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Bloggingheads 07-31-2011 01:34 PM

Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 

harkin 07-31-2011 02:28 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
Maj Hasan confers with an Iman who endorses violence and shouts "Allahu Akbar" as he guns down unarmed comrades:

The NYTimes writes seven articles on Hasan, only one mentions he is a muslim......a year after the attack.

Breivik goes on his murderous rampage to draw attention to his manifesto which contains one entry where he declares himself christian (and numerous entries where he condemns all religion):

The NYTimes article on the killings' lead sentence proclaims him a christian.

Tell me again about unbalanced depictions promoting hate.

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/6276/europeislam.png

ohcomeon 07-31-2011 02:35 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
I don't know about the "right wing" terrorist attacks in Europe but in the US they attack government buidings with day care centers and kill innocents, they attack and kill judges, they kill "abortion doctors" and bomb Planned Parenthood clinics. Where I live I am much more worried about "right wing Christians" with guns than the very few Muslims that live here.

Ms. Hemingway these people are not laughing stocks in much of Texas. They have serious influence in our politics, churches and schools. Take a look at our state textbook committee. You must live in a very lovely utopia where everyone shuns extremisim.

harkin 07-31-2011 02:48 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ohcomeon (Post 219433)
Where I live I am much more worried about "right wing Christians" with guns than the very few Muslims that live here.

First, consider the amount of terrorism there is in countries with large muslim populations, intolerance to other religions, honor killings, beheadings, gay hangings, setting the wife on fire, insult to islam killings etc.

Then, add up the number of people killed in the US by 'Christian' terrorists (remember, T McVeigh was an athiest) and compare it to the number of those killed here by muslim terrorists. Then consider the reality if we had 250 million muslims in this country.

Then be thankful about the 'very few' part of your statement.

eeeeeeeli 07-31-2011 02:58 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by harkin (Post 219431)
Maj Hasan confers with an Iman who endorses violence and shouts "Allahu Akbar" as he guns down unarmed comrades:

The NYTimes writes seven articles on Hasan, only one mentions he is a muslim......a year after the attack.

Give me a break. This from an article written 2 days after the attack:
Quote:

"The officials said a continuing search of Major Hasanís computer indicates that he had logged on to Web sites that celebrated radical Islamic ideologies and that he had exchanged e-mail messages with like-minded people, some possibly overseas."

opposable_crumbs 07-31-2011 03:05 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by harkin (Post 219439)
First, consider the amount of terrorism there is in countries with large muslim populations, intolerance to other religions, honor killings, beheadings, gay hangings, setting the wife on fire, insult to islam killings etc.

Those are not terrorist acts but crimes, and considering the USA has more prisoners than the rest of the world combined, it's hardly in a position to preach.

We have proven to be far more radical and dangerous in our foreign policies, than anything the Muslim world has produced,

opposable_crumbs 07-31-2011 03:06 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
I'm not sure Hassan counts under the traditional definition of a terrorist seeing as his target was military. Probably more akin to treason.

opposable_crumbs 07-31-2011 03:17 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
This diavlog was interesting, but seemed a little unstructured and seemed to go round in circles a little.

I think Mollie underplays the influence people like Geller and Gaffney have, and I would have liked to see her address more how they have provided a climate for Hermain Cain to say the most silly things, and the push for anti-sharia bills. In addition we have similarly discredited figures, like Walid Shoebat, addressing law enforcement on terrorism, a very worrying and dangerous situation.

One of the drivers for the Geller's of this world is a fealty for Israel. And the sight of right wing fascist groups in Europe hoisting the Star of David is startling to see, especially given the anti-semitic history of their movement.

ohcomeon 07-31-2011 03:44 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
(remember, T McVeigh was an athiest)

Timothy McVeigh was born and raised a Catholic. He was confirmed in a Christian church in the 80's. He did not calim to be an agnotic until 2001 - after he had been in prison several years. He never claimed to be an atheist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy...igious_beliefs

harkin 07-31-2011 03:45 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
Quote:

Give me a break. This from an article written 2 days after the attack:
You mean that note in the 10th freaking paragraph where they say he might have logged on to islamic websites???? LOL

Read the article again, they never say he is muslim. They do however before your snippet repeatedly manage to tell us how troubled he was, under tremendous pressure, suffering from emotional troubles and 'tensions'. The double standard when compared to the first sentence of the Breivik report is ridiculous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by opposable_crumbs (Post 219444)
Those are not terrorist acts but crimes, and considering the USA has more prisoners than the rest of the world combined, it's hardly in a position to preach.

