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Bloggingheads 02-09-2009 09:31 AM

McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 

TwinSwords 02-09-2009 09:37 AM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
Welcome back, gentlemen!

What a great way to start a week: With Glenn and John. I haven't watched this one, yet, but I have to say to both of our hosts: Thank you for stopping by and sharing your perspectives with us.

bkjazfan 02-09-2009 10:49 AM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
I haven't watched it yet but I will shortly. I would like to comment on the Obama's not sending thier daughters to public school. From what I gather when they were in Chicago they didn't attend them there either.

I don't think it's fair to single them out on this. Democratic politicians as a rule support public schools. However, many of them don't send their children to them. There is also a propensity amongst teachers of all stripes to send their kids to private schools. It's too easy to call them hypocrits and I will not do that. However, I wish they would say why they choose private over public.

On a personal basis my daughter went to public schools thru the 8th grade. My ex, a lifelong Catholic, sent her to a parochial school for her senior years. She blossomed at the Catholic high school.

My family as well as all of my direct relatives attended the Los Angleles Unified School District. Of course, they aren't what they used to be.

The problems in many of the public schools are enormous and I for one am clueless on what to do to solve them. I have a feeling most pols, dems and repubs, are clueless, too.

John

ogieogie 02-09-2009 11:03 AM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
John's new book looks interesting. I'd enjoy seeing him pair up with another linguist some time, maybe for a Science Saturday, just to chat about linguistics (esp. the history of English, since that's what he's been into.) (I, for one, usually find John's linguistic ideas more agreeable than his social/polical dabbling.)

ogieogie 02-09-2009 11:06 AM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
I wonder how much input the Secret Service had into the choice of schools for the Obama children. I'm not sure we can pass judgment on the choice without knowing all the factors that went into it.

Francoamerican 02-09-2009 12:04 PM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
I always find it amusing when economists like Loury rush to the defense of the super-rich when the subject of "compensation" arises. Forget for a moment the figure of $500,000 and whether or not the typical banker or executive could live in the style to which he is accustomed on such a paltry sum in Washington DC or Manhattan (in a country where the average salary is around $50,000). The fact remains that in the United States the discrepancy between what the richest 5% earn and own (property, stocks, etc.) and what the remaining 95% earn and own is the WIDEST in the western world.

I would sincerely like to believe that all these people, with their prestigious law and business school degrees, truly deserve their rewards and are among the lords of humankind, but having attended prestigious schools in the United States, I have my doubts.

ohcomeon 02-09-2009 12:05 PM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
Here's the deal. How much money you make is not only dertermined by how important or talented you are. It is also determined by how much money your employer can afford to pay you. When the organization that employs you is broke you might have to take a pay cut no matter how good you are at your job. You might even have to take a pay cut that changes your life style in very significant ways. (I mean if we are going to criticize the President of the US for not being willing to send his kids to public schools in d.c., surely we would expect executives at failed investment institutions to be willing to send their kids to second tier private schools in NYC.) And when a friendly investor comes in and helps a company survive, that investor may set the terms. And when that investor is the US government you now essentially work for the government. And everyone knows government jobs don't pay as well as the private sector.
Of course this problem only persists for as long as the US government is propping you up. Once you use your incredible talents and skills to make the company solvent and independent again there will be no upper limit on your salary.

One question I have is since all these people have been making millions and millions of dollars for most of their careers, why does 1-2 years of only making $500,000 cause them such pain? Certainly they have substaintial wealth since creating wealth is their job. There lifetime earnings aren't being capped, only how much they can make while their company is on welfare.

Wouldn't it be great to get a job where the promise was you will only make $500,000 a year for the next couple of years, but if you do your job well, in a few years you can make 20 million or more?

BTW - Many really good surgeons don't make $500,000 anymore. Take a look at their cost of doing business.

bkjazfan 02-09-2009 12:28 PM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
The stimulous package at 800 or 900 billion dollars may not be so bad when compared to what the Fed, Treasury, and FDIC have done in the last 2 years. They have lent or spent 3 trillion and plan another 5 if needed.

