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Bloggingheads 02-18-2011 12:59 PM

The Week in Blog: Selling Pain (Bill Scher & Kristen Soltis)
 

bjkeefe 02-18-2011 03:10 PM

Walker on by
 
In the glib defense of Wisconsin's Republican governor Scott Walker's frenzy to strip collective bargaining rights from some public employees, I note that neither Kristin nor any of the rightbloggers she cites mentioned this: the key word is some. Note that while Walker and his cheering section are delighted to demonize teachers, and more nebulously, "government employees," Walker's attack on public employees' unions does not include, most prominently, the state trooper and police unions. (He needs the cops to frog-march the Democrats in the state legislature, apparently.)

I also did not hear any admission from Kristin (and I wish Bill had pointed this out) that this supposed budget crisis was manufactured by Walker himself as soon as he took office. Amazingly, his tax cuts did not solve all of the state problems. In fact, they caused this one.

bjkeefe 02-18-2011 03:27 PM

A note of appreciation (and a note of hilarity)
 
Thanks for saying this, Kristin. Let us hope you can persuade some of your comrades of this reality.

However, this made me laugh. Have you not been reading the WaPo for the past decade? Fred Hiatt's editorial board is far more often in alignment with the rightosphere than it is the left.

harkin 02-18-2011 05:07 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Selling Pain (Bill Scher & Kristen Soltis)
 
Best line so far from Matt Welch:

"We are witnessing the logical conclusion of the Democratic Party's philosophy, and it is this: Your tax dollars exist to make public sector unions happy. When we run out of other people's money to pay for those contracts and promises (most of which are negotiated outside of public view, often between union officials and the politicians that union officials helped elect), then we just need to raise taxes to cover a shortfall that is obviously Wall Street's fault. Anyone who doesn't agree is a bully, and might just bear an uncanny resemblance to Hitler."

So fun to see the democrats back to normal regarding hate speech and eliminationist rhetoric now that their false meme regarding Tucson was rejected by the American public.

The reason that the Governor excluded police and fire personnel from the bill for now is because if the cops and firefighters had shown the same blatant disregard for their jobs as the teachers did, chaos (on the order called for by Frances Fox Piven) may have ensued.

Looks like the citizens of Wisconsin aren't falling for the Mussolini/Hitler comparisons and agree with the governor. Imagine (I guess you don't have to, Bjk has already provided a source) teachers being asked to shoulder a portion of their share of the fiscal mismanagement of their state being characterized as 'demonizing' them - lol
Imagine asking public servants to pay a portion of their pay for retirement and medical that brings them in a bit closer to what private sector workers already recognize as reality and then being compared to Hitler....I guess it's not history teachers that are walking out on the kids.

Let's see.....dem representatives hiding in IL, union stooges and thugs being bussed in to protest, teachers walking off the job and protesting with accrued sick pay instead of waiting for a weekend, protesters trashing the capital by leaving behind all their union-supplied protest signage, the president's campaign group doing PR for the hate-mongers....and the president himself being a complete hypocrite on his civil discourse facade and taking the sides of his union benefactors.....

Change You Can Believe In!

Don Zeko 02-18-2011 05:13 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Selling Pain (Bill Scher & Kristen Soltis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by harkin (Post 198300)
Best line so far from Matt Welch:

"We are witnessing the logical conclusion of the Democratic Party's philosophy, and it is this: Your tax dollars exist to make public sector unions happy. When we run out of other people's money to pay for those contracts and promises (most of which are negotiated outside of public view, often between union officials and the politicians that union officials helped elect), then we just need to raise taxes to cover a shortfall that is obviously Wall Street's fault. Anyone who doesn't agree is a bully, and might just bear an uncanny resemblance to Hitler."

So fun to see the democrats back to normal regarding hate speech and eliminationist rhetoric now that their false meme regarding Tucson was rejected by the American public.

The reason that the Governor excluded police and fire personnel from the bill for now is because if the cops and firefighters had shown the same blatant disregard for their jobs as the teachers did, chaos (on the order called for by Frances Fox Piven) may have ensued.

Looks like the citizens of Wisconsin aren't falling for the Mussolini/Hitler comparisons and agree with the governor. Imagine (I guess you don't have to, Bjk has already provided a source) teachers being asked to shoulder a portion of their share of the fiscal mismanagement of their state being characterized as 'demonizing' them - lol
Imagine asking public servants to pay a portion of their pay for retirement and medical that brings them in a bit closer to what private sector workers already recognize as reality and then being compared to Hitler....I guess it's not history teachers that are walking out on the kids.

