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-   -   Commenter Court: The End(?) (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade) (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?t=6825)

Ocean 07-09-2011 11:42 AM

Re: Commenter Court: The End(?) (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Willard (Post 216031)
Actually, I was using the word Puritanical somewhat tongue-in-cheek, since it's a term often used as an insult by liberals. I'm not picking up on Puritanism in America. What I'm picking up on is an issue that splits the common conception of "liberal" or "enlightened".

It's probably unreasonable to claim that contemporary American culture is much influenced by the Puritans. The program of extending rights and dignity to historically disadvantaged people (women, colored, poor) is not Puritanical -- it's enlightened. It's also enlightened to respect privacy in human relationships, withhold judgment about what's proper, keep cops out of the bedroom, etc. That's where the split occurs. I didn't come with any answers; I'm just pointing out the split, as is my wont. And I'm musing on the Florian banning as a microcosm of the same split. I find this entertaining for the obvious reason that DSK is French and Florian lives in Paris.

Okay, I get that.

I don't know whether you would call it Puritanical or not, but there's a characteristic in this culture, perhaps also in Great Britain, of passing judgment on the personal, private life of others. I think it's easier to see that when you're from a different culture. It wouldn't be that noticeable from within.

badhatharry 07-09-2011 11:59 AM

Re: Commenter Court: The End(?) (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 216039)
I don't know whether you would call it Puritanical or not, but there's a characteristic in this culture, perhaps also in Great Britain, of passing judgment on the personal, private life of others. I think it's easier to see that when you're from a different culture. It wouldn't be that noticeable from within.

What makes you say this is a characteristic of only the US or Britian? It is a human characteristic and universal in one way or another throughout the species.

I know you don't read my comments, but that doesn't dissuade me from reading yours. This last just seems preposterous.

sugarkang 07-09-2011 12:06 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The End(?) (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 216042)
I know you don't read my comments, but that doesn't dissuade me from reading yours. This last just seems preposterous.

Heh, that makes two of us. There's something about the liberals in the Gang of 12 that makes them really, really angry. Complete tunnel vision. All the liberals that aren't in the gang seem a lot more reasonable. Has that circle been around consistently for the past few years?

Also, I wonder why so many of them have disappeared. This isn't all because of Eli Lake, is it?

miceelf 07-09-2011 12:12 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The End(?) (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 216044)
Also, I wonder why so many of them have disappeared. This isn't all because of Eli Lake, is it?

Well, I'm more or less a liberal but have stuck around, so I probably don't count, but I like Eli Lake, even if I often disagree with him. His diavlogs with Hurlburt are the bees knees. I WOULD like him to cut down on the gum, but we can't have everything we want.

sugarkang 07-09-2011 12:27 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The End(?) (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 216045)
Well, I'm more or less a liberal but have stuck around, so I probably don't count, but I like Eli Lake, even if I often disagree with him. His diavlogs with Hurlburt are the bees knees. I WOULD like him to cut down on the gum, but we can't have everything we want.

Yeah, but you're not in the Gang of 12 are you? I think Eli's gum was for smoking cessation? Could be wrong about that.

miceelf 07-09-2011 01:11 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The End(?) (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 216048)
Yeah, but you're not in the Gang of 12 are you? I think Eli's gum was for smoking cessation? Could be wrong about that.

Sorry, misread you there. I think you're right about smoking cessation, but geez, when he was a smoker, would he have had to smoke during the hour every couple of weeks he was on the diavlog?

AemJeff 07-09-2011 01:23 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The End(?) (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 216051)
Sorry, misread you there. I think you're right about smoking cessation, but geez, when he was a smoker, would he have had to smoke during the hour every couple of weeks he was on the diavlog?

You've never been a heavy smoker, I think; and we've certainly seen Eli smoking during his diavlogs.

graz 07-09-2011 01:57 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The End(?) (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 216044)
There's something about the liberals ... the liberals

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 215885)
my favorite liberal

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 215800)
libertarianism is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 215636)
Libertarians

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 215585)
As a libertarian, I think

.

chiwhisoxx 07-09-2011 06:49 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The End(?) (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by graz (Post 216057)
.

hey I think I see a pattern

badhatharry 07-09-2011 07:19 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The End(?) (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 216044)
Heh, that makes two of us. There's something about the liberals in the Gang of 12 that makes them really, really angry. Complete tunnel vision. All the liberals that aren't in the gang seem a lot more reasonable. Has that circle been around consistently for the past few years?

