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Bloggingheads 07-11-2011 01:19 AM

Lessons Learned: Terrorism and Politics (David Schanzer & Eli Lake)
 

apple 07-11-2011 01:37 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Terrorism and Politics (David Schanzer & Eli Lake)
 
Could Herman Cain spur Muslim radicalization? No, but I think the Koran could spur Muslim radicalization. I think the despicable behavior of the 'prophet' Muhammad could spur Muslim radicalization, as Muslims are taught to regard him as the best man who ever lived. I think Islamic theology, which preaches that the non-Islamic world is the Abode of War, could spur Muslim radicalization.

Funny how telling the truth about the Muslim religion sparks radicalization, but calling for gay people to be denied their equal rights does not spark gay radicalization. We don't see gay terrorists blowing up random civilians, because some political leader says that they should have no rights at all. I wonder why. Is it because they don't follow a religion of peace?

Peter Sibley 07-11-2011 02:31 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Terrorism and Politics (David Schanzer & Eli Lake)
 
Thank you, David and Eli, for an excellent discussion. I'm all for killing our enemies, but revisiting the Sept. 14 Authorization for the Use of Military Force resolution from time to time would be wise. As a general proposition, it is a healthy check to deny any administration the wartime language it seeks.

Simon Willard 07-12-2011 01:06 PM

Let's give Cheney credit ... for candor.
 
I've been waiting for someone to say this (and use the word "paladins").

Sulla the Dictator 07-13-2011 02:47 AM

Re: Lessons Learned: Terrorism and Politics (David Schanzer & Eli Lake)
 
I'm going to go on record and say that I do not believe, for a second, that any action by any individual American in the United States, or Gitmo, have any role in "creating" terrorism.

The Danish cartoons were a PRETEXT for violence. So was this koran burning. In the late 1930s, a disturbed Jewish man assassinated the German ambassador to France. Who honestly believes that THIS was the ACTUAL reason for Kristallnacht, rather than the excuse?

Peter Sibley 07-13-2011 08:02 AM

Re: Lessons Learned: Terrorism and Politics (David Schanzer & Eli Lake)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator (Post 216480)
I'm going to go on record and say that I do not believe, for a second, that any action by any individual American in the United States, or Gitmo, have any role in "creating" terrorism.

One hundred sixty-eight victims in OKC say you're not serious. Take just one city Tucson, for instance. Not a single American in Tucson egged on the 9/11 terrorists? Reading is fundamental.

apple 07-13-2011 11:55 AM

Re: Lessons Learned: Terrorism and Politics (David Schanzer & Eli Lake)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Sibley (Post 216488)
One hundred sixty-eight victims in OKC say you're not serious. Take just one city Tucson, for instance. Not a single American in Tucson egged on the 9/11 terrorists? Reading is fundamental.

It was perfectly clear what he meant, namely that American (or Israeli) actions in no way cause Islamic terrorism. They are an excuse for it. If you disagree, please tell me what actions of the Persian Empire, the Byzantine Empire, Christian North Africa and Visigothic Spain led to the Muslim attacks.

No, Muslims attacked because they follow an extremely aggressive religion that calls the non-Islamic world the Abode of War.

Sulla the Dictator 07-13-2011 01:59 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Terrorism and Politics (David Schanzer & Eli Lake)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Sibley (Post 216488)
One hundred sixty-eight victims in OKC say you're not serious.

Semantic games like this underscore how flimsy this "Western insensitivity causes terror" silliness from the left actually is. If you saw the diavlog, what I was referring to is clear. Maybe you should watch it before commenting.

sugarkang 07-13-2011 08:15 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Terrorism and Politics (David Schanzer & Eli Lake)
 
It looks like I've mistakenly supported the Libyan No-Fly Zone. NPR: Arab attitudes toward the U.S.

Quote:

The poll also found that the U.S.'s role in establishing a no-fly zone over Libya scored positively in Saudi Arabia and Lebanon, but it was the issue of lowest priority. The killing of Osama bin Laden, the poll found, "worsened attitudes toward the U.S."

As for how the Arab world feels about Obama, "most Arabs believe that the expectations President Obama created in his 2009 Cairo speech have not been met."

Hal Morris 07-15-2011 11:28 PM

Re: Lessons Learned: Terrorism and Politics (David Schanzer & Eli Lake)
 
Thanks to the diabloggers for an especially thought provoking conversation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator (Post 216507)
Semantic games like this underscore how flimsy this "Western insensitivity causes terror" silliness from the left actually is. If you saw the diavlog, what I was referring to is clear. Maybe you should watch it before commenting.

I don't believe 1 "liberal" in 100 would agree to such a stupid statement as "Western insensitivity causes terror". This is just idiotic Ann Coulter style right wing slander.

Now, do you think everything has exactly one cause? If there was a violent insane drunk in a bar waving a gun, and someone shouts "Hey you a**hole, I f**ed your sister" and the guy gets an enraged look and pulls the trigger, would you go screaming "liberal apologist" to me if I said to the shouter (who wasn't the one shot, as is likely to be the case), "That wasn't helpful".

You've seen the movie where the crazed guy is holding hostages and the hostage negotiator is talking to him real carefully. Would you call the negotiator a "liberal a**hole" because of that?

The particular people who slash random people's throats to prove they're serious and then fly planes into the WTC are beyond the efficacy of any sort of tactful interaction -- the only thing possible is to kill or disable them. But the Muslim population as a whole has divided attitudes and beliefs, and so can be like an individual who may go in more than one possible way.

There really are Muslims like some of those in Egypt, etc., who are just mad that there is no normal economic life in their country, and the main model for what they're looking for is the West, and plenty of them think about what Mohammad said maybe once a week, and the rest of the week are concerned about getting by somehow, or getting their kids education or whatever. If you read How to Break a Terrorist by Matthew Alexander, who got the head of Al Qaeda in Iraq tracked down and killed, he got to one guy by getting medical attention that his wife badly needed. That is clearly impossible in your cartoon world of uniformly woman-hating Muslim men.

Now, as to Schanzer and Lake's wondering where this growing hate and uniform lumping together of anything Muslim comes from? A great deal of where people get their ideas is not from anything you would recognize as even "new media"; it's stuff like emails that are designed to look like they happened to come from a friend of a friend.

I wrote a piece on the general phenomenon (one of several actually) called "My Not-Really Right-Wing Mom and her Adventures in Email-Land".

and a specific Muslim related example "RE: "Mass Muslim Marriage in Gaza 450 Grooms Wed GIRLS Under Ten In Gaza" and there are just scores of such emails out there including all the ones that "prove" Obama is Muslim.


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