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Bloggingheads 12-04-2010 05:07 PM

Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 

operative 12-04-2010 05:46 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Wow...this is an...interesting pairing. I'm no fan of Mark Krikorian's work, nor am I a fan of the SEIU.

A humble request: Mark K has been paired with two voices from the left. Can you pair him with a free market, pro-immigration conservative? I think that'd be quite productive, in part because it would illustrate how fundamentally anti-(American) conservative restrictionist policy advocates are, as opposed to relying on a more conventional, and not altogether accurate, left/right pairing.

harkin 12-04-2010 07:49 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
The DREAM Act is only about one thing, a huge infusion of voters into the dwindling number of Americans who consider themselves progressive/liberal. Don't take my word for it, listen to the SEIU/Democratic Socialists Of America. The amnesty for those who were brought into the U.S. by criminal parents will be followed by the amnesty to prevent the breaking up of families, bank on it.

As to the question of whether the DREAM Act will encourage or curb illegal immigration, one need only consider the 20 million illegals who have arrived since the 1986 Amnesty Act to formulate an answer. If the act's sponsors' promises of a secure border had been kept, the United States would be in much better fiscal and legal shape today (and CA prisons would have many less occupants).

Americans should refuse all attempts at immigration reform until the borders are secured (not closed, secure). Obama is already pulling out the National Guard he used as an election gimmick (funny how the NYTimes, CBS, ABC, WaPo, The Atlantic, Huffington, MSNBC......all the news services who reported repeatedly on the White House's Sept move to increase border security now sit mum as the troops are scheduled to be pulled out). Congresional fact-checkers on Obamacare also show he was lying when he said illegals would not be eligible. Maybe he can get the President of Mexico back to lecture us again on how backward and racist we are.

Let's see.......amnesty, taxpayer-provided health care for illegals and decreasing border surveillance........yep, that ought to deter future illegals.

jeffmaylortx 12-04-2010 08:19 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 191217)
Wow...this is an...interesting pairing. I'm no fan of Mark Krikorian's work, nor am I a fan of the SEIU.

I think that'd be quite productive, in part because it would illustrate how fundamentally anti-(American) conservative restrictionist policy advocates are, as opposed to relying on a more conventional, and not altogether accurate, left/right pairing.

Hold up there. Calling people who have a concern with uncontrolled immigration "Un-American" is uncalled for. The "restrictionist" policies being considered would mainly return immigration to its historic levels. So unless we want to call the first 180 years of American history "Un-American", you should try thinking before you speak.

whburgess 12-04-2010 08:21 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by harkin (Post 191229)
The DREAM Act is only about one thing, a huge infusion of voters into the dwindling number of Americans who consider themselves progressive/liberal. Don't take my word for it, listen to the SEIU/Democratic Socialists Of America. The amnesty for those who were brought into the U.S. by criminal parents will be followed by the amnesty to prevent the breaking up of families, bank on it.

As to the question of whether the DREAM Act will encourage or curb illegal immigration, one need only consider the 20 million illegals who have arrived since the 1986 Amnesty Act to formulate an answer. If the act's sponsors' promises of a secure border had been kept, the United States would be in much better fiscal and legal shape today (and CA prisons would have many less occupants).

Americans should refuse all attempts at immigration reform until the borders are secured (not closed, secure). Obama is already pulling out the National Guard he used as an election gimmick (funny how the NYTimes, CBS, ABC, WaPo, The Atlantic, Huffington, MSNBC......all the news services who reported repeatedly on the White House's Sept move to increase border security now sit mum as the troops are scheduled to be pulled out). Congresional fact-checkers on Obamacare also show he was lying when he said illegals would not be eligible. Maybe he can get the President of Mexico back to lecture us again on how backward and racist we are.

Let's see.......amnesty, taxpayer-provided health care for illegals and decreasing border surveillance........yep, that ought to deter future illegals.

You're assuming most of these illegal immigrants are liberal progressives. They aren't. Most of them are devout catholics coming here to make a better life for their families. If they vote mostly for Democrats its not because they agree with democrats more then republicans on most of the issues----its because people like you give them the impression that right wingers are hateful people who can't tell the difference between a person trying to make a better life for their families and 'criminals'. Yes--it is extremely insensitive to call a poor migrant worker trying to make a better life for their family a 'criminal'. I can't blame them if they view it as hateful--I would if I were in their place--wouldn't you? Think about it.


I agree that the borders should be secure. We can secure the border and stop illegal immigration, with zero tolerance, AND be nice about it. It really is possible. Its as simple as realizing these are mostly good people--in fact heroic who work hard and in many cases risk their lives to provide a better life for their family. Recognizing this doesn't mean we can't secure the border. Being insensitive or hateful to them only creates more sympathy for them and alienation toward the haters in the republican party--i can't blame them. As a republican myself--i find this distressing.

graz 12-04-2010 08:22 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffmaylortx (Post 191232)
Hold up there ... you should try thinking before you speak.

