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Bloggingheads 07-06-2009 03:52 AM

Special Sex and Palin Edition (Michelle Goldberg & Ann Althouse)
 

nikkibong 07-06-2009 03:54 AM

Re: Special Sex and Palin Edition (Michelle Goldberg & Ann Althouse)
 
Proof that there is a God: We get another Michelle Goldberg DV.

Proof that God has a mean sense of humor: Michelle Goldberg is paired with Ann Althouse.

mmacklem 07-06-2009 08:15 AM

Re: Special Sex and Palin Edition (Michelle Goldberg & Ann Althouse)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nikkibong (Post 119086)
Proof that there is a God: We get another Michelle Goldberg DV.

Proof that God has a mean sense of humor: Michelle Goldberg is paired with Ann Althouse.

I actually found Michelle Goldberg much more interesting in this one than in her last one, where her co-diavlogger mostly agreed with her. I found many of her arguments much more interesting when she had to push back against her interlocutor.

Edit: Wow. Apparently I spoke too soon. Ann Althouse's attempted debunking of all of MG's points against Sarah Palin was too much to believe. My goodness, how an obviously intelligent person can actually believe what she is saying in that discussion hurts my brain to contemplate.

osmium 07-06-2009 10:47 AM

Re: Special Sex and Palin Edition (Michelle Goldberg & Ann Althouse)
 
I don't like dissing my fellow runner, but Sarah Palin seems to be going full trainwreck.

Here, hold on, I have my finger on the pulse of America, let me tell you what it says... Ah: voters want someone stable. Now that we're through with Clinton and Bush, I think people would like someone a bit out of the 50s in the way that they don't have affairs and throw tantrums. Maybe this is Obama's appeal. It certainly will not be Palin's.

osmium 07-06-2009 10:59 AM

Off the grid
 
Disappearing as a governor might be worse than Anne thinks. I mean, I'm nobody, and if I vanished for several days it would be an enormously irresponsible thing to do. Everybody else: can you just disappear from your job like that? No, right?

messwithtexas 07-06-2009 11:24 AM

Re: Special Sex and Palin Edition (Michelle Goldberg & Ann Althouse)
 
I resent Althouse's estimation of the "ordinary American". So if you don't identify with Palin's message you're somehow abnormal? Hardly. I think "basic" or "simple" Americans is what she means. This sort of language, like Palin's discussion of "real America" during the campaign, is divisive because it subtly insinuates that those who don't agree with you are somehow less "American".

Politically (and logically), I think this sort of message is a dead end. It might make your supporters feel better about themselves, but I don't think it does much for winning new support. Independents tired of having their patriotism questioned during the Bush years and Obama used that against conservatives during the election.

mattcbrown 07-06-2009 11:27 AM

Re: Special Sex and Palin Edition (Michelle Goldberg & Ann Althouse)
 
Oh, Althouse. When she defends Sarah Palin—particularly her most recent "speech," if it can be called that—she really shows her inner contrarian. Bucking up against popular opinion has its place, but when you have to reach that far, you're just button-pushing. Some people might find that intellectually stimulating, I guess, but it strikes me as embarrassing.

messwithtexas 07-06-2009 11:35 AM

Re: Off the grid
 
I think that is going to be the big issue for Sanford. I think Ann is right in pointing out that in practicality most states would be fine without a governor over a long weekend, but that misses the larger point. The big issue for Sanford is that he cannot escape how professionally irresponsible it was to do that and his explanation (true love/adultery), while touching, is not enough to excuse his behavior. Voters know this sort of behavior is unacceptable for them, so I don't think they will accept it from their governor and certainly not their future president. Like Mitt Romney recently said about this "Everyone makes mistakes, but not everyone is a governor."

bjkeefe 07-06-2009 11:57 AM

Re: Special Sex and Palin Edition (Michelle Goldberg & Ann Althouse)
 
I am convinced that the only reason Bob keeps inviting Ann back on is because he can't get Rush Limbaugh.

It would take far more time than I care to spend detailing all of the inconsistencies in Ann's "thinking" on display in this diavlog, but I did have to laugh when after spending the first 95% of the diavlog insisting that the only possible reason that Palin quit was to run for president, she finished up by saying (paraphrased), "Who can tell why she quit? I don't want to say. We'll just have to wait and see."