Not sure how this relates to my comment about Ocean's comment. I don't really pay much attention to any groups these folks may have formed except for acknowledging that I would never be a cherished member

Quote:

Also, I wonder why so many of them have disappeared. This isn't all because of Eli Lake, is it
Eli Lake? you really must be kidding. I think old uncle ebeneezer described it early in this thread. Some people are appalled at the way the demographics have changed and they just don't want to be associated with such a lowly crowd. It used to be so much better...and all of that. Whatever.

sugarkang 07-09-2011 07:23 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The End(?) (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 216076)
Not sure how this relates to my comment about Ocean's comment.

I've joined you on Ocean's ignore list. Just commiserating in the marginalization is all. It's weird how the liberals easily delete us from their existence, and yet libertarians are accused of utopianism. Well, I guess it's not "weird," but you know.

Quote:

I think old uncle ebeneezer described it early in this thread. Some people are appalled at the way the demographics have changed and they just don't want to be associated with such a lowly crowd. It used to be so much better...and all of that. Whatever.
Is it related to the size and shape of my skull? How many BBs or seeds do you think I can fit in here?

badhatharry 07-09-2011 07:35 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The End(?) (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 216077)
It's weird how the liberals easily delete us from their existence, and yet libertarians are accused of utopianism. Well, I guess it's not "weird," but you know.

They're just looking for an uplifting experience. We need to honor that.

graz 07-09-2011 07:36 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The End(?) (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 216077)
I've joined you on Ocean's ignore list. Just commiserating in the marginalization is all. It's weird how the liberals easily delete us from their existence, and yet libertarians are accused of utopianism. Well, I guess it's not "weird," but you know.

Talk amongst yourselves.

Ocean 07-09-2011 08:36 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The End(?) (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by graz (Post 216081)

Oh, graz, I've had all kinds of nuisances and little mishaps at home today and they've been piling up, but your video made me laugh wholeheartedly. I don't even know how it relates to this thread because I haven't been following in detail, but still it made me laugh. Thanks!

graz 07-09-2011 09:41 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The End(?) (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 216086)
Oh, graz, I've had all kinds of nuisances and little mishaps at home today and they've been piling up, but your video made me laugh wholeheartedly. I don't even know how it relates to this thread because I haven't been following in detail, but still it made me laugh. Thanks!

Glad I could help. I don't know if Linda + Babs will double your pleasure, but here goes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvIxO...e_gdata_player

Ocean 07-09-2011 10:20 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The End(?) (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by graz (Post 216089)
Glad I could help. I don't know if Linda + Babs will double your pleasure, but here goes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvIxO...e_gdata_player

"We're all in this estrogen boat together. For one woman to attack another woman is shameful!"

LOL!

If only...

stephanie 07-11-2011 03:22 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The End(?) (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 216039)
Okay, I get that.

I don't know whether you would call it Puritanical or not, but there's a characteristic in this culture, perhaps also in Great Britain, of passing judgment on the personal, private life of others. I think it's easier to see that when you're from a different culture. It wouldn't be that noticeable from within.

I wouldn't call it Puritanical, because the cultural roots are quite different, and people often mistakenly assume a direct connection.

This is just a minor nitpick, though -- I know "puritanical" has an independent meaning and I do know what people mean. I see a lot of the "make the private public" stuff that goes on today to have quite specific roots, though, one of which is fundamentalism and the evangelistic, public confessional culture. That's theologically distinct from Puritanism, even though the Puritans were into some things that might seem similar to us in light of a different sort of culture.

Ocean 07-11-2011 09:47 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The End(?) (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanie (Post 216297)
I wouldn't call it Puritanical, because the cultural roots are quite different, and people often mistakenly assume a direct connection.

This is just a minor nitpick, though -- I know "puritanical" has an independent meaning and I do know what people mean. I see a lot of the "make the private public" stuff that goes on today to have quite specific roots, though, one of which is fundamentalism and the evangelistic, public confessional culture. That's theologically distinct from Puritanism, even though the Puritans were into some things that might seem similar to us in light of a different sort of culture.

Okay, thank you.

popcorn_karate 07-13-2011 08:30 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The End(?) (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 215892)
Thank you. Me too.

Wonderment,

Pacifist, Not Doormat

so you went to the admins for a banning? seriously? I really thought better of you.

sad.

popcorn_karate 07-13-2011 08:34 PM

Re: The banishment of Florian / Francoamerican
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 215935)
We also should acknowledge that it is only those who are on the receiving end of incivility that can truly tell the gravity of the insult. The rest of us just aren't keeping track of each comment.

nah. i don't buy that. Unless there were things said in private messages i think we can all judge pretty well what the level of insults are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 215935)
I truly hope that Florian can come back and continue to contribute without putting others in difficult situations or getting in trouble for it.

and we can hope that the tender shrinking violets of the forum grow up, stop working the refs and participate like big boys and girls.

