Bloggingheads Community

Bloggingheads Community (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/index.php)
-   Diavlog comments (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=9)
-   -   God Bless America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury) (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?t=7028)

ohreally 09-12-2011 01:06 AM

Re: God Bless America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
[QUOTE=Ocean;225412]
Quote:

There was a time when understanding physics was reasonably easy. How easy is for the average person to have a good understanding of relativity or quantum physics?
Relativity and quantum physics are about 100 years old. I thought "is becoming more complex" referred to, like, right now.

Quote:

Yes, the intellectual discussion seems to have become simplistic at many levels. Isn't that in part because a significant portion of the discussion has reverted to discussing basics that are being challenged by the willful ignorant?
True, but I don't understand why intellectuals spend so much of their energy addressing the idiocy of the willful ignorant (and of course failing miserably at it). And when I see the same people scold IDers and then explain to us that morality evolved as a process of natural selection, my reaction is that they deserve each other. My point is that many public intellectuals who vituperate against pseudoscience are themselves shameless practitioners of pseudoscience. And that's all part of the cultural impoverishment of our age.

AemJeff 09-12-2011 01:19 AM

Re: God Bless America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
[QUOTE=ohreally;225426]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 225412)

Relativity and quantum physics are about 100 years old. I thought "is becoming more complex" referred to, like, right now.



...

String theory seems a lot more complex than quantum mechanics. Whether it's generated empirically useful models notwithstanding, I'd say it counts as "modern physics."

Sulla the Dictator 09-12-2011 01:24 AM

Re: God Bless America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 225393)
Nice conversation.

Glenn went on about arrogance and elitism and the like for quite a while. I guess he was at least partly trying to be devil's advocate. I agreed more with John's opinion about our world of knowledge becoming too complex and vast for people to be able to grasp knowledge in all areas with any depth. It is because of that complexity that we need to make decisions about who we will trust to represent an authoritative opinion. Do we trust NOAA or a psychic to be able to report on the course of a hurricane?

I think a better example, to frame the question, would be, "Do we trust a former lawyer to make decisions about economics, or science, or war?" Or to be even more generous to elites like Krugman, "Do we trust a former economist whose job has been editorializing on politics for the last twelve years?

The problem with appeals to authority is that politics, or even economics, are not "science". They are competing ideas of value, and you can't plug in human behavior as some concrete factor.

Quote:

John's reference to willful ignorance seems quite appropriate. I think that experts in any area are feeling tired and frustrated by the phenomenon of willful ignorance and the level of acceptance that it has gathered in this country. It's very worrisome. It's similar to an epidemic.
Am I to assume that this solely refers to global warming?

Quote:

Questioning the age of the earth, or evolution based on religious texts should be challenged and rejected.
Why? What are the policy implications of either belief? Why must these beliefs be questioned, while Scientologist views on aliens, or Mormon beliefs about historical race wars are politely ignored? Or the dogma of leftist atheists on the heritability of intelligence, or behavior?

In other words, by what right does an elite group of media people and academics scold a public on truth?

Sulla the Dictator 09-12-2011 01:33 AM

Re: God Bless America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 225410)
No, that fear tactic takes place mostly in Sunday schools where they brainwash kids to believe in the rupture, or in Republican discourse making people believe that Democrats are communists or that all Muslims are terrorists.

How silly. I mean, I can't believe liberals actually believe this stuff when they say it. Andre Carson just claimed that the Tea Party Caucus wants to be hanging blacks from trees, and Democrat Union partisans marched through the streets of Madison claiming Scott Walker was Adolf Hitler.

Seriously man; to pretend that one side has some sort of monopoly on hyperbole is just ridiculous.

Also, I like how you imply some sort of "missing nuance" regarding GOP attitudes towards muslims (Ridiculous) and then just casually smear "Sunday schools" writ large. Christianity raises all sorts of dangerous terrorists....who work day jobs, have families, and instill fear by exercising their democratic rights. The horror.....the horror.....

