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Bloggingheads 11-17-2010 06:37 PM

Exercises of Insanity (Adam Serwer & Michael Moynihan)
 

operative 11-17-2010 06:45 PM

Re: Exercises of Insanity (Adam Serwer & Michael Moynihan)
 
Hmm...a left wing guy and a liberaltarian complaining about Fox, and saying that MSNBC is more balanced than Fox (LOL!!!)

Ok guys, some facts:
MSNBC had NO conservative commentators on their election coverage. Fox had around 5 liberals. MSNBC's coverage team consisted of a group of highly partisan liberals, led by Olberann and Chris ("HAVE YOU BEEN HYPNOTIZED") Matthews, whereas Fox had Chris Wallace, who is widely respected (heck even Jon Stewart praised him).

In 2008, MSNBC ran 78% negative stories on McCain. Fox ran 49% negative on Obama.

So cut this nonsense about MSNBC being less biased than Fox, because you are utterly mistaken. MSNBC is for the left what liberals believe Fox is for the right. The problem is that this is a result of Fox derangement syndrome.

operative 11-17-2010 07:01 PM

Beck's Narrative
 
I do agree with Adam and Michael that Beck's narrative is far too simplistic, but then this is the flaw in trying to apply simple narratives to history--this is, in other words, no different than the flaw with Howard Zinn's despicable body of pseudo-history.

bkjazfan 11-17-2010 07:04 PM

Re: Exercises of Insanity (Adam Serwer & Michael Moynihan)
 
I guess I'm going to have to get cable tv. How else am I ging to keep up with all the attention on BHTV paid to Fox and MSNBC? Also, do I have to listen to Hannity and Limbaugh on talk radio? I never knew these cable stations and talk show hosts were so influential and important.

John

sirfith 11-17-2010 07:13 PM

Re: Exercises of Insanity (Adam Serwer & Michael Moynihan)
 
[QUOTE=operative;188807]Hmm...a left wing guy and a liberaltarian complaining about Fox, and saying that MSNBC is more balanced than Fox (LOL!!!)
Maybe he should read his own site
And the Award for Most Sanctimonious Non-Apology of the Week Goes To...
Rachel Maddow.


I love this quote that covers Adam Serwer.
Quote:

I’m pretty sure Greg Sargent lets Adam Serwer blog at his place so he can look smart and reasonable by comparison. It’s a low barrier but it seems to work for them, so there’s that.

operative 11-17-2010 07:14 PM

Re: Exercises of Insanity (Adam Serwer & Michael Moynihan)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkjazfan (Post 188814)
I guess I'm going to have to get cable tv. How else am I ging to keep up with all the attention on BHTV paid to Fox and MSNBC? Also, do I have to listen to Hannity and Limbaugh on talk radio? I never knew these cable stations and talk show hosts were so influential and important.

John

I don't think they are, tbh. Limbaugh spent all day everyday whining about McCain during the primaries in 08, launching every possible attack against him, and McCain got the nomination anyway. I bet he supported Biff Hayworth in the primary, too.

The only time they actually had a sway is with the collective insanity that was nominating Christine O'Donnell instead of Mike Castle--I think that would not have happened without Limbaugh, Palin, and DeMint.

nikkibong 11-17-2010 07:27 PM

would need Loko to get through this one...
 
glancing at the topic list:

Tea Party and racism, MSNBC versus Fox, the non-existent entity known as "Europe."

suggested alternate title for this one: Exercises Of Inanity.

net observer 11-17-2010 08:26 PM

Re: Exercises of Insanity (Adam Serwer & Michael Moynihan)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 188807)
Hmm...a left wing guy and a liberaltarian complaining about Fox, and saying that MSNBC is more balanced than Fox (LOL!!!)...

I was under the impression that Moynihan did think MSNBC was more or less the equivalent of Fox. While I don't think that, it's a moot point either way.

