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Bloggingheads 10-07-2011 03:49 PM

The Week in Blog: Negative Feedback Edition (Chris Moody & Matt Lewis)
 

db63 10-07-2011 09:31 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Negative Feedback Edition (Chris Moody & Matt Lewis)
 
this is so obviously not just extreme left-wingers. two seconds of reading about it would teach someone this. what shoddy knowledge moody displayed.

Sulla the Dictator 10-07-2011 09:50 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Negative Feedback Edition (Chris Moody & Matt Lewis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by db63 (Post 227678)
this is so obviously not just extreme left-wingers. two seconds of reading about it would teach someone this. what shoddy knowledge moody displayed.

The manifesto put out by the organizers of this group is pretty left wing. Even by international standards.

badhatharry 10-07-2011 11:04 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Negative Feedback Edition (Chris Moody & Matt Lewis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator (Post 227680)
The manifesto put out by the organizers of this group is pretty left wing. Even by international standards.

exhibit A.

*These grievances are not all-inclusive.

CrowsMakeTools 10-08-2011 05:24 AM

Re: The Week in Blog: Negative Feedback Edition (Chris Moody & Matt Lewis)
 
1 Attachment(s)
I attended the OccupyDC rally in Freedom Plaza on Thursday evening. There were about 500 people there. No visible police, at all. Most of the content that evening was anti-war. This probably, of course, had something to do with the 10th anniversary of the American military engagement in Afghanistan. There were 1 or 2 Ron Paul signs, but no other explicit references to the 2012 election campaign. The weather was perfect, very pleasant. As far as the agenda of the "organizers," I think it is important to note:

1) There are no organizers
2) There is no "agenda." People attend these events with a diverse set of agendas.

My sense was that most of the attendees were not so much hostile to Obama, as they shared a sense that, for various reasons, the administration was really powerless to exert any kind of meaningful change now.

harkin 10-08-2011 10:19 AM

Re: The Week in Blog: Negative Feedback Edition (Chris Moody & Matt Lewis)
 
The comparisons to the Tea Party are hilarious. As much as the msm tries to spin this as the mirror image, they have to deal with the fact that the Day Of Rage/OWS types are a lot more disruptive and high maintenance, which is exactly the point as Tea Partiers pride themselves on being responsible for one's self:

From CBS News

"The cramped and noisy protest in Zuccotti Park does not appear to be going anywhere soon. To date, the occupation has cost the city an extra $2 million in police overtime alone.

The owners of the private park, Brookfield Office Properties, cannot simply eject the demonstrators because the charter for the park allows 24-hour public access. But the owners never counted on this and appear to be getting fed up.

In a statement they said “because the protestors refuse to cooperate…the park has not been cleaned since Friday, September 16th and as a result, sanitary conditions have reached unacceptable levels.”


Let's see, costing millions to the taxpayers, unable to clean up after themselves, noisy and disruptive. The exact opposite of the Tea Partiers actually.

graz 10-08-2011 10:27 AM

Ernie Anastos says:
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by harkin (Post 227695)
The comparisons to the Tea Party are hilarious ... The exact opposite of the Tea Partiers actually.

That chicken must be exhausted! I'm of a mind to report you to Animal Welfare.

harkin 10-08-2011 10:42 AM

Re: The Week in Blog: Negative Feedback Edition (Chris Moody & Matt Lewis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CrowsMakeTools (Post 227690)
I attended the OccupyDC rally in Freedom Plaza on Thursday evening.........
.......1) There are no organizers.

In regards to the DC rally, there was at least one instance of an organizer hiring people to carry signs, which is nothing new regarding leftie protests.

In regards to Day Of Rage/OWS, there are quite a few organizers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrowsMakeTools (Post 227690)
My sense was that most of the attendees were not so much hostile to Obama, as they shared a sense that, for various reasons, the administration was really powerless to exert any kind of meaningful change now.

