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Bloggingheads 11-23-2009 07:30 PM

Mindfulness in Medicine (Alworth & SkepticDoc)
 

bjkeefe 11-23-2009 07:51 PM

Link to diavlog ...
 
... is here.

SkepticDoc 11-23-2009 08:04 PM

Re: Link to diavlog ...
 
Some of my Buddhist links:

Western Philosophy "Integration"
(click on Buddhism to get to the four noble truths)

http://www.thebigview.com/contents.html

Speaking of Faith

http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.o...s/2009/ricard/
http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.o...thichnhathanh/

Medical

http://www.umassmed.edu/content.aspx?id=41252
http://www.umassmed.edu/cfm/mbsr/locate_action.cfm
http://www.uvamindfulnesscenter.org/home.html
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/113735.php
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/302/12/1284
http://www.rachelremen.com/
http://www.ahrq.gov/downloads/pub/ev...tion/medit.pdf
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/113735.php
http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab004998.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract
http://www.cdc.gov/Features/Meditation/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...t=AbstractPlus
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...gdbfrom=pubmed
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...t=AbstractPlus
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/whatisca...y/mindbody.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...t=AbstractPlus
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...t=AbstractPlus
http://www.umassmed.edu/Content.aspx?id=41254
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/1...heart-attacks/
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/he....html?_r=1&hpw
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/1...d-mindfulness/
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...654964#7650123

Science, Universities

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=4770779
http://marc.ucla.edu/
http://marc.ucla.edu/body.cfm?id=22&oTopID=22
http://www.albany.edu/~me888931/home.html
http://www.bethanykok.com/

TED lectures

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/m...happiness.html
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/b...e_buddhas.html
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/w...nd_ritual.html

Buddhism
http://www.buddhanet.net/
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=4979052
http://www.glennwallis.com/yahoo_sit...s.21171305.pdf
http://www.spiritrock.org/display.asp?catid=3&pageid=13
http://www.unc.edu/peplab/publicatio...openhearts.pdf
http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/index-english.html
http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/
http://www.sgi-usa.org/
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?
http://home.att.net/~meditation/MeditationHandbook.html
http://how-to-meditate.org/
http://www.tenzenseconds.com/welcome.html
http://www.ayurveda-berkeley.com/tib...background.htm
http://www.spiritualcrisisnetwork.org.uk/index.htm
http://www.freebuddhistaudio.com/
http://www.audiodharma.org/timer/timer.html
https://ssl.wowpages.com/onsiterecor...conference=137
http://www.mindfulnessdc.org/mindfulclock.html
http://happydays.blogs.nytimes.com/2...tor-is-within/
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/lotus/index.htm
http://www.tipitaka.org/
http://www.suttareadings.net/audio/index.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/index.html
http://sites.google.com/site/marcell...ness-resources
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma10/bbodhi10.html
http://www.vipassana.com/resources/bodhi/index.php
http://www.vipassana.com/index.php
http://www.baus.org/baus/index.html
http://www.bdcublessings.net.au/chanting.html
http://www.viewonbuddhism.org/resour...da_chants.html
http://www.viewonbuddhism.org/
http://www.snowlionpub.com/pages/centers.php%20
http://www.ysdharma.org/
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/...meditate_N.htm
http://happydays.blogs.nytimes.com/2...lf-meditating/
http://www.wildmind.org/
http://www.westernchanfellowship.org/
http://www.bluedomers.com/
http://www.qalias.com/view_profile/Nikko/Hansen/853/0/
http://www.geocities.com/chris_holte...ism/index.html
http://reluctant-messenger.com/buddha.htm
http://www.audiodharma.org/talks-guidedmeditation.html
http://www.dalailama.com/
http://humaninsightsgroup.org/FoodFo...t/FFT-20b.html
http://themiddleway.net/2006/12/28/f...n-chimestimer/
http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~schmitzr/bgz.htm
http://www.dharmaweb.org/index.php/B...Time_and_Space
http://www.dharma.org/ij/archives/20...kkhu_bodhi.htm
http://www.dharma.org/index.html
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe.html
http://www.urbandharma.org/pdf/mindf...in_english.pdf
http://www.mindfulness.com/
http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.ph...k=view&id=2990
http://www.bestinmh.org.uk/answers/p...MHAnswer82.pdf
http://ftworthbuddhas.tripod.com/sit...erfiles/gongyo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arahant_(Buddhism)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Buddhism
http://www.garrisoninstitute.org/home.php
http://www.cnvc.org/
http://www.deerparkmonastery.org/com...ness-trainings

For Skeptics:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...el-hita-torres

Ocean 11-23-2009 09:04 PM

Re: Link to diavlog ...
 