Both Fox and MSNBC are aimed at specific corners of the political spectrum. That's like saying we need air to breathe. So what? If you know you're looking at a quasi-propaganda machine just take it for what it's worth. Thankfully, in the age of the Internet, we have a ton of alternative news sources. Use the amalgam to get closer to the truth. Much of the rest is academic conversation.

ohreally 11-17-2010 08:47 PM

Re: Exercises of Insanity (Adam Serwer & Michael Moynihan)
 
Moynihan's smug complacency about race is a bit hard to take. So "We're OK on race matters" he asserts with confidence. Really? We don't have race riots in America for one simple reason: everyone who could riot is in prison. Yes Europe has serious ethnic problems (mostly socio-economic problems in fact) but Europe's solution is not to lock up all nonwhites. Ethnic minorities are 10 times more likely to be locked up in the US than in Europe. (I know, I know, that's because they break the law -- I guess, in Europe they just don't -- and it's got nothing to do with race... blah blah.)

As a good libertarian, Moynihan seems strangely indifferent to the insane rate of incarceration in this land of liberty. So yes "We're doing OK." Perhaps Europe can learn from us and lock up every Muslim kid. Because "we're doing OK."

operative 11-17-2010 08:53 PM

Re: Exercises of Insanity (Adam Serwer & Michael Moynihan)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ohreally (Post 188852)
Moynihan's smug complacency about race is a bit hard to take. So "We're OK on race matters" he asserts with confidence. Really? We don't have race riots in America for one simple reason: everyone who could riot is in prison. Yes Europe has serious ethnic problems (mostly socio-economic problems in fact) but Europe's solution is not to lock up all nonwhites. Ethnic minorities are 10 times more likely to be locked up in the US than in Europe. (I know, I know, that's because they break the law -- I guess, in Europe they just don't

Well that and the fact that they give shorter sentences.

Africa Americans commit a disproportionate amount of crime in America. It makes sense that they'll be in prison disproportionately. Before you attempt to impute racism to my statement, I'll also note that there is not any sort of 'genetic' or otherwise 'racial' explanation of why this is.

I will give you that there is a disparity in executions for the same offense between whites and blacks, so we do need to start executing more white people.

Quote:

As a good libertarian, Moynihan seems strangely indifferent to the insane rate of incarceration in this land of liberty. So yes "We're doing OK." Perhaps Europe can learn from us and lock up every Muslim kid. Because "we're doing OK."
Because we just go around wantonly incarcerating people for the crime of being Muslim.

ohreally 11-17-2010 09:01 PM

Re: Exercises of Insanity (Adam Serwer & Michael Moynihan)
 
So we shouldn't be conspiracy theorists because inevitably that leads to "The Jews." This has to be one of the lamest arguments I've ever heard. I am not a conspiracy theorist because I believe most people in government are just too stupid to carry out any plot. Beliefs should be based on evaluation of truth conditions not of their possible consequences.

Not to mention that there has been a few conspiracies in the US and they should be acknowledged. If Kanye West blames AIDS on the government, he's probably way off base. But wasn't the Tuskegee experiment a reality: 40 years of conspiracy against black people. That doesn't make West correct but a certain amount of paranoia is justified in view of the historical record. Didn't the FBI operate conspiratorially for decades? Wasn't Watergate a government conspiracy?

ohreally 11-17-2010 09:14 PM

Re: Exercises of Insanity (Adam Serwer & Michael Moynihan)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 188853)
Africa Americans commit a disproportionate amount of crime in America. It makes sense that they'll be in prison disproportionately.

But that's not my point. Ethnic minorities in Europe are also in prison disproportionately for the same reasons. My point is that because here the likelihood of a black person going to prison is 10 times that of an ethnic minority in Europe, you end up with social calamities, such as having one third of young black men in or out of prison. And that's why you don't see race riots. Not because "We're doing OK on race matters."

bkjazfan 11-17-2010 09:39 PM

Re: Exercises of Insanity (Adam Serwer & Michael Moynihan)
 
Bob Hebert, columnist for the New York Times, yesterday called out for the black community to come together and solve the crisis with young black male high incarceration rates, the breakdown of their families, and other problems. Just a short while ago on BHTV we were arguing that there is no such thing as the black community. It looks like no one told Hebert about this development.

