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-   -   Commenter Court: The Return (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade) (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?t=5007)

look 03-04-2010 01:47 PM

Re: Shorter this entire diavlog
 
Nice to see you deebee, don't be a stranger.

Florian 03-04-2010 01:54 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The Return (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 153069)
Mmmm ... maybe. But it seems at least as reasonable, then, to say he should know his audience better, and I think I can safely say most of us would like these things to have more zazzle.

More razzle-dazzle I would say. But that would mean eliminating quite a few duds.

bjkeefe 03-04-2010 02:10 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The Return (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Florian (Post 153074)
More razzle-dazzle I would say. But that would mean eliminating quite a few duds.

Just to be clear, I was only referring to the Commenter Court series. As for the entire body of diavlogs, I think Bh.tv has a pretty damned good batting average, the past week or so notwithstanding.

(Okay, not every diavlog I've liked could be said to have had zazzle, but that's not a necessity for every topic and/or pairing.)

Florian 03-04-2010 02:25 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The Return (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 153076)
Just to be clear, I was only referring to the Commenter Court series. As for the entire body of diavlogs, I think Bh.tv has a pretty damned good batting average, the past week or so notwithstanding.

(Okay, not every diavlog I've liked could be said to have had zazzle, but that's not a necessity for every topic and/or pairing.)

The past week, and many a past week. A thoroughly boring round-up of the usual suspects.

But I barely listen to most of the diavlogs, so I should disqualify myself. Bhtv doesn't even come close to what is available in French.

Wonderment 03-04-2010 03:51 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The Return (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Yah, Conn!

Don Zeko 03-04-2010 06:12 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The Return (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
I'm game if Conn is.

Unit 03-04-2010 08:28 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The Return (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Florian (Post 153080)
The past week, and many a past week. A thoroughly boring round-up of the usual suspects.

But I barely listen to most of the diavlogs, so I should disqualify myself. Bhtv doesn't even come close to what is available in French.

What's available in French?

Wonderment 03-04-2010 09:11 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The Return (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

I hold, not entirely confidently, but still on balance hold, that Wieseltier did not in his first post setting off this round of controversy call Sullivan an anti Semite. Most people think he did. Wieseltier in his response to Sullivan says he didn't. But the proof's in the reading of the pudding of his first post. I think textually it's hard to make a case for the outright calling of Sullivan as an anti Semite. I'd like to see it made.
Insinuated: worse.

basman 03-04-2010 11:15 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The Return (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 153122)
Insinuated: worse.

Let's see that case made with reference to the text.

"Insinuation" is the trickiest charge because it can be like subjective water--in the eyes of the drenched beholder-- flowing through one's hands; it's a circumstantial charge without a smoking gun to prove it by.

Itzik Basman (not to be confused with Itzik Basman)

Alexandrite 03-05-2010 01:29 AM

Re: Shorter this entire diavlog
 
Re Don Zeko's post. Shouldn't he be debating Will Wilkinson?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will Wilkinson
But, the thing is, Virginia and Ed Glaeser are simply right about housing regulation. The fact that most liberals won’t listen, due to distrust, is a problem not only for liberal/libertarian amity, but for the poor people hurt by bad regulation. From the classical liberal side, we become distrustful when liberals say they are perfectly willing actually to perform the cost-benefit analysis, but then somehow find that there is always a net benefit. That’s fishy! And so we come to suspect that this seemingly reasonable willingness to honestly and rigorously evaluate the effectiveness of regulation is a front for what they really want: everything.


bjkeefe 03-05-2010 02:22 AM

Re: Shorter this entire diavlog
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexandrite (Post 153142)
Re Don Zeko's post. Shouldn't he be debating Will Wilkinson?

Will is too high on the beard chain.

.

StillmanThomas 03-05-2010 03:06 AM

Shorter BJKeefe
 
Me.

Me me me me me.

JonIrenicus 03-05-2010 04:32 AM

Re: Commenter Court: The Return (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by conncarroll (Post 153053)
I'm admittedly pretty far down on the bheads FrontPage food chain, but I'd be down to diavlog with an Apollonian.

See there Bob, some of the citizens might be up for speaking to the Plebs.

Florian 03-05-2010 06:10 AM

Re: Commenter Court: The Return (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Unit (Post 153116)
What's available in French?

