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Bloggingheads 11-24-2010 04:03 PM

Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 

rcocean 11-24-2010 04:48 PM

Corby Kummer
 
Cave Man.

hamandcheese 11-24-2010 07:00 PM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
The anti-foodscience hysteria is what you get when you mix scientific illiteracy with a burgeoning countercultural fad. Fortunately fads are cyclic, and in this case mostly on the margins. That is, many people talk the talk when it comes to natural foods (often with the word "chemical" in the pejorative) while few actually walk the walk. Judging by the way people spend their money, nearly everybody loves food science as much as Katherine does, Jamie Oliver notwithstanding. Relatedly, with naturopathic fads, it seemed to peak with a mainstream cynicism of the medical establishment but with very little behavioral changes in what medicine people were willing to accept. The flu shot line still stretched around the block, despite anti-vaxers, and the same is true with the line up at McDonalds.

The myth of the non-decaying Big Mac.

Organic and so-called "natural" foods will become mainstream to the point where its no longer cool. This is approximately what happened with bottled water, and for similar reasons. Tap water was perceived as tampered with, fluoridated and scientifically monitored. The tide only began to turn when bottled water became a staple and thus an obvious fixture of the mass produced corporatocracy.

In Europe, where organics originated, this is already happening. GMO fear is still high in Europe and while many countries banned GMO crops from being cultivated, it seems to have plateaued. After significant delay Britain has successfully completed GMO trials and their future food policy is going to be anything but organic. And the EU and European commission continue to approve new crops. Furthermore, the naturopathic fad that accompanied organics in Europe is falling out of fashion fast. Homeopathy, for instance, has become something to satirize. Pseudo nutritional advice will increasingly become scrutinize and a subject of derision too. This is what my money is on and I give it at least a decade to fully turn around in western Europe, and probably a generation in the US because there the fad is still peaking.

Tara Davis 11-24-2010 07:12 PM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
I would never even consider drinking a can of Four Loko. Not because I fear either caffeine or alcohol (or think it's a problem to combine them), but rather because it's a 600-calorie drink which I'm told tastes really awful. I prefer beer and coffee.

But I still consider it an outrage than busybody nannies who think along the same lines as Mr. Kummer have chosen to ban it. How about we just let adults make their own decisions about what's best for their own lives, including what they do for recreation?

chamblee54 11-24-2010 07:54 PM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Don't listen to this when you are hungry.
chamblee54

ohreally 11-24-2010 08:26 PM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Mangu-Ward's gushing over food science is callow. Does she know that people in poor neighborhoods have no access to fresh produce but only to processed crap? And that, as a result, they die years earlier than the well-fed folks at Reason Mag? Obesity, diabetes, heart ailments, the list goes on.

But isn't it cute we can keep cranberry jello for 5 years?

And what about antibiotics in poultry and fish, and hormones everywhere? Isn't that great?

ohreally 11-24-2010 08:43 PM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hamandcheese (Post 189780)
... probably a generation in the US because there the fad is still peaking.

A generation? That's some fad! What about the "Useful Idiots for Monsanto" fad? How long will that one last?

badhatharry 11-24-2010 08:55 PM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hamandcheese (Post 189780)
Organic and so-called "natural" foods will become mainstream to the point where its no longer cool. This is approximately what happened with bottled water, and for similar reasons. Tap water was perceived as tampered with, fluoridated and scientifically monitored. The tide only began to turn when bottled water became a staple and thus an obvious fixture of the mass produced corporatocracy.

The fad of bottled water was accompanied by the myth that one had to consume 8 glasses of water a day and that if you felt thirsty you were already dangerously dehydrated. I had friends who wouldn't leave the house without their water. It was like they were going to be hiking in the Grand Canyon instead of driving to the mall.

Municipal water gets tested far more rigorously that bottled water. And then there are all those plastic bottles to deal with. What ever happened to common sense?

badhatharry 11-24-2010 08:57 PM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tara Davis (Post 189782)
But I still consider it an outrage than busybody nannies who think along the same lines as Mr. Kummer have chosen to ban it. How about we just let adults make their own decisions about what's best for their own lives, including what they do for recreation?