The tv show, "The Millionaire," I watched as a kid would be antiquated in 2008. It is such a small sum compared to today's money.

John

grits-n-gravy 02-09-2009 12:54 PM

There's no such thing as a black group?
 
Glenn is being a little disingenuous, I feel, when he states there is no such thing as a 'black group', which he goes on to explain in terms of collective action. Of course, all groups or communities are "imagined" (a la Benedict Anderson) beyond the face-to-face, day-to-day interactions. However I think it's "silly", "infantile", and "whimsical" to deny black communal identity at a local level. Moreover, the statement simply belies Glenn's own concern with the incarceration rates of black men.

If blacks don't comprise a group, then who does?

willmybasilgrow 02-09-2009 12:59 PM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
Yeah, I was appalled to hear Glenn lauding Brooks' article. What a disgusting article! Who cares about parties? Who gives the best parties will sort itself out somehow. It just so does not matter on the national scale or in conversations about governance.

What does Glenn teach anyway, and how in the world can he have such a seeming lack of ethics? Jesus Christ, $500,000 is a lot of money!

Is he trying to be macho or what?

willmybasilgrow 02-09-2009 01:00 PM

Re: There's no such thing as a black group?
 
That part of the conversation I thought he was using the no black group thing as a conversational device, and that it reflected less a true belief he held. I could be wrong...

willmybasilgrow 02-09-2009 01:02 PM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
When I heard him saying a good lawyer or surgeon in Topeka will make much more than $500K, I laughed out loud. He's out of touch!

willmybasilgrow 02-09-2009 01:04 PM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
And yet, most people are making far below that.

grits-n-gravy 02-09-2009 01:12 PM

Re: There's no such thing as a black group?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by willmybasilgrow (Post 103586)
That part of the conversation I thought he was using the no black group thing as a conversational device, and that it reflected less a true belief he held. I could be wrong...

As I see it, his statement reflects one of the occupational hazards of contrarian thinking.

David Thomson 02-09-2009 01:16 PM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
Barack Obama is a poorly educated and shallow human being. He is not even close to being ready to handle the most important job in the United States. Obama merely knows how to take full advantage of white guilt and minority sense of entitlement. Isn't this affirmative action nonsense gone a bit too far? We now have the most incompetent national leader since Jimmy Carter. It's going to be tough sledding for the next four years.

willmybasilgrow 02-09-2009 01:21 PM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
Granddaddy? They said you were dead!

bjkeefe 02-09-2009 01:21 PM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
Incisive post, as usual, ohcomeon. Two points that really resonated:

Quote:

(I mean if we are going to criticize the President of the US for not being willing to send his kids to public schools in d.c., surely we would expect executives at failed investment institutions to be willing to send their kids to second tier private schools in NYC.)
Quote:

One question I have is since all these people have been making millions and millions of dollars for most of their careers, why does 1-2 years of only making $500,000 cause them such pain? Certainly they have substaintial wealth since creating wealth is their job. There lifetime earnings aren't being capped, only how much they can make while their company is on welfare.

bjkeefe 02-09-2009 01:23 PM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ogieogie (Post 103580)
I wonder how much input the Secret Service had into the choice of schools for the Obama children. I'm not sure we can pass judgment on the choice without knowing all the factors that went into it.

That same thought has occurred to me, too, and also from the perspective of every other kid in the school. I have the feeling Sidwell Friends is much more used to, and better equipped to deal with, the security requirements of children of VIPs and minimizing the impact these requirements have on the rest of the students.

graz 02-09-2009 01:28 PM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by David Thomson (Post 103590)
Barack Obama is a poorly educated and shallow human being. He is not even close to being ready to handle the most important job in the United States. Obama merely knows how to take full advantage of white guilt and minority sense of entitlement. Isn't this affirmative action nonsense gone a bit too far? We now have the most incompetent national leader since Jimmy Carter. It's going to be tough sledding for the next four years.