Quote:

Appropriate education is based on facts and evidence, not on willful ignorance or fear.
Willful ignorance being like the notion that electing a President will be the catalytic moment when the oceans stop rising and children start learning and love exists without the taint of Martian Republicans? And fear mongering being Tea Party Christianists seeking to hang blacks from trees, evidenced by the fact that they cut a measly $7 billion dollars from FY 2012?

Quote:

It would be nice if you were able to say something meaningful instead of posting nasty right wing propaganda.
Quoted for cognitive dissonance.

ohreally 09-12-2011 01:55 AM

Re: God Bless America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
[QUOTE=AemJeff;225427]
Quote:

Originally Posted by ohreally (Post 225426)
String theory seems a lot more complex than quantum mechanics. Whether it's generated empirically useful models notwithstanding, I'd say it counts as "modern physics."

Perhaps, but string theory is no more relevant to the general population than Iwasawa theory or Langlands program. No one needs to make decisions based on their understanding of M-theory. So that kind of complexity is pretty much irrelevant to the discussion. Much of the public discussion in science today involves no complexity whatsoever. In fact the entire fields of biology and economics are entirely devoid of conceptual complexity. Please name any principle in biology or economics that is not entirely trivial to understand.

testostyrannical 09-12-2011 02:17 AM

Re: God Bless America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Collective madness was what it felt like to me too, and I was in uniform at the time.

sugarkang 09-12-2011 03:29 AM

Re: God Bless America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jimM47 (Post 225343)
John McWhorter and Glenn Loury each appearing twice in one week. Let this be a model for all weeks to come.

Yeah, really. Even once a week would be good.

Sulla the Dictator 09-12-2011 03:30 AM

Re: God Bless America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
The error that liberals make is to assume their arguments are simply defeated because of "framing", or sloganeering. This leads to a false sense of security; policy positions that are unquestioned because the elites doubt the ability of the polity to legitimately judge them creates a sclerotic political culture in their own ranks. There is no dynamism in the ranks of the left, it seems to be a lockstep ideological formulation.

The right is filled with conflict. There are people who will criticize or question the positions of any single faction, all the time. The SS imbroglio is a good example at the moment. Tea Party types, Paulites, clash with social conservatives and the establishment. This creates a more vibrant political culture among both leadership and activists.

I rarely see liberals argue over first principles; just what is politically possible. There is no re-evaluation of entitlements; no discussion on the obligations of the poor and the middle class as a legitimate exercise in building the community they want to force on the public, bankrolled primarily by the rich of course but involving everyone, which used to be a staple of left wing political discourse from 1932 to 1990.

This is a sign of intellectual decay. Of course entitlements need to be re-evaluated in an age where people live to be 80 years old. Yet Pelosi's plan for Medicare is....Medicare. No problems there.

harkin 09-12-2011 03:34 AM

Re: God Bless America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quote:

This fixation on Krugman's effigy remarks seems to be pretty off topic to his politicized op ed today.
Off-topic is what they do when they have no argument. They are actually trying to say Krugman didn't say it was OK to burn Liebermann in effigy. Guess they have limited reading comprehension because Krugman was forced by the Times to issue a clarification that he was not promoting actual violence against the senator.

Feel free to attack the other examples of Krugman's deranged hate, lies and hypocrisy. Thankfully his cavalcade of self-destruction is cached.


"About time" on Obama's plan to shift ownership of another half trillion while ensuring the public sector salaries/benefits get propped up again on the backs of taxpayers? Unreal.

Also, not enough links so here's one:

The Great African-American Depression

"Since February 2009, the month before the Democratic stimulus became law, the overall economy has lost 1.7 million jobs. Contrary to promises by Democrats in Congress, the President and his economic advisors, and Keynesian economists of all political persuasions, the unemployment rate jumped to 9.4% in May 2009, and with the exception of February and March of this year, has been 9.0% or higher ever since.