We have proven to be far more radical and dangerous in our foreign policies, than anything the Muslim world has produced,

Then you agree with Jorn Holm, the security chief of Norway that the USA is "human-rights-violation-country number one"?

Quote:

I'm not sure Hassan counts under the traditional definition of a terrorist seeing as his target was military. Probably more akin to treason.
Appeasement is alive and well. I guess the odds are pretty high that the next incident at Ft Hood will be militant christians.

Good to see that the Times is maintaining their excellence....the word 'muslim' appears in paragraph nine. Oh yeah and they reference Maj Hasan but once again fail to note his religion.

And you better look up the definition of terrorist. If Hasan's actions weren't terrorism, nothing is.

harkin 07-31-2011 03:52 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ohcomeon (Post 219452)
Timothy McVeigh was born and raised a Catholic. He was confirmed in a Christian church in the 80's. He did not calim to be an agnotic until 2001 - after he had been in prison several years. He never claimed to be an atheist.

"ďOn Sunday mornings, the recruits were required to either attend church services or spend an hour cleaning the barracks. McVeigh, an agnostic, chose to clean the barracks until he found out that nobody took attendance at church. One Sunday, he signed up for church and just slipped away from the rest of his platoon. He found a field of tall grass and lay there, a little worried about snakes, but enjoying the opportunity to relax in solitude. The following Sunday, McVeigh signed up for church again. This time, he sneaked into an old abandoned barracks to kill time.Ē
Man, except for the difference of faith, this guy could be Maj Hasan's twin brother.

Yep, a guy who refused Christ as his savior and told friends before his crime "science is my religion", sounds like a textbook description of a christian.

opposable_crumbs 07-31-2011 03:56 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by harkin (Post 219453)
And you better look up the definition of terrorist. If Hasan's actions weren't terrorism, nothing is.

You seem to have included domestic abuse as terrorism. Let's be clear, Hassan attacked the military, if doing that is terrorism, them we better hope that the US isn't trying to get any Taliban member to flip sides.

apple 07-31-2011 04:19 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ohcomeon (Post 219452)
(remember, T McVeigh was an athiest)

Timothy McVeigh was born and raised a Catholic. He was confirmed in a Christian church in the 80's. He did not calim to be an agnotic until 2001 - after he had been in prison several years. He never claimed to be an atheist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy...igious_beliefs

Who cares what he was? The issue is that his religious beliefs did not inspire him to do what he did, and there is also nothing in the teachings of Jesus that can reasonable be interpreted to support violent acts. It's a different story with Muhammad, who for example, told his followers to murder anyone who "insults" him. People who blow up abortion clinics are acting in violation of Jesus' teachings, whereas the man who murdered Theo van Gogh for insulting Muhammad followed Muhammad's teachings to the letter.

apple 07-31-2011 04:23 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
17,527 deadly Islamic terrorist attacks since 9/11. The religion that leads fathers to want to murder their daughters.

What a wonderful, beautiful religion of peace. Anyone who opposes this religion must surely be a bigot and a racist, as the two diavloggers claim.

Wonderment 07-31-2011 04:36 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
Quote:

Who cares what he was? The issue is that his religious beliefs did not inspire him to do what he did, and there is also nothing in the teachings of Jesus that can reasonable be interpreted to support violent acts.
So 1500 years of war, pillage, conquest and rape in the name of Christian Europe was what, a misprint?

apple 07-31-2011 04:45 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 219458)
So 1500 years of war, pillage, conquest and rape in the name of Christian Europe was what, a misprint?

Show me the rapes that had religious motivations. My point was that Timothy McVeigh, Christian or atheist, definitely did not have religious motivations - quite unlike Islamist terror.

apple 07-31-2011 04:47 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
Claim: Most Muslims reject extremism.