Let's see.....dem representatives hiding in IL, union stooges and thugs being bussed in to protest, teachers walking off the job and protesting with accrued sick pay instead of waiting for a weekend, protesters trashing the capital by leaving behind all their union-supplied protest signage, the president's campaign group doing PR for the hate-mongers....and the president himself being a complete hypocrite on his civil discourse facade and taking the sides of his union benefactors.....

Change You Can Believe In!

Shorter Harkin: peaceful democratic protest in a pluralistic system sucks. How dare interest groups exist that oppose my political beliefs?

Not4Navigation 02-18-2011 05:21 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Selling Pain (Bill Scher & Kristen Soltis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 198303)
Shorter Harkin: peaceful democratic protest in a pluralistic system sucks. How dare interest groups exist that oppose my political beliefs?

I seem to remember some here having a problem with TP protests. Were you one?

Starwatcher162536 02-18-2011 05:24 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Selling Pain (Bill Scher & Kristen Soltis)
 
You forgot the "Shorter Harkin: The sanctity of contractual obligations only applies when dealing with million dollar bonuses for investment bankers" part.

Don Zeko 02-18-2011 05:29 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Selling Pain (Bill Scher & Kristen Soltis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Not4Navigation (Post 198305)
I seem to remember some here having a problem with TP protests. Were you one?

Not with the legitimacy of their protests. I happen to think that they were wrong on practically everything, operationalize their political beliefs in ways that are violently at odds with their professed values, and were remarkably poorly informed about the issues they have opinions on, but that's not quite enough to hang a hypocrisy charge upon, now is it?

Don Zeko 02-18-2011 05:32 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Selling Pain (Bill Scher & Kristen Soltis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 (Post 198307)
You forgot the "Shorter Harkin: The sanctity of contractual obligations only applies when dealing with million dollar bonuses for investment bankers" part.

Very good point. Just in case anyone is unaware, can I re-iterate that governor Walker created Wisconsin's budget shortfall, that collective bargaining rights in the future have nothing to do with the deficit now, and that Walker is exempting employee unions that are sympathetic to Republican politicians from this union-busting bill. He's got balls, I'll give him that.

Ocean 02-18-2011 05:38 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Selling Pain (Bill Scher & Kristen Soltis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 198314)
He's got balls, I'll give him that.

I tend to think it's mostly face, not so much balls.

Not4Navigation 02-18-2011 06:43 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Selling Pain (Bill Scher & Kristen Soltis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 (Post 198307)
You forgot the "Shorter Harkin: The sanctity of contractual obligations only applies when dealing with million dollar bonuses for investment bankers" part.

Is there a contract involved here?

bkjazfan 02-18-2011 07:49 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Selling Pain (Bill Scher & Kristen Soltis)
 
In 1987 Lawrence Malkin wrote in his book "National Debt" of the deleteriousness of running large deficits and at that time the N.D. was 2,000,000,000 dollars. Now, it's 7 times that amount. Where to cut? For starters, bring home the 34,000 troops in Japan and the 57,000 troops in Germany.

carkrueger 02-18-2011 08:33 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Selling Pain (Bill Scher & Kristen Soltis)
 
I could not agree with you more. Thank you for the thoughtful post, it saves me the trouble.

Down with Public Sector Unions!

ohreally 02-18-2011 08:57 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Selling Pain (Bill Scher & Kristen Soltis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkjazfan (Post 198337)
In 1987 Lawrence Malkin wrote in his book "National Debt" of the deleteriousness of running large deficits and at that time the N.B. was 2,000,000,000 dollars. Now, it's 7 times that amount.


N.B. = N.D.?

000,000,000 = 000,000,000,000 ?

ohreally 02-18-2011 09:05 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Selling Pain (Bill Scher & Kristen Soltis)
 
High speed rail here means > 90mph. The French TGV typically averages 200mph. So if all goes well -- a big if -- the US will catch up with France'1978 in 20 years from now.

Sad to think that the next generation of American kids will have to be flown abroad to be shown what high tech, modern infrastructure looks like.

The only thing high speed in the Republican program is America's flight to banana republic status.

bkjazfan 02-18-2011 09:35 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Selling Pain (Bill Scher & Kristen Soltis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ohreally (Post 198348)
N.B. = N.D.?

000,000,000 = 000,000,000,000 ?