No group has suffered more than individuals within the black community. Nearly 400,000 fewer blacks are employed today than in February 2009, and their unemployment rate has shot up a gut-wrenching 3.1 percentage points to 16.7%........

........The comparison would look even worse except that black participation rates have fallen to 60.4% from 63.1%. If participation rates had stayed where they were, black unemployment rate today would stand at 18.8%.

Even worse, black teenage unemployment now stands at an unconscionable 46.5%. That’s right, nearly half of all black teenagers seeking employment do not have a job."


Change You Can Believe In!

harkin 09-12-2011 03:50 AM

Re: God Bless America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator (Post 225435)
The error that liberals make is to assume their arguments are simply defeated because of "framing", or sloganeering. This leads to a false sense of security; policy positions that are unquestioned because the elites doubt the ability of the polity to legitimately judge them creates a sclerotic political culture in their own ranks. There is no dynamism in the ranks of the left, it seems to be a lockstep ideological formulation.

You mean the reason Solyndra cratered, failing to live up to Obama's promise that it was "leading the way toward a brighter, more prosperous future" wasn't because his staff didn't do simple homework on its business plan but because they didn't make President Post Office give enough speeches promoting it?

Maybe instead of speeches he could have at least stopped his political cronies from putting the taxpayers at the back of the line regarding bankruptcy debt.

I'm not sure how many speeches you have to make to sell the stimulus plan when his own people calculated it worked out to about $278,000 per job.

Parallax 09-12-2011 05:39 AM

Re: God Bless America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Finally a non-economic issue to disagree about.

1. I found it ironic that in the first half Glen was wondering why Liberals are bad populists and the second half he described the reelection of George W. Bush as collective madness. I think he should listen more closely to what he says.

2. The people who attacked the WTC on 9/11 were evil and the US had to find them and kill them. Obama should be proud that was on his orders that Bin Laden is dead. This idea that they killed us, we killed them we are all killers is disgusting and masochistic. Again Glen can compare his views on this matter with the average American and see again why Liberals are doing badly.

3. John says if US had not invaded Iraq Saddam would be still in power and Glen disputes that. If I recall correctly this was Bob's position in a diavlog with Mickey a while back. But since then the idea that Saddam might have fallen by now had US not attacked has been proven wrong. The most important lesson of Arab spring has been that if the army is willing to kill scores of innocent people the dictator will stay. And Qaddafi was a soft eccentric compared to Saddam when it came to brutality. Qaddafi did not commit any genocides, he did not start two major wars with his neighbors and he certainly never used actual WMDs on civilian population.

Florian 09-12-2011 06:00 AM

Re: God Bless America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ohreally (Post 225398)
I completely fail to understand how our world of knowledge is becoming too complex and vast for people to grasp. Why "is becoming"? By virtually any measure I can think of, the world of Europe between the two wars was more complex than ours: ethnically, culturally, economically, scientifically, psychologically, politically, and artistically. It's a bizarre trope of our time that everything is so much more complex now. It is not. Things have always been complex. In fact, part of what makes our era so culturally impoverished is the urge to oversimplify everything.

Bingo. But I think Ocean is also right:

Quote:

The intellectual discussion seems to have become simplistic at many levels. Isn't that in part because a significant portion of the discussion has reverted to discussing basics that are being challenged by the willful ignorant?
Conservative and liberal-conservative critics have been saying this about democracy, above all about American democracy, since the 19th century--that it obliterates the distinction between opinion and truth, simplifies every issue and makes vox populi, vox dei. Experts, or simply the better educated citizens in a democracy, are odious to the majority and their representatives because knowledge, competence, science etc. are the only things that cannot be bought or faked. What is curious about contemporary American "conservatives" is that they no longer even seem to be aware how far their populism is from this older strain of conservatism.

sugarkang 09-12-2011 06:11 AM

Re: God Bless America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Florian (Post 225440)
Experts, or simply the better educated citizens in a democracy, are odious to the majority and their representatives because knowledge, competence, science etc. are the only things that cannot be bought or faked.