You sir, need to visit the
"Sandbox." :http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?t=2586

miceelf 02-09-2009 01:39 PM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
I have to say, I continue to find Glenn excessively tiresome. He's really bitter. Which is fine- Hillary lost, he's entitled to his anger and pain. But it's also forcing him to make really specious arguments, and arguments he wouldn't normally make, in order to deny any positive statement about Obama or any understanding of why some folk are happy to see him become president.

African Americans aren't a people? Really? Does Glenn really believe this?

I thought he had pledged to leave the sour grapes behind or some such? Are we really going to have to watch him do these logical dances for 4 or eight years?

Uhurusasa 02-09-2009 01:44 PM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
well,with charity for all, and malice towards none, in an european/african context, is having a half-breed(creole) as the front-man for the anglo-american hegemony such a great thing(or a bad thing for that matter)!! i have lived long enough to have known people who would have killed you(literally), if you called them black, become blacker than black, after lyndon johnson made it profitable to be "BLACK".

the descendants of half-breeds are, just the bright side of a very dark situation, who want to play the U.S black/white game anyway that benefits them!

Obama is a distraction, and the shell-game goes on!!

willmybasilgrow 02-09-2009 01:46 PM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
It's always somethin, isn't it?

BeachFrontView 02-09-2009 01:50 PM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/176...9:25&out=09:39

grits-n-gravy 02-09-2009 01:58 PM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Uhurusasa (Post 103596)
well,with charity for all, and malice towards none, in an european/african context, is having a half-breed(creole) as the front-man for the anglo-american hegemony such a great thing(or a bad thing for that matter)!! i have lived long enough to have known people who would have killed you(literally), if you called them black, become blacker than black, after lyndon johnson made it profitable to be "BLACK".

the descendants half-breeds are, just the bright side of a very dark situation, who want to play the U.S black/white game anyway that benefits them!

Obama is a distraction, and the shell-game goes on!!


Notwithstanding my earlier objections, Glenn's posture is, ironically, the one most sympathetic to your point, which I tend to agree with, by and large.

Francoamerican 02-09-2009 02:07 PM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ohcomeon (Post 103582)
One question I have is since all these people have been making millions and millions of dollars for most of their careers, why does 1-2 years of only making $500,000 cause them such pain?

Have you ever heard of greed? Are you really so naive as to think that the rich will accept limits to their dreams of avarice?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohcomeon (Post 103582)
Certainly they have substaintial wealth since creating wealth is their job.There lifetime earnings aren't being capped, only how much they can make while their company is on welfare.

Wouldn't it be great to get a job where the promise was you will only make $500,000 a year for the next couple of years, but if you do your job well, in a few years you can make 20 million or more?.

Dear me, in what dark, dim little corner of the universe do you dwell? Do you know anything about economics? The "wealth creation" of the past ten years has been nothing but a shameless sham, a ponzi scheme built on leverage and the gullible fools who inhabit that blessed land of idiots, the United States of America.

Uhurusasa 02-09-2009 02:10 PM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by David Thomson (Post 103590)
Barack Obama is a poorly educated and shallow human being.

Damn!! i hope that he is at least as well educated and/or deep as you are!!!

pampl 02-09-2009 02:12 PM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
Doesn't 'creole' mean French-African-Native American ancestry? I think 'mulatto' meant half white and half black, although neither term (along with 'half-breed') are very well received nowadays.

I usually like Loury's contrariety but the blackness thing did get old. Some people are excited about him being the first black president. Others (not to name names) are fixated on his name being Barack HUSSEIN Obama. I'm happy we're done with the baby boomer presidents. It's just part of the US President's dual role: head of government, and grist for the celebrity gossip mill.