Do you have any more links so that I can check them all before watching this diavlog?


;)

Ocean 11-23-2009 09:33 PM

Re: Mindfulness in Medicine (Alworth & SkepticDoc)
 
OK. I changed my mind and decided to watch this diavlog before checking the links.

Great job! Congrats to both!

But, once again, :( too short. The diavloggers introduced a number of related topics, each of which would easily fill a full hour. Perhaps there will be a follow up.

We should call this project "Apollo Headlines."

Alworth 11-23-2009 09:39 PM

Re: Link to diavlog ...
 
We said we'd link to the four noble truths--and probably they're in SkepticDoc's list!

A comment or two on this diavlog. As Apollo-ites, we were aiming for a 20-minute cap, which makes treating the subject of Buddhism a mite tough. We tried to keep it to the question of mindfulness, but ...

I am gorgeous. Too bad they use this filter.

I had hoped not to talk too much, and until just seeing it now, thought I had accomplished that. But I see I rattled on a lot longer than I thought. Sorry!

Ocean 11-23-2009 09:45 PM

Re: Link to diavlog ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alworth (Post 139849)
We said we'd link to the four noble truths--and probably they're in SkepticDoc's list!

A comment or two on this diavlog. As Apollo-ites, we were aiming for a 20-minute cap, which makes treating the subject of Buddhism a mite tough. We tried to keep it to the question of mindfulness, but ...

I expressed the same in my other post.

Quote:

I am gorgeous. Too bad they use this filter.
Don't worry about the filter. Anybody can tell you're gorgeous. :)

Quote:

I had hoped not to talk too much, and until just seeing it now, thought I had accomplished that. But I see I rattled on a lot longer than I thought. Sorry!
Meh. You're just fishing for more compliments.

Alworth 11-23-2009 09:55 PM

Re: Link to diavlog ...
 
Not biting?

Whatfur 11-23-2009 10:29 PM

Re: Mindfulness in Medicine (Alworth & SkepticDoc)
 
Interesting...

A couple things...the bird, the submarine, or the bird piloting the submarine needs to be in another room next time.

I am not sure if you two started with much of an outline but there was a little lack of choreography that caused...well...a little suffering at times. Once you got wound up and things started to flow a little better it seemed like you were running out of time. I have an interest in "mindfulness" that started with a Buddist connection so I WAS sitting on the edge of my seat trying to absorb your offering.

*side note....The masking has to go.

A Fur Story...and speaking of choreography...

The first time I was sent to China I had the good fortune of working for a company out of Singapore that outsourced to America to purchase someone with my skill set. Working with Singaporeans in China has its advantages as most not only speak fluent Mandarin and English (so I had built in interpreters) but they also were almost more wary of what we were eating than I was. ;o)

I was there for a couple months but on the first Friday evening the upper mgmt of the plant where I was working took the 3 Singaporeans and I to a 5 star hotel that had an amazing eatery that rivaled any place I had ever dined at (complete with food I recognized ;o) ). After dinner it was decided we would walk through a large park across the street that was loaded with people, and hucksters selling things (kites, trinkets etc.) and beggers. Music was being piped in and hundreds were doing that choreographed/martial artsy dance they do.

Now the town I was in (Fuzhou) is not a big tourist destination and actually I only saw 4 other white people in 2 months time. Now I am a bit over 6 ft tall and 220 lbs. (of twisted steel and sex appeal), a trimmed but full beard, and at the time hair to the middle of my back. Needless to say, I stood out a little and there were times when the beggers would see me blocks away and liturally come running. One of the only bits of advice anyone ever gave me before the trip was to say no to the beggers...which was difficult at times. Well... as we walked through this park I was approached by beggers a number of times and my Chinese hosts would quickly get in-between and scold whomever it was doing the begging and all would reluctantly and somewhat angrily go away. I felt bad for both the host, as he seemed embarrassed to have to do it, and for the beggers also...although most there were able bodied.

