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Bloggingheads 10-16-2011 11:23 PM

A Dark Day in Israel (Robert Wright & Assaf Sharon)
 
Credit for the photo that appears in this diavlog: Oren Ziv/Activestills.org

chiwhisoxx 10-17-2011 01:45 AM

Re: A Dark Day in Israel (Robert Wright & Assaf Sharon)
 
copying and pasting my comment from the last DV posted:

hey look, a middle east DV. I think it's the first one this month, right?

I'll stop soon, I promise. Just a little annoying right now!

graz 10-17-2011 01:48 AM

Re: A Dark Day in Israel (Robert Wright & Assaf Sharon)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx (Post 228456)
copying and pasting my comment from the last DV posted:

hey look, a middle east DV. I think it's the first one this month, right?

I'll stop soon, I promise. Just a little annoying right now!

Bears beat Vikings on gridiron ... At least!

Wonderment 10-17-2011 01:51 AM

Re: A Dark Day in Israel (Robert Wright & Assaf Sharon)
 
Thanks, Assaf, for the work of Sheikh Jarrah Solidarity and all the other grassroots human rights groups in Israel-Palestine who are opposed to the Occupation, and especially to those among you who support a nonviolent, secular, democratic one-vote/one-person resolution of the long conflict. You are the future; that's the hopeful takeaway for me.

A friend's daughter was among the victims of the Anatot attacks. She was "punched and dropped on the spikes on the road." I'm sure you know her. The mom's name is Ofra Lyth.

Here's a link to an article that addresses additional allegations of Settler sexual violence in this incident.

Quote:

Israeli journalist Haggai Matar quotes this victim:

“Outside [the vehicle], settlers are banging on the windows making a sign with their fingers drawn across their throats to show that they would slash my throat. They shriek: ‘Bring her outside [the vehicle]. We’ll deal with her. Give her what she has coming to her, the whore!’”

Tali Harkavy writes in Sheikh Jarrah Solidarity:

' Arabs fuck her in the ass.’ I want to get away. To run. I retreat quickly with my back to the path and my front to the attackers. Afraid to turn my back on them. One approaches too closely and rubs his crotch: ‘I’ll fuck you.’ He was serious.

Sarah Benninga writes in Sheikh Jarrah:

“When the wives of the male attackers saw their husbands hitting male and female protestors alike, they [the settler women] applauded and spat at me: ‘Traitor,’ ‘You deserve it.’ And when they heard their husbands threaten us: ‘We’ll fuck you in the ass,’ they suddenly turned into men themselves, applauding their husbands’ sexual conquests as if they were one of the boys.”

Tal Konig reports in HaOketz:

“Three went to the hospital. Among them, Yassine [the Palestinian farmer originally attacked] with an open head wound, his wife over whose head they broke a broom handle, after which they abused her sexually.”

Stavit Sinai tweeted:

“The settlers actually stripped me naked. I tried to calm myself. History will bury them and their evil apartheid in blood.”

chiwhisoxx 10-17-2011 02:51 AM

Re: A Dark Day in Israel (Robert Wright & Assaf Sharon)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TwinSwords (Post 228462)
If you don't like it, you don't have to watch.

I know, I know...but the only way we can, in our own small way, try and influence the sort of DV's we enjoy watching is by giving feedback and pointing out trends.

ohreally 10-17-2011 11:11 AM

Re: A Dark Day in Israel (Robert Wright & Assaf Sharon)
 
Kol HaKavod indeed. Let me add -- and Sharon no doubt will agree -- that there are many many courageous young Jewish Israelis willing to put their lives on the line for justice. Same with Palestinians. To meet these people has always been, for me, a joy as well as a humbling experience.

But I need to factor out my personal involvement with this conflict and comment on ChiWhi's frustration. He's on to something. With all their domestic problems, Americans have had it with this fixation on a minor region of the world whose only distinction is to blow shit up endlessly and whose only relevance is black gooey stuff. The future of America is with Europe and the BRICS -- not Israel or Yemen or Iraq or Afghanistan. The focus on these minor countries reflects the neo-imperial nature of our foreign policy (for these are the last sandboxes we can still hope to control). But the future lies elsewhere. Americans are passengers on the Titanic looking for their life jackets -- and the captain is busy lecturing them about the dangers of piracy...

stephanie 10-17-2011 12:33 PM

Re: A Dark Day in Israel (Robert Wright & Assaf Sharon)
 