John

operative 11-17-2010 09:57 PM

Re: Exercises of Insanity (Adam Serwer & Michael Moynihan)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ohreally (Post 188856)
But that's not my point. Ethnic minorities in Europe are also in prison disproportionately for the same reasons. My point is that because here the likelihood of a black person going to prison is 10 times that of an ethnic minority in Europe, you end up with social calamities, such as having one third of young black men in or out of prison. And that's why you don't see race riots. Not because "We're doing OK on race matters."

Something tells me that whites are also less imprisoned in Europe. They have a different philosophy on incarceration, generally speaking. They have lighter sentences and focus more on 'rehabilitation.' If I'm not mistaken, the longest prison sentence in Sweden is 20 years.

I think it's far more productive to concentrate on ways to lower the crime rate than concentrating on the imprisonment.

ohreally 11-17-2010 10:30 PM

Re: Exercises of Insanity (Adam Serwer & Michael Moynihan)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 188859)
I think it's far more productive to concentrate on ways to lower the crime rate than concentrating on the imprisonment.

I couldn't agree more. But the fact is that American society has chosen to deal with the "race problem" not by creating conditions that lower crime rates but by locking up people of color. If that's how "we're doing OK on race matters" then I suggest we lock up every single black person. Then we'll do even better.

As the great writer (and notorious antisemite) Celine said: "To kill unemployment let's kill the unemployed."

The American prison system is the new plantation system. Something for all libertarians to love...

rcocean 11-17-2010 10:50 PM

Exercises in the Left wing echo chamber
 
Its like these guys had a talking points check list:

1) Attack Glenn Beck - check
2) Attack Tea party - Check
3) Attack Fox News -check
4) Attack some conservatives as "Insane" - check

It was like listening to Kieth Olbermann in stereo.

Added bonus: 2 SWPL middle-class social liberals discussing Malcolm X - wow, these guys are really down for the struggle. Bob really scored some points with his Liberal-Liberaltarian NYT/Atlantic base with this one.

operative 11-17-2010 10:55 PM

Re: Exercises of Insanity (Adam Serwer & Michael Moynihan)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ohreally (Post 188863)
I couldn't agree more. But the fact is that American society has chosen to deal with the "race problem" not by creating conditions that lower crime rates but by locking up people of color. If that's how "we're doing OK on race matters" then I suggest we lock up every single black person. Then we'll do even better.

As the great writer (and notorious antisemite) Celine said: "To kill unemployment let's kill the unemployed."

The American prison system is the new plantation system. Something for all libertarians to love...

I still think you're missing the point: we lock up more people than European countries. Not just blacks--whites too. As a reference: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/wo....12253738.html

AemJeff 11-17-2010 10:56 PM

Re: Exercises in the Left wing echo chamber
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rcocean (Post 188865)
Its like these guys had a talking points check list:

1) Attack Glenn Beck - check
2) Attack Tea party - Check
3) Attack Fox News -check
4) Attack some conservatives as "Insane" - check

It was like listening to Kieth Olbermann in stereo.

Added bonus: 2 SWPL middle-class social liberals discussing Malcolm X - wow, these guys are really down for the struggle. Bob really scored some points with his Liberal-Liberaltarian NYT/Atlantic base with this one.

It's just like rcocean has a talking points check list! It's like reading any of his last 30 posts.

harkin 11-17-2010 11:11 PM

Re: Exercises of Insanity (Adam Serwer & Michael Moynihan)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkjazfan (Post 188858)
Bob Hebert, columnist for the New York Times, yesterday called out for the black community to come together and solve the crisis with young black male high incarceration rates, the breakdown of their families, and other problems. Just a short while ago on BHTV we were arguing that there is no such thing as the black community. It looks like no one told Hebert about this development.

