more often held in contempt than admired. Okay--over time I came much closer myself to the prevailing attitude. But why, in the case of Islam, is this seen as a civil rights issue, and not one of the need to develop thicker skins or better arguments or both?

And it's not as if all criticism of Islam is stupid--though, again, I can see why Muslim advocates assume this stance (Mormon apologists do precisely the same thing: all criticism is necessarily uninformed criticism). The most common ploy among Muslim apologists seems to be the claim, heard here and ad nauseam elsewhere, that Islam is extremely diverse--so any criticism can only backfire by displaying the criticizer's ignorance of its teeming variety. Islam itself (they imply) can't be touched, being a Platonically pure kind of entity, heavenward of any particular earthly embodiment.

But again, we non-Muslims, who do not have to assume Islam has any truth content beneath distasteful appearances, have no reason to play this game.

sugarkang 07-22-2011 05:24 AM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chainlink (Post 217862)
But again, we non-Muslims, who do not have to assume Islam has any truth content beneath distasteful appearances, have no reason to play this game.

Well said. Muslims get no more and no less protection than any other religion in this country. If people have an objection to stoning women, silencing speech, death for apostasy, well, those objections aren't created out of thin air. Muslims will have to endure the court of public opinion just like anyone else. If critics are overzealous, they will be prosecuted to the extent that they break the law.

Welcome to America. Living in a land of tolerance means you have to tolerate our bullshit just as much as we have to tolerate your bullshit.

miceelf 07-22-2011 07:21 AM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chainlink (Post 217862)
I can understand why Muslims want to frame criticism of Islam as a civil rights violation. Blasphemy laws are common in Muslim countries, and these same countries--there are 56 of them in the Organization of the Islamic Conference--are trying to universalize such legislation through the United Nations. It must be a shock to come to a country where infidels can have their say, more or less. But why are non-Muslims consenting to approach disagreements with Islam on these terms? Why is it even an issue? Isn't it simply one of the meanings of liberal tolerance that one has to learn to live with criticism, among other things of one's religion?

Are you seriously proposing that if Cain had said what he said about Jews instead of Muslims, people wouldn't be talking about anti-semitism?

stephanie 07-22-2011 07:37 AM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 217863)
Well said. Muslims get no more and no less protection than any other religion in this country.

Agreed. I'm mystified at how this is a response to the diavlog, however. Perhaps you would like to identify the special protection you think the diavloggers were claiming so we can talk about it?

Quote:

If people have an objection to stoning women, silencing speech, death for apostasy, well, those objections aren't created out of thin air.
Again, I hardly see how this is responsive to the diavlog. Given the context, it suggests that the diavloggers would defend those things, and it seemed pretty obvious to me that they would not.

As miceelf said, if someone said they wouldn't hire American Jews or, say, Catholics, because those people have questionable loyalty, I'd criticize them harshly. I see no reason to put American Muslims in a different category.

apple 07-22-2011 08:05 AM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by T.G.G.P (Post 217851)
Look at the text of the first amendment. Does it contain any exceptions for hateful religions? Of course not. Be serious.

Let's be serious. Does the Equal Protection Clause contain any exceptions for child molesters? No, but it would be unreasonable to interpret that clause to mandate that child molesters should get equal rights. Similarly, freedom of religion is not a freedom to construct a center for the recruitment of terrorists. Nor does it allow for preaching a religion that holds that anyone who wants to leave that religion should be murdered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by T.G.G.P (Post 217851)
I haven't heard of any problems in Japan.

Very understandable. There are very few Muslims in Japan. Yet even where it is a tiny minority, Islam manages to create problems: a translator for Rushdie's book was stabbed to death.

Quote:

Originally Posted by T.G.G.P (Post 217851)
My guess is that they actually improve Michigan. In fact, from what I've heard the crime rate among Muslim immigrants in America is significantly below the national average (figures for Muslims as a whole may differ due to prison converts).

It is very understandable that someone in prison would convert to Islam, as Islam justifies crimes against infidels. Also, I'd wager that someone in prison for raping a 9-year-old girl would appreciate a religion where someone like him is 'prophet' and admired by 1.5 billion people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by T.G.G.P (Post 217851)
So present data on U.S muslims, because that's more relevant.

What about all the terrorist attacks? What about Fort Hood? Leftists insist on comparing Muslims to Catholics and Jews, but when is the last time a Jew or Catholic killed his fellow soldiers out of religious motivations?

Quote:

Originally Posted by T.G.G.P (Post 217851)
I didn't call him a klansman, I said he's prepared to jettison our freedom of religion.