Reality:

http://pewglobal.org/files/2010/12/2...slim-01-13.png

opposable_crumbs 07-31-2011 05:06 PM

Geller and Breivik
 
Turns out Pam Geller had previously published an email from Norway on her website, which shares Breivik's views and talks about stockpiling weapons.

Quote:

We are stockpiling and caching weapons, ammunition and equipment. This is going to happen fast.
She also comments on removing the author's name from the email to protect him from the authorities. I hope the authorities look into this.

dieter 07-31-2011 05:58 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by harkin (Post 219454)
Yep, a guy who refused Christ as his savior and told friends before his crime "science is my religion", sounds like a textbook description of a christian.

"accepting Christ as one's saviour" is heretical evangelical lingo. He was not excommunicated and therefore considered catholic and christian according to Catholicism.
He committed a mortal sin and should therefore have confessed directly to a priest to lessen the likelihood of being thrown into eternal hell or to reduce his time in purgatory. There is no "accept Christ and get out of jail free" card in Catholicism.

Doubts are no hindrance either. Doubting Thomas is a saint. Mother Theresa has already been beatified and is on the fast track towards sainthood, despite her lifelong doubts. Catholicism works, even if you don't believe in it.

Plus there are countless mass murdering heroes/terrorists among saints and the blessed and they are not going to be demoted because of modern sensibilities either. It all depends on whether the person at hand was struggling for a church approved cause.

Ocean 07-31-2011 06:29 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by opposable_crumbs (Post 219449)
This diavlog was interesting, but seemed a little unstructured and seemed to go round in circles a little.

I think Mollie underplays the influence people like Geller and Gaffney have, and I would have liked to see her address more how they have provided a climate for Hermain Cain to say the most silly things, and the push for anti-sharia bills. In addition we have similarly discredited figures, like Walid Shoebat, addressing law enforcement on terrorism, a very worrying and dangerous situation.

One of the drivers for the Geller's of this world is a fealty for Israel. And the sight of right wing fascist groups in Europe hoisting the Star of David is startling to see, especially given the anti-semitic history of their movement.


Mollie not only underplays the influence of Islamophobes, she wants more people like them in the general media. She doesn't think there's enough. The woman is out of her mind.

carkrueger 07-31-2011 06:48 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
"Itís easy to forget we are actively engaged in a war with radical Islam in Afghanistan and to a lesser extent Iraq. Every war is won by throttling the ideology that is behind that war. This was evident in WWII when we fought the ideology of Nazism and the Imperial Japanese. Americans have every right to be concerned about radical Islam and our media has conditioned us to ignore it ." M. Steyn

Major Nidal Hasan might have been stopped if our politically correct culture was not on overdrive to not offend Muslims.

apple 07-31-2011 07:38 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 219469)
Mollie not only underplays the influence of Islamophobes, she wants more people like them in the general media. She doesn't think there's enough. The woman is out of her mind.

Mollie calls "Islamophobes" and "bigots", but because she thinks they should be talked to, Ocean says that Mollie is "out of her mind". Don't dare to disagree with Ocean, she'll call you primitive, out of your mind, and God knows whatever words predominate in Northeastern communities of pseudo-intellectuals.

apple 07-31-2011 07:38 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by carkrueger (Post 219471)
Major Nidal Hasan might have been stopped if our politically correct culture was not on overdrive to not offend Muslims.

But the most important issue for leftists is not stopping terrorists, it's to make Muslims feel good.

Ocean 07-31-2011 07:54 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 219475)
Mollie calls "Islamophobes" and "bigots", but because she thinks they should be talked to, Ocean says that Mollie is "out of her mind". Don't dare to disagree with Ocean, she'll call you primitive, out of your mind, and God knows whatever words predominate in Northeastern communities of pseudo-intellectuals.

Apple, if you don't have anything substantive to say, refrain. I wasn't talking to you to start with.

Mollie indulges in double talk. She's trying to appear reasonable by conceding a couple of points but there's inconsistency since she's not willing to acknowledge that bigoted speech can only feed into more hatred. Whether that hatred leads to violence or not, it will depend on who takes it in. But the contribution is still there. That's all Wajahat is saying, but she can't admit that's the case. Perhaps it goes against party lines.

She (and you) may think that there hasn't been enough Islamophobic conversation, but there has been plenty. That's why I used the expression that she's out of her mind. What's wrong with that? Is that language too strong? How about you in passing making comments about me, what I say, and the pseudo-intellectuals?