Just a short while ago the clique here at BhTV came to the brilliant conclusion that anyone saying the same things that Mr Herbert wrote on Monday was just trying to 'stick it to the blacks'.

Mr Herbert fails to admit that he's been complicit in the crimes against the black community commited by a political party that was more interested in perpetuatig a cycle of handouts for servitude, but hey maybe he is just starting to comprehend a problem that has been staring him in the face for fifty years.

Regarding the similarities between Fox and MSNBC....as has already been pointed out even by liberal commentators, Fox was much more fair and balanced on election night. Another thing in Fox's favor (ratings-wise) is that they are still rather a unique voice as opposed to viewers having the choice of CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS, PBS, etc if they want to hear left and far left-leaning news analysis but can't stomach the no-pretense-whatsoever of the bend over errrrrr lean forward channel.

Not4Navigation 11-17-2010 11:15 PM

Re: Exercises of Insanity (Adam Serwer & Michael Moynihan)
 
Moynihan works for Reason? I think they need more of him over there.

brucds 11-17-2010 11:46 PM

Re: Exercises of Insanity (Adam Serwer & Michael Moynihan)
 
To argue that MSNBC is an equal or greater purveyor of lies and bullshit than FOX is evidence of insanity or idiocy. NO ONE can document the amount of horsehit and hysteria that emanates from Beck and Hannity on MSNBC.

That's a fact. Shove it if you don't like it.

And that's not to mention the sick bastard Ailes, who runs the show.

db63 11-17-2010 11:59 PM

Re: Exercises of Insanity (Adam Serwer & Michael Moynihan)
 
Good stuff, but leave history to the historians. The KPD at several points united with the Nazis in an attempt to depose the Brüning government, which both the far right and far left deplored.

brucds 11-18-2010 12:10 AM

Re: Exercises of Insanity (Adam Serwer & Michael Moynihan)
 
"we need to start executing more white people"

Finally, at last, great God Almighty, operative and I agree on something. Let's start with white collar criminals and banksters...

JonIrenicus 11-18-2010 12:16 AM

Re: Exercises of Insanity (Adam Serwer & Michael Moynihan)
 
This was actually pretty good, especially towards the end where they were getting into some of past black figures aligned against racism and the different political perspectives they had. A time of a non monolithic black support of a party, then turned to one party support due to perceptions on who the bad guys were on race.

Wish there was more on Richard Wright, I was forced to read his book black boy for a class years ago and found it to be pretty enthralling.


Anyway, I think the current monolith of political thought hurts black people, whatever historical justifications may have led there. It hurts in part because many of the perceptions are flat out untrue or exaggerated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIUzL...eature=related

This was a stupid retarded statement made by a fool, but I can tell you for a fact that it is FAR from a rare thought about either Bush or republicans in general by many black people.



Perceptions that do not match reality bother me, but hey, so long blacks vote with liberals, what care is there that many of the perceptions about republicans are off.

rcocean 11-18-2010 12:41 AM

Re: Exercises of Insanity (Adam Serwer & Michael Moynihan)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by brucds (Post 188870)
To argue that MSNBC is an equal or greater purveyor of lies and bullshit than FOX is evidence of insanity or idiocy. NO ONE can document the amount of horsehit and hysteria that emanates from Beck and Hannity on MSNBC.

That's a fact. Shove it if you don't like it.

And that's not to mention the sick bastard Ailes, who runs the show.

I think Bob Wright needs to put you in a DV, Brucds - you sound just like Adam Serwer.

rcocean 11-18-2010 12:44 AM

Re: Exercises of Insanity (Adam Serwer & Michael Moynihan)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JonIrenicus (Post 188873)
This was actually pretty good, especially towards the end where they were getting into some of past black figures aligned against racism and the different political perspectives they had. A time of a non monolithic black support of a party, then turned to one party support due to perceptions on who the bad guys were on race.