Unthinkable! The peeps just don't know what's good for them.

harkin 11-24-2010 08:59 PM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ohreally (Post 189801)
Mangu-Ward's gushing over food science is callow. Does she know that people in poor neighborhoods have no access to fresh produce but only to processed crap? And that, as a result, they die years earlier than the well-fed folks at Reason Mag? Obesity, diabetes, heart ailments, the list goes on.

I have worked on the road for over ten years now. Sometimes this work leads me to visit very rundown areas. Because I like fresh fruit for lunch and veggies with my dinner I have visited markets in poor neighborhoods (both rural and urban) in TX, IL, MN, MO, FL, OR, CO, CA.......all over the country, even in the Caribbean. I have yet to visit one that did not have fresh produce. If they are doing something that disguises 'processed crap' as fresh fruit and veggies they are doing it very well. The selection may not be as great as at a Nugget or a Gelson's but there's still plenty to choose from if someone seriously wants to eat healthy. Also - I'm a huge white corn fan and the sweetest ears I've found were from rural road stands.

rcocean 11-24-2010 08:59 PM

Kummer & Mangu-Ward stir up controversy
 
On Water and food

badhatharry 11-24-2010 09:01 PM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ohreally (Post 189801)
Mangu-Ward's gushing over food science is callow. Does she know that people in poor neighborhoods have no access to fresh produce but only to processed crap? And that, as a result, they die years earlier than the well-fed folks at Reason Mag? Obesity, diabetes, heart ailments, the list goes on.

But isn't it cute we can keep cranberry jello for 5 years?

And what about antibiotics in poultry and fish, and hormones everywhere? Isn't that great?

really? no access? Do these poor neighborhoods have tall barbed wire fences which prevent access to a grocery store on the outside? I had no idea! and I guess, neither do you.

badhatharry 11-24-2010 09:03 PM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by harkin (Post 189813)
I have worked on the road for over ten years now. Sometimes this work leads me to visit very rundown areas. Because I like fresh fruit for lunch and veggies with my dinner I have visited markets in poor neighborhoods (both rural and urban) in TX, IL, MN, MO, FL, OR, CO, CA.......all over the country, even in the Caribbean. I have yet to visit one that did not have fresh produce. If they are doing something that disguises 'processed crap' as fresh fruit and veggies they are doing it very well. The selection may not be as great as at a Nugget or a Gelson's but there's still plenty to choose from if someone seriously wants to eat healthy. Also - I'm a huge white corn fan and the sweetest ears I've found were from rural road stands.

well, you're just wrong.

bkjazfan 11-24-2010 09:06 PM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by harkin (Post 189813)
I have worked on the road for over ten years now. Sometimes this work leads me to visit very rundown areas. Because I like fresh fruit for lunch and veggies with my dinner I have visited markets in poor neighborhoods (both rural and urban) in TX, IL, MN, MO, FL, OR, CO, CA.......all over the country, even in the Caribbean. I have yet to visit one that did not have fresh produce. If they are doing something that disguises 'processed crap' as fresh fruit and veggies they are doing it very well. The selection may not be as great as at a Nugget or a Gelson's but there's still plenty to choose from if someone seriously wants to eat healthy. Also - I'm a huge white corn fan and the sweetest ears I've found were from rural road stands.

I have lived in a lower income areas for years now and there are fresh fruits and vegetables at the local markets. The selection may not be great but they are there and are less expensive than at the chic areas. I do notice it appears to be axiomatic that the lower the income scale the fatter the people and in the upper income areas the slimmer they are. The same goes for the amount of television viewing. Why that is I don't know.

John

badhatharry 11-24-2010 09:16 PM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkjazfan (Post 189817)
I have lived in a lower income areas for years now and there are fresh fruits and vegetables at the local markets. The selection may not be great but they are there and are less expensive than at the chic areas. I do notice it appears to be axiomatic that the lower the income scale the fatter the people and in the upper income areas the slimmer they are. The same goes for the amount of television viewing. Why that is I don't know.

John

well, the TV watching and being overweight are certainly related. Maybe when life seems bleak and hopeless, food is comforting.

ohreally 11-24-2010 09:38 PM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 189815)
really? no access? Do these poor neighborhoods have tall barbed wire fences which prevent access to a grocery store on the outside? I had no idea! and I guess, neither do you.

Smartassery gets you only so far, you know.

ohreally 11-24-2010 09:40 PM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkjazfan (Post 189817)
I have lived in a lower income areas for years now and there are fresh fruits and vegetables at the local markets.