Hostile to Obama? Groups of people demanding that government take from those who work hard enough to provide for themselves and bestow upon the protesters everything they want (healthcare, college, food, housing) while condemning the market system that gives them the best chance at providing for themselves? It's pure Obama.

harkin 10-08-2011 10:50 AM

Re: Ernie Anastos says:
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by graz (Post 227696)
That chicken must be exhausted! I'm of a mind to report you to Animal Welfare.

Yep, banging on drums for days, sitting in filth, asking the government to provide everything they want, being paid to carry signs, occupying space without permits and costing the taxpayers millions in maintenance......just like the Tea Party. lol

How apt you should employ the term 'Animal Welfare'

Considering you just laid an egg, you're the one who should be exhausted.

graz 10-08-2011 11:03 AM

Re: Ernie Anastos says:
 
Did a hippie break your heart back in the day?
There's breakthrough treament available, even for calcified old-timers:
Quote:

...*exposure* to psilocybin could help those individuals whose thinking processes are dominated by their reptilian brain to evolve to higher levels of consciousness and even, *gasp* exprience empathy? Have we, at long last, found the cure for conservatism?
http://www.samefacts.com/2011/10/spi...nality-change/

harkin 10-08-2011 01:31 PM

Re: Ernie Anastos says:
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by graz (Post 227703)
Did a hippie break your heart back in the day?
There's breakthrough treament available, even for calcified old-timers:

Ad hominen and nothing else - that would be the better indicator of a mind needing some sort of stimulant (shrooms, really?) but I'll leave those hallucinations to the left side of these boards.

But maybe I owe you guys an apology, I googled the demonstrations and heck, I'd swear it was a Tea Party - the only thing missing was a tri-cornered hat.

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/5...yragefilth.jpg

http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/4...fecatoredt.jpg

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/8...frageloons.jpg

badhatharry 10-08-2011 02:02 PM

Re: Ernie Anastos says:
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by harkin (Post 227711)
I'd swear it was a Tea Party - the only thing missing was a tri-cornered hat.

and a shirt.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/...93_634x829.jpg

badhatharry 10-08-2011 04:53 PM

Re: Ernie Anastos says:
 
and lest we forget...

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...59218400_n.jpg

Sulla the Dictator 10-08-2011 04:58 PM

Re: Ernie Anastos says:
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by harkin (Post 227711)
Ad hominen and nothing else - that would be the better indicator of a mind needing some sort of stimulant (shrooms, really?) but I'll leave those hallucinations to the left side of these boards.

But maybe I owe you guys an apology, I googled the demonstrations and heck, I'd swear it was a Tea Party - the only thing missing was a tri-cornered hat.

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/5...yragefilth.jpg

http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/4...fecatoredt.jpg

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/8...frageloons.jpg


Disgusting. Where is the gendarmerie when you need it?

stephanie 10-08-2011 05:14 PM

Re: Ernie Anastos says:
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by graz (Post 227696)
That chicken must be exhausted! I'm of a mind to report you to Animal Welfare.

Heh.

I just walked past our local version. It seemed peaceful and there seems to be no more filth than usual. No seething with hate, in fact, which seems to distinguish them from the Tea Party and perhaps harkin's posts. Also, no weapons that I noticed. (I still think the message is basically incoherent and feel no desire to join in, but the rhetoric here is rather amusing.)

AemJeff 10-08-2011 07:20 PM

Re: Ernie Anastos says:
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanie (Post 227728)
Heh.

I just walked past our local version. It seemed peaceful and there seems to be no more filth than usual. No seething with hate, in fact, which seems to distinguish them from the Tea Party and perhaps harkin's posts. Also, no weapons that I noticed. (I still think the message is basically incoherent and feel no desire to join in, but the rhetoric here is rather amusing.)

Heh.

(I do hope rcocean enjoys this post!)

badhatharry 10-08-2011 10:40 PM

Re: Ernie Anastos says:
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 227734)
Heh.

(I do hope rcocean enjoys this post!)

since you know how magnets work, I thought you'd enjoy this.