Minor point, but Sharon acknowledges Bob's point about public sentiment in Israel resulting in the policies he dislikes through democratic means, despite the fact that it seems an insane policy if you consider the long run. However, he then expresses disappointment or surprise that the US has not done more to pressure Israel in another direction. But of course the same types of dynamics exist in the US. If Israel itself doesn't act to take a more pragmatic (in the long run) policy, due to public opinion, why is it hard to understand that political pressure/sentiment in the US is such that it's almost impossible for any administration to pressure Israel to take the hard choices that Israel seems not to want to. After all, the bad effects of Israel not doing so are a lot more apparent in Israel than in the US and the public sentiment and political implications in the US is well known. Absolutely nothing about the election of Obama changed this, except that there's an insane fringe that is convinced that Obama is anti-Israel no matter what he does, so he almost has to be more careful not to do anything that will be portrayed that way.

Winspur 10-17-2011 02:29 PM

Re: A Dark Day in Israel (Robert Wright & Assaf Sharon)
 
20 minutes in, and I find it funny / pathetic that the settlers who moved to Anatot for "quality of life" reasons seem to spend their entire lives in a state of fear (of Palestinians and liberal Jews). I suppose this was true of many frontier communities in 18th - 19th century America.

stephanie 10-17-2011 02:41 PM

Re: A Dark Day in Israel (Robert Wright & Assaf Sharon)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Winspur (Post 228509)
I suppose this was true of many frontier communities in 18th - 19th century America.

I'm sure -- I actually couldn't help but think of this comparison during the diavlog, as well as how they managed to drive events despite the lack of sympathy by those supposedly in charge (first Parliament and then the people in settled areas who kept saying "no more moving beyond the border and provoking fights" but then felt completed to defend the settlers when the inevitable happened and generally ended up going way beyond that).

Clearly it's not a perfect comparison, but there are some links.

JonIrenicus 10-17-2011 03:01 PM

Re: A Dark Day in Israel (Robert Wright & Assaf Sharon)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx (Post 228456)
copying and pasting my comment from the last DV posted:

hey look, a middle east DV. I think it's the first one this month, right?

I'll stop soon, I promise. Just a little annoying right now!


There have been a lot, though I would have thought by now that Bob might have found someone from the Israeli right to come on, or even a settler. Are Israeli settlers willing to come on bloggingheads like trying to find a unicorn? Seems like members from the Israeli left are like libertarians around here, it got to the point on one of recent diavlogs where Bob, BOB! was taking on the role of the Israeli consensus when he was talking about some of the rationales and genuine fear.. but Bob can't effectively advocate for that perspective as he rejects it.

Winspur 10-17-2011 03:22 PM

Re: A Dark Day in Israel (Robert Wright & Assaf Sharon)
 
Quote:

Are Israeli settlers willing to come on bloggingheads like trying to find a unicorn?
There's probably a language issue here. As I understand it many settlers come from former Soviet Union lands and aren't comfortable speaking English.

Winspur 10-17-2011 03:30 PM

Re: A Dark Day in Israel (Robert Wright & Assaf Sharon)
 
Yes. The major problem with the comparison is that indigenous tribes in North America never forged durable common bonds against white settlers (some tried to, like Tecumseh, but that's another story). Palestinian national identity is most certainly durable, and anyone in the Israeli government who thinks he can run roughshod over it is deluding himself.

Although Netanyahu probably figures he's going to die before there is a big backlash, so he'll just milk Israeli nationalism for all it's worth. That's my cynical interpretation.

kezboard 10-17-2011 03:30 PM

Re: A Dark Day in Israel (Robert Wright & Assaf Sharon)
 
Yeah, let's get someone from Hamas, too, while we're at it!

opposable_crumbs 10-17-2011 03:31 PM

Re: A Dark Day in Israel (Robert Wright & Assaf Sharon)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Winspur (Post 228530)
There's probably a language issue here. As I understand it many settlers come from former Soviet Union lands and aren't comfortable speaking English.

Many are from the US and other English speaking countries, and speak English as good Netanyahu himself. Louis Theroux, from the BBC, had a interesting documentary on the settlers:

http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvi..._Zionists_1_4/

TwinSwords 10-17-2011 03:34 PM

Re: A Dark Day in Israel (Robert Wright & Assaf Sharon)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kezboard (Post 228533)
Yeah, let's get someone from Hamas, too, while we're at it!

LOL!

BornAgainDemocrat 10-17-2011 03:36 PM

Re: A Dark Day in Israel (Robert Wright & Assaf Sharon)
 
This is the most outrageous behavior by Israeli settlers and law enforcement personnel I've seen documented, maybe in my lifetime, and I am one who follows these things. My reaction?