Near the end of the walk and as we once again were passing by the large group of choreographed dancers, an older woman (60+) snuck in behind our group and pulled on my shirt. I turned around and she smiled showing all of her 4 teeth, said something and held out her hand. Again my Chinese host turned and started yelling at the woman...who started yelling right back. After about 20 seconds of back and forth between the two, as we tried to continue to walk and she continued to follow and yell at him and smile at me, I stopped. Put my hand up in the universal "stop-sign", turned to the woman and asked her if she danced. She did not understand. I asked one of the Singaporeans to ask her if she would dance with me. He did. She looked puzzled. I held out my hand and she slowly grabbed it...and then my other and I proceeded to dance/led her (stiffly)around making use of some of the steps my wife has forced me to learn. You should have seen her smile and the crowd around us point and laugh at the hugh white dog-faced monster dancing with the little old lady. Thankfully, the music stopped after about a minute. I let go of her, bowed to her like Obama did recently in Japan while at the same time I grabbed a couple loose bills from my pocket. I reached out my empty hand again and this time she grabbed it without hesitation. I cupped it with my other shaking hers and discretely pressing the bills in her palm I said thank you, XieXie (shayshay), thank you. She nodded, almost stunned and we all proceeded to walk out of the park.

Ok the point, one of the Singaporeans was a "True" Buddhist and the next day he could not get over what transpired the day before and told me that I was a "natural". Now, I then discovered that Buddhists can be quite "evangelical" as every evening I would go out on the sidewalk to people watch (and be watched) and smoke a cigar. My Singaporean co-worker/friend made it a habit to join me and tell me stories of Nichiren (The true Buddha). The whole trip was a rather surreal experience, but those evenings on a bench near downtown Fuzhou smiling at the gawkers and listening to fanciful stories (or fantasy full stories) were amazing.

In any case, it might be interesting if this topic is broached again to explain where all these Buddha's came from and why and how and the differences and the simularities.

SkepticDoc..I too am an agnostic and I apologize for the suffering I have caused you. There may be a path to cessation. ;o)

look 11-23-2009 10:35 PM

Re: Mindfulness in Medicine (Alworth & SkepticDoc)
 
tl;dr

Whatfur 11-23-2009 10:40 PM

Re: Mindfulness in Medicine (Alworth & SkepticDoc)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by look (Post 139867)
tl;dr

Sorry?

Baltimoron 11-23-2009 11:04 PM

Re: Link to diavlog ...
 
I guess the bhTV staff just wants bloggers effectively to disseminate these Apollo diavlogs!

look 11-23-2009 11:21 PM

Re: Mindfulness in Medicine (Alworth & SkepticDoc)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Whatfur (Post 139868)
Sorry?

Too long didn't read...j/k

look 11-23-2009 11:23 PM

Re: Link to diavlog ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Baltimoron (Post 139875)
I guess the bhTV staff just wants bloggers effectively to disseminate these Apollo diavlogs!

Sorry?

Baltimoron 11-23-2009 11:33 PM

Re: Mindfulness in Medicine (Alworth & SkepticDoc)
 
Do you have links to any well-constructed studies that show meditation is beneficial? I'm skeptical meditation is a useful cure or helps doctors any more than improving the delivery of health care would provide. The NYT article looks like the record of a dodge: we can't really do much to improve services in our hospital, but we can make our doctors beleive they like their job more.

As my non-practicing Buddhist wife says: it's all fine and dandy until money's involved!

Baltimoron 11-23-2009 11:36 PM

Re: Link to diavlog ...
 
There's no link to Apollo diavlogs on the bhTV diavlogs pages, individual or main, and the forum link is busted. I guess Apollo is just a way to distract commenters and massage our egos.

Alworth 11-23-2009 11:45 PM

Re: Mindfulness in Medicine (Alworth & SkepticDoc)
 
Baltimoron, there's a group called the Mind and Life Institute that has done scientific studies into the effects of meditation. Richard Davidson, a neuroscientist at UW-Madison has led a number of studies there. (One example.) For a fuller treatment, I'd recommend Daniel Goleman's "Destructive Emotions," which surveys a number of different studies. The link to the Mind and Life Center, which is connected to Davidson's work, is next to our heads in the diavlog.

Baltimoron 11-24-2009 12:18 AM

Re: Mindfulness in Medicine (Alworth & SkepticDoc)
 
Thanks!

SkepticDoc 11-24-2009 12:42 AM

Re: Link to diavlog ...
 