You didn't call him a Klansman, but many people call anyone who criticizes this despicable religion a racist, a fascist and a Nazi. It's sad that Islam (the leading cause of terrorism and barbarity in the world) is the one ideology one isn't permitted to criticize.

apple 07-22-2011 08:08 AM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 217868)
Are you seriously proposing that if Cain had said what he said about Jews instead of Muslims, people wouldn't be talking about anti-semitism?

What if Cain had talked about Scientology, instead of Islam? What about Nazism? What about NAMBLA? Is it racism to criticize Scientology, Nazism, or NAMBLA, or is Islam the only ideology that is exempt from criticism?

apple 07-22-2011 08:10 AM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanie (Post 217870)
Agreed. I'm mystified at how this is a response to the diavlog, however. Perhaps you would like to identify the special protection you think the diavloggers were claiming so we can talk about it?

How about calling (well-grounded) criticism of their religion 'Islamophobia', in order to stigmatize it (while ironically claiming that they are being stigmatized)? You can criticize Southern Baptists, Catholics, anyone, but not Muslims, because that is "Islamophobia".

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanie (Post 217870)
As miceelf said, if someone said they wouldn't hire American Jews or, say, Catholics, because those people have questionable loyalty, I'd criticize them harshly. I see no reason to put American Muslims in a different category.

What would you say if someone said they wouldn't hire Nazis, or Scientologists, or members of NAMBLA?

harkin 07-22-2011 08:34 AM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 217847)
Aziz Huq: 99.99% of Muslims reject violence.

REALITY: Let's just look at the people of Egypt, and the percentages of Muslims who favor the following:

Stoning people for adultery: 82%
Cutting off of hands for stealing: 77%
Death penalty for apostasy: 84%..............

How dare you use facts.

Not to mention that some people in Europe who quote these facts are forced to stay indoors a lot, travel with bodyguards etc because of all the death threats from members of the 'religion of peace'.

Starwatcher162536 07-22-2011 08:42 AM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 217874)
How about calling (well-grounded) criticism of their religion 'Islamophobia', in order to stigmatize it (while ironically claiming that they are being stigmatized)? You can criticize Southern Baptists, Catholics, anyone, but not Muslims, because that is "Islamophobia".

Unlike some, I find Islam as it is commonly practiced through most of the world as contemptible. Here's the thing though; You can't judge a group here by the actions of another group that shares scripture that exists outside our borders. Especially when these two groups span the developed/non-developed world. This is the same as how I do not judge southern baptists by the actions of Christians in Uganda.

..and if criticisms of domestic Islam were as tepid as criticisms of Christians I doubt many would have a problem. Though there should be more restraint when criticizing a minority. When a majority is criticized by a minority the majority encounters criticism only rarely and can shrug it off. When a minority is criticized by a majority the minority gets it from all sides and this leads to a siege mentality.


Quote:

What would you say if someone said they wouldn't hire Nazis, or Scientologists, or members of NAMBLA?
Nazis as a group can be condemned by the actions of Nazis in America. I have no idea who NAMBLA is. I wouldn't care if they hired a Scientolist. Scientology scripture doesn't seem any more implausible and wacky then any of the other of the world's major religons, just newer.

sugarkang 07-22-2011 09:19 AM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanie (Post 217870)
Again, I hardly see how this is responsive to the diavlog. Given the context, it suggests that the diavloggers would defend those things, and it seemed pretty obvious to me that they would not.

The diavloggers are fine. Nobody's afraid of the diavloggers. But how many videos have we had about anti-Muslim sentiment and Islamophobia? If guests want to come and talk about it, that's fine. But for fuck's sake, don't act like you have no idea where the fear comes from. The guests will say things like, "Yes, the fear is somewhat troubling." All liberals nod in agreement.

Well, I agree that fear is troubling. Given that there are millions of Muslims and only a handful of them are terrorists. Yes, I get that. There's also the inconvenient fact that Muslims are doing most of the suicide bombings.

Apple goes way too far, but that's because he hates religion in general. His views would deny citizens the right to religion. But let's separate wheat from chaff here. It's not like he doesn't have a point. I'm all for talking about the problem of irrational Muslim fear. But let's also talk about how many Muslims hold beliefs that are antithetical to our ideals of a free society.

Quote:

As miceelf said, if someone said they wouldn't hire American Jews or, say, Catholics, because those people have questionable loyalty, I'd criticize them harshly. I see no reason to put American Muslims in a different category.
If it's the private sphere, you should be able to do whatever you want.

apple 07-22-2011 09:56 AM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 (Post 217876)
Nazis as a group can be condemned by the actions of Nazis in America.