That's pretty optimistic.

Florian 09-12-2011 06:31 AM

Re: God Bless America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 225441)
That's pretty optimistic.

If you mean that knowledge, competence and science can be sold to the highest bidder and then used or misused for political purposes, I might agree. But no amount of money can buy the knowledge, competence and science that make someone an expert (I prefer the French word: "savant"). And I even doubt if a true expert, un vrai savant, would prostitute himself to political power for financial gain----with the possible exception of economists.

miceelf 09-12-2011 07:27 AM

Re: God Bless America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator (Post 225435)
The right is filled with conflict. There are people who will criticize or question the positions of any single faction, all the time. The SS imbroglio is a good example at the moment. Tea Party types, Paulites, clash with social conservatives and the establishment. This creates a more vibrant political culture among both leadership and activists.

I rarely see liberals argue over first principles; just what is politically possible. There is no re-evaluation of entitlements; no discussion on the obligations of the poor and the middle class as a legitimate exercise in building the community they want to force on the public, bankrolled primarily by the rich of course but involving everyone, which used to be a staple of left wing political discourse from 1932 to 1990.

Right. Conservatives have a vibrant and diverse set of ideas. That's why there's a lot of debate about whether cutting taxes will solve problems among Republicans.

Parallax 09-12-2011 08:41 AM

Re: God Bless America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by carkrueger (Post 225373)
Paul Krugman Is The Problem!!!

‘An Occasion for Shame’: NY Times‘ Paul Krugman Attacks ’Fake Heroes’ Bush, Giuliani in Stunning 9/11 Blog Post

He didn't have the guts to open a comment thread on the NYT's website - he's a bully and a coward.

This makes me sad. During the run up to the 2000 election Krugman decided to become a partisan hack. The result has been that he has lost credibility as a public figure. He writes drivel like this and then people ignore his mostly correct economic policy ideas as well ...

sugarkang 09-12-2011 08:45 AM

Re: God Bless America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator (Post 225435)
I rarely see liberals argue over first principles; just what is politically possible. There is no re-evaluation of entitlements; no discussion on the obligations of the poor and the middle class as a legitimate exercise in building the community they want to force on the public, bankrolled primarily by the rich of course but involving everyone, which used to be a staple of left wing political discourse from 1932 to 1990.

What happened in 1990?

Parallax 09-12-2011 08:48 AM

Re: God Bless America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 225409)
Do you understand that the first paragraph is written so that the message to progressives is something like this: Continue arguing what you want to argue and doing what you want to do, such as X, Y and Z, but don't delay passing the health care bill. Krugman isn't advocating that they do X, Y or Z. He's just saying that they shouldn't allow those things to prevent them from supporting health care.

So, yes, saying that he's inciting others to hang Lieberman in effigy is a misinterpretation, driven by bad faith or limited reading comprehension.

Your point of course is well taken in this instance but one can come up with different example. Take for instance the Gabby Giffords shooting, as soon as the news came out Krugman in his highly partisan fashion blamed tea partiers, GOP, Beck, Limbaugh and Sarah Palin. And I don't recall him apologizing since the shooter turned out to be a loner with a mental illness not a die hard conservative.

Parallax 09-12-2011 08:51 AM

Re: Collective Madness
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Florian (Post 225381)
Yes, I think that sums it up nicely. But far be it from me to suggest that you are mad.

Aww, how folksy and humble. And people think all liberals are obnoxious smug self-satisfied elitist douchebags.

Ocean 09-12-2011 08:56 AM

Re: God Bless America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ohreally (Post 225431)
In fact the entire fields of biology and economics are entirely devoid of conceptual complexity. Please name any principle in biology or economics that is not entirely trivial to understand.