Uhurusasa 02-09-2009 02:28 PM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pampl (Post 103602)
Doesn't 'creole' mean French-African-Native American ancestry? I think 'mulatto' meant half white and half black, although neither term (along with 'half-breed') are very well received nowadays.

creole has many meanings! if you take my meaning, choose whatever word you like. i chose 'half-breed'(pejoratively) for the emotional impact, not to be pc.

what term conveying my meaning is very well received nowadays, and why??? this is closer to the heart of my issue about this racial stuff.

blackness(or whiteness) as a monolith, is a paralysis of the mind(and maybe of the nation)!

bkjazfan 02-09-2009 02:31 PM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by David Thomson (Post 103590)
Barack Obama is a poorly educated and shallow human being. He is not even close to being ready to handle the most important job in the United States. Obama merely knows how to take full advantage of white guilt and minority sense of entitlement. Isn't this affirmative action nonsense gone a bit too far? We now have the most incompetent national leader since Jimmy Carter. It's going to be tough sledding for the next four years.

David, it's been awhile. Well, at least you are not referring to Barack as Barry now.

John

grits-n-gravy 02-09-2009 03:17 PM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkjazfan (Post 103578)
I would like to comment on the Obama's not sending thier daughters to public school. From what I gather when they were in Chicago they didn't attend them there either.

I don't think it's fair to single them out on this. Democratic politicians as a rule support public schools. However, many of them don't send their children to them. There is also a propensity amongst teachers of all stripes to send their kids to private schools. It's too easy to call them hypocrits and I will not do that. However, I wish they would say why they choose private over public.

I also don't have any problem with the Obamas sending their kids to private school per se. But it does smack of just a little hypocrisy for the first lady to hail the virtues of a public school education while sending their own kids to a private school, and not just any old private school. The only point Glenn made was that if people, like John, want to imbue Obama's victory with so much racial significance and symbolism then they should take note of the message he and his wife are sending when they choose an exclusive private school for their children over a public school or even home schooling for that matter.

graz 02-09-2009 03:18 PM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 103595)
I have to say, I continue to find Glenn excessively tiresome. He's really bitter. Which is fine- Hillary lost, he's entitled to his anger and pain. But it's also forcing him to make really specious arguments, and arguments he wouldn't normally make, in order to deny any positive statement about Obama or any understanding of why some folk are happy to see him become president.

African Americans aren't a people? Really? Does Glenn really believe this?

I thought he had pledged to leave the sour grapes behind or some such? Are we really going to have to watch him do these logical dances for 4 or eight years?

I didn't take his points as bitterness or discredit to Obama. Glenn fairly makes the point that our President's pigmentation is nearly irrelevant to the tasks at hand for the CEO of the USA.
This point was best elaborated by the comparison of MLK's role as sacred and the job of a politician as profane. This in no way detracts from the acknowledged color of either man's skin.

DoctorMoney 02-09-2009 03:21 PM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
Glenn, John:

I don't care how metropolitan the area is, it's a little galling to hear you say that 500,000 a year isn't much. It's a lot in New York, it's a lot in Chicago, and it's a lot in LA.

Otherwise, great vlog. But the last 5 minutes were silly.

matthawk 02-09-2009 03:22 PM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
Can't contain my excitement -- I have to post this even before seeing the vlog. McWhorter and Loury are two of my favorites. They're the reason I started watching Bloggingheads in the first place. I'm downloading the vlog now so I can listen to it on my I-Pod in the park. I've been waiting a long time for their return. I am soooooo going to enjoy this!

graz 02-09-2009 03:31 PM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by grits-n-gravy (Post 103605)
I also don't have any problem with the Obamas sending their kids to private school per se. But it does smack of just a little hypocrisy for the first lady to hail the virtues of a public school education while sending their own kids to a private school, and not just any old private school. The only point Glenn made was that if people, like John, want to imbue Obama's victory with so much racial significance and symbolism then they should take note of the message he and his wife are sending when they choose an exclusive private school for their children over a public school or even home schooling for that matter.