France Culture, 12 hours a day of talk and nothing but talk on almost every imaginable subject. It is available on both radio and internet.

Much wider range of subjects, and the participants are on the whole superior to the journalists who appear on bhtv. Admittedly, I am biased: I don't have much interest in the daily echo chamber of US politics, and I expect a higher level of conceptualization when I listen to debates. That said, there are occasionally top-notch diavlogs.

look 03-05-2010 08:46 AM

Re: Commenter Court: The Return (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Florian (Post 153156)
France Culture, 12 hours a day of talk and nothing but talk on almost every imaginable subject. It is available on both radio and internet.

Much wider range of subjects, and the participants are on the whole superior to the journalists who appear on bhtv. Admittedly, I am biased: I don't have much interest in the daily echo chamber of US politics, and I expect a higher level of conceptualization when I listen to debates. That said, there are occasionally top-notch diavlogs.

So you're in the comment section for the brilliant insights and witty repartee?

look 03-05-2010 08:50 AM

Re: Shorter this entire diavlog
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 153147)
Will is too high on the beard chain.

.

Heh. Remember how badass Continetti looked with his three-day growth when he vlogged with Heather H from the Dem convention?

look 03-05-2010 08:51 AM

Re: Shorter this entire diavlog
 
And for god's sake, man, have the stones to post a smilie straight up. I triple-dog dare ya!

look 03-05-2010 08:52 AM

Re: Shorter BJKeefe
 
Bokes!

look 03-05-2010 08:53 AM

Re: Commenter Court: The Return (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 153104)
I'm game if Conn is.

It's on.

PreppyMcPrepperson 03-05-2010 09:06 AM

Re: Commenter Court: The Return (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by conncarroll (Post 153053)
I'm admittedly pretty far down on the bheads FrontPage food chain, but I'd be down to diavlog with an Apollonian.

Conn, that's great! I think you'd be a great match for Zeko on political reform. I hope this happens soon.

ledocs 03-05-2010 09:16 AM

Re: Commenter Court: The Return (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
I thought I got a nod in my direction when Bob said that they would like to have more diavlogs involving academics and think-tank people but that such diavlogs require a subsidy, they don't tend to attract enough eyeballs.

So here is a suggestion, Bob. Go where the money is, namely to the Jews, Zuckerman and Peretz and Soros, for a start. You propose a special emphasis on Israel-Palestine, just as you did for religion with the Templeton Foundation, you use Aryeh as your front man, and you become an explicit part of the dialogue which attempts to promote peace in the Middle East. You already have Frum and Lake to represent the Right in the stable. You could probably get Michael Lerner to become a regular. I'm sure you can get people from "Dysentery." There aren't just $100 bills lying on the street, there are $1000 bills. Have you ever noticed that Jewish things are disproportionately represented in the world of culture in the West, generally? I just saw a coming attraction for a dramatic movie about the deportation of the Jews from France, called "La Rafle." Coming to a city near you, The Holocaust Film Festival.

I don't think the issue in Wieseltier v. Sullivan is whether Wieseltier called Sullivan an anti-Semite, or whether he even insinuated as much. The impression I got was that Wieseltier was saying that Sullivan is unqualified to be part of the debate about Israel-Palestine, that he does not know enough about it. Further, I think Wieseltier implied that Sullivan is almost precluded from knowing enough about it, by virtue of his goyishness. I already posted all this. The thing is, what Wieseltier wrote was not meant to be a coherent criticism of Sullivan, so I also think that it's pointless to try to figure out exactly what his criticisms were. He just threw a lot of stuff against the wall, hoping that something would stick, and he did it in highly inflammatory language.

By the way, Basman, you make a point on your blog about Israel-Palestine which I think is both important and correct. It occurs in your “ten-point” post, I think, which I am unable to relocate. I am a bit reluctant to summarize the point, but I think it is that Israel is forced by logic to claim a historical and biblical right to Greater Israel. If she does not do so, the entire edifice crumbles, at least logically (not militarily).

