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-   -   Senator Mickey Kaus??? (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?t=4999)

AemJeff 03-02-2010 05:47 PM

Re: On Goats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jyminee (Post 152889)
I agree that, based on the publicly available evidence, there wasn't any reason to believe Mickey on Edwards (I didn't believe it at the time, either). But my point is that since he was proved correct, it doesn't make any sense to keep mocking him for being wrong, because, once again, he was not wrong, the mockers were wrong.

BTW, I remember that at some point after the scandal broke Mickey said that he received vague non-denials (or something) from people close to Edwards--in other words, he wasn't just wildly speculating, but he had some background info pointing towards the fact that Edwards was a sleaze.

But the reason for mocking him isn't in regard to whether he was factually correct. It's because he exhibited no professional integrity. The salient issue has nothing to do with Edwards at all. Mickey was willing to run with a rumor regardless of whether there was any principled reason to do so. His unsubstantiated claims of vague support don't especially help his case.

nikkibong 03-02-2010 05:47 PM

Re: On Goats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 152887)
I'd expect you to have a more sophisticated understanding of the principles involved, nikkibong. The mere existence of an allegation ought not be a sufficient standard of credibility. Anybody can allege anything at any time. Why should we have granted this particular rumor any special a priori advantage over every other such story?

Right, but obviously this was not an example of a "mere allegation." It's not coincidence that Kaus' contention turned out to be true.

To answer your question: we should have granted this particular rumour special advantage because it was true.

AemJeff 03-02-2010 05:48 PM

Re: On Goats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nikkibong (Post 152894)
Right, but obviously this was not an example of a "mere allegation." It's not coincidence that Kaus' contention turned out to be true.

To answer your question: we should have granted this particular rumour special advantage because it was true.

And the standard for judging the truth of a rumor (on its face) is therefore the inherent truth of the claim, regardless of evidence or propriety. Got it.

Jyminee 03-02-2010 05:56 PM

Re: On Goats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 152895)
And the standard for judging the truth of a rumor (on its face) is therefore the inherent truth of the claim, regardless of evidence or propriety. Got it.

It was fine to mock him when the rumor seemed outlandish. Once the rumor was proven true, to continue to mock him for it is as stupid as (hypothetical) freepers going after Michelle Obama for hating whitey.

AemJeff 03-02-2010 06:03 PM

Re: On Goats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jyminee (Post 152896)
It was fine to mock him when the rumor seemed outlandish. Once the rumor was proven true, to continue to mock him for it is as stupid as (hypothetical) freepers going after Michelle Obama for hating whitey.

That's just not the case. I'm as glad as you are to have seen Edwards outed as a pathetic asshole. But there's no possible fact about Edwards that could make Mickey's complete disregard of ethical and professional standards alright. Dishing rumors in public without substantiation is wrong, even when it turns out (as it will sometimes, inevitably) that a particular rumor is true.

PreppyMcPrepperson 03-02-2010 06:24 PM

Re: On Goats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 152897)
That's just not the case. I'm as glad as you are to have seen Edwards outed as a pathetic asshole. But there's no possible fact about Edwards that could make Mickey's complete disregard of ethical and professional standards alright. Dishing rumors in public without substantiation is wrong, even when it turns out (as it will sometimes, inevitably) that a particular rumor is true.

Jeff, you're missing the point. Even if Mickey acted badly in ways that call for mockery of some kind, the particular term of mockery "goat" needs to be retired and replaced with a new term. Because while at the time he posted them, Mickey's comments re Edwards suffered from three flaws:
-lack of evidence
-impropriety
-suspicions of falsehood

BUT the term "goat" was a joke about the THIRD flaw. Go back at look at the comment threads on old KF posts. The goat joke was ABOUT Mickey telling lies.

Now it turns out it wasn't a lie. It may still have been bad form, but since the "goat" joke was ABOUT the lying part, it's just not the right joke here.

bjkeefe 03-02-2010 06:27 PM

Re: On Goats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 152895)
And the standard for judging the truth of a rumor (on its face) is therefore the inherent truth of the claim, regardless of evidence or propriety. Got it.

Coming up next on the next Apollovlog: nikkibong and Jyminee discuss why the United States must embrace trial by duress.

bjkeefe 03-02-2010 06:33 PM

Re: On Goats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PreppyMcPrepperson (Post 152898)
The goat joke was ABOUT Mickey telling lies.

No it wasn't. As it was most often told, it was phrased as a question; e.g., "Are the rumors about Mickey Kaus and certain barnyard animals TRUE??? It would be irresponsible NOT to speculate!!!"

It was all about Mickey harping on something for which he had no evidence and how he danced around making any direct accusations, while doing no reportorial or investigative work.

However, it's good to know the joke still makes his supporters so sensitive. We will therefore keep it alive with a vengeance.

claymisher 03-02-2010 06:34 PM

Re: On Goats
 
"It would be irresponsible not to speculate" is so much fun to say.

bjkeefe 03-02-2010 06:54 PM

Re: On Goats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 152899)
Coming up next on the next Apollovlog: nikkibong and Jyminee discuss why the United States must embrace trial by duress.

And also, how great it is to be frisky.

uncle ebeneezer 03-02-2010 06:58 PM

Re: On Goats
 
My interpretation of the many Goat threads (I mainly read them on Yglesias, Ezra Klein and other places away from KF) was that Mickey was operating under the logic that because the Edwards camp wasn't denying an accusation that Mickey had no evidence for, that that made it okay for him to continue to push those rumors because the lack of a denial constituted some evidence of proof of the original rumor. By extension of that logic, ANY ridiculous scenario would be fair game because lack of a denial only reinforces the plausibility of the initial charge. Use a little imagination, add a goat and voilah!! Mickey has shown a tendency to eschew good journalistic principles over the years, in order to push sensationalistic stories and headlines, so in his case I think it's fair to continue to mock him. Perhaps if he just admitted to being a conservative gossip columnist, people would be less interested in goofing on him. I'm not a journalist like you or Nikki, but I have always had a great deal of respect for the ones who try to do it right and responsibly. I only can imagine how hard it is to function and try to make a living in such a restricted way, given the easy chances at gaining fame, $ and notoriety by just being a little lazier and less careful or principled. The jokes are directly tied to the journalistic approach that Mickey chooses to take.