Wish there was more on Richard Wright, I was forced to read his book black boy for a class years ago and found it to be pretty enthralling.


Anyway, I think the current monolith of political thought hurts black people, whatever historical justifications may have led there. It hurts in part because many of the perceptions are flat out untrue or exaggerated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIUzL...eature=related

This was a stupid retarded statement made by a fool, but I can tell you for a fact that it is FAR from a rare thought about either Bush or republicans in general by many black people.



Perceptions that do not match reality bother me, but hey, so long blacks vote with liberals, what care is there that many of the perceptions about republicans are off.

Jon, are you black? If not, its interesting that you think African-Americans are so mistaken in their perceptions - but its frankly irrelevant.

rcocean 11-18-2010 12:49 AM

Re: would need Loko to get through this one...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nikkibong (Post 188824)
glancing at the topic list:

Tea Party and racism, MSNBC versus Fox, the non-existent entity known as "Europe."

suggested alternate title for this one: Exercises Of Inanity.

Nikki,

You completely missed the value of this DV. I just learned that social liberals dislike Glenn Beck, Fox News, and the Tea Party. You can't get this kind of opinion anywhere else.

Well, maybe MSNBC, but that's it.

look 11-18-2010 01:22 AM

Re: Exercises of Insanity (Adam Serwer & Michael Moynihan)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by brucds (Post 188872)
"we need to start executing more white people"

Finally, at last, great God Almighty, operative and I agree on something. Let's start with white collar criminals and banksters...

First kill all the Boomers.

ohreally 11-18-2010 01:28 AM

Re: Exercises of Insanity (Adam Serwer & Michael Moynihan)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 188866)
I still think you're missing the point: we lock up more people than European countries. Not just blacks--whites too. As a reference: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/wo....12253738.html

No, I agree with you. My point was NOT that we lock up all blacks and give a pass to whites. We lock up everything that moves sideways for an eternity. (I was against locking up Martha Stewart.) But the consequence is that we end up committing the worst kind of social engineering in the black population by destroying the black family: just as WWI destroyed the family in France by killing or maiming half of all male bachelors, we are tearing apart the fabric of black society with our incarceration policy. Between the ghetto and the prison, the US has successfully recreated the plantation system. So when I hear, especially from a libertarian, "We've kicked the racism syndrome," I think of the Bourbon dynasty who'd forgotten nothing and learned nothing.

ohreally 11-18-2010 01:50 AM

Re: Exercises of Insanity (Adam Serwer & Michael Moynihan)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JonIrenicus (Post 188873)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIUzL...eature=related

This was a stupid retarded statement made by a fool, but I can tell you for a fact that it is FAR from a rare thought about either Bush or republicans in general by many black people.

There we go again. Poor little W unfairly maligned by an uppity black man. Look, I don't care for Kanye. The guy can't sing and he's killing rap. But give me a break about his dissing W. That sack of horseshit from Midland (er, Andover) had no qualms ordering the mass slaughter of hundreds of thousands of dark-skinned folks in a far-away land. And now we're supposed to go teary-eyed because His Excellency was insulted by a black rapper and that fucker whines about it in his toilet paper "memoir." Time to cool down that power worship surge of yours. Bush was the president of the US of A. Yes, but he was also racist scum who acted on his belief that his white ass tribe could lord it over the lesser beings crowding out the swamps of mankind. Look at Mike Meyers's horrified look when the Commander in Chief gets bitch slapped. Oh, those power challenging comedians! So brave, so transgressive.