We are deviating from the basic idea being discussed, or at least what I thought was the basic point. The average person, anyone you run into in the street, a store, a neighbor, a secretary, the pharmacy assistant, your cable guy wouldn't have the basic knowledge or have the time and interest to self educate so that they would understand and be able to make judgments about what's going on in various fields of science, for example, without relying on some authoritative source to digest it for them.

If you want proof, just look at how intelligent people like commenters here, fail to use quote functions correctly in this forum and keep misquoting their interlocutors. ;) It's complex, man.

Parallax 09-12-2011 09:00 AM

Re: Evolution theory has Gaps
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rcocean (Post 225376)
Evolution could be proven false

How? Evolution is a phenomenon that has been observed. The only complicating factor is that it was not observed when it happened.

Quote:

[Evolution] is not contrary to belief in God or being a Christian.
Says you. There are people out there who call themselves Christian and they do think it is contrary to their beliefs. Nobody has a problem with Christian Lights such as yourself.

Ocean 09-12-2011 09:01 AM

Re: God Bless America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Parallax (Post 225446)
Your point of course is well taken in this instance but one can come up with different example. Take for instance the Gabby Giffords shooting, as soon as the news came out Krugman in his highly partisan fashion blamed tea partiers, GOP, Beck, Limbaugh and Sarah Palin. And I don't recall him apologizing since the shooter turned out to be a loner with a mental illness not a die hard conservative.

We discussed this topic (the Arizona shooting) at the time. My take on it isn't very different from Krugman's except that there are a lot caveats to be made, and some understanding of mass psychology to get it.

But the bottom line on this thread is that people post stuff and draw conclusions that are inaccurate, and then even use sarcasm against those who get it right. It's been quite sickening in this forum, and in this thread you had an example of that.

Florian 09-12-2011 10:24 AM

Re: Collective Madness
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Parallax (Post 225447)
Aww, how folksy and humble. And people think all liberals are obnoxious smug self-satisfied elitist douchebags.

Thank you very much. But given the low quality of your posts and your constant vituperations about liberals, I will take your homage with a big grain of salt. Besides, I wasn't being folksy.

Parallax 09-12-2011 10:52 AM

Re: God Bless America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 225450)
But the bottom line on this thread is that people post stuff and draw conclusions that are inaccurate, and then even use sarcasm against those who get it right. It's been quite sickening in this forum, and in this thread you had an example of that.

I agree one should always set the record straight but my point was that one can find instances of Krugman's partisan hackery without resorting to slander.

badhatharry 09-12-2011 11:05 AM

Re: Glenn; The ultimate dirty elitist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hal Morris (Post 225420)
So the question becomes "What is the potential for oil production of the tar sands?" - a question for a geologist, assuming anyone can really answer it. If you know that, probably anyone with a general science background willing to look some things up and do some computation could calculate the amount of carbon released into the atmosphere. Hansen's expertise, for those willing to grant it, would be in what happens subsequently after the carbon is released.

point taken

Parallax 09-12-2011 11:05 AM

Re: Collective Madness
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Florian (Post 225451)
Thank you very much. But given the low quality of your posts and your constant vituperations about liberals, I will take your homage with a big grain of salt. Besides, I wasn't being folksy.

Constant vituperations?? Granted in general I am abrasive and I have not been kind to "liberals" but I don't use liberal as a synonym for left.

I would characterize my position as mostly anti-populist. Its most potent form at present is the tea party. I oppose the lunacy of hard money/austerity on economic side and Ron Paul's isolationist fantasies on foreign policy side.

DenvilleSteve 09-12-2011 11:20 AM

the reasons a WPA style jobs program would not work
 
the reason a WPA style jobs program will never happen is because government workers and contractors, the ones who would have to compete against the WPA workers, would object.