As President, Obama can shape public school policy. As parents they have an obligation to the safety and well being of their children. Why would you assume that they didn't "take note" of the symbolism. In my estimation they are exercising a private realm choice, even if it's in public purview. The trade-off of loss of privacy shouldn't preclude a wise choice to avoid shitty D.C. schools.

graz 02-09-2009 03:40 PM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DoctorMoney (Post 103607)
Glenn, John:

I don't care how metropolitan the area is, it's a little galling to hear you say that 500,000 a year isn't much. It's a lot in New York, it's a lot in Chicago, and it's a lot in LA.

Otherwise, great vlog. But the last 5 minutes were silly.

On the money Doctor. What I have a hard time accepting is that the so called skill of a brain or heart surgeon, is on equal footing with a skilled legislator (Daschle).
As Francoamerican said: 500 grand isn't about cost cutting in major metro areas as much as greed and expectations (historical trends). Glenn's use of Yankee stadium and strikeouts, etc. as a logical foundation were whacked.

nikkibong 02-09-2009 03:54 PM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
I'm baffled as to why our erstwhile co-founder, Mickey Kaus, is constantly accused of acting in bad faith and not being a "true liberal" while Glenn Loury, who is far more vituperative towards Obama and his supporters is constantly lauded here. Black supporters of Obama are "infantile?" Really? That's just mean-spirited and wrong. It seems to be that it's Glenn that craves acting the part of the "contrarian," not Mickey.

Glenn has been remarkably inconsistent in his views of Obama: in one diavlog he pledges his full support, in the next he heaps unjustified abuse on him.

And really, what of import did Glenn give us in this diavlog? He repeatedly made the unbelievably banal point that "Obama is President" as if he had hit on something profound. Pathetic.

uncle ebeneezer 02-09-2009 03:55 PM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
Glenn, a couple baseball notes. Derek Jeter is actually one of the worst defensive short-stops in MLB (though a good hitter and leader.) Also, the Yankees losing games doesn't have quite the impact on the economy that banks/big auto companies failing does. In one case thousand of jobs are at stake. Your analogy is silly. As you know the federal bailouts are aimed at preventing the collapse of companies that would lead to a depression. It's just not a very good analogy.

And government restrictions on $ offered through social programs is pretty standard procedure. I can send you a copy of one of my unemployment checks if you need further evidence that $500K is in fact quite a bit of dough. Your reasoning for that statement about $500K is about as useful as pointing out that "to Bill Gates $50M isn't that much." $500K/year is more than 98.5% of the rest of us make.

Klee 02-09-2009 04:11 PM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
Why is that people who readily profess to not having bothered to listen to the particular segment they're responding to believe they should proceed to post whatever random opinion that just happens to spring to the top of their heads at the trigger of a headline? Nowhere in the diavlog was there any contention over whether the Obamas should be criticized for sending their children to private school. In fact Glenn preface his commentary by stating that is what he is not going to do. Shesh. Glenn is out of the loop about political symbolism, namely that it's never supposed to be a rational allocation of passions because politics is not run on a currency of rationality. If he is so worried that excess sentimentalism would blunt incisive critique, he could do his part for the remedy by not bringing it up again and again. How about turning the focus of his considerable analytical tenacles on some issue like the economy? I think, like pretty much everyone else did the day before and the day after the inauguration.

graz 02-09-2009 04:18 PM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nikkibong (Post 103611)
Glenn has been remarkably inconsistent in his views of Obama: in one diavlog he pledges his full support, in the next he heaps unjustified abuse on him.

He's a complicated man. And he was clearly in the conservative camp in his formative years. Maybe stripes are hard to change. Evidence of this is offered by James Q. Wilson.
Excerpt:
http://www.city-journal.org/2009/19_1_dna.html
h/t Sullivan

Wonderment 02-09-2009 04:24 PM

Re: McWhorter and Loury Strike Back
 
Cut Glenn some slack. He tends to think out loud in his talks with John, and he often says things he probably wouldn't want to carve in stone. That's a good thing. You get to hear these guys talk not only about their certainties and political stances, but also about the things they're wondering about and are unsure of.


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