Also by the way, I started reading your post on Martha Nussbaum on love. Martha Nussbaum is like your friend, the ABD substitute teacher you describe, she’s not a risk-taker and is therefore completely hypocritical on the subject of taking risks in the pursuit of love. She’s had some well-known affairs, with Amartaya Sen and Cass Sunnstein, for example, she has advertised her affair with Sen in print, but I think the affairs tend to help her career, not the reverse. The imprimatur of Sen probably allowed her to get funding to study international development and women's issues, for example. I was particularly struck by the preface to her book, “The Therapy of Desire”. In that preface, she launches into the most incredible and fatuous praise for Gregory Vlastos, whom I knew, to my great regret, when I was a grad student at Berkeley. Vlastos was already dead, I think, when the preface was written. Vlastos was a petty and terribly vain creep, and not particularly smart. That he dominated the field of ancient philosophy in America for over a generation only tells us that analytic philosophers do not care about that field and know almost nothing about it (for good reason – you have to learn ancient Greek, which takes a lot of time, time that could be spent studying math, for example). That Martha Nussbaum should be regarded as one of the great ethical thinkers of our time is more than a bit depressing, although I actually tend to agree with most of her positions.

She is interviewed on “Conversations with History,” a sort of UC-sponsored bloggingheads, except that it consists of interviews, not debates, with a single interviewer, Harry Kreisler, and she lists ten important indices for the status of women. I think I might have posted on my blog about this. Basically, why ten? Why not eight or twelve? Which raises the question, are you and Nussbaum both Kabbalists (you both have ten-point programs)?

(Nussbaum is not Jewish. She was married to a Jewish linguist and kept the name after divorce. She likes being thought to be Jewish, apparently. This is an example of her risk-taking.)

http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/peo...baum-con0.html

Is there a prize for going off-topic? Can I get it?

osmium 03-05-2010 10:18 AM

Re: Commenter Court: The Return (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
I would never lower my standards and talk to a front-pager. I work for a living.*

*provocative!

Florian 03-05-2010 11:46 AM

Re: Commenter Court: The Return (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by look (Post 153164)
So you're in the comment section for the brilliant insights and witty repartee?

No, I am in the comment section whenever I hear a diavlog that interests me, which is seldom.

Brilliant insights and witty repartee? There is much more of the latter than the former.

bjkeefe 03-05-2010 12:35 PM

Re: Shorter this entire diavlog
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by look (Post 153166)
And for god's sake, man, have the stones to post a smilie straight up. I triple-dog dare ya!

I'm not sure why this should be a measure of courage, but in any case, I do, quite often. However there are times when I feel like it should be pretty obvious that I'm making a joke and the full graphic feels too much like a "Huh? Huh? Get it? Get it?" nudge in the ribs.

==========

[Added] Come to that, it would be more stone-possessing to have put no winkie at all, even the obfuscated one I chose -- one should have confidence in one's jokes that they will be seen as such, it could be argued.

Ultimately, though, it seems to me this also requires confidence in (1) the audience and (2) the medium of transmission, and so I think footnotes are the better part of valor here.

kezboard 03-05-2010 12:51 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The Return (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Much wider range of subjects, and the participants are on the whole superior to the journalists who appear on bhtv. Admittedly, I am biased: I don't have much interest in the daily echo chamber of US politics, and I expect a higher level of conceptualization when I listen to debates. That said, there are occasionally top-notch diavlogs.
Oh oh. No more buttered scones for me, I'm off to listen to France Culture. Listen, I like you and I think you're a worthwhile contributor, but god, does this ever get obnoxious.

Florian 03-05-2010 03:34 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The Return (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kezboard (Post 153191)
Oh oh. No more buttered scones for me, I'm off to listen to France Culture. Listen, I like you and I think you're a worthwhile contributor, but god, does this ever get obnoxious.

Good luck. It might do you some good.

Why obnoxious? You in particular feel free to express your opinion, often negative, on the both the content and participants of the diavlogs. I happen to find most of the political diavlogs on bhtv tedious and hardly worth listening to.

What you really mean when you say my comparison with France Culture is obnoxious is that you cannot believe that any other country might be superior to the US in the quality of its culture.

look 03-05-2010 03:58 PM

Re: Shorter this entire diavlog
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 153187)
I'm not sure why this should be a measure of courage, but in any case, I do, quite often. However there are times when I feel like it should be pretty obvious that I'm making a joke and the full graphic feels too much like a "Huh? Huh? Get it? Get it?" nudge in the ribs.