I was also glad Michelle quickly dismissed Ann's pathetic accusation of "sexism" (no one could have predicted Ann would go there!) regarding the speculation that Palin quit because she actually does want to spend more time with her family. One point Michelle did not make which bears saying: at least as far as I've heard, the only people who have offered this as their best guess for Palin bailing out of her job have been her supporters. People who do not like Palin tend to favor as a best guess a looming scandal which Palin got wind of. Others near the top include some sort of personal/medical problem, her thin skin/boredom once the job stopped being all about her soaking up adulation, she's done all she needs to do to get what she really wants (a lucrative gig on Fox), and she really does think, dumb as it is, that this actually is the smartest way for her to run for president. So, unless Ann wants to call Palin's fans "sexist," she really was out to lunch on this one. Even measured against everything else she said.

And speaking of sexism, I found it rather fascinating that Ann repeatedly used the phrase "uploaded' regarding Palin's need to get up to speed on policy matters. Why didn't she just say, "Palin has to learn" or "Palin has to read" or "Palin has to spend some more time cracking the briefing books?" To say, three or four times at least, (slight paraphrase) that "someone needs to upload information into Palin" sounded like she views Palin as an inert and empty vessel, incapable of initiative or self-improvement. I can easily imagine someone else using this "uploaded" formulation and Ann flipping out about the phrasing.

Other moments of hilarity: Ann insists that Palin "won" the VP debate; Ann insists that Palin doesn't play to her fans' resentments; Ann uses Bill Always Wrong Kristol in an appeal to authority; Ann thinks the "I quit" speech wasn't crazy-sounding; Ann insists that Sarah Palin and Rush Limbaugh concentrate on a positive message; Ann thinks that because Barack Obama won a convincing victory with a short resume at the national office level, therefore Sarah Palin is just as plausible a candidate and just as qualified to be president; Ann can't understand why Palin provokes a visceral reaction in most everyone smart enough not to spend all of his or her time listening to rightwing talk radio; ... oh, what's the point.

Curse you, hathos.

ImprecisePsychic 07-06-2009 12:11 PM

Re: Special Sex and Palin Edition (Michelle Goldberg & Ann Althouse)
 
Ann,

Don't you find that the important thing is that Sarah is a CHRISTIAN?

Well, atleast she speaks Christian fluently.

Lyle 07-06-2009 12:14 PM

Goldberg's Analysis
 
Michelle Goldberg's analysis of Sarah Palin's speech is so insane.

bjkeefe 07-06-2009 12:25 PM

Re: Special Sex and Palin Edition (Michelle Goldberg & Ann Althouse)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 119110)
... Ann thinks the "I quit" speech wasn't crazy-sounding; ...

Amusing tidbit on this: the version of Palin's "I Quit" speech that is currently posted on the official Alaska state government site has been edited since it first went up. Almost all of the ALL CAPS words have been changed.

I wish I'd taken a screen shot, but I know I'm not the only one to have noticed the original version. Here, for example, is Paul Begala writing about it:

Quote:

The text, as posted on Gov. Palin's official website (here), uses 2,549 words and 18 exclamation points. Lincoln freed the slaves with 719 words and nary an exclamation; Mr. Jefferson declared our independence in 1,322 words and, again, no exclamation points. Nixon resigned the presidency in 1,796 words -- still no exclamation points. Gov. Palin capitalized words at random - whole words, like "TO," "HELP," and "AND," and the first letter of "Troops."

Gov. Palin's official announcement that she is resigning as chief executive of the great state of Alaska had all the depth and gravitas of a 13-year-old's review of the Jonas Brothers' album on Facebook. She even quoted her parents' refrigerator magnet. (Note to self: if one of my kids becomes governor, throw away the refrigerator magnet that says: "Murray's Oyster Bar: We Shuck Em, You Suck Em!") She put her son's name in quotations marks. Why? Who knows. She writes, "I promised efficiencies and effectiveness!?" Was she exclaiming or questioning? I get it: both!
Here is Jonathan Kay:

Quote:

None of this makes any sense. It's all gibberish. Despite the litany of ALL-CAPS emphasis points contained in the official transcript of Gov. Palin's speech, we still have no real idea why she is resigning.
Here is Marc Ambinder:

Quote:

Assuming there is no scandal shoe about to drop, to understand what Gov. Sarah Palin is doing, we ought to begin by taking her at her word. I readily admit that her statement today wasn't terribly clear, which is quite telling itself: she doesn't quite know why she is doing what she's doing, ALL CAPS notwithstanding.
And here is TPM's copy-and-paste of the original version.

All of the above were posted Friday 3 July.

Standing by for someone to explain how this was all done by conspiring through Journolist.

Markos 07-06-2009 12:29 PM

Re: Special Sex and Palin Edition (Michelle Goldberg & Ann Althouse)
 
I'm astonished that Ann sees anything but self-serving flakiness and other qualities that disqualify her for a political career, much less any notion that she should be allowed anywhere near the White House.
How much more foolish and incoherent would Palin have to be to lose Ann's confidence?