Clyde Prestowitz in his new book "The Betrayal of American Prosperity" gets into the reasons we don't have bullet trains like the ones I rode in during a stay in Japan over 40 years ago.

Spelling error. Using numbers instead of writing the word makes it appear larger. That's the first time I wrote a number with so many zeros.

Not4Navigation 02-18-2011 10:52 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Selling Pain (Bill Scher & Kristen Soltis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 198311)
Not with the legitimacy of their protests. I happen to think that they were wrong on practically everything, operationalize their political beliefs in ways that are violently at odds with their professed values, and were remarkably poorly informed about the issues they have opinions on, but that's not quite enough to hang a hypocrisy charge upon, now is it?

Why would I hang that on someone so eager to hang themself?

Don Zeko 02-18-2011 10:57 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Selling Pain (Bill Scher & Kristen Soltis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Not4Navigation (Post 198367)
Why would I hang that on someone so eager to hang themself?

If you can't tell the difference between expressing disagreements with a group of protesters and denying the legitimacy of their protest, then I'm not going to explain it to you.

Starwatcher162536 02-18-2011 11:13 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Selling Pain (Bill Scher & Kristen Soltis)
 
I do not know, but I suspect the non wage portion of their compensation was more firmly rooted then a gentlemen's agreement.

Not4Navigation 02-18-2011 11:31 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Selling Pain (Bill Scher & Kristen Soltis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 (Post 198372)
I do not know, but I suspect the non wage portion of their compensation was more firmly rooted then a gentlemen's agreement.

Shorter Starwatcher: "I do not know"

bjkeefe 02-18-2011 11:41 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Selling Pain (Bill Scher & Kristen Soltis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Not4Navigation (Post 198375)
Shorter Starwatcher: "I do not know"

So, it's your position that the benefits part of their compensation package was based on nothing more than a gentlemen's agreement?

Or don't you know?

chiwhisoxx 02-19-2011 12:24 AM

Re: The Week in Blog: Selling Pain (Bill Scher & Kristen Soltis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 198368)
If you can't tell the difference between expressing disagreements with a group of protesters and denying the legitimacy of their protest, then I'm not going to explain it to you.

I don't think questions of legitimacy are completely unfounded. I haven't read much about the legal side of this yet, but there's a significant difference between taking your own time to protest and intentionally blowing off your job to protest. There are other people in this equation, like the kids who now don't get to have school (although I'm sure they're thrilled) because their teachers are at a water park in Rockford. (and by the way, anyone from Illinois is going Rockford? really? that's not a place you want to spend time) I'm not saying this makes the protests illegitimate, but it seems like a significant difference either way.

badhatharry 02-19-2011 01:07 AM

Re: The Week in Blog: Selling Pain (Bill Scher & Kristen Soltis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 198314)
Very good point. Just in case anyone is unaware, can I re-iterate that governor Walker created Wisconsin's budget shortfall, that collective bargaining rights in the future have nothing to do with the deficit now, and that Walker is exempting employee unions that are sympathetic to Republican politicians from this union-busting bill. He's got balls, I'll give him that.

I think I'm beginning to figure out this www thingy. Here's how it works. Ezra Klein creates a narrative which is pleasing to people like you. Headline... Governor Walker Created Wisconsin's Budget Shortfall and everything falls into place for you in your liberal echochamber brain. Oh there go those nasty Tea Party Republicans again... financed by the Koch Brothers, trying to wring the necks of the middle class union workers of the world.And everyone will spread Ezra's mesaage far and wide. Just google governor Walker created Wisconsin's budget shortfall and you'll find a zillion articles all quoting... wait for it... Ezra Klein! What power!

But what do you say to this article published in April 2010 before Walker was elected which outlines a $10.9 billion pension funding shortfall. OOOPS!

Never mind, I realize the trauma it would cause you to admit you've been duped and manipulated by your idol, Ezra. Hopefully the people in Wisconsin aren't as gullible as you are.

Glib my ass.

bjkeefe 02-19-2011 01:09 AM

A different sense of Rick Scott
 
I'll admit I had trouble paying attention when Kristen was gushing her admiration for the new governor of Florida, but my recollection tells me that she (and whatever rightbloggers she may have cited) are out of step with quite a few other people. Like the Republicans in the Florida legislature, for example.

(Something to do with jobs, I think.)

graz 02-19-2011 01:09 AM

Re: The Week in Blog: Selling Pain (Bill Scher & Kristen Soltis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx (Post 198382)
... there's a significant difference between taking your own time to protest and intentionally blowing off your job to protest ...