Good for you. Now go to Camden, NJ, and tell me if you see local markets with fresh fruits and veggies that are accessible without a car. OK?

Ocean 11-24-2010 09:49 PM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Fun conversation about traditional and not so traditional food. It didn't make me hungry because I had already had dinner and I didn't find the foods they talked about particularly appetizing, except for the green bean casserole.

Libertarian thought as expressed by Katherine doesn't cease to surprise me. So, if a government agency, based on medical recommendations identifies a problem that can be improved with minimal implications and great benefits, it's still not good because "a group of people tell another group of people what to do"? Isn't that what happens all the times with rules, medical treatment, laws, etc.? We are not talking of some capricious demand, it's a public health recommendation to alter the way foods are prepared with salt to benefit the population.

In terms of bottled water versus tap water, I'm with the tap water crowd. However, as I remember water in NYC tasted better than in NJ. Ah, and that's been the case for years, well before the current governor (preemptying accusations of partisan lines).

This Thanksgiving I'm having seafood. Yum!

Romanized 11-24-2010 09:49 PM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ohreally (Post 189801)
Mangu-Ward's gushing over food science is callow. Does she know that people in poor neighborhoods have no access to fresh produce but only to processed crap? And that, as a result, they die years earlier than the well-fed folks at Reason Mag? Obesity, diabetes, heart ailments, the list goes on.

But isn't it cute we can keep cranberry jello for 5 years?

And what about antibiotics in poultry and fish, and hormones everywhere? Isn't that great?

They do have access to fresh foods. Your repeating a liberal misconception.

We had plenty of vegetables growing up. Many where fried and/or mixed with fat to make them taste better.

In the end think what want about the merits cranberry sauce. Reason and others simply object to the government telling folks what they can or can't consume.

hamandcheese 11-24-2010 10:03 PM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ohreally (Post 189801)
Mangu-Ward's gushing over food science is callow. Does she know that people in poor neighborhoods have no access to fresh produce but only to processed crap?

Processed =/= crap.

The reason you consider it "crap" is precisely because its what poor people eat. Lower classes have tainted regular, processed foods for you by giving them the image as being for the lower classes, when in actuality, as the Twinkie experiment showed, eating processed food is not inherently bad for you. Processing and preserving simply lowers costs for consumers. Some people like fresh veggies for the taste, but otherwise, compared to processed, frozen veggies, they're no more nutritious. Conclusion? You're paying a premium to prove to people and yourself just how good of a neighborhood you must live in.

Also no one is barring people in poor neighborhoods from buying fresh produce anyway. Theres less fresh produce cause theres less demand. In the past food took up half of an individuals income; now its under 10%. There's no reason poorer folk couldn't afford the premium as well, if only it afforded them benefits in return. But it doesn't so they don't.

Quote:

And that, as a result, they die years earlier than the well-fed folks at Reason Mag? Obesity, diabetes, heart ailments, the list goes on.
Where's your evidence for this? Are you sure this is a matter of diet type, and not a matter of life-style, quantity over quality, or access to things like advance medicine?

Quote:

But isn't it cute we can keep cranberry jello for 5 years?
And what about antibiotics in poultry and fish, and hormones everywhere? Isn't that great?
These are two entirely different things. Do you really think the alternative is no antibiotics at all? Or do you accept that it would be better if this subject were a little less ideological.

whburgess 11-24-2010 10:05 PM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkjazfan (Post 189817)
I have lived in a lower income areas for years now and there are fresh fruits and vegetables at the local markets. The selection may not be great but they are there and are less expensive than at the chic areas. I do notice it appears to be axiomatic that the lower the income scale the fatter the people and in the upper income areas the slimmer they are. The same goes for the amount of television viewing. Why that is I don't know.

John

I think lacking the self discipline necessary for acquiring a higher standard of living would certainly manifest itself in dietary habits as well. A lazy ass sitting on the couch watching tv all day is likely also to eat more and not take time to consider what he is eating or think about the results on his health.

AemJeff 11-24-2010 10:23 PM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 189815)
really? no access? Do these poor neighborhoods have tall barbed wire fences which prevent access to a grocery store on the outside? I had no idea! and I guess, neither do you.