I organized the URLs, to make the list more manageable...

Wonderment 11-24-2009 01:12 AM

Re: Mindfulness in Medicine (Alworth & SkepticDoc)
 
Nice job, guys!

The most interesting part for me was SkepticDoc's observation about the difficulty of measuring suffering (as opposed to pain) in his patients. Doctors now routinely ask patients to rate their pain on a scale of 1 to 10 with written examples of how the pain manifests that correspond to the numbers. But the quantification of subjective suffering does seem out of reach of science.

I would have liked to learn more from Alworth about Buddhist counseling for the sick and dying. (How does a Buddhist hospice differ from a Christian one?)

I also found it interesting that SD used the Christian Serenity Prayer as a point of departure. The Serenity Prayer is most widely known as the ritual opening and closing of 12-step programs like AA.

Such programs, as I've mentioned before to Ocean, seem very Buddhistic to me, especially in their emphasis on detachment.

AA, the mother of all 12-step programs, began among Christians influenced by the Oxford Group (of reborn sinners) but soon morphed into a more universal spiritual program that many atheists and agnostics also rely on, Higher Power rhetoric notwithstanding.

Whatfur 11-24-2009 06:14 AM

Re: Link to diavlog ...
 
ahhhh you may be right. I think there IS a little thought into making sure in some subtle ways that Apollo actually never quite gets into space....maybe so as to not somehow disturb the professional astronutts. (Now a couple have been pretty good...but in general they have nothing to fear...ouch)

...now I have seen some pretty visible bugs exist on large systems for an unseemly amount of time but making the "View Diavlog" work almost seems easier than...say...disabling it. ;o)

SkepticDoc 11-24-2009 06:30 AM

Re: Mindfulness in Medicine (Alworth & SkepticDoc)
 
I am not aware of any Buddhist Hospice programs, Hospice care "should" be free of any dogma, except for the commitment to provide comfort in the last days of awareness.

This JAMA link may help (OMG, one more link!)

We did not not cover our atheist foundations...

Last Sunday "60 Minutes" had a good piece on "the last days" and the expenses associated with them:

http://www.cbs.com/primetime/60_minu...rue&vs=Default

There are additional extras:

http://www.cbs.com/primetime/60_minu...=true&vs=Clips

http://www.cbs.com/primetime/60_minu...=true&vs=Clips

From CNN:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/wayof...ter/index.html

Whatfur 11-24-2009 06:49 AM

Re: Mindfulness in Medicine (Alworth & SkepticDoc)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 139918)
Nice job, guys!

The most interesting part for me was SkepticDoc's observation about the difficulty of measuring suffering (as opposed to pain) in his patients. Doctors now routinely ask patients to rate their pain on a scale of 1 to 10 with written examples of how the pain manifests that correspond to the numbers. But the quantification of subjective suffering does seem out of reach of science.
...
.

Having heard doctors/nurses ask the question you refer to above a number of times, I have always found it useless and laughable. The person in pain in seldom able to apply their pain to any real scale and I have always felt the asker was seldom able to relate the answer to anything but their own reality anyway.

Plus, pain is such and individual thing...one evening, a number of years ago, needing wood for our woodstove/fireplace, and having already hauled some from the woodpile in a sled parked a couple meters from the side door I walked outside barefoot in the snow and proceeded to stack split logs on my shoulder. As I walked back into the house, a log from my stack slipped off my shoulder and fell...angling perfectly to smack my big toe. I set down (dropped) the rest of my load where I was and began jumping up and down spewing substandard colloquialisms. At one point I glanced at my wife and noticed what seemed to be a little smile on her face. I cried, "What the hell are you smiling at". Her smile disappeared and she apologetically said, "I'm sorry, but or as long as I've known you, I have never seen you react to pain". It hit me that she was right...as my reaction to smacking my head on the corner of something or hitting my fingers with a hammmer or or... is generally a shaking of my head and silently calling myself something derogatory.

Similar but different, I remember a woman at work reacting to a paper cut as if her arm had been wrenched off in some mechanical mishap...liturally dropping to the carpet and rolling back and forth screaming. I was incredulous...and if she would have looked up she probably would have said "What the hell are you smiling at"

Whatfur 11-24-2009 07:03 AM

Re: Mindfulness in Medicine (Alworth & SkepticDoc)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SkepticDoc (Post 139938)
I am not aware of any Buddhist Hospice programs, Hospice care "should" be free of any dogma, except for the commitment to provide comfort in the last days of awareness.