Besides which, isn't Ann troubled by the depth of hostility behind the Palin smile? And the wide-ranging directions in which that hostility is scattershot?
Would Ann really want this person in charge of foreign policy, the economy, etc.

bjkeefe 07-06-2009 12:29 PM

Re: Goldberg's Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyle (Post 119114)
Michelle Goldberg's analysis of Sarah Palin's speech is so insane.

Can you support this empty assertion?

Or are you just making a joke?

freedomforall 07-06-2009 12:29 PM

Re: Special Sex and Palin Edition (Michelle Goldberg & Ann Althouse)
 
Wow. Michelle Goldberg needs to calm down. Geez Sarah Palin is just person no need to go mad crazy!

freedomforall 07-06-2009 12:30 PM

Re: Special Sex and Palin Edition (Michelle Goldberg & Ann Althouse)
 
Michelle Goldberg calm down.

PaulL 07-06-2009 12:37 PM

Michelle Goldberg "I went to Wasilla "
 
Nice little slip of the tongue.
So Michelle was one of the Democratic muckrakers/opposition researchers sent to Alaska to dig up dirt on Sarah Palin.
But now we are to believe she is giving an unbiased opinion on Palin.

Lyle 07-06-2009 12:48 PM

Re: Goldberg's Analysis
 
It's a joke. A pick at Goldberg's hate.

Her analysis could be more measured in my opinion though. The diavlog was made probably before the FBI came out said they aren't investigating or planning to investigate Palin, so not Goldberg's fault, but her main point about "something coming down the turnpike" (as far as political/criminal investigations go... not personal maybe) is already shot.

Lyle 07-06-2009 12:54 PM

So true, so true
 
I agree... haha. Her emotional response to Sarah Palin's latest speech is interesting. I love her descriptive words like insane, preposterous, astonishing, undercapable, ridiculous, and crazy.

Not capable of running a middle school... haha.

Not necessarily exercised about her... heh.

Weimar... oh my!

Lyle 07-06-2009 01:02 PM

Good Diavlog... You Ladies Really Opened Up... Loved It
 
Very honest and open discussion. Good stuff.

JoeK 07-06-2009 01:08 PM

Re: Special Sex and Palin Edition (Michelle Goldberg & Ann Althouse)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Markos (Post 119116)
Would Ann really want this person in charge of foreign policy, the economy, etc.

There is a little doubt Palin would do a much better job on economy than the unfolding economic *catastrophe* Obama's presidency unleashed on the country. Obama may personally be smart, but Goldberg and her fellow liberals are deluded if they think cleverness and ability to demagogue with flare will make implementing socialist economics this time around any different from many failed attempts in the past. Socialism doesn’t work and no amount of intellectual sophistication in our leaders will get around this basic problem.
Not to mention what a delight would be on a personal level to have Sarah and her handsome Eskimo husband in the White House, instead of the current occupants.

stephanie 07-06-2009 01:12 PM

Re: Special Sex and Palin Edition (Michelle Goldberg & Ann Althouse)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by messwithtexas (Post 119106)
I resent Althouse's estimation of the "ordinary American". So if you don't identify with Palin's message you're somehow abnormal? Hardly. I think "basic" or "simple" Americans is what she means. This sort of language, like Palin's discussion of "real America" during the campaign, is divisive because it subtly insinuates that those who don't agree with you are somehow less "American".

Politically (and logically), I think this sort of message is a dead end. It might make your supporters feel better about themselves, but I don't think it does much for winning new support. Independents tired of having their patriotism questioned during the Bush years and Obama used that against conservatives during the election.

I agree. I actually think it's playing into the problems the Republicans are having with the professional class, a group that used to be much more split (due to economic issues) and now is trending into the Dems. I also think it explains a good bit of the strong reactions to Palin.

However, media and pundit-type figures seem especially prone to convince themselves that it's a strong argument and likely to succeed, I think because they either have a complex that they aren't part of the "real America" or, like Chris Matthews, have a shtick of being uniquely in touch with it vs. the media generally. (I think Ann's attraction to the argument is more based on her love for seeing herself as a contrarian, for whatever reason.)

stephanie 07-06-2009 01:14 PM

Re: Special Sex and Palin Edition (Michelle Goldberg & Ann Althouse)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mattcbrown (Post 119107)
Oh, Althouse. When she defends Sarah Palin—particularly her most recent "speech," if it can be called that—she really shows her inner contrarian. Bucking up against popular opinion has its place, but when you have to reach that far, you're just button-pushing. Some people might find that intellectually stimulating, I guess, but it strikes me as embarrassing.