==========

[Added] Come to that, it would be more stone-possessing to have put no winkie at all, even the obfuscated one I chose -- one should have confidence in one's jokes that they will be seen as such, it could be argued.

Ultimately, though, it seems to me this also requires confidence in (1) the audience and (2) the medium of transmission, and so I think footnotes are the better part of valor here.

First, I was commenting on my perception that you dislike icon smilies and prefer the ones with a nose that don't convert to an icon, so I thought linking was your way of avoiding including them in your posts.

Second, I apologize for not appreciating the depth of your nuance. ;)

Third, the beard chain was quite obviously a joke, and a good one, so why did you think you needed to ensure we got it, hmmmm?

Fourth, I need to get a life!

bjkeefe 03-05-2010 04:11 PM

Re: Shorter this entire diavlog
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by look (Post 153235)
First, I was commenting on my perception that you dislike icon smilies and prefer the ones with a nose that don't convert to an icon, so I thought linking was your way of avoiding including them in your posts.

Oh, that. Fair point. But I have to say that I have grown out of my insistence on ASCII-only emoticons, thanks to (blame) Ocean and Twin.

My new thing is use ;^) instead of ;) when I want the winking to be less overt, but not as obfuscated as .

Quote:

Originally Posted by look (Post 153235)
Third, the beard chain was quite obviously a joke, and a good one, so why did you think you needed to ensure we got it, hmmmm?

Thanks. But you are not everybody; e.g., some people reading this forum appear to be less up on the day-to-day flow of the in-jokes and/or not familiar enough with me to know that a statement like that would have to be a joke, even if its meaning wasn't apparent. On a related note, "beard" is a mildly loaded term in modern parlance.

look 03-05-2010 04:26 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The Return (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Florian (Post 153186)
No, I am in the comment section whenever I hear a diavlog that interests me, which is seldom.

Brilliant insights and witty repartee? There is much more of the latter than the former.

Better half a loaf than none at all.

look 03-05-2010 04:29 PM

Re: Shorter this entire diavlog
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 153239)
Oh, that. Fair point. But I have to say that I have grown out of my insistence on ASCII-only emoticons, thanks to (blame) Ocean and Twin.

My new thing is use ;^) instead of ;) when I want the winking to be less overt, but not as obfuscated as .



Thanks. But you are not everybody; e.g., some people reading this forum appear to be less up on the day-to-day flow of the in-jokes and/or not familiar enough with me to know that a statement like that would have to be a joke, even if its meaning wasn't apparent. On a related note, "beard" is a mildly loaded term in modern parlance.

Oh, me, should I ask, or consult the Urban Dictionary?

bjkeefe 03-05-2010 04:39 PM

Re: Shorter this entire diavlog
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by look (Post 153242)
Oh, me, should I ask, or consult the Urban Dictionary?

The latter will probably be more entertaining.

kezboard 03-05-2010 06:04 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The Return (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

What you really mean when you say my comparison with France Culture is obnoxious is that you cannot believe that any other country might be superior to the US in the quality of its culture.
Please, of course that isn't what I really meant. And I certainly don't have any problem with you recommending other programs to commenters, regardless of what language they're in or what country they come from. I am totally willing to believe that a French radio program could be better than bhtv, I'm even willing to believe that it's so unbelievably good that it beats anything the US has ever produced. But I'm not willing to argue about whether one culture is superior to another, because that's a stupid argument to have. And what I really meant is that you just love insinuating the superiority of French culture in particularly obnoxious ways, and I don't know whether you're doing this because you truly believe it or because you like putting up flypaper for equally obnoxious American chauvinists, but it makes me feel like I'm listening to someone who's just come back from junior year abroad and can't stop talking about how worldly they are and how much more civilized it was wherever they were studying.

Quote:

I happen to find most of the political diavlogs on bhtv tedious and hardly worth listening to.
Okay, that's fine, go ahead and say so. I happen to find comments like "I prefer a higher level of conceptualization" and "the participants are on the whole superior to the journalists on bhtv" totally pretentious. And as a person who is susceptible to being pretentious myself, I occasionally feel the need to call out/mock other people who are being pretentious.