Yeah, access. Most people in those neighborhoods have no car, and very little disposable income. That works even better than fences, in the long run.

bjkeefe 11-25-2010 12:52 AM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 189829)
Libertarian thought as expressed by Katherine doesn't cease to surprise me.

Heh, exactly. And ditto the comments in the thread from the usual glibertarian suspects. Their self-congratulations at their imagined self-reliance is always jaw-dropping, but on this of all evenings, not to know upon what an awesome foundation everything they know and everything they have rests, well, one really can only shake one's head.

Good thing none of them are racist, though (just ask them!). They just hate poor people. And everyone who wants to help them. Because socialismbigbrothernannystate!!!1!

And the media they consume tells them that's okay! That's the American Way!

Turkey Day. Have a happy one. Get your tryptophan while you can.

.
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And, for those literalists not yet at Piaget's Level 4, yeah, I know: THAT TRYPTOPHAN THING IS A MYTH!!!1!

ohreally 11-25-2010 01:28 AM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hamandcheese (Post 189833)
Also no one is barring people in poor neighborhoods from buying fresh produce anyway.

This is the kind of intellectual horseshit we have to put up with because Wright has to fill his heads with a noxious cast of libertarian adolescents (a pleonasm, I know) who know diddly squat about the real world and who attract the libertarian riffraff like flypaper.

So then we have to explain, in a soft voice so as not to hurt their tender feelings, that in Camden NJ no there ain't no fuckin' fresh produce to be had for the lucky duckies who call Waterfront South home. Plenty of bullets flying by, hookers galore, cheap crack aplenty, you name it. Fresh produce, not so much. And yes I know exactly what I'm talking about.

Mr Wright: are we done with libertarians? I wouldn't mind the clowns if we didn't live in "interesting times" but we do, and swatting libertarian flies gets tiresome. Thanks for listening.

Ken Davis 11-25-2010 02:30 AM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
There's a name for what ohreally is describing: food desert. We have one here in our town of a quarter mil. No grocers in or near the hood. We at the co-op and the sustainable communities groups set up organic community gardens where we can. A local judge at juvy and drug courts sentences minor offenders to hard labor in the garden.

Oh, you can get food in the desert, but the only RDA you'll get is of vitamin G (grease).

rubbernecking 11-25-2010 03:37 AM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Yup. Lot's-o-Libertarians lately. I'd like to put this in as uncritical and nonjudgmental a way as possible but most of their diavloguing is most accurately described as -- sorry -- sophomoric.

Does bh.tv believe that Libertarians are expressing an urgently needed and underrepresented voice in these "interesting times"? Please tell us if you've figured that Libertarians are the missing ingredient in our critical national discourses. Perhaps I'm missing something.

-- "gobble gobble gobble" --

badhatharry 11-25-2010 09:36 AM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ohreally (Post 189827)
Smartassery gets you only so far, you know.

I just got back to this and saw your response. I also saw the response to harkin's post. You said poor people have no access to fresh fruits and vegetables. If you want to be taken seriously, which it appears you do, you just can't say stuff like this. I know you won't agree with me, but I believe that in the US, the poorest of the poor have access to things the poor in other parts of the world have no concept of. I also believe that the poor in our country have the opportunity to eat well (healthily) if that's what they choose to do.

I mean if there are things to criticize, it would be helpful for me if you were a little more narrow in pointing to those things. You really are an interesting commenter and I'd like to get a better grasp of what you're about. It's easy to dismiss you when you make such broad characterizations.

Happy Thanksgiving!

badhatharry 11-25-2010 09:40 AM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rubbernecking (Post 189850)
Yup. Lot's-o-Libertarians lately. I'd like to put this in as uncritical and nonjudgmental a way as possible but most of their diavloguing is most accurately described as -- sorry -- sophomoric.

Does bh.tv believe that Libertarians are expressing an urgently needed and underrepresented voice in these "interesting times"? Please tell us if you've figured that Libertarians are the missing ingredient in our critical national discourses. Perhaps I'm missing something.

-- "gobble gobble gobble" --

I haven't listened to this episode, but I'd be interested in a more detailed description of the libertarian voice. Do you think it is always sophomoric? Do you think others are less sophomoric? Do you think that they represent such a minority that it isn't neccesary to air their views? Whose views would you like to hear more of?