Ocean 07-13-2011 08:42 PM

Re: The banishment of Florian / Francoamerican
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by popcorn_karate (Post 216583)
nah. i don't buy that. Unless there were things said in private messages i think we can all judge pretty well what the level of insults are.



and we can hope that the tender shrinking violets of the forum grow up, stop working the refs and participate like big boys and girls.

I think your accusation is immature. You're judging without knowledge.

I had nothing to do with this reporting/banning. But I can be sensitive to the fact that some comments are reportable. That's why the function exists.

This is story of being a big boy or big girl sounds a lot like the kind of stuff that middle school bullies tell their victims. So, I wouldn't go for the high moral value of such statements.

Are you implying that Wonderment hasn't participated in this forum as a grown up? Are you kidding me?

popcorn_karate 07-14-2011 04:09 PM

Re: The banishment of Florian / Francoamerican
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 216589)
I think your accusation is immature. You're judging without knowledge.

i have the same knowledge as everyone else, unless, as i stated as a caveat before, there were things going on in private messages that we know nothing about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 216589)
I had nothing to do with this reporting/banning.

i do not recall implying that you did. i was disagreeing with the idea that only someone offended by a comment can judge the level of offensiveness.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 216589)
But I can be sensitive to the fact that some comments are reportable. That's why the function exists.

OK. I have not seen anything from Florian that rises to that level. calling someone "stupid" can be offensive, but it hardly seems ban-worthy.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 216589)
This is story of being a big boy or big girl sounds a lot like the kind of stuff that middle school bullies tell their victims. So, I wouldn't go for the high moral value of such statements.

if wonder feels like a middle school kid that was bullied, then telling him to "grow up" seems perfectly appropriate.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 216589)
Are you implying that Wonderment hasn't participated in this forum as a grown up? Are you kidding me?

if he got florian banned for calling him stupid, then no, he was not acting like a grown up in my opinion. That says nothing about his general participation in this forum which is, of course, quite impressive.



i'm pretty sure i've been called clueless, stupid, a racist, etc. etc. on this forum - i just don't see that any of that is anything but what you kind of expect on an internet forum and i don't think other people should be thrown off the site for expressing those opinions. and i have a selfish desire to be able to read the occasionally interesting florian rant.

anyway, I didn't mean to pick a fight with you.

Ocean 07-14-2011 08:44 PM

Re: The banishment of Florian / Francoamerican
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by popcorn_karate (Post 216712)
i have the same knowledge as everyone else, unless, as i stated as a caveat before, there were things going on in private messages that we know nothing about.

i do not recall implying that you did. i was disagreeing with the idea that only someone offended by a comment can judge the level of offensiveness.

Okay.


Quote:

OK. I have not seen anything from Florian that rises to that level. calling someone "stupid" can be offensive, but it hardly seems ban-worthy.
What I said is that I don't know what got Florian banned, and I don't like to speculate or question the role of other fellow commenters or pass judgments on them.

Quote:


if wonder feels like a middle school kid that was bullied, then telling him to "grow up" seems perfectly appropriate.
I made a comparison to bullying but it had nothing to do with Florian or Wonderment. Sorry to say it had to do with you. The comparison was that bullies try to get their victims not to report the harassment by telling them that they shouldn't act like babies, or that they should be big boys or girls.

And in case you're about to misunderstand me, I'm NOT saying that you're a bully. I'm saying that you are applying that logic of not reporting and taking it on upon yourself to endure whatever it is that is found to be inappropriate or reportable.

Quote:

if he got florian banned for calling him stupid, then no, he was not acting like a grown up in my opinion. That says nothing about his general participation in this forum which is, of course, quite impressive.
You're making quite a number of assumptions here. I don't know what got Florian banned, who made the decision or what was the precipitating event. I'd rather not speculate or place blame on other commenters.

Quote:

i'm pretty sure i've been called clueless, stupid, a racist, etc. etc. on this forum - i just don't see that any of that is anything but what you kind of expect on an internet forum and i don't think other people should be thrown off the site for expressing those opinions. and i have a selfish desire to be able to read the occasionally interesting florian rant.
I have learned that what bothers me may not bother others and vice versa. So I don't judge. If I had every detail of what happened I could give you an opinion as to how I would have reacted. Even if I disagreed, I can't blame someone else for having different sensibilities.

Quote:

anyway, I didn't mean to pick a fight with you.
Neither did I.


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