All this hatred against Islam is a distraction from other more tangible problems that we're facing.

Apple, you and your likes love to come to this forum to insult, directly or indirectly other commenters. I'm not interested in playing that game.

apple 07-31-2011 08:03 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 219479)
Apple, if you don't have anything substantive to say, refrain. I wasn't talking to you to start with.

First of all, what I said was substantive, and the fact that you felt compelled to respond to it substantively demonstrates it. Secondly, I know you weren't talking to me (like opposable_crumbs wasn't talking to you), but I read something that I thought was incorrect, which I had to correct. Inconvenient perhaps, but I don't think you have the right to be outraged that I had the gall to respond to one of your posts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 219479)
She (and you) may think that there hasn't been enough Islamophobic conversation, but there has been plenty.

By your standards. Not by my standards. Even Herman Cain retreated on his promise not to appoint Muslims to his cabinet. By any standard, Mollie is on your side. She blasts critics of Islam as "Islamophobes" and bigots, she supports the Ground Zero Mosque. Her one heresy is the fact that she thinks that *some* of the "bigots" have legitimate concerns, so she does not join the apologists for Islam in vilifying and demonizing the "bigots". She actually thinks that the "bigots" should be talked to, not stigmatized. Apparently, that was too much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 219479)
That's why I used the expression that she's out of her mind. What's wrong with that? Is that language too strong? How about you in passing making comments about me, what I say, and the pseudo-intellectuals?

That was rather mild, especially compared with you basically calling her crazy. You didn't like it when I called you crazy for better reasons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 219479)
All this hatred against Islam is a distraction from other more tangible problems that we're facing.

No, Islam is actually a very tangible problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 219479)
Apple, you and your likes love to come to this forum to insult, directly or indirectly other commenters. I'm not interested in playing that game.

No, actually, *this* is an insult, and what you said about Mollie is an insult. But go ahead, you can insult me all you like, I really don't care. You are under no obligation to like me.

sugarkang 07-31-2011 08:21 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 219469)
Mollie not only underplays the influence of Islamophobes, she wants more people like them in the general media. She doesn't think there's enough. The woman is out of her mind.

Hmm. Mollie Ziegler Hemingway has been a guest on BHTV multiple times, but she's out of her mind? Her discussion with Wajahat Ali was civil, reasonable and substantive. I also appreciated Ali's points, but I side with Hemingway much more.

This might be a great time to self-reflect on how out-of-touch with reality one might be.

whburgess 07-31-2011 08:34 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 219476)
But the most important issue for leftists is not stopping terrorists, it's to make Muslims feel good.

Apple, do you really think all Muslims, particularly American Muslims are extremists? I wonder, because it seems to me you always use the term "Muslim" without qualifying it with 'radical Muslims" or "Muslim extremists" or "Islamic extremists".

sugarkang 07-31-2011 08:35 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 219481)
No, Islam is actually a very tangible problem.

WAY overbroad.

Sulla the Dictator 07-31-2011 08:39 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ohcomeon (Post 219433)
I don't know about the "right wing" terrorist attacks in Europe but in the US they attack government buidings with day care centers and kill innocents, they attack and kill judges, they kill "abortion doctors" and bomb Planned Parenthood clinics. Where I live I am much more worried about "right wing Christians" with guns than the very few Muslims that live here.

Then you're insane. You just described a tiny handful of events over twenty years, of which ONE was a significant terrorist act. Major Hassan probably killed more people in one day than the militant pro-life movement has killed since 1990, if I had to ballpark it.

Sulla the Dictator 07-31-2011 08:41 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 219469)
Mollie not only underplays the influence of Islamophobes, she wants more people like them in the general media. She doesn't think there's enough. The woman is out of her mind.

What is an Islamophobe?

whburgess 07-31-2011 08:42 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by harkin (Post 219431)
Maj Hasan confers with an Iman who endorses violence and shouts "Allahu Akbar" as he guns down unarmed comrades:

The NYTimes writes seven articles on Hasan, only one mentions he is a muslim......a year after the attack.