Sorry to corrupt this pristine thread :)

CrowsMakeTools 10-08-2011 11:20 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Negative Feedback Edition (Chris Moody & Matt Lewis)
 
Maybe I'm missing something, but:
1) Healthcare reform hasn't exactly happened yet
2) There have been no increases in entitlement programs or relaxation in eligibility requirements for college tuition support, housing, or food/nutrition support. There have not been any laws passed expanding access to any of these things.
3) Treasurer Secretary Tim Geithner, a former chairman of the New York Federal Reserve Bank and engineer of the TARP program, is not exactly the guy you are likely to expect to see manning the barricades of protesters condemning the market system.
4) Obama has cut taxes. He also agreed with the Republicans to extension of the Bush tax cuts.
5) Working classes wages continue to shrink. The share of national income that goes to the lower 4 quintiles of the population continues to shrink. The redistribution of wealth towards the wealthiest Americans, a trend that has been in place for the past 30 years, has continued under the Obama administration.

Certainly there are issues where conservatives can take issue with Obama, but it's intellectually incoherent to accuse him of attempting to overthrow the market system while he, Mr. Bush and Mr. Boehner all followed Wall Street's lead and agreed to enactment of the TARP legislation. There has been no redistribution of wealth toward middle class or poor Americans. The policies of the Obama Administration have down nothing to reduce the trend toward greater disparities in income and wealth that have been evolving for the past 30 years.

badhatharry 10-09-2011 12:06 AM

Re: The Week in Blog: Negative Feedback Edition (Chris Moody & Matt Lewis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CrowsMakeTools (Post 227750)
Maybe I'm missing something, but:
1) Healthcare reform hasn't exactly happened yet
2) There have been no increases in entitlement programs or relaxation in eligibility requirements for college tuition support, housing, or food/nutrition support. There have not been any laws passed expanding access to any of these things.

I'm on the run, but I disagree with 1 and 2. The effects of ACA are being felt already with rising premiums and mandates to insurance providers. And when in the past have you ever heard of 99 weeks of unemployment being doled out?

chiwhisoxx 10-09-2011 01:45 AM

Re: The Week in Blog: Negative Feedback Edition (Chris Moody & Matt Lewis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CrowsMakeTools (Post 227750)
Maybe I'm missing something, but:
1) Healthcare reform hasn't exactly happened yet
2) There have been no increases in entitlement programs or relaxation in eligibility requirements for college tuition support, housing, or food/nutrition support. There have not been any laws passed expanding access to any of these things.
3) Treasurer Secretary Tim Geithner, a former chairman of the New York Federal Reserve Bank and engineer of the TARP program, is not exactly the guy you are likely to expect to see manning the barricades of protesters condemning the market system.
4) Obama has cut taxes. He also agreed with the Republicans to extension of the Bush tax cuts.
5) Working classes wages continue to shrink. The share of national income that goes to the lower 4 quintiles of the population continues to shrink. The redistribution of wealth towards the wealthiest Americans, a trend that has been in place for the past 30 years, has continued under the Obama administration.

Certainly there are issues where conservatives can take issue with Obama, but it's intellectually incoherent to accuse him of attempting to overthrow the market system while he, Mr. Bush and Mr. Boehner all followed Wall Street's lead and agreed to enactment of the TARP legislation. There has been no redistribution of wealth toward middle class or poor Americans. The policies of the Obama Administration have down nothing to reduce the trend toward greater disparities in income and wealth that have been evolving for the past 30 years.

a few arguments to pick here. long term trends like things relating to share of national income going to certain groups is a ridiculous thing to expect a president to dramatically change. even if liberals got their wish, and we returned to the clinton era marginal tax rates of 39% ish, those long term trends would barely budge.

second, the claim that he has cut taxes is deceitful. that's like me making the claim that Bush cut spending, because I can find some obscure program that lost some small amount of funding. and the point isn't to make a comparison between obama's tax cutting and bush's spending cuts. the point is that these things matter in the aggregate. and I think you'd have an extremely difficult time making the case that barack obama has cut taxes. the way you score this gets complicated if you measure the baseline in different ways as it relates to the bush tax cuts, but let's put that aside. the tax cuts are set to expire in 2012, and it also seems worth bearing in mind that obama has made it clear that if he had his druthers, the tax cuts for everyone above 250k would disappear. so have it.