Ocean 03-05-2010 06:38 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The Return (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by osmium (Post 153178)
I would never lower my standards and talk to a front-pager. I work for a living.*

*provocative!

;)

Florian 03-05-2010 06:43 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The Return (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kezboard (Post 153265)
Please, of course that isn't what I really meant. And I certainly don't have any problem with you recommending other programs to commenters, regardless of what language they're in or what country they come from. I am totally willing to believe that a French radio program could be better than bhtv, I'm even willing to believe that it's so unbelievably good that it beats anything the US has ever produced. But I'm not willing to argue about whether one culture is superior to another, because that's a stupid argument to have. And what I really meant is that you just love insinuating the superiority of French culture in particularly obnoxious ways, and I don't know whether you're doing this because you truly believe it or because you like putting up flypaper for equally obnoxious American chauvinists, but it makes me feel like I'm listening to someone who's just come back from junior year abroad and can't stop talking about how worldly they are and how much more civilized it was wherever they were studying.



Okay, that's fine, go ahead and say so. I happen to find comments like "I prefer a higher level of conceptualization" and "the participants are on the whole superior to the journalists on bhtv" totally pretentious. And as a person who is susceptible to being pretentious myself, I occasionally feel the need to call out/mock other people who are being pretentious.

My junior year in college was a long time ago..... I am sorry you find my remarks obnoxious and pretentious, but I find the level of political discourse in the US pretty low, and I will continue to say so. I also can't help making comparisons between cultural institutions in the US (bhtv or public radio) and political/cultural programs in France. I admit that I am biased by education and upbringing.

uncle ebeneezer 03-05-2010 06:46 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The Return (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

it makes me feel like I'm listening to someone who's just come back from junior year abroad and can't stop talking about how worldly they are and how much more civilized it was wherever they were studying.
Now THAT'S a great analogy!!

Florian 03-05-2010 06:52 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The Return (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by uncle ebeneezer (Post 153284)
Now THAT'S a great analogy!!

Only it is a false analogy. Since I have lived in France longer than I ever lived in the US. And therefore I naturally find the US inferior in every respect.

claymisher 03-05-2010 07:06 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The Return (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
That reminds me of an old article:

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/34198

kezboard 03-05-2010 07:22 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The Return (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

I find the level of political discourse in the US pretty low, and I will continue to say so.
That's not what I'm criticizing you for. The idea that political discourse in the US is superficial is not exactly controversial, I don't think very many people would disagree with that assessment.

Quote:

I also can't help making comparisons between cultural institutions in the US (bhtv or public radio) and political/cultural programs in France.
Listen, I've lived in other countries before, and not just during my junior year abroad (although that was educational). If the Slovak department of labor hurries up with my work permit, I'll be living outside the US again soon, which I'm really excited about. I get that it's enlightening to compare your experiences in one country with your experiences in another. But I just didn't think that was what you were doing when you made the case for the superiority of French radio programming. I thought you were being more like the American who goes to Europe and can't stop pointing out how much better American bathrooms, American cars, and American kitchen gadgets are. And the fact that you immediately accused me of being a nationalist American who can't comprehend the possibility that we might not be number one in anything at all sort of cements that feeling for me.

I'm not trying to pick a fight for shits and giggles. I just think that denigrating everything related to the US and its culture is just as silly and unrelated to reality as proclaiming its superiority over everything else.

Unit 03-05-2010 11:36 PM

Re: Commenter Court: The Return (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Florian (Post 153156)
France Culture, 12 hours a day of talk and nothing but talk on almost every imaginable subject. It is available on both radio and internet.

Much wider range of subjects, and the participants are on the whole superior to the journalists who appear on bhtv. Admittedly, I am biased: I don't have much interest in the daily echo chamber of US politics, and I expect a higher level of conceptualization when I listen to debates. That said, there are occasionally top-notch diavlogs.

That sounds a bit different from bhtv that pitches two speakers against each other. What you're describing sounds more like programs like Charlie Rose or BookTV where one especially bright host interviews some intellectual. But thanks for the tip.

uncle ebeneezer 03-06-2010 01:01 AM

Re: Commenter Court: The Return (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)
 
I said "great" not "apt." I meant that I love the imagery, not how it relates to you.


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