JonIrenicus 11-18-2010 02:56 AM

Re: Exercises of Insanity (Adam Serwer & Michael Moynihan)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rcocean (Post 188878)
Jon, are you black?

yes

JonIrenicus 11-18-2010 03:03 AM

Re: Exercises of Insanity (Adam Serwer & Michael Moynihan)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ohreally (Post 188887)
There we go again. Poor little W unfairly maligned by an uppity black man. Look, I don't care for Kanye. The guy can't sing and he's killing rap. But give me a break about his dissing W. That sack of horseshit from Midland (er, Andover) had no qualms ordering the mass slaughter of hundreds of thousands of dark-skinned folks in a far-away land. And now we're supposed to go teary-eyed because His Excellency was insulted by a black rapper and that fucker whines about it in his toilet paper "memoir." Time to cool down that power worship surge of yours. Bush was the president of the US of A. Yes, but he was also racist scum who acted on his belief that his white ass tribe could lord it over the lesser beings crowding out the swamps of mankind. Look at Mike Meyers's horrified look when the Commander in Chief gets bitch slapped. Oh, those power challenging comedians! So brave, so transgressive.



It's not about Bush getting insulted, it's that there are plenty of black people who have views like that, and simply don't have the same stage. To a lesser degree I have heard things similarly negative about the republican party from members of my own family. There is an overriding sense that republicans are against black people over and above what is actually the case. It's why the black vote is such a monolith. It is NOT some purely rational accounting of down the line agreement with every liberal policy under the sun.

dieter 11-18-2010 03:06 AM

The discourse about supposedly worse "race relations" in europe is abdurd on its face
 
It is absurd to attest superior race relations to the US vs. Europe, when the very discourse and framing of the European immigration issue as a an issue of race would be unspeakable on this side of the pond. The casual conversations about race, whites, blacks, asians, etc. that are perfectly mainstream and normal in the US, including on Bloggingheads, would be categorized as extreme and vile racism in Europe.

This poses huge problems for those who try to explain american politics to european audiences. In a post presidential election debate, an austrian intellectual who has spent some time in the US, casually und unthinkingly talked about how race relations played into the election in a manner that would be perfectly acceptable and mainstream in the US. A female journalist, who didn't know much about the US, was absolutely shocked that he would introduce vile "race theories" into the debate. The professional US correspondents tried to diplomatically pacify the situation somewhat. They usually ignore the issue.

Most europeans have a Hollywood view of the United States. They assume that racism exists in the form of some rural rednecks and sheriffs being mean to the odd black guy who happens to stumble across their way. Europeans assume that almost no blacks live in the racist southern states.

The wider political implications, tensions and so on are virtually unknown, even to most who frequently reference the US as either a positive or negative role model. Much like american pundits who talk about "Europe" and don't know anything about it.

So what about Europe
Immigration in Europe is perceived as an issue of culture and socio-economics rather than race. Even common stereotypes reflect this, like "polish car thieves", "romanian burglars" and "nigerian drug dealers". Nobody assumes that drug dealing is somehow tied to "blackness". Neither do Africans themselves associate around "blackness" but rather differentiate themselves according to nationality (Nigerian, Somali, Ugandan, etc.)

Moynihan's claim that Europeans don't ever accept immigrants as compatriots is blatantly untrue, accent or not. Assimilated or well integrated immigrants are accepted.
It gets problematic with assimilated immigrants from groups that are otherwise not well integrated. Their immigrant background is recently highlited against their wishes. So for example famous athletes, actors, comedians, businessmen, after having been accepted for decades and whose ethnic background was unknown to most or irrelevant to them and to the public are nowadays frequently asked to speak authoritatively about the immigration issue. This is meant as a well intended embrace, but has frequently the opposite effect on the person at hand.

In the US it is actually the government which constantly reminds Americans about race in its census forms, etc. The very idea of a race category on census forms would be likened to the Nuremberg Laws over here.

Europeans are fooled by the american dream
Europeans are disappointed that immigration doesn't work as Americans have advertised it (through Hollywood, the melting pot concept, tropes like "E pluribus unum"). It is assumed that we must be doing something wrong and have insufficiently copied the American model. This includes the right wing populist parties who frequently point to the US or Canada as a model (lack of welfare for immigrants; strict criteria for green cards etc.). The left on the other hand claims that Americans are more accepting of foreigners and that they wouldn't move out of a neighborhood, just because of immigrants coming in and high proportions of immigrant kids in school districts. The equivalent american "white flight" phenomenon is unknown.