Why? What have Nazis in America done? Sure, some Nazis have senselessly murdered members of minority groups. But are we going to judge all Nazis by the actions of a violent, extremist minority? What about the peaceful Nazis who just have a shrine to Hitler in their home and read Mein Kampf before going to bed, drawing inspiration and hope from this book? 99.99% of Nazis are hard-working, decent people - supposedly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 (Post 217876)
I have no idea who NAMBLA is.

It's the North American Man-Boy Love Association. Would people be outraged if Herman Cain had said that he would not appoint anyone from NAMBLA to his cabinet?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 (Post 217876)
I wouldn't care if they hired a Scientolist.

I didn't really ask whether you'd have a problem with someone hiring a Scientologist, I wondered what the reaction would be if Herman Cain had said that he would not hire any Scientologist to be in his cabinet. Would that have outraged all the leftists of this world?

apple 07-22-2011 10:00 AM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 217878)
Apple goes way too far, but that's because he hates religion in general.

That is actually not true, I only hate unenlightened religion. I hate Islam most of all, because it's the religion where extremism is mainstream, and because it's the most unenlightened religion out there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 217878)
His views would deny citizens the right to religion.

Untrue, but I do oppose special rights/protection for religions. I agree with Scalia in Employment Division v. Smith: "We have never held that an individual's religious beliefs excuse him from compliance with an otherwise valid law prohibiting conduct that the State is free to regulate."

sugarkang 07-22-2011 10:25 AM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
PEW Research: Muslim Americans 2007

Rate your community:
72% excellent/good
27% fair/poor

Have you ever been victim of discrimination as a Muslim in the U.S.?
25% Yes
73% No

U.S. Muslims - suicide bombing can be justified:
8% often / sometimes
83% rarely / never
9% don't know / refused

Young Muslims - suicide bombing justified?
15% justified
80% not justified
5% don't know / refused

U.S. Muslims - view of al Qaeda
58% very unfavorable
10% somewhat unfavorable
5% favorable
27% don't know / refused

Young Muslims - view of al Qaeda
74% unfavorable
7% favorable
19% don't know / refused

Homosexuality should be
27% accepted
61% discouraged

Government and morality
59% should do more
29% worry it's too involved

How about we start putting some of these questions on the immigration application?

sugarkang 07-22-2011 10:27 AM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 217881)
That is actually not true, I only hate unenlightened religion. I hate Islam most of all, because it's the religion where extremism is mainstream, and because it's the most unenlightened religion out there.

Yeah, there's no law that separates religion between enlightened and unenlightened. You go and feel free to form your PAC, though.

miceelf 07-22-2011 10:31 AM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 217878)
If it's the private sphere, you should be able to do whatever you want.

Well, sure (from one perspective), but as you acknowledged, the POTUS (or a potential POTUS) isn't in the private sphere.

As well, this criticism of critics of critics of Islam is also kind of an odd thing in its demanded double standard- one should be free to criticize Islam (and do so dishonestly, in the case of apple, NOT you). But others shouldn't have the freedom to criticize the critics of Islam?

As for me and my house- well, as I think you agreed, apples' generalizations are especially weird in the context of Muslims who live in America and as others have pointed out have been filtered in a variety of ways. whether it's fair to generalize from some Muslims in the middle east to muslims in the rest of the world, it's especially unfair to generalize to American Muslims.

apple 07-22-2011 10:33 AM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 217883)
Yeah, there's no law that separates religion between enlightened and unenlightened. You go and feel free to form your PAC, though.

Actually, there are many laws prohibiting the actions that unenlightened prescribe and allow. For example, stoning people is a crime, as is marrying children to sick old men.

miceelf 07-22-2011 10:34 AM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
The question about homosexuality would filter out a great deal of Christian immigrants as well.

apple 07-22-2011 10:39 AM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 217884)
As well, this criticism of critics of critics of Islam is also kind of an odd thing in its demanded double standard- one should be free to criticize Islam (and do so dishonestly, in the case of apple, NOT you).

Show me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 217884)
But others shouldn't have the freedom to criticize the critics of Islam?