....

I disagree and find it amazing that as a physician and someone who wants to dabble with easing the physical with the mental that you would deny a patient the possible extra solace they might find with their God.

Yes, it should be free of dogma for those who wish for it to be free of dogma.


p.s. seeing something on 60 minutes does not make it true.

Whatfur 11-24-2009 07:13 AM

Re: Mindfulness in Medicine (Alworth & SkepticDoc)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Baltimoron (Post 139896)
Do you have links to any well-constructed studies that show meditation is beneficial? I'm skeptical meditation is a useful cure or helps doctors any more than improving the delivery of health care would provide. The NYT article looks like the record of a dodge: we can't really do much to improve services in our hospital, but we can make our doctors beleive they like their job more.

As my non-practicing Buddhist wife says: it's all fine and dandy until money's involved!

Similar, there was a number of people heavily into bio-feedback 30 odd years ago...even where I remember reading a story of someone supposedly curing their cancer by attacking it with meditation and carrot juice. I think most all of it has been debunked.

A stress reducer, pain deflecter...sure.

SkepticDoc 11-24-2009 07:22 AM

Re: Mindfulness in Medicine (Alworth & SkepticDoc)
 
I try to ignore your posts, but this one merits clarification.

Some patients want religious comfort and others don't, Hospice has to adapt to the individual patient's needs.

Some will want an evangelical preacher exorcising, others will want silence.

If you really care, look up Hal Bidlack's (a theist with the JREF) video on the last days of his atheist wife.

Whatfur 11-24-2009 07:34 AM

Re: Mindfulness in Medicine (Alworth & SkepticDoc)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SkepticDoc (Post 139943)
I try to ignore your posts, but this one merits clarification.

Some patients want religious comfort and others don't, Hospice has to adapt to the individual patient's needs.

Some will want an evangelical preacher exorcising, others will want silence.

If you really care, look up Hal Bidlack's (a theist with the JREF) video on the last days of his atheist wife.

You ignore my posts!?! Noooooooo! ;o) I gave you 21 minutes of listening here ...you at least need to read my posts... here. Maybe ignoring the origin of your suffering lets you also ignore the other 3 truths. There might me a new religion in there somewhere.

In any case, by the above it sounds like we really ARE of like mind on this subject...the post I responded to seemed to state something a bit different.

...Oh and sure everyone else gets dozens of links and I am told to go look it up. ;o)

Ocean 11-24-2009 07:36 AM

Re: Mindfulness in Medicine (Alworth & SkepticDoc)
 
The experience of pain is subjective and therefore, difficult to measure. In research there are techniques that at least attempt to make its measurement somewhat more standardized. Here is a link to the methods that are used. I was somewhat familiar with the cold pressor test.

Francoamerican 11-24-2009 09:46 AM

Re: Mindfulness in Medicine (Alworth & SkepticDoc)
 
Sceptics and mystics usually have nothing to say to one another...but both of you did! Thanks.

I was wondering if one of you could recommend a book on Buddhist ideas of the mind, a subject you broached near the end. Something historical and philosophical, i.e. not an apology pro domo.

Alworth 11-24-2009 11:18 AM

Re: Mindfulness in Medicine (Alworth & SkepticDoc)
 
On books about the mind, I would recommend B. Alan Wallace. He has worked with Davidson and is currently engaged in a scientific study about shamata meditation and it's effect on the mind. But his background is Buddhism and he was a monk for a number of years. He's one of the best interpreters of Buddhism for a Western audience. Just Google him or go to Amazon.

look 11-24-2009 11:26 AM

Re: Link to diavlog ...
 
Surely that was an over-sight, but it was a pain. Uh...an over-sight that hasn't been fixed yet...

I still think it's fun. It's a way for the average person to 'play diavlog.' It's a way to challenge yourself, expand your experience, receive feed-back, make the community more integrated, whatever that means, etc.

AemJeff 11-24-2009 12:24 PM

Re: Mindfulness in Medicine (Alworth & SkepticDoc)
 
I want you guys (Doc and Alworth) to know that I had a reasonably good knowledge of Hindu cosmology at one time. (Thirty years have passed since I've really given it much thought, I'll admit.) I also have the same sort of slightly shallow and pretentious knowledge of Buddhism that any curious and youthful reader of Hermann Hesse's novels would be likely to have. One thing that impresses me is the relative lack of a priori assertions about the nature of the world seemingly embodied by what I know of Buddhist belief. I think Buddhism at least has chance to qualify as a formal set of "spiritual" beliefs that is also compatible with scientific humility before the world.