The reason WPA jobs would not help the economy is because the goods and services produced by the WPA workers would, almost by definition, not be goods and services in demand by consumers.

http://freemarket25.blogspot.com/201...overnment.html

badhatharry 09-12-2011 11:49 AM

Re: God Bless America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 225450)
We discussed this topic (the Arizona shooting) at the time. My take on it isn't very different from Krugman's except that there are a lot caveats to be made, and some understanding of mass psychology to get it.

But the bottom line on this thread is that people post stuff and draw conclusions that are inaccurate, and then even use sarcasm against those who get it right. It's been quite sickening in this forum, and in this thread you had an example of that.

What you are experiencing is pushback. You like to point to people on the right and give examples of their carelessly violent rhetoric. You say they created an atmosphere where violent acts such as the Tucson shootings would inevitably occur. We on the other side tried repeatedly to show you that things like crosshairs were hyperbolic and certainly didn't mean an encouragement to do harm.

But you all, in your infinite wisdom, refuse to see that what you call 'violent' exists in the same intensity and amount on your side and all of the handwringing about the exclusivity of violence on the right is ridiculous. Harkin's post addresses this symmetry and yet you still refuse to see and give us some references to mass psychology as though the left is immune to that.

You folks made it an issue and are now being hoisted on your own petard.

PS your reference to sickening posts and sarcasm coming from 'those people' falls into the same category of an absence of self awareness.

rcocean 09-12-2011 11:53 AM

Re: Evolution theory has Gaps
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Parallax (Post 225449)
How? Evolution is a phenomenon

Disagree. Its a theory - one with Gaps, big ones.

Quote:

There are people out there who call themselves Christian
Yep, can't deny that.

Parallax 09-12-2011 12:00 PM

Re: Evolution theory has Gaps
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rcocean (Post 225458)
Disagree. Its a theory - one with Gaps, big ones.

So antibiotic resistant bacteria don't exist? Or did God design them b/c he just wants to mess with us?

miceelf 09-12-2011 12:12 PM

Re: Evolution theory has Gaps
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Parallax (Post 225459)
So antibiotic resistant bacteria don't exist? Or did God design them b/c he just wants to mess with us?

It's obviously intended to test our faith. Duh!

And "Gaps" was capitalized, which means its for real, real.

Florian 09-12-2011 12:39 PM

Re: Collective Madness
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Parallax (Post 225455)
Constant vituperations?? Granted in general I am abrasive and I have not been kind to "liberals" but I don't use liberal as a synonym for left.

I would characterize my position as mostly anti-populist. Its most potent form at present is the tea party. I oppose the lunacy of hard money/austerity on economic side and Ron Paul's isolationist fantasies on foreign policy side.

I see..... That explains why I am a "liberal douchebag" for saying that whburgess is not as mad as he thinks I think he is. If calling someone a liberal douchebag isn't an example of populist rhetoric, what is? Do try to be less abrasive.

Ron Paul may be an idiot on economic matters, but I think his "isolationist fantasies" are preferable to the fantasies of G. W. Bush, which so far have added about 1 or 2? trillion dollars to the American national debt.

stephanie 09-12-2011 01:10 PM

Re: God Bless America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 225443)
Right. Conservatives have a vibrant and diverse set of ideas. That's why there's a lot of debate about whether cutting taxes will solve problems among Republicans.

I'm trying to swear off the boring liberal vs. conservative argument in the kind of blanket terms Sulla used. It's irritating, too easy for me to take personally, and basically impossible, given that if Sulla really believes what he said we see the world so differently that there's no ability to discuss it.

However, I'm intrigued by this notion that we should be arguing about first principles and that some people are. I guess the question would be what we consider first principles.

For example, I used to think that most Americans agreed on the goals and merely differed on how to get there. Sadly, I'm more cynical today, but saying we should be arguing on the first principles seems to me like arguing that we should be arguing over the basic goals -- I guess I'm interested in whether people really think that.

stephanie 09-12-2011 01:13 PM

Re: Evolution theory has Gaps
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 225460)
It's obviously intended to test our faith. Duh!