Breivik goes on his murderous rampage to draw attention to his manifesto which contains one entry where he declares himself christian (and numerous entries where he condemns all religion):

The NYTimes article on the killings' lead sentence proclaims him a christian.

Tell me again about unbalanced depictions promoting hate.

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/6276/europeislam.png

But wait--Christians are the dominant religious power in America--the 'progressive' thing to is to be biased against them so as to create a more level playing field for minority religions.

I really don't think the NYTimes can hurt Christians of course, so they are hardly 'victims' in the sense that any harm is done. But it does show that the folks over at the NYTimes don't even pretend they don't have an agenda anymore.

Sulla the Dictator 07-31-2011 08:44 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 219458)
So 1500 years of war, pillage, conquest and rape in the name of Christian Europe was what, a misprint?

Can you be more specific? Did the Venetians sack Byzantium in the "name of Christian Europe" because they were on Crusade? I'd like to know how this works.

apple 07-31-2011 08:45 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by whburgess (Post 219497)
Apple, do you really think all Muslims, particularly American Muslims are extremists?

It depends on what you mean by "Muslim" or "extremist".

Is everyone who calls himself a Muslim a Muslim? If so, then NO. But in my opinion, many people who call themselves Muslims are merely cultural Muslims, who are closer to deists than Muslims. I do not actually consider them Muslims.

And what is an extremist? Only terrorists? If so, then not all Muslims are extremists, because not all Muslims are terrorists, and only a minority of Muslims approve of terrorism. What about people who want to kill people who leave Islam? If we consider them extreme, then more than 80% of Egypt is extreme, and probably a majority of Muslims in the world. I actually don't think that these people should be called extreme, because they aren't - they are simply Muslims. Why should they be called extreme for doing exactly what their 'prophet' said?

Quote:

Originally Posted by whburgess (Post 219497)
I wonder, because it seems to me you always use the term "Muslim" without qualifying it with 'radical Muslims" or "Muslim extremists" or "Islamic extremists".

See the above. Islamic extremists are not actually extreme, by the standards of Islam, they are just Islamic.

I like Muslims who are as Islamic as China's current communist government is communist.

JonIrenicus 07-31-2011 08:48 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by opposable_crumbs (Post 219449)
This diavlog was interesting, but seemed a little unstructured and seemed to go round in circles a little.

I think Mollie underplays the influence people like Geller and Gaffney have, and I would have liked to see her address more how they have provided a climate for Hermain Cain to say the most silly things, and the push for anti-sharia bills. In addition we have similarly discredited figures, like Walid Shoebat, addressing law enforcement on terrorism, a very worrying and dangerous situation.

One of the drivers for the Geller's of this world is a fealty for Israel. And the sight of right wing fascist groups in Europe hoisting the Star of David is startling to see, especially given the anti-semitic history of their movement.


If we keep getting these sorts of attacks from people like Breivik, you'll have a point.

Until then, it all falls apart.

miceelf 07-31-2011 08:50 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator (Post 219503)
Then you're insane. You just described a tiny handful of events over twenty years, of which ONE was a significant terrorist act. Major Hassan probably killed more people in one day than the militant pro-life movement has killed since 1990, if I had to ballpark it.

But this is silly. You're saying that one really heinous act by one individual should count more than a wide variety of heinous acts by a variety of people who share a set of beliefs. That logic again makes it insane to worry about violence by Islamic extremists in Norway, because Breivik trumps them.

You're also pretending there wasn't a great deal of coordination among anti-abortion people, and that it wasn't part of a broader attempt to terrorize and intimidate.

Sulla the Dictator 07-31-2011 08:52 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 219459)
Show me the rapes that had religious motivations. My point was that Timothy McVeigh, Christian or atheist, definitely did not have religious motivations - quite unlike Islamist terror.

Its a necessary fiction to excuse Islamic radicals.

Sulla the Dictator 07-31-2011 08:56 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 219512)
But this is silly. You're saying that one really heinous act by one individual should count more than a wide variety of heinous acts by a variety of people who share a set of beliefs.

One act? There have been HUNDREDS of acts by a variety of people who share a set of beliefs. I'm saying that ONE act by ONE of them already outweighs the "counter example" (Generous term).