Americans on the other hand are puzzled about what the fuzz in Europe is all about, because they don't believe in their own marketing in the first place.

Florian 11-18-2010 05:08 AM

Re: The discourse about supposedly worse "race relations" in europe is abdurd on its face
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dieter (Post 188892)
It is absurd to attest superior race relations to the US vs. Europe, when the very discourse and framing of the European immigration issue as a an issue of race would be unspeakable on this side of the pond. The casual conversations about race, whites, blacks, asians, etc. that are perfectly mainstream and normal in the US, including on Bloggingheads, ]would be categorized as extreme and vile racism in Europe

Immigration in Europe is perceived as an issue of culture and socio-economics rather than race. Even common stereotypes reflect this, like "polish car thieves", "romanian burglars" and "nigerian drug dealers". Nobody assumes that drug dealing is somehow tied to "blackness". Neither do Africans themselves associate around "blackness" but rather differentiate themselves according to nationality (Nigerian, Somali, Ugandan etc

Exactly, and for obvious historical reasons. Americans are obsessed by race in a way that is incomprehensible to contemporary Europeans because Europe never had the problem of slavery and segregation. Nor did it have, before the middle of the 20th century, much immigration from non-European countries. There has always been a lot of mixing of nationalities within Europe (25% of "native" French people have a grandparent born in some other European country---Italy, Spain, Portugal, Poland, Russia, even Germany).

Contemporary Europeans see immigrants not as distinct races but as distinct national/cultural/religious groups, which is not to say that there is no prejudice against them. But the prejudice takes the form of xenophobia, i.e. a rejection of populations that are perceived as foreign, unassimilated and perhaps unassimilatable (the latter is the view of extreme nationalist parties like Le Pen's Front National). Racial prejudice is something quite different.

Could Europeans do a better job of assimilating these groups? No doubt, but assimilation is a two-way street. And Europeans, or the French at any rate, expect immigrants to make an effort to learn the language and culture of their adopted country, to become good "républicains" (in the French sense).

bjkeefe 11-18-2010 05:13 AM

Re: Exercises of Insanity (Adam Serwer & Michael Moynihan)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 188807)
Ok guys, some facts:
MSNBC had NO conservative commentators on their election coverage. Fox had around 5 liberals.

Name them, please.

If three of them are going to be Juan Williams, Bob Beckel, and Geraldine Ferraro, I invite you to save yourself the bother.

bjkeefe 11-18-2010 05:19 AM

Re: Exercises of Insanity (Adam Serwer & Michael Moynihan)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by harkin (Post 188868)
Just a short while ago the clique here at BhTV came to the brilliant conclusion that anyone saying the same things that Mr Herbert wrote on Monday was just trying to 'stick it to the blacks'.

Link, please. So far as I can see, the only place on this site that phrase appears is in your comment (and quotes of your comment).

bjkeefe 11-18-2010 05:22 AM

Re: Exercises in the Left wing echo chamber
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 188867)
It's just like rcocean has a talking points check list! It's like reading any of his last 30 posts.

If only he were that advanced. It's actually nothing more than the same few words over and over again:

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcocean (Post 188865)
1) Attack ...
2) Attack ...
3) Attack ...
4) Attack ...

... Kieth Olbermann ...

... SWPL ... NYT/Atlantic base ...

You'd think he'd know how to spell Keith by now, though.

bjkeefe 11-18-2010 05:42 AM

Re: Exercises of Insanity (Adam Serwer & Michael Moynihan)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JonIrenicus (Post 188891)
It's not about Bush getting insulted, it's that there are plenty of black people who have views like that, and simply don't have the same stage. To a lesser degree I have heard things similarly negative about the republican party from members of my own family. There is an overriding sense that republicans are against black people over and above what is actually the case. It's why the black vote is such a monolith. It is NOT some purely rational accounting of down the line agreement with every liberal policy under the sun.