And "Gaps" was capitalized, which means its for real, real.

I thought he must mean the store.

miceelf 09-12-2011 01:16 PM

Re: God Bless America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanie (Post 225464)
For example, I used to think that most Americans agreed on the goals and merely differed on how to get there. Sadly, I'm more cynical today, but saying we should be arguing on the first principles seems to me like arguing that we should be arguing over the basic goals -- I guess I'm interested in whether people really think that.

By definition, likeminded groups don't argue about (their) first principles. And, as you note, it's kind of pointless to argue with someone who disagrees with you about them.

My only point was to demonstrate that Sulla is wrong in claiming that conservatives are arguing about first principles and liberals aren't. Conservatives are arguing about some liberal first principles (e.g., social safety net); they are NOT arguing about conservative first principles (e.g., the market is always right, lower taxes are always better).

To be more partisan and more succinct, I will share a ditty I picked up on another site, that I think sums up the Republican first principles:

Republicans moan and Republicans bitch;
the rich are too poor and the poor are too rich

badhatharry 09-12-2011 01:27 PM

Re: God Bless America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 225466)
(e.g., social safety net); they are NOT arguing about conservative first principles (e.g., the market is always right, lower taxes are always better).

It's not that the market is always right. The market is neither right or wrong. The market exists in every economy including communist economies. The question is what will allow the market to operate most efficiently and bear the best results for the most people.

popcorn_karate 09-12-2011 01:52 PM

Re: The real problem sneerers, Experts vs. Masses, and subsidizing hiring Vets.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by whburgess (Post 225359)
Tax credits for vets in combat

I had a little difficulty understanding this one.
Preferring vets in the job queue may not be 'obviously correct' in the sense that it would be incorrect to not do it, but it is certainly 'morally defensible.'

arguments on both sides, sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by whburgess (Post 225359)
I strongly disagree that the monetary payments and health benefits we give Vets in combat are compensation for putting their life on the line. There is no compensation for that. We pay them because they and their families need food, shelter, etc. They are not mercenaries. They are patriots fighting for their country.

if we are not paying them for doing their job, then why doesn't every patriotic american get the exact same pay and benefits from their patriotism? socialism for all self-identified patriots? "we pay them because they need food..."


Quote:

Originally Posted by whburgess (Post 225359)
We don't have to subsidize their preferential treatment in hiring in order to honor them.

we agree here.


Quote:

Originally Posted by whburgess (Post 225359)
But he seems to be saying that it is inappropriate to honor them in a way that shows them preference over those who don't serve because they've already been paid, and this just amounts to discrimination. I find that rather disagreeable.

why? you just said above that we don't have to subsidize preferential hiring. If service is about becoming a "first class citizen" that has all the opportunities while the dregs are left for the rest of the country, then yes, service will have been uncoupled from honor and patriotism.

rcocean 09-12-2011 02:15 PM

Re: Evolution theory has Gaps
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Parallax (Post 225459)
Or did God design them b/c he just wants to mess with us?

Amazing. Looks like I need to add to my ignore list.

stephanie 09-12-2011 02:15 PM

Re: God Bless America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 225466)
My only point was to demonstrate that Sulla is wrong in claiming that conservatives are arguing about first principles and liberals aren't.

Oh, yeah, I understood this. I was just wondering about the broader point.

popcorn_karate 09-12-2011 02:16 PM

Re: God Bless America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by carkrueger (Post 225373)
Paul Krugman Is The Problem!!!

‘An Occasion for Shame’: NY Times‘ Paul Krugman Attacks ’Fake Heroes’ Bush, Giuliani in Stunning 9/11 Blog Post

He didn't have the guts to open a comment thread on the NYT's website - he's a bully and a coward.

great article, thanks for the link! I rarely read Krugman, but after that refreshing honesty, I may have to.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:40 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.