Quote:

That logic again makes it insane to worry about violence by Islamic extremists in Norway, because Breivik trumps them.
Breivik trumps 9/11? The English or Spanish subway bombings? The Bali bombings? Strange.

This event is so shocking because it is so UNLIKELY. It is uncommon. Even the most ardent leftist on this board probably assumed, when news started to trickle in about the attack, that it was a Jihadist action. Why? Because that is more common.

Quote:

You're also pretending there wasn't a great deal of coordination among anti-abortion people, and that it wasn't part of a broader attempt to terrorize and intimidate.
Yes, I am "pretending" that. Who ordered the execution of George Tiller, Bill O'Reilly?

Ocean 07-31-2011 08:59 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 219481)
First of all, what I said was substantive, and the fact that you felt compelled to respond to it substantively demonstrates it. Secondly, I know you weren't talking to me (like opposable_crumbs wasn't talking to you), but I read something that I thought was incorrect, which I had to correct. Inconvenient perhaps, but I don't think you have the right to be outraged that I had the gall to respond to one of your posts.

Your last sentence is unnecessary. You're using a pitiful tactic.


Quote:

By your standards. Not by my standards. Even Herman Cain retreated on his promise not to appoint Muslims to his cabinet. By any standard, Mollie is on your side. She blasts critics of Islam as "Islamophobes" and bigots, she supports the Ground Zero Mosque. Her one heresy is the fact that she thinks that *some* of the "bigots" have legitimate concerns, so she does not join the apologists for Islam in vilifying and demonizing the "bigots". She actually thinks that the "bigots" should be talked to, not stigmatized. Apparently, that was too much.
I can assure that Mollie's position isn't mine. Her way of framing the problem is very different. Her assumption is that there isn't enough Islamophobic talk. My position is that there's too much. She states that Islamophobia hasn't been discussed in the open. I've seen Islamophobia (anti-Muslim ideas) all over the media and the political spectrum. For god's sake, states are passing anti-sharia legislation as if Islam is hiding behind every rock and will take over this country any moment. Enough hysteria already!

Your repeated mistake is to call "apologist for Islam" anyone who condemns Islamophobia. I gather that you weren't around when we were discussing topics related to burqas and the treatment of women under fundamentalist Islam. Otherwise, you would know that it's possible to condemn anti-Muslim bigotry and the barbaric practices of fundamentalist Islam.

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That was rather mild, especially compared with you basically calling her crazy. You didn't like it when I called you crazy for better reasons.
So "out of one's mind" is out of bounds to qualify a crazy idea that a diavlogger presents?

Of course, I don't like when others call me crazy. But I don't get fainting spells because of it. I just corrected you and told you I wasn't crazy. What would you suggest someone else to do when they're called crazy?

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No, Islam is actually a very tangible problem.
Religious fundamentalism, including fundamentalist Islam is a problem. However, it is the obsession with the problem and the inability to see the difference between the acts of terrorists, the practices of radical fundamentalists and the vast majority of Muslims, that bothers many of us.

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No, actually, *this* is an insult, and what you said about Mollie is an insult. But go ahead, you can insult me all you like, I really don't care. You are under no obligation to like me.
When diavloggers come here to present their ideas it is to be expected that some people will disagree and will express that disagreement is whatever ways they see fit.

I'm not making general statements about Mollie's character, life or sympathies. I'm not directing at her any negative qualifications except to point out that one of the ideas she presented seemed off. At other times I have been more critical of commenters, and I may do the same in the future. It just so happens that this time, my observation was rather mild.

I actually have more of a problem when people like you start to hound other commenters. That's why I said that I wasn't talking to you. My comment was generic and intended to the general ideas that were being communicated in the diavlog.

miceelf 07-31-2011 08:59 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
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Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator (Post 219517)
Breivik trumps 9/11? The English or Spanish subway bombings? The Bali bombings? Strange.

No. He trumps anything Muslim extremists did in Norway.

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Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator (Post 219517)
Yes, I am "pretending" that. Who ordered the execution of George Tiller, Bill O'Reilly?

I didn't say anything about Bill O'Reilly.

apple 07-31-2011 09:04 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Breivik's Manifesto (Wajahat Ali & Mollie Ziegler Hemingway)
 
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Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 219499)
WAY overbroad.

I disagree.


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