The last sentence seems self-evidently true. Or at least, I wouldn't dispute it.

What do you think accounts for the "overriding sense that republicans are against black people?"

Let me stipulate, at least for the sake of this subthread, to your closing clause, "over and above what is actually the case." That is, I don't want to have a discussion, now, of by how much the GOP is overly blamed; we can have that discussion at another time. I'm interested for now only in your thoughts on why you think the "overriding sense" is there.

Follow-up question: Do you think that sense is about the same since Obama became a candidate and/or was elected? Or has it increased? Or decreased?

bjkeefe 11-18-2010 06:12 AM

Re: The discourse about supposedly worse "race relations" in europe is abdurd on its face
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dieter (Post 188892)
It is absurd to attest superior race relations to the US vs. Europe, when the very discourse and framing of the European immigration issue as a an issue of race would be unspeakable on this side of the pond. The casual conversations about race, whites, blacks, asians, etc. that are perfectly mainstream and normal in the US, including on Bloggingheads, would be categorized as extreme and vile racism in Europe.

I don't want to defend the proposition that "the US is superior to Europe on race relations" or anything like that. I do not know nearly enough about Europe to have a meaningful view. I will say that though I was surprised to hear it said, Michael's having lived for a time in Europe and Adam's perspective (part black, and Jewish) made me think the claim had more credibility than if it had just been someone like, say, me -- a white guy who has only lived in the US -- saying it.

I will also say that I am not sure if I understand your meaning correctly in your opening paragraph, but my first impression of it makes me think that, at some point, refusing to discuss race-related issues at all does not seem particularly healthy. If you are trying to say that it is not talked about it because it simply doesn't occur to anyone to talk about it, outside of a few fringe characters, okay.

Quote:

This poses huge problems for those who try to explain american politics to european audiences. In a post presidential election debate, an austrian intellectual who has spent some time in the US, casually und unthinkingly talked about how race relations played into the election in a manner that would be perfectly acceptable and mainstream in the US. A female journalist, who didn't know much about the US, was absolutely shocked that he would introduce vile "race theories" into the debate. The professional US correspondents tried to diplomatically pacify the situation somewhat. They usually ignore the issue.
Again, this seems somewhat ... I can't decide on the right word ... to be in denial, maybe? ... on the part of that journalist who didn't know much about the US. I can accept just not knowing to some degree, but it is hard for me to grasp the thought that a person educated enough to be a journalist at the level where she would be talking to other, world-traveling journalists would not at least be able to get that, well, yes, the US has had a long and difficult history involving race and race-related issues, and so it shouldn't be too surprising that there remain at least echoes.

Quote:

Most europeans have a Hollywood view of the United States. They assume that racism exists in the form of some rural rednecks and sheriffs being mean to the odd black guy who happens to stumble across their way.
That's understandable.

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Europeans assume that almost no blacks live in the racist southern states.
That seems odd. Not that I'm not sure there are equally large gaps in my knowledge about Europe.

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In the US it is actually the government which constantly reminds Americans about race in its census forms, etc. The very idea of a race category on census forms would be likened to the Nuremberg Laws over here.
There's probably an increasingly plausible argument to be made in favor of removing that from the US census forms, but is there truly no understanding among Europeans of why it would have been there in the past?

Just asking, not disputing, in all of the above.

Ocean 11-18-2010 09:16 AM

Re: The discourse about supposedly worse "race relations" in europe is abdurd on its face
 
Although I've never lived in Europe, your comment sounds generally accurate to me. The main points being that nationality/ culture are more sensitive issues than race itself. Europeans have historically fought with other European nations. So they have learned to identify "otherness" in terms of national origin, and not so much race. As Florian says, it's closer to xenophobia than racism.

In terms of not being able to successfully imitate the American model of "melting pot" in Europe, I think that there are significant differences that may explain it. The size of European countries is smaller, the proportion of immigrants to native citizens may be greater, and the cultural differences between natives and immigrants may also be much greater and more difficult to negotiate.


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