Who said that? Critics of critics of Islam even have the right to make despicable accusations against critics of Islam, for example, calling us racists, fascists and Nazis. But again, the fact that you have this right, does not mean that I can't criticize or attack you (verbally) for it. I do not recall any Islam critic saying that apologists for Islam should not be allowed to criticize critics of Islam, but I do recall them saying that they are wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 217884)
As for me and my house- well, as I think you agreed, apples' generalizations

I do not generalize. For example, I do not say that Muslims are violent, as not every person who calls himself a Muslim is violent. Some are just nominal or cultural Muslims, and they are obviously not violent. I do say that Islam is a violent religion, and I have ample reason to say that.

Just like it's a fact that the teachings of Jesus are noble, but that does not make every single person who calls himself a Christian a noble person, as following Jesus is sometimes a rather difficult thing to do.

miceelf 07-22-2011 12:38 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 217887)
I do not generalize. For example, I do not say that Muslims are violent, as not every person who calls himself a Muslim is violent. Some are just nominal or cultural Muslims, and they are obviously not violent. I do say that Islam is a violent religion, and I have ample reason to say that.

Just like it's a fact that the teachings of Jesus are noble, but that does not make every single person who calls himself a Christian a noble person, as following Jesus is sometimes a rather difficult thing to do.

No true scotsman, all around. Got it.

apple 07-22-2011 01:24 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 217890)
No true scotsman, all around. Got it.

No, wrong. No true Scotsman only applies when someone tries to set arbitrary criteria that have absolutely nothing to do with being a Scotsman. Assessing whether someone actually follows or believes in the tenets of Islam is anything but arbitrary.

Otherwise, I could call myself a capitalist while being a follower of Leon Trotsky - and blame you for using this fallacy for calling me out on it.

uncle ebeneezer 07-22-2011 02:47 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
This was a great diavlog. Very informative and nice to hear some input from actual Muslims for a change.

The OK legislation is pretty disturbing (even though it sounds like courts are not going to allow it's implementation.) I don't believe that supernatural events and religious references have a place in our law, but I can only imagine the response if similar laws that aimed to excise Jewish or Christian terminology from legal contracts was proposed. Given the level of outrage at school prayer, creationism, "under god", commandments on courthouses or any perceived slight on Christianity, something tells me that victim status would be much more eagerly embraced by the religious right on behalf of themselves, than they are willing to acknowledge on behalf of American Muslims if the shoe was on the other foot.

opposable_crumbs 07-22-2011 03:32 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Anti-Muslim Bias Goes Mainstream (Farhana Khera & Aziz Huq)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 217868)
Are you seriously proposing that if Cain had said what he said about Jews instead of Muslims, people wouldn't be talking about anti-semitism?

The double standard is glaringly obvious. Especially when you consider that Obama got called a racist for comments his pastor made.

If a GOP candidate was smart, if not principled, he should go Shepard Smith when such Cain like sentiments are expressed. Seeing the hysteria over Muslims is both farcical and deeply depressing, and I can't see a change of course anytime soon.

JonIrenicus 07-22-2011 03:43 PM

Captain Obvious explains the primary source of anti muslim sentiment
 
Completely passed over in this diavlog, so it needs to be explained since they refuse to acknowledge the obvious.


Primary source of anti muslims bias = CRAZY MUSLIM EXTREMISTS, over and above the background crazy levels of other groups.

I mean jesus, even freaking Norway was attacked.

http://english.alarabiya.net/article...22/158855.html

Norway !!! That's like attacking a squirrel or a panda bear.


now there is not solid confirmation it was muslim terrorists that carried out that particular event, but who would be surprised if it was? My guess is only the lefties, this is their reaction to the obvious



http://www.ostrichheadinsand.com/ima...ad_in_sand.jpg


This bias is perfectly rational, it is rational because it is based on observation. This bias does not exist for buddhists, or zoroastrians, or whatever else.


Here is the REAL solution to erode the bias. Dry up these sorts of radical muslim violent attacks and expressions, and the bias will evaporate. If not in the current generation of people, then in its failure to propagate to future generations.

So far, that bias has been earned, not based of what people are, but what they do (oh no, internal sources of fault and blame for given outcome - Leftist = error/does not compute)


It's like buick, if buick wants people to stop thinking their cars are for people in their late 90s, early hundreds, then they need to stop making cars that look like this.

http://vlane.com/img/chrome/1514.jpg


and you know what happened? they DID!

the buick lacrosse from 2010 on

http://fastcache.gawkerassets.com/as...rosse-Live.jpg



Massive sales increase for that car from the younger well to do crowd because there was a real shift in appearance, perceptions changed. And who was the source of that change?

Was it societies fault that that hideous, grotesque car in the first pic did not gain the same traction as the latter pic?


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