Speak ... or type ... whichever ... we have consensus.

graz 12-04-2010 08:25 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by whburgess (Post 191233)
You're assuming most of these illegal immigrants are liberal progressives. They aren't. Most of them are devout catholics coming here to make a better life for their families. If they vote mostly for Democrats its not because they agree with democrats more then republicans on most of the issues----its because people like you give them the impression that right wingers are hateful people who can't tell the difference between a person trying to make a better life for their families and 'criminals'. Yes--it is extremely insensitive to call a poor migrant worker trying to make a better life for their family a 'criminal'. I can't blame them if they view it as hateful--I would if I were in their place--wouldn't you? Think about it.


I agree that the borders should be secure. We can secure the border and stop illegal immigration, with zero tolerance, AND be nice about it. It really is possible. Its as simple as realizing these are mostly good people--in fact heroic who work hard and in many cases risk their lives to provide a better life for their family. Recognizing this doesn't mean we can't secure the border. Being insensitive or hateful to them only creates more sympathy for them and alienation toward the haters in the republican party--i can't blame them. As a republican myself--i find this distressing.

No Christmas card from rcocean for you.

bjkeefe 12-04-2010 08:29 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by harkin (Post 191229)
... one need only consider the 20 million illegals who have arrived ...

I understand that your racism and xenophobia are too deep-seated, but for the benefit of others:

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/8...isnotanoun.jpg

operative 12-04-2010 08:29 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffmaylortx (Post 191232)
Hold up there. Calling people who have a concern with uncontrolled immigration "Un-American" is uncalled for. The "restrictionist" policies being considered would mainly return immigration to its historic levels. So unless we want to call the first 180 years of American history "Un-American", you should try thinking before you speak.

Oh I meant the American definition of conservative, not anti-American. I tend to stay away from "anti-American" labeling.

bjkeefe 12-04-2010 08:31 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffmaylortx (Post 191232)
Hold up there. Calling people who have a concern with uncontrolled immigration "Un-American" is uncalled for.

The hilarity of jeffmaylortx finding sub-group labels offensive cannot be overstated.

operative 12-04-2010 08:34 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 191236)
I understand that your racism and xenophobia are too deep-seated, but for the benefit of others:

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/8...isnotanoun.jpg

Says the person who uses the term "teabaggers."

Plank, meet eye.

bjkeefe 12-04-2010 08:37 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 191240)
Says the person who uses the term "teabaggers."

Just following their self-appellation.

operative 12-04-2010 08:38 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by whburgess (Post 191233)
You're assuming most of these illegal immigrants are liberal progressives. They aren't. Most of them are devout catholics coming here to make a better life for their families. If they vote mostly for Democrats its not because they agree with democrats more then republicans on most of the issues----its because people like you give them the impression that right wingers are hateful people who can't tell the difference between a person trying to make a better life for their families and 'criminals'. Yes--it is extremely insensitive to call a poor migrant worker trying to make a better life for their family a 'criminal'. I can't blame them if they view it as hateful--I would if I were in their place--wouldn't you? Think about it.


I agree that the borders should be secure. We can secure the border and stop illegal immigration, with zero tolerance, AND be nice about it. It really is possible. Its as simple as realizing these are mostly good people--in fact heroic who work hard and in many cases risk their lives to provide a better life for their family. Recognizing this doesn't mean we can't secure the border. Being insensitive or hateful to them only creates more sympathy for them and alienation toward the haters in the republican party--i can't blame them. As a republican myself--i find this distressing.

Yeah, I agree. Immigration naturally tends to lean toward the more industrious people, since moving to a new country is a very involving process. Having to do so through non-traditional means is even more harrowing for people, many of whom have to cross over very rough terrain. I have a basic philosophy that government shouldn't get in the way of decent people making a living for themselves; that doesn't just hold to people who were fortunate enough to have been born here.

operative 12-04-2010 08:39 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 191241)
Just following their self-appellation.

Oh so if I find a single sign in a pro-immigration rally that uses the term "illegal," that justifies using the term to slander and dehumanize them?

chiwhisoxx 12-04-2010 08:41 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 191241)
Just following their self-appellation.

By using the signs that like 8 people used in order to label thousands, if not millions. Anticipatory rebuttal to your "I make a distinction between conservatives and teabaggers!" is that even if you do, you still certainly end up labeling a lot more than the handful of people who had those signs as "teabaggers." But I do appreciate the self righteous "FIGHT DEHUMANIZATION!!!!!!111" melodrama. Always good for a laugh.

bjkeefe 12-04-2010 08:43 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 191243)
Oh so if I find a single sign ...