Wonderment 03-02-2010 07:07 PM

Brown v. Whitman
 
Should be a very interesting race. She has a big jump on Brown's announcement and has been inundating the airwaves with slick ads (and a very hostile campaign against her primary opponent).

A Dem. victory for governor would be huge, since the state assembly and senate are solidly liberal.

Of course, we all remember what happened the last time a Dem. held the office: utterwingnuttery prevailed, Grey Davis was kicked out, and the craziest special election in American history brought the Governator to power. (I grudgingly admit he has actually turned out to be a very moderate Repub.)

AemJeff 03-02-2010 07:12 PM

Re: On Goats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PreppyMcPrepperson (Post 152898)
Jeff, you're missing the point. Even if Mickey acted badly in ways that call for mockery of some kind, the particular term of mockery "goat" needs to be retired and replaced with a new term. Because while at the time he posted them, Mickey's comments re Edwards suffered from three flaws:
-lack of evidence
-impropriety
-suspicions of falsehood

BUT the term "goat" was a joke about the THIRD flaw. Go back at look at the comment threads on old KF posts. The goat joke was ABOUT Mickey telling lies.

Now it turns out it wasn't a lie. It may still have been bad form, but since the "goat" joke was ABOUT the lying part, it's just not the right joke here.

I like this way of putting it somewhat better, but ultimately I still have the same problem with it. Asserting the truth of a proposition without regard for the facts is the moral equivalent of telling a lie. The happenstance of accidental accuracy doesn't help clean the slate, I think.

I view the "goat" joke entirely in terms of Mickey's willingness to assert something damaging to Edwards, regardless of evidence. I strongly feel that there's no new fact that can change the moral value of having made that assertion.

kezboard 03-02-2010 11:29 PM

Re: On Goats
 
Quote:

But my point is that since he was proved correct, it doesn't make any sense to keep mocking him for being wrong, because, once again, he was not wrong, the mockers were wrong.
I kind of want to agree with you here, but I think the fact that Edwards actually did turn out to have a love-child makes the goat-blowing joke somehow funnier, so I support its continued use.

bjkeefe 03-02-2010 11:34 PM

Re: Brown v. Whitman
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 152905)
[...]

Good points, all.

bjkeefe 03-03-2010 01:17 AM

Re: On Goats
 
"A somewhat popular blogger" says near the end of "This is why you can’t have nice things:"

Quote:

Lastly: Who is running for office is Mickey Kaus in California in an attempt to draw us into his vortex, I guess, but I simply refuse to read the KausFiles which is too misfiring-synapse-stream-of-consciousness for my tastes. Mickey has drawn the endorsement of overweight disheveled Jonah Goldberg which counts for, lessee…carry the three…oh yes, nothing. On the other hand, mean old elitist bloggers have once again taken to smearing Mickey with The Love That Dare Not Bleat It’s Name and this makes the Armed Liberal very sad:

Quote:

And so, today – for telling the truth – Mickey gets tagged with a slur that sounds exactly like the kind of thing my 13 year old and his buddies used to say about their schoolmates – until they got to middle school.

Nice work, Netroots!! And that’s why you don’t deserve, and won’t get, and real power.
Oh nice job, you guys. This is why we can’t get the public option, gay marriage, and free abortions for everyone. Because you had to be mean to Mickey Kaus and now America is ruined forever.

Jyminee 03-03-2010 01:54 AM

Re: On Goats
 
There's actually an argument that kinda makes sense in that original post--the sort of mutual high-fiving epitomized by the "blowing goats" joke demonstrates that the Netroots are an insular movement that won't be able to go mainstream. Not sure if that is correct, though--just a thought.

I actually stopped reading kausfiles a few months ago because I just got sick of it, but it's worth pointing out that Mickey was also correct about a key aspect of Obama's health reform push: that what Mickey called "Orzagism"--the effort to bend the cost curve--was a political loser. Obama thought he would be able to lure in a few moderate GOPers with a bill that constrained long-term medical costs, but by cracking open the door to the dread fear of rationing, he let professional liars like Palin scream "death panel" and galvanized opposition to the bill.

bjkeefe 03-03-2010 02:26 AM

Re: On Goats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jyminee (Post 152934)
... the Netroots are an insular movement that won't be able to go mainstream.

If so, then praise the FSM, I say. The "mainstream" is what got us GW Bush as president, the invasion of Iraq, and the belief that Jonah Goldberg should be paid to opine in a once-pretty-good newspaper. Among about nine thousand other things you probably don't need me to type out.

Quote:

I actually stopped reading kausfiles a few months ago because I just got sick of it, but it's worth pointing out that Mickey was also correct about a key aspect of Obama's health reform push: ...
Sorry. I'm not buying any argument that purports to explain why HCR turned into a brutal battle by laying blame at any lefty's feet, including the President's, particularly when it comes to "messaging" or any Kausian wanktastic bloggorrhea like that. Anyone with an ounce of sense and/or a memory that reaches back to the early 1990s knew this was going to be an all-hands-on-deck war to oppose by the Republicans, their paymasters, and their mouth-breathing followers. The lies and FUD would have been spewed by Palin, et al