miceelf 10-09-2011 08:24 AM

Re: The Week in Blog: Negative Feedback Edition (Chris Moody & Matt Lewis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx (Post 227760)
second, the claim that he has cut taxes is deceitful. that's like me making the claim that Bush cut spending, because I can find some obscure program that lost some small amount of funding. and the point isn't to make a comparison between obama's tax cutting and bush's spending cuts. the point is that these things matter in the aggregate. and I think you'd have an extremely difficult time making the case that barack obama has cut taxes. the way you score this gets complicated if you measure the baseline in different ways as it relates to the bush tax cuts, but let's put that aside. the tax cuts are set to expire in 2012, and it also seems worth bearing in mind that obama has made it clear that if he had his druthers, the tax cuts for everyone above 250k would disappear. so have it.

Obama cut payroll taxes, and didn't raise any other taxes. That's hardly the same as Bush vis-a-vis spending. And payroll taxes aren't some obscure minor detail.
If and when the Bush tax cuts expire, then you'll have an argument about what Obama has done wrt taxes. Till then, I don't see how one make the argument that he hasn't cut taxes, in instances, in the aggregate, whatever.

badhatharry 10-09-2011 11:45 AM

Re: The Week in Blog: Negative Feedback Edition (Chris Moody & Matt Lewis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 227765)
Obama cut payroll taxes, and didn't raise any other taxes. That's hardly the same as Bush vis-a-vis spending. And payroll taxes aren't some obscure minor detail.
If and when the Bush tax cuts expire, then you'll have an argument about what Obama has done wrt taxes. Till then, I don't see how one make the argument that he hasn't cut taxes, in instances, in the aggregate, whatever.

Here's what I'm curious about...so they cut payroll tax which directly affects Social Security funding now and presumably lowers what the person can expect to collect in retirement. Isn't this just kicking that can, as they say?

harkin 10-09-2011 01:53 PM

Re: Ernie Anastos says:
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanie (Post 227728)
..........No seething with hate, in fact, which seems to distinguish them from the Tea Party and perhaps harkin's posts....... (I still think the message is basically incoherent and feel no desire to join in..........)

heh - gotta love the deflection. Why address the reality of the photos when you can attack the messenger?

While your projection of 'seething with hate' (feel free to cut and paste my most hateful statement) is the usual attempt at marginalizing claptrap, at least you admit the basic fact about the message of the protests.

chiwhisoxx 10-09-2011 02:46 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Negative Feedback Edition (Chris Moody & Matt Lewis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 227765)
Obama cut payroll taxes, and didn't raise any other taxes. That's hardly the same as Bush vis-a-vis spending. And payroll taxes aren't some obscure minor detail.
If and when the Bush tax cuts expire, then you'll have an argument about what Obama has done wrt taxes. Till then, I don't see how one make the argument that he hasn't cut taxes, in instances, in the aggregate, whatever.

Didn't raise any other taxes? You're only thinking of tax rates, which is an awful way to think about taxes. You could write a long post on the tax increases from just the healthcare bill alone, for both consumers and companies alike. There are smaller, and arguably more defensible tax increases like raising cigarette taxes, but they are tax increases nonetheless. And again, I think it's worth considering the President's stated policy goals include more tax increases, the most notable being on the wealthy and a potential gas tax.

Don Zeko 10-09-2011 03:13 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Negative Feedback Edition (Chris Moody & Matt Lewis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx (Post 227776)
Didn't raise any other taxes? You're only thinking of tax rates, which is an awful way to think about taxes. You could write a long post on the tax increases from just the healthcare bill alone, for both consumers and companies alike. There are smaller, and arguably more defensible tax increases like raising cigarette taxes, but they are tax increases nonetheless. And again, I think it's worth considering the President's stated policy goals include more tax increases, the most notable being on the wealthy and a potential gas tax.

I think you're weighing the scales in a pretty odd way. On the one hand, we have tax decreases that were actually carried out. In this column, we've got the various cuts and credits in the stimulus, most of them temporary, plus the payroll tax cuts and extension of the Bush Tax Cuts that he passed.