Thanks! and Happy Thanksgiving!

bkjazfan 11-25-2010 09:44 AM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ohreally (Post 189828)
Good for you. Now go to Camden, NJ, and tell me if you see local markets with fresh fruits and veggies that are accessible without a car. OK?

I only speak from my experience of living in Los Angeles, Ca.

John

badhatharry 11-25-2010 09:58 AM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hamandcheese (Post 189833)
In the past food took up half of an individuals income; now its under 10%. There's no reason poorer folk couldn't afford the premium as well, if only it afforded them benefits in return. But it doesn't so they don't.

Geez! why talk about facts when you can mire yourself in the notion that the whole world is conspiring against the poor...middle class...muslims...union workers...people who eat Monsanto foods...people who farm next to Monsanto seeded farms...people who are affected by the Gulf oil spill...illegal immigrants...mine workers...people who drive Toyotas...apple cart vendors

The world should be just and fair and because it isn't, it sucks! The reason for the unfairness is that the rich want to subjugate the poor and have billions of slaves to do their bidding. That's why these GM foods are being developed!

Happy Thanksgiving!

badhatharry 11-25-2010 10:03 AM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by whburgess (Post 189834)
I think lacking the self discipline necessary for acquiring a higher standard of living would certainly manifest itself in dietary habits as well. A lazy ass sitting on the couch watching tv all day is likely also to eat more and not take time to consider what he is eating or think about the results on his health.

poorist! you can add that to the list of stuff you've already been called.

Happy Thanksgiving!

badhatharry 11-25-2010 10:15 AM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ohreally (Post 189828)
Good for you. Now go to Camden, NJ, and tell me if you see local markets with fresh fruits and veggies that are accessible without a car. OK?

How's about a bus?

Please don't tell me this is impossible. I grew up in Chicago and didn't learn to drive until I was 21. I rode the train or bus to work every day and took my little shopping cart with me to the grocery store which was about a mile from my apartment, even in the snow!!! I also wheeled it up three flights of stairs.

People can figure things out if they want to. You have no faith in people's resilience and ingenuity(which I daresay is a hallmark of today's liberal mindset).

AemJeff 11-25-2010 11:59 AM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 189867)
How's about a bus?

Please don't tell me this is impossible. I grew up in Chicago and didn't learn to drive until I was 21. I rode the train or bus to work every day and took my little shopping cart with me to the grocery store which was about a mile from my apartment, even in the snow!!! I also wheeled it up three flights of stairs.

People can figure things out if they want to. You have no faith in people's resilience and ingenuity(which I daresay is a hallmark of today's liberal mindset).

Where do you think the buses run in and out of Camden, Harry? Have you ever seen Rt 130 in New Jersey? I can recommend several liquor stores, and there's a fine collection of peep shows!

badhatharry 11-25-2010 12:14 PM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 189870)
Where do you think the buses run in and out of Camden, Harry? Have you ever seen Rt 130 in New Jersey? I can recommend several liquor stores, and there's a fine collection of peep shows!

There are peeps shows and liquor stores in every city, Jeff. Lots of cities have hit the skids and lots have come back. These are just the facts of life.
You should have seen the near north side of Chicago where Cabrini- Green was before the yuppies turned it into a paradise with lots of green grocers and no parking spots.

The only things I know about New Jersey are that Chris Christie is the governor and Bruce Springstein came from there. But here's a picture of the courthouse. It looks pretty nice to me. Maybe they should have saved all those govt. dollars and given some urban entrepreneurs tax breaks so they could do some rehab and maybe build some organic grocery stores.

http://www.kandg-pc.com/images/Proje...Courthouse.jpg

AemJeff 11-25-2010 12:33 PM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 189871)
There are peeps shows and liquor stores in every city, Jeff. Lots of cities have hit the skids and lots have come back. These are just the facts of life.
You should have seen the near north side of Chicago where Cabrini- Green was before the yuppies turned it into a paradise with lots of green grocers and no parking spots.