If the government of Israel doesn't take forceful, unambiguous action to halt this kind of behavior right away, and to severely punish the guilty parties, this is the sort of thing that can, and will, undermine American popular support for the state of Israel -- at least to the extent that it becomes public knowledge.

And of course in this age of YouTube and the Internet it will become known.

Americans support Israel for religious reasons (sentimental reasons some would say) and because they "share our values" as Marty Peretz likes to say. But I got news for Marty and Israel's political leaders: Americans don't support ethnocentric violence and oppression of the strong over the weak no matter who's involved, no how, in no shape. Enforcing military blockades and using force to stop unprovoked rocket attacks from Gaza is one thing, but this is something else.

American friends of Israel (and I am certainly one with the paper trail to prove it), Jewish Americans especially, need to take note.

apple 10-17-2011 04:43 PM

Re: A Dark Day in Israel (Robert Wright & Assaf Sharon)
 
Wonderment, do you agree with me that such people (the rapists) should be shot on sight?

Wonderment 10-17-2011 06:02 PM

Re: A Dark Day in Israel (Robert Wright & Assaf Sharon)
 
Quote:

Wonderment, do you agree with me that such people (the rapists) should be shot on sight?
No.

bkjazfan 10-17-2011 08:56 PM

Re: A Dark Day in Israel (Robert Wright & Assaf Sharon)
 
It took the death of Al Davis to get the Raiders going again. They won yesterday. Not the team of old but not as bad as recent years. Hopefully, they don't move to L.A. again to placate the gang bangers. I still can't feature a team located in downtown. Think of it, the nation's second largest city without a professional football team. Unbelieveable!

opposable_crumbs 10-17-2011 08:57 PM

Re: A Dark Day in Israel (Robert Wright & Assaf Sharon)
 
It's not that uncommon but usually directed at Palestinians rather than other Israelis, and the IDF are well versed in knowing their place when it comes to the settlers - to protect and serve.

The settlers are only doing what the Israeli state does, using force to acquire land, even if it means ignoring Israel's own laws, let alone international law. Once these facts on the ground are established, they can be retroactively legalised, as Netanyahu recently did with all illegal settlements built on public land. Private Palestinian land is not safe either, as Netanyahu is mulling over whether to legalise these too.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...959268175.html

An alternative method for settlers to get access to private land, is to make it impossible for Arabs to use for a number of years, so that it gets classified as abandoned and is up for grabs.

eeeeeeeli 10-18-2011 09:49 AM

Re: A Dark Day in Israel (Robert Wright & Assaf Sharon)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BornAgainDemocrat (Post 228536)
This is the most outrageous behavior by Israeli settlers and law enforcement personnel I've seen documented, maybe in my lifetime, and I am one who follows these things. My reaction?

If the government of Israel doesn't take forceful, unambiguous action to halt this kind of behavior right away, and to severely punish the guilty parties, this is the sort of thing that can, and will, undermine American popular support for the state of Israel -- at least to the extent that it becomes public knowledge.

And of course in this age of YouTube and the Internet it will become known.

Americans support Israel for religious reasons (sentimental reasons some would say) and because they "share our values" as Marty Peretz likes to say. But I got news for Marty and Israel's political leaders: Americans don't support ethnocentric violence and oppression of the strong over the weak no matter who's involved, no how, in no shape. Enforcing military blockades and using force to stop unprovoked rocket attacks from Gaza is one thing, but this is something else.

American friends of Israel (and I am certainly one with the paper trail to prove it), Jewish Americans especially, need to take note.

I really loathe the whole "friends of Israel" schtick. It's only purpose is to bully, much like those who accuse critiques of American policy as the "blame-America first" crowd". Because, obviously, there is a large percentage of Israelis who are opposed to what their country is supporting, either explicitly or implicitly.

I'm reminded of civil rights protests in the American 60's. Would those supporting freedom rides not be considered "friends of America"? In fact, civil rights protests have come to be seen as the very height of pro-American sentiment. I can think of nothing more pro-Israel than an immediate settlement freeze and an end to the occupation. I may be strategically naive, but that's a different argument entirely.

stephanie 10-18-2011 10:34 AM

Re: A Dark Day in Israel (Robert Wright & Assaf Sharon)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eeeeeeeli (Post 228647)
I really loathe the whole "friends of Israel" schtick. It's only purpose is to bully, much like those who accuse critiques of American policy as the "blame-America first" crowd". Because, obviously, there is a large percentage of Israelis who are opposed to what their country is supporting, either explicitly or implicitly.