It's as if you've never heard of a labor action? Maybe the teachers could have waited till summer vacation? Sure, it would have no effect on preventing the setbacks, but hey, that's when they have that cushy free time. No teachers that I know need to work summer jobs. They're Rockefellers' in waiting.

Quote:

There are other people in this equation, like the kids who now don't get to have school
Yes, think of the children!

Here's some like minded peeps you can harumph

with.

graz 02-19-2011 01:15 AM

Don't allow the facts to impede the narrative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 198390)
I think I'm beginning to figure out this www thingy.

You have yet to show any evidence.
Quote:

Glib my ass.
Still? Have you no shame? You have had your hat handed to you repeatedly.
That assertiveness training might need reconsideration.

Unit 02-19-2011 01:47 AM

Re: The Week in Blog: Selling Pain (Bill Scher & Kristen Soltis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 198390)
I think I'm beginning to figure out this www thingy. Here's how it works. Ezra Klein creates a narrative which is pleasing to people like you. Headline... Governor Walker Created Wisconsin's Budget Shortfall and everything falls into place for you in your liberal echochamber brain. Oh there go those nasty Tea Party Republicans again... financed by the Koch Brothers, trying to wring the necks of the middle class union workers of the world.And everyone will spread Ezra's mesaage far and wide. Just google governor Walker created Wisconsin's budget shortfall and you'll find a zillion articles all quoting... wait for it... Ezra Klein! What power!

But what do you say to this article published in April 2010 before Walker was elected which outlines a $10.9 billion pension funding shortfall. OOOPS!

Never mind, I realize the trauma it would cause you to admit you've been duped and manipulated by your idol, Ezra. Hopefully the people in Wisconsin aren't as gullible as you are.

Glib my ass.

Well in the meantime Ezra "Updated" his post.

bjkeefe 02-19-2011 01:47 AM

Re: Don't allow the facts to impede the narrative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by graz (Post 198393)
You have yet to show any evidence.

Still? Have you no shame? You have had your hat handed to you repeatedly.
That assertiveness training might need reconsideration.

Well -- inadvertently, of course -- she did get one thing right:

Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 198390)
Oh there go those nasty Tea Party Republicans again... financed by the Koch Brothers, trying to wring the necks of the middle class union workers of the world.

Sadly, yes!

(Confidential to glibhat: No Ezra Klein resources were used in constructing the above link or the post to which it connects.)

Don Zeko 02-19-2011 02:58 AM

Re: The Week in Blog: Selling Pain (Bill Scher & Kristen Soltis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Unit (Post 198398)
Well in the meantime Ezra "Updated" his post.

And in another thread on this topic, I recognized my error and retracted part of what I said before. Of course it's still the case that Governor Walker is doing this after cutting taxes on business, and that he's exempting other unions that happen to be his political allies, and that stripping collective bargaining rights from teachers unions will do absolutely nothing about the current budget shortfall.

chiwhisoxx 02-19-2011 03:33 AM

Re: A different sense of Rick Scott
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 198391)
I'll admit I had trouble paying attention when Kristen was gushing her admiration for the new governor of Florida, but my recollection tells me that she (and whatever rightbloggers she may have cited) are out of step with quite a few other people. Like the Republicans in the Florida legislature, for example.

(Something to do with jobs, I think.)

Yes, Rick Scott is so far out of step he was elected governor to a large state a few months ago.

bjkeefe 02-19-2011 04:32 AM

Re: A different sense of Rick Scott
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx (Post 198405)
Yes, Rick Scott is so far out of step he was elected governor to a large state a few months ago.

Let's not forget, first, that he spent $73 million to buy himself that job, at a times when all anyone had to do was claim to be a teabagger and hate Obama.

And let's also remember that he couldn't even buy himself a majority. And with "just under half of those who voted for him saying they did so with reservations, according to the exit surveys."

But, the main point is, "a few months ago" is not today. However high he never actually got, he's come down a ways since, due to being a bozo.

Not4Navigation 02-19-2011 09:20 AM

Re: The Week in Blog: Selling Pain (Bill Scher & Kristen Soltis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 198403)
And in another thread on this topic, I recognized my error and retracted part of what I said before. Of course it's still the case that Governor Walker is doing this after cutting taxes on business, and that he's exempting other unions that happen to be his political allies, and that stripping collective bargaining rights from teachers unions will do absolutely nothing about the current budget shortfall.