I've only had the chance to listen to the very beginning of this one so far, but that's largely my read of Althouse. She knows Palin pushes buttons, knows she is an entertaining media figure, if all you care about it pure amusement, so it's entirely predictable that she'd become a Palin defender.

freedomforall 07-06-2009 01:16 PM

Re: So true, so true
 
Why can't liberals just disagree with Sarah Palin or even George Bush? They have to call them every name in the book. It is odd.

freedomforall 07-06-2009 01:19 PM

Re: Special Sex and Palin Edition (Michelle Goldberg & Ann Althouse)
 
Or maybe Michelle Goldberg is wildly overreacting to Palin so Ann tries to calm her down?

Lyle 07-06-2009 01:19 PM

Conservatives Name Call Too
 
Well, some conservatives name call too. There are plenty of examples on talk radio. Either group blow back on one another.

DenvilleSteve 07-06-2009 01:23 PM

Re: Michelle Goldberg "I went to Wasilla "
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulL (Post 119120)
Nice little slip of the tongue.
So Michelle was one of the Democratic muckrakers/opposition researchers sent to Alaska to dig up dirt on Sarah Palin.
But now we are to believe she is giving an unbiased opinion on Palin.

and she threw in a mention of asking about the living arrangements of the Palin children ... Well, Michelle is honest and willing to talk to the other side. My guess is she will become a lot more tolerant in time. Problem is there are millions more activist democrats from urban areas of the country with a very narrow scope to their lives. Government means a lot to them. I fear they, along with government workers and aid recipients are a permanent voting majority.

We have to break the primacy of the federal government in America. Allow states the option to opt out of the federal system.

I'm SO awesome! 07-06-2009 01:24 PM

Re: Special Sex and Palin Edition (Michelle Goldberg & Ann Althouse)
 
didn't she quit because of legal bills? not that i care. she is kinda hot, though, i'd definitely hook up with her if i weren't married.

freedomforall 07-06-2009 01:25 PM

Re: Conservatives Name Call Too
 
Your right conservatives name call. The difference is that we don't elect the name callers U.S. Senate (see Al Franken) :)

bjkeefe 07-06-2009 01:29 PM

Re: Goldberg's Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyle (Post 119123)
It's a joke. A pick at Goldberg's hate.

Okay.

Quote:

Her analysis could be more measured in my opinion though.
Not sure what makes you say that. I'll grant she got a little exasperated after sitting through an hour of Althousania, but then, what sane person wouldn't?

Quote:

The diavlog was made probably before the FBI came out said they aren't investigating or planning to investigate Palin, so not Goldberg's fault, but her main point about "something coming down the turnpike" (as far as political/criminal investigations go... not personal maybe) is already shot.
Disagree. That the FBI has made this statement does not eliminate the possibility that Palin got wind of something coming down the pike. It could have been a word to wise concerning many other possible investigations; e.g., the IRS, the Alaska state ethics board (or whatever they call their organization), an exposé about to be published by a journalist, revelations about to be made by a political opponent, etc.

I'm not saying any of this is at all in evidence; I am merely observing that the FBI's statement, whatever it was, does not eliminate the possibility that Palin resigned in light of a looming scandal of some sort.

pampl 07-06-2009 01:30 PM

Re: Special Sex and Palin Edition (Michelle Goldberg & Ann Althouse)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeK (Post 119127)
There is a little doubt Palin would do a much better job on economy than the unfolding economic *catastrophe* Obama's presidency unleashed on the country. Obama may personally be smart, but Goldberg and her fellow liberals are deluded if they think cleverness and ability to demagogue with flare will make implementing socialist economics this time around any different from many failed attempts in the past. Socialism doesn’t work and no amount of intellectual sophistication in our leaders will get around this basic problem.
Not to mention what a delight would be on a personal level to have Sarah and her handsome Eskimo husband in the White House, instead of the current occupants.

You must have missed the memo- accusing everything of being socialism has just made the term more popular. Americans have abandoned your Hoovernomics so you're going to have to be more creative with your labeling if you want to trick them to vote for it.

bjkeefe 07-06-2009 01:31 PM

Re: So true, so true
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by freedomforall (Post 119130)
Why can't liberals just disagree with Sarah Palin or even George Bush? They have to call them every name in the book. It is odd.