The only things I know about New Jersey is that Chris Christie is the governor and Bruce Springstein came from there. But here's a picture of the courthouse. It looks pretty nice to me. Maybe they should have saved all those govt. dollars and given some urban entrepreneurs tax breaks so they could do some rehab and maybe build some organic grocery stores.

http://www.kandg-pc.com/images/Proje...Courthouse.jpg

Harry, I live there (in a somewhat more pleasant neighborhood across the the river in Philadelphia, actually - we have several grocery stores!). I'm going to drive down US130 today on my way to my sister's for Thanksgiving dinner, I'm quite familiar with the area; and I assure you they don't sell groceries at the courthouse. That was awfully silly of you.

badhatharry 11-25-2010 12:46 PM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 189872)
Harry, I live there (in a somewhat more pleasant neighborhood across the the river in Philadelphia, actually - we have several grocery stores!). I'm going to drive down US130 today on my way to my sister's for Thanksgiving dinner, I'm quite familiar with the area; and I assure you they don't sell groceries at the courthouse. That was awfully silly of you.

I was actually in the process of adding to my last comment when I saw yours.

First, I didn't think they sold groceries at the courthouse. I think I'm sort of familiar with the way cities are laid out. The reason I linked the picture of the courthouse was to show that Camden isn't a complete hell hole.

Second and most important is what do you propose to solve the problem of people in the slums of Camden not being able to access green groceries?
If I were to concede the point that it is currently impossible for these people to access good food, I would next want to know what the solution is. I think I have stated what some of my glibertarian solutions are, but since you don't see it that way, I'd like to know what you see. There's got to be some better way.

Happy Thanksgiving! and no stopping at peep shows!

AemJeff 11-25-2010 12:53 PM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 189873)
I was actually in the process of adding to my last comment when I saw yours.

First, I didn't think they sold groceries at the courthouse. I think I'm sort of familiar with the way cities are laid out. The reason I linked the picture of the courthouse was to show that Camden isn't a complete hell hole.

Second and most important is what do you propose to solve the problem of people in the slums of Camden not being able to access green groceries?
If I were to concede the point that it is impossible for these people to access good food, I would next want to know what the solution is. I think I have stated what my solution is, but since you don't see it that way, I'd like to know what you see. There's got to be some better way.

Happy Thanksgiving! and no stopping at peep shows!

Happy Thanksgiving Harry!

Ken Davis 11-25-2010 02:38 PM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by whburgess (Post 189834)
I think lacking the self discipline necessary for acquiring a higher standard of living would certainly manifest itself in dietary habits as well. A lazy ass sitting on the couch watching tv all day is likely also to eat more and not take time to consider what he is eating or think about the results on his health.

It must be great to have achieved your level of self-satisfaction and assurance in your superiority over the lower classes.

badhatharry 11-25-2010 04:24 PM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Davis (Post 189876)
It must be great to have achieved your level of self-satisfaction and assurance in your superiority over the lower classes.

I agree that the comment you are refering to may be distasteful and not indicative of understanding the plight of the poor. But isn't this the kind of attitude neccessary to keep going when the wolf is at the door? Some people give up while most of us refuse to accept defeat. Everyone has a lazy ass lurking within, but we know we can't give in to it. Those who grow up in awful families with no one to give a good example are at huge disadvantage, but almost everyone can find it within themselves to strive to be better.

Have you ever seen The Pusuit of Happyness? This movie is the true story of a man who, against all odds, would not accept defeat.

Ken Davis 11-25-2010 09:36 PM

Re: Turkey Day Edition (Corby Kummer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 189878)
I agree that the comment you are refering to may be distasteful and not indicative of understanding the plight of the poor. But isn't this the kind of attitude neccessary to keep going when the wolf is at the door? Some people give up while most of us refuse to accept defeat. Everyone has a lazy ass lurking within, but we know we can't give in to it. Those who grow up in awful families with no one to give a good example are at huge disadvantage, but almost everyone can find it within themselves to strive to be better.

Have you ever seen The Pusuit of Happyness? This movie is the true story of a man who, against all odds, would not accept defeat.

If we were all clones of a heroic figure, we might all become heroes. But we all have differing capabilities. I see it as absurd to attribute poverty to a lack of initiative. We can always say to one another 'why aren't you doing better? You lack initiative'. Some have the capability to lift themselves from poverty. Others don't. If they did, they would. Seems plain to me.

We never exceed our capabilities. We can only expand them, if we are capable of doing that, and in my opinion, in my observation, neither do we perform to less than our capabilities. Do do so is clearly not in our best interest. If an individual does the wrong thing, it is because they didn't understand how to do the right thing. It is beyond their capabilities, at that point in their life. To intimate that this equates to a character flaw like laziness simply shows that one is not an attentive student of human nature, in my opinion.


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