Sorry. It's way more than just a single sign.

operative 12-04-2010 08:44 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 191245)
Sorry. It's way more than just a single sign.

Snark over substance. It's clear that your concerns about dehumanization are selective. If it's objectionable to dehumanize others by calling them unwanted names (and do not try to pretend that the vast majority of TPers find the term 'teabagger' to be objectionable), then don't do it. Don't do it, defend it, and then condemn others for doing the same thing.

bjkeefe 12-04-2010 08:44 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx (Post 191244)
By using the signs that like 8 people used ...

Oh, it goes farther than that.

bjkeefe 12-04-2010 08:47 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 191246)
Snark over substance. It's clear that your concerns about dehumanization are selective.

When people have ideas as stupid and hateful as the teabaggers do, it's hard to think of them as fully human.

Meanwhile, let's not forget who picked the name in the first place.

operative 12-04-2010 08:55 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 191248)
When people have ideas as stupid and hateful as the teabaggers do, it's hard to think of them as fully human.

So, disagreeing with someone legitimizes using dehumanizing language. You just justified use of the term "illegal."

Quote:

Meanwhile, let's not forget who picked the name in the first place.
Let's not play semantical games.

bjkeefe 12-04-2010 09:09 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 191249)
[...]

Let's not play semantical games.

Seems to me you just did.

operative 12-04-2010 09:18 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 191251)
Seems to me you just did.

You're trying to pretend that your usage of the term is no different than theirs. It would be like a racist justifying his usage of the term "nig(g)er" by noting that African Americans use it. So it's fine for David Duke to use it.

bjkeefe 12-04-2010 09:19 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 191251)
Seems to me you just did.

Tell you what I will do, though. If you (the operative) and your trainee, chiwhi, run around this board and admonish all those people for doing what you now seem to agree is offensive, and also speak up against those who use liberal and Democrat as a pejorative, and also chastise people like, most recently, jeffmaylortx, but also harkin and rcocean, among others, for their cryptoracist slurs, I will consider avoiding referring to teabaggers as teabaggers in the future.

Until then, penguin ...

bjkeefe 12-04-2010 09:20 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 191253)
You're trying to pretend ...

Update:

Oops. Wrong link originally.

Already addressed.

operative 12-04-2010 09:21 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 191254)
Tell you what I will do, though. If you (the operative) and your trainee, chiwhi, run around this board and admonish all those people for doing what you now seem to agree is offensive, and also speak up against those who use liberal and Democrat as a pejorative, and also chastise people like, most recently, jeffmaylortx, but also harkin and rcocean, among others, for their cryptoracist slurs, I will consider avoiding referring to teabaggers as teabaggers in the future.

Until then, penguin ...

"I will refrain from referring to ni(g)gers as ni(g)gers." Sorry bj, it's up to you to rise above dehumanizing those who you disagree with. You can't pass the buck on this one. So either practice what you preach or step down from the pulpit.

bjkeefe 12-04-2010 09:23 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 191256)
"I will refrain from referring to ni(g)gers as ni(g)gers."

Noted for the record, Lyle.

graz 12-04-2010 09:26 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 191256)
"I will refrain from referring to ni(g)gers as ni(g)gers."

Do you think the parentheses provide an invisibility cloak perfesser?

operative 12-04-2010 09:29 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by graz (Post 191259)
Do you think the parentheses provide an invisibility cloak perfesser?

I'm pointing out the hypocricy of bj's statement by simply replacing one dehumanizing term with one that there's little disagreement over. The parenthesis is to avoid the filter.

bj doesn't want to live by the standard that he wants to hold everyone else to. That's his problem. He can be as big a hypocrite as he wants. But I and every other reasonable person is going to call him on it.

bjkeefe 12-04-2010 09:33 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 191260)
bj doesn't want to live by the standard that he wants to hold everyone else to.

Neither do you, so stop wanking.

It's clear you and chiwhi are butthurt about a name your own side picked for itself, due to being out of touch with real America, only because it emphasizes how ridiculously out of touch you are. You let every other pejorative term on this board pass, especially as they're directed at the left or any non-white and/or non-Christian group.

Spare me your fauxtrage, little Malkin.

operative 12-04-2010 09:38 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 191261)
Neither do you, so stop wanking.

It's not my duty to track down everyone who uses dehumanizing terms on here and harangue them to stop. I don't use dehumanizing terms. You do, and then you have the gall to criticize others for doing the same. I go by my standards; you should live by yours instead of only inspecting others to.

Quote:

You let every other pejorative term on this board pass, especially as they're directed at the left or any non-white and/or non-Christian group.
Actually I've been on record objecting to terms like "illegal." I don't like them any more than "teabagger." At least people who use the term "illegal" don't then have the brass to condemn others for using dehumanizing terms(!)