I would ask you the same thing about reaction by conservatives to Barack Obama, Hillary and Bill Clinton, Al Gore, Al Franken, Barney Frank, and Nancy Pelosi. Just to name a few.

pampl 07-06-2009 01:32 PM

Re: Conservatives Name Call Too
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by freedomforall (Post 119137)
Your right conservatives name call. The difference is that we don't elect the name callers U.S. Senate (see Al Franken) :)

The only way you could believe this is if you take the "no TRUE communism" stance and hold that no real conservatives have ever been elected.

bjkeefe 07-06-2009 01:33 PM

Re: Michelle Goldberg "I went to Wasilla "
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulL (Post 119120)
Nice little slip of the tongue.

Why, exactly, is it a "slip of the tongue" for a reporter to say she went to do some reporting?

Lyle 07-06-2009 01:35 PM

Re: Special Sex and Palin Edition (Michelle Goldberg & Ann Althouse)
 
I don't think Althouse thinks those who don't support Palin are abnormal. I think she's trying to defend Palin's assertion of the other America's values (the other being what is not Goldberg's America). Althouse went out of her way to describe Palin's message as positive and not resentful (Goldberg's word and perception). Goldberg, I think, is projecting how she views frontier and rural America on to how Palin views urban, liberal America. Both sides do to this to one another actually. Nobody likes getting projected on I guess.

Palin's basic national political message has been, imo: America isn't only urban and liberal, but rural and conservative too. She, and a lot of other conservatives today, are not much different from the populism of William Jennings Bryan. The same political tension between rural and urban America continues to this day. Sarah Palin is simply on the rural, populist side.

freedomforall 07-06-2009 01:37 PM

Re: So true, so true
 
Last time I checked conservatives aren't drawing pictures of Barack with blood all over him like libs did to George Bush and post them on the internet. Conservatives aren't saying on the House floor that Obama gets thrilled when a American soldier dies like libs did to Bush. Conservatives aren't spreading rumors that Nancy Pelosi's children aren't hers like libs are doing to Sarah Palin.

Lyle 07-06-2009 01:37 PM

Re: Goldberg's Analysis
 
It eliminates a Federal criminal investigation. Other stuff may be in the bushes (like I said), but she won't be getting charged with a Federal crime anytime soon.

pampl 07-06-2009 01:44 PM

Re: So true, so true
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by freedomforall (Post 119144)
Last time I checked conservatives aren't drawing pictures of Barack with blood all over him like libs did to George Bush and post them on the internet. Conservatives aren't saying on the House floor that Obama gets thrilled when a American soldier dies like libs did to Bush. Conservatives aren't spreading rumors that Nancy Pelosi's children aren't hers like libs are doing to Sarah Palin.

That's because "last time [you] checked" is never. Just because you turn a blind eye to Republicans making food stamps with pictures of Obama holding a watermelon and a fried chicken doesn't mean it didn't happen. Just because you stick your fingers in your ears whenever Republicans talk about Obama being an anti-American socialist doesn't make it not so. Living in la-la land doesn't change reality for people who actually pay attention

The idea that people you agree with are honourable knights of virtue and it's only people you disagree with who play dirty is the most infantile, ludicrous view of Washington there is.

PaulL 07-06-2009 01:47 PM

Re: Michelle Goldberg "I went to Wasilla "
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve (Post 119134)
and she threw in a mention of asking about the living arrangements of the Palin children ... Well, Michelle is honest and willing to talk to the other side. My guess is she will become a lot more tolerant in time.

The mask slipped at the 35:00 point when Michelle said "I hate Sarah Palin" and saying Palin could not do the job that Obama does as President.
Such as blaming Bush for why anything he does to simulate the economy does not work. Or taking the side of the dictators in Iran and Honduras.
This quote covers the brilliance of Obama and Biden.
Quote:

it has not escaped my attention that many of the things Palin is accused of, falsely, are actually true of Obama. This is a guy who, as a U.S. senator from Illinois, didn’t even know which Senate committees he was on or which states bordered his own. (And don’t even get me started on Joe “The Talking Donkey” Biden, who thinks FDR was president during the stock market crash and that people watched TV in those days.) I’m not saying Obama’s a moron, but he’s sure as hell no genius. People say Sarah Palin rambles; excuse me, but have you actually heard Obama speak extemporaneously? As for being a diva, surely we all remember the Possomus sign and the special embroidered pillow on the Obama campaign plane. The fact is, Obama is an intellectually mediocre narcissist with a thin resume who’s lost without a teleprompter and whose entire campaign had all the substance and gravity of a Pepsi commercial. Yet people say Sarah Palin is a fluffy bunny diva.

xjudson 07-06-2009 01:48 PM

Re: Special Sex and Palin Edition (Michelle Goldberg & Ann Althouse)
 
ALTHOUSE is an idiot. That she sees any redeeming qualities in Palin is astounding.


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