Agree, and with the related point about the US. I also hate the whole "take note, Jewish Americans," as if they all shared some one-note view about Israel (unquestioning support of the Netanyahu I guess is the suggestion).

TwinSwords 10-18-2011 11:54 AM

Re: A Dark Day in Israel (Robert Wright & Assaf Sharon)
 
Andrew Sullivan highlights Bob's interview with Assaf, and the "state-enabled terrorism" described in this diavlog.

Quote:

State-Enabled Terrorism

The ghastly attacks on mosques on the West Bank and most recently in Israel proper as well are horrifying enough. But that they are sometimes conducted with the tacit acquiescence of the Israeli police and military makes them something more disturbing. The attack on Palestinians and Israeli peace activists by settlers in Anatot recently was particularly unnerving. We've run the video before, but it's worth refreshing your memory:

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/2816/sully1.png

One of the terrorists has been identified as a local police investigator. A complaint has been filed. Here is Bob Wright's interview with one of the peace activists attacked that night:

http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/672/sully2.png

Here he explains how hard it is to get any police response to fundamentalist violence out of control. And the violent settler "price-tag" movement is gaining strength in Israel proper now as well.

Many thanks to Assaf for bringing this story to an American audience ... and, as always, to Bob.

Florian 10-18-2011 12:26 PM

Re: A Dark Day in Israel (Robert Wright & Assaf Sharon)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ohreally (Post 228498)
But I need to factor out my personal involvement with this conflict and comment on ChiWhi's frustration. He's on to something. With all their domestic problems, Americans have had it with this fixation on a minor region of the world whose only distinction is to blow shit up endlessly and whose only relevance is black gooey stuff. The future of America is with Europe and the BRICS -- not Israel or Yemen or Iraq or Afghanistan. The focus on these minor countries reflects the neo-imperial nature of our foreign policy (for these are the last sandboxes we can still hope to control). But the future lies elsewhere.Americans are passengers on the Titanic looking for their life jackets -- and the captain is busy lecturing them about the dangers of piracy.

Well put. As much I appreciate bhtv's in-depth coverage of the Middle East, the American obsession with this region of the world since 9/11 is disproportionate to the importance of the countries involved. It reminds me, in its cluelessness and obsessiveness, of the "Great Game" that pitted Britain against Russia in Afghanistan during the second half of the 19th century.

I hope Israel eventually comes to its senses, but as long as the US gives its unconditional support to Israelis like Netanyahu, there is little chance of that happening.

TwinSwords 10-18-2011 12:32 PM

Re: A Dark Day in Israel (Robert Wright & Assaf Sharon)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Florian (Post 228670)
I hope Israel eventually comes to its senses, but as long as the US gives its unconditional support to Israelis like Netanyahu, there is little change of that happening.

True.

The US will continue to give unconditional support to Israel as long as there are no political consequences to US leaders for doing so.

I appreciate Bob and all his emphasis on the cruel inhumanity of the occupation because he may help to reverse the conditions that lead to this unconditional support for Israeli terrorism and apartheid.

firedog 10-19-2011 10:42 AM

Re: A Dark Day in Israel (Robert Wright & Assaf Sharon)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bloggingheads (Post 228442)
Credit for the photo that appears in this diavlog: Oren Ziv/Activestills.org


Theme of the video -lawlessness in Israel. About half the video talks about a mosque burned down in northern Israel

But somehow, they forget to mention that 2 arrests have been made in that case, which completely undermines their whole premise. It also shows either their lack of knowledge of the case, or a deliberate attempt to hide facts and prejudice the conversation.

opposable_crumbs 10-19-2011 01:57 PM

Re: A Dark Day in Israel (Robert Wright & Assaf Sharon)
 
I found most of this discussion was about events in Anatot, which Mr Sharon's group was involved with, rather than the Price Tag attack in Israel. I've not heard anything about whether an investigation or arrests have, or are likely to, be made.

Flaw 11-03-2011 10:52 AM

Re: A Dark Day in Israel (Robert Wright & Assaf Sharon)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx (Post 228456)
copying and pasting my comment from the last DV posted:

hey look, a middle east DV. I think it's the first one this month, right?

I'll stop soon, I promise. Just a little annoying right now!

It is real easy to not watch DV's you are not interested in.

miceelf 11-03-2011 11:24 AM

Re: A Dark Day in Israel (Robert Wright & Assaf Sharon)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx (Post 228471)
I know, I know...but the only way we can, in our own small way, try and influence the sort of DV's we enjoy watching is by giving feedback and pointing out trends.

flies, honey, vinegar


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