SkepticDoc 11-24-2009 12:28 PM

Re: Mindfulness in Medicine (Alworth & SkepticDoc)
 
I cannot recommend any books, I personally doubt that any one book has an answer for either side.

I will suggest reading about Leibniz:

http://www.earlymoderntexts.com/pdf/leibuo.pdf

There was a diavlog: http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/21417

This Yale Online course is excellent, the reading list is a good resource:

http://oyc.yale.edu/philosophy

Ultimately, it is a matter of "faith" and "hope" for something else, you have it or you don't.

Even Diamond raised the question in one of his lectures (YouTube of course!): why is there anything at all?

For Francophiles:

http://forumethix-ch.blogspot.com/

(I cheat, I love Google translation!)

SkepticDoc 11-24-2009 01:00 PM

Re: Mindfulness in Medicine (Alworth & SkepticDoc)
 
Would you like to comment about the concept of "kalpa"?

I was struck with awe the first time that I heard about it, what a difference from other cultures that believe that the Universe is only 6,000 years old!

How can we explain the difference in perception of time-space between different cultures?

AemJeff 11-24-2009 01:12 PM

Re: Mindfulness in Medicine (Alworth & SkepticDoc)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SkepticDoc (Post 140040)
Would you like to comment about the concept of "kalpa"?

I was struck with awe the first time that I heard about it, what a difference from other cultures that believe that the Universe is only 6,000 years old!

How can we explain the difference in perception of time-space between different cultures?

I can't meaningfully, but I recommend to you the Arthur C. Clarke story The Nine Billion Names of God. (Full text at the link.)

SkepticDoc 11-24-2009 01:17 PM

Re: Mindfulness in Medicine (Alworth & SkepticDoc)
 
I know... the stars were dimming...

AemJeff 11-24-2009 01:24 PM

Re: Mindfulness in Medicine (Alworth & SkepticDoc)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SkepticDoc (Post 140046)
...

Doc! Never give out the punchline!

Francoamerican 11-24-2009 02:11 PM

Re: Mindfulness in Medicine (Alworth & SkepticDoc)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SkepticDoc (Post 140023)
I cannot recommend any books, I personally doubt that any one book has an answer for either side.

I will suggest reading about Leibniz:

http://www.earlymoderntexts.com/pdf/leibuo.pdf

There was a diavlog: http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/21417

This Yale Online course is excellent, the reading list is a good resource:

http://oyc.yale.edu/philosophy

Ultimately, it is a matter of "faith" and "hope" for something else, you have it or you don't.

Even Diamond raised the question in one of his lectures (YouTube of course!): why is there anything at all?

For Francophiles:

http://forumethix-ch.blogspot.com/

(I cheat, I love Google translation!)

Thanks. Leibniz, or a summary of his ideas, is read by every philosophy student in France. I am not sure I see his relevance here. Indeed I think the line that runs from Descartes--Spinoza-Leibniz-Kant is a deadend when it comes to the mind/body problem.

Dennett, I think, is wrong about everything.

Francoamerican 11-24-2009 02:12 PM

Re: Mindfulness in Medicine (Alworth & SkepticDoc)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alworth (Post 139979)
On books about the mind, I would recommend B. Alan Wallace. He has worked with Davidson and is currently engaged in a scientific study about shamata meditation and it's effect on the mind. But his background is Buddhism and he was a monk for a number of years. He's one of the best interpreters of Buddhism for a Western audience. Just Google him or go to Amazon.

Thanks Alsworth. I'll look that up.

handle 11-24-2009 02:46 PM

Re: Mindfulness in Medicine (Alworth & SkepticDoc)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by look (Post 139886)
Too long didn't read...j/k

it;af....I tried and failed. The Black Knight's new strategy of punishing the reader with an agonizing yawnfest just might prove effective at abating those who would counter his bullshit. Well played Sir Knight!

Ever consider using a ghost writer? They are at least good for editing out pointless verbiage and anecdotes. And might even help tone down your delusion of self importance.

But all criticism aside, I must reiterate my admiration. A couple more like that, and you can finally declare victory in earnest.


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