Quote:

Spare me your fauxtrage, little Malkin.
Pardon me while I roll my eyes.

ImprecisePsychic 12-04-2010 09:51 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Mark Krikorian uses an Anne Coulter technique.

He criticizes the progressives for risking a good solution to immigration reform, in pursuit of a perfect result.

Mr.Krikorian and Ms Coulter never remind us that the Republicans did NOT offer any solutions. But are patient in their sabotage.

whburgess 12-04-2010 09:51 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 191240)
Says the person who uses the term "teabaggers."

Plank, meet eye.

Great point Operative.

I've noticed the consistent civility in your posts even when people like bjkeefe call you names or use derogatory terms for right wingers, tea partiers, etc.

I doubt Bjkeefe has noticed this--because he doesn't put a very high value on civility. Good luck trying to get him to see his hypocrisy in pointing out incivility in others.

bjkeefe 12-04-2010 10:08 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by whburgess (Post 191270)
I doubt Bjkeefe has noticed this ...

I'll tell you what I have noticed. You, kissing up to a couple of wingnuts, hoping they'll keep fighting your battles for you, when you discovered you couldn't stand up for yourself after you were called out on your own homophobia and other offensive language.

bjkeefe 12-04-2010 10:10 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 191265)
It's not my duty to track down everyone who uses dehumanizing terms ...

If you're not going to say anything to others, why should I pay attention when you get all whiny towards me?

You're nothing but a D-league Mallkin-style operative. You're not fooling anyone with your selective fauxtrage.

cacimbo 12-04-2010 10:11 PM

Unions advocate against members
 
SEIU lobbies on behalf of illegal immigrant community - their workers are some of those most at risk should a vast number of illegal's gain legal status.

I used to be pro-union, then I became a union member. Many of these unions are now more corrupt than the employers they are supposedly protecting us from. At least you know where your employer is coming from, they want as much work for as little money as they can get. The unions claim to be on the side of the worker then use the workers own dues money to advocate against their interests. Meanwhile the union leaders are living in the same neighborhoods and driving he same luxury autos - paid for with union dues, as the fat cats they denounce.

I do feel bad for the children brought over by their parents and more or less without a country to call home. Let them gain a path to citizenship with the condition the parents can never gain legal status. The parents should never be rewarded for putting their children in this position.

bjkeefe 12-04-2010 10:12 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ImprecisePsychic (Post 191269)
Mark Krikorian uses an Anne Coulter technique.

That should not be a surprise.

The idea of "Mark Krikorian" and "Values Added" in the same line is a sick joke.

operative 12-04-2010 10:24 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 191275)
If you're not going to say anything to others, why should I pay attention when you get all whiny towards me?

You're the one making a big deal out of other people using dehumanizing terms. You brought it on yourself. This is a matter of your hypocrisy. I find the usage of dehumanizing terms to be objectionable, no matter who is using them. It's not my duty to be the policeman of ethics on bh; it is all of our responsibilities, however, to not be outrageous hypocrites, and you are failing in this duty.

Quote:

You're nothing but a D-league Mallkin-style operative. You're not fooling anyone with your selective fauxtrage.
Uh oh I'm guessing you think I'm a mashed up bag of meat with lipstick. Well I'll have you know that I do not wear lipstick.

operative 12-04-2010 10:26 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by whburgess (Post 191270)
Great point Operative.

I've noticed the consistent civility in your posts even when people like bjkeefe call you names or use derogatory terms for right wingers, tea partiers, etc.

I doubt Bjkeefe has noticed this--because he doesn't put a very high value on civility. Good luck trying to get him to see his hypocrisy in pointing out incivility in others.

There are very few charges that will actually elicit a severe response from me (not that there aren't any). So long as bj keeps his derogations to the typical "Fox and friends!" "Malkin!" "Palin!" etc. routine, we can have a good old time. But there is a line whose crossing will send me into Buckley-on-Vidal mode.

graz 12-04-2010 10:30 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 191281)
There are very few charges that will actually elicit a severe response from me (not that there aren't any). So long as bj keeps his derogations to the typical "Fox and friends!" "Malkin!" "Palin!" etc. routine, we can have a good old time. But there is a line whose crossing will send me into Buckley-on-Vidal mode.

So you're sayin' that teaba(g)ger is the line in the sand, Gore?

operative 12-04-2010 10:32 PM

Re: Values Added: The Dream Act (Josh Bernstein & Mark Krikorian)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by graz (Post 191282)
So you're sayin' that teaba(g)ger is the line in the sand, Gore?

Nope. Bj can use that term all he likes and it will not anger me. It would however be incorrect--not merely at the level of being a crassly dehumanizing term, but also on the level of association: I am not a TPer, I've never attended a TP event, and I have no plans on ever attending a TP event. I'm not fond of rallies, protests, or any other mass political action.


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