Another retraction forthcoming? There are 314 police and fire unions in Wisc. and 4 endorsed Walker while 300 endorsed his Democratic opponent.

You might want to stop working on that hole and instead dig deeper into the talking points handed you by your puppetmasters.

Not4Navigation 02-19-2011 09:24 AM

Re: The Week in Blog: Selling Pain (Bill Scher & Kristen Soltis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 198379)
So, it's your position that the benefits part of their compensation package was based on nothing more than a gentlemen's agreement?

Or don't you know?

Is this the same kind of deductive reasoning that had your SAT scores sending you to a school to learn how to cut hair?

bjkeefe 02-19-2011 10:29 AM

Re: The Week in Blog: Selling Pain (Bill Scher & Kristen Soltis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Not4Navigation (Post 198408)
Another retraction forthcoming? There are 314 police and fire unions in Wisc. and 4 endorsed Walker while 300 endorsed his Democratic opponent.

You might want to stop working on that hole and instead dig deeper into the talking points handed you by your puppetmasters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not4Navigation (Post 198409)
Is this the same kind of deductive reasoning that had your SAT scores sending you to a school to learn how to cut hair?

Oh, hello, 'fur! Been a while.

graz 02-19-2011 11:23 AM

Re: The Week in Blog: Selling Pain (Bill Scher & Kristen Soltis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 198412)
Oh, hello, 'fur! Been a while.

He's like a video game character that is repeatedly vanquished, only to return to life upon reboot. His avatar may change but his true colors shine.

Don Zeko 02-19-2011 11:42 AM

Re: The Week in Blog: Selling Pain (Bill Scher & Kristen Soltis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Not4Navigation (Post 198408)
Another retraction forthcoming?

Not for someone who can't be bothered to post a link before blathering on about my puppetmasters. Really, I can't figure out why you're still in this thread. Wouldn't it be more fun to go to the local high school and tell the teachers there that they are overpaid and lazy because they bend to government to their will with union thugs in person?

Ocean 02-19-2011 11:51 AM

Re: The Week in Blog: Selling Pain (Bill Scher & Kristen Soltis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by graz (Post 198416)
He's like a video game character that is repeatedly vanquished, only to return to life upon reboot. His avatar may change but his true colors shine.

Do you think it's like a software virus? It may have infected other commenters here. ;)

Unit 02-19-2011 12:18 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Selling Pain (Bill Scher & Kristen Soltis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 198403)
And in another thread on this topic, I recognized my error and retracted part of what I said before. Of course it's still the case that Governor Walker is doing this after cutting taxes on business, and that he's exempting other unions that happen to be his political allies, and that stripping collective bargaining rights from teachers unions will do absolutely nothing about the current budget shortfall.

Ok sorry, I didn't see the other thread. My feeling is that there is less support for teachers now after what happened with the stimulus. Most of that money went to the states who used it to keep their employees (teachers, administrators etc....) at the same pay level (or avoid furloughs, lay offs etc..). But these are exactly the people with the highest job security in the country. So a stimulus bill that was touted as needed to stop the wave of unemployment actually went to reinforce already strong positions.

Not4Navigation 02-19-2011 12:36 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Selling Pain (Bill Scher & Kristen Soltis)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 198418)
Not for someone who can't be bothered to post a link before blathering on about my puppetmasters. Really, I can't figure out why you're still in this thread. Wouldn't it be more fun to go to the local high school and tell the teachers there that they are overpaid and lazy because they bend to government to their will with union thugs in person?

If I provide a link, will admit your error, retract your errant statement, and apologize for twice attempting to put words in my mouth? Do you consider that argument tactic acceptable? I see you are not alone in that regard. The pack mentality here is very interesting. All you need are a few signs.

badhatharry 02-19-2011 12:53 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Selling Pain (Bill Scher & Kristen Soltis)
 
Just one question...has Joe Klein lost his mind?

Quote:

An election was held in Wisconsin last November. The Republicans won. In a democracy, there are consequences to elections and no one, not even the public employees unions, are exempt from that. There are no guarantees that labor contracts, including contracts governing the most basic rights of unions, can’t be renegotiated, or terminated for that matter. We hold elections to decide those basic parameters. And it seems to me that Governor Scott Walker’s basic requests are modest ones–asking public employees to contribute more to their pension and health care plans, though still far less than most private sector employees do. He is also trying to limit the unions’ abilities to negotiate work rules–and this is crucial when it comes to the more efficient operation of government in a difficult time.


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