Then you have the tax increases that have actually come to pass under Obama. This column is basically just the taxes included in the ACA, meaning the surtax on expensive health care plans, a few increases in sin taxes on cigarettes, things like that.

And then we get to tax cuts or increases that haven't been carried out, but that you think Obama wants to implement. Here we've basically got the non-extension of the Bush tax cuts on income over $250,000, although I suppose you could throw in some kind of Carbon tax or gas tax, which I think is silly since there's no chance of Obama actually passing such a thing anytime soon, and perhaps the other unpassable tax increases on the wealthy that he included in his recent jobs bill. Of these, the non-extension of the Bush Tax Cuts are the only thing that I think has the slightest chance of happening.

So when you add all of this up, what you really see is that it's silly to talk about Obama having raised taxes or cut taxes in a binary way. In the short term, he has cut taxes. In the medium-to-long term, assuming he doesn't get his way on the Bush cuts, he has probably raised taxes slightly in a few particular areas. If he does get his way, then you have short term tax cuts in a variety of areas paired with long term tax increases for the wealthy, for certain parts of the health care market, and for a couple of other small areas. This could support a reasonable assertion that he has "cut taxes" or that he's raised them, but the important question is whether or not this is a good idea. And here, unless you put quite a lot of emphasis on an ideological project to shrink government come hell or high water, the case against medium and long term tax hikes is about as weak as the case against short term tax cuts.

Sulla the Dictator 10-09-2011 03:37 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Negative Feedback Edition (Chris Moody & Matt Lewis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 227778)
I think you're weighing the scales in a pretty odd way. On the one hand, we have tax decreases that were actually carried out. In this column, we've got the various cuts and credits in the stimulus, most of them temporary, plus the payroll tax cuts and extension of the Bush Tax Cuts that he passed.

Then you have the tax increases that have actually come to pass under Obama. This column is basically just the taxes included in the ACA, meaning the surtax on expensive health care plans, a few increases in sin taxes on cigarettes, things like that.

I think you kind of glossed over the more significant taxes in the ACA. The inclusion of investment income in Medicaid taxation, and a massive increase in taxation on rental income. And of course, the levy of a $2,000 tax per employee on every business of more than 30 people that doesn't offer insurance.

miceelf 10-09-2011 08:59 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Negative Feedback Edition (Chris Moody & Matt Lewis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx (Post 227776)
You're only thinking of tax rates, which is an awful way to think about taxes. You could write a long post on the tax increases from just the healthcare bill alone, for both consumers and companies alike. There are smaller, and arguably more defensible tax increases like raising cigarette taxes, but they are tax increases nonetheless.

Well, it's true that I was thinking about income taxes.

CrowsMakeTools 10-10-2011 12:05 AM

Re: The Week in Blog: Negative Feedback Edition (Chris Moody & Matt Lewis)
 
1) As far as the President's ability to change the income distribution, I agree. This is a trend that has been in place for 30 years. It doesn't have anything to do with this administration's policies, and there is nothing this administration has done that will change the direction of the trend. To claim that Obama is a socialist whose project is to redistribute wealth ignores these basic facts.

2) As far as the tax structure, the 2010 tax deal between the administration and the Congress extended the Bush tax cuts, and added a 2% payroll tax cut, from 6.2% to 4.2%. The 2% tax cut amounts to 112 billion annually. If are to argue that it's ridiculous to claim Obama cut taxes, I'm not exactly sure how you can account for these facts.

stephanie 10-10-2011 02:52 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Negative Feedback Edition (Chris Moody & Matt Lewis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 227778)
Then you have the tax increases that have actually come to pass under Obama. This column is basically just the taxes included in the ACA, meaning the surtax on expensive health care plans, a few increases in sin taxes on cigarettes, things like that.

It's interesting to note that McCain's health care plan would have eliminated the tax break for all employees who get health care through their employers. (I don't actually think this would have been a bad thing, although part of an overall plan I didn't care for and impossible to pass. However, it is more of a tax increase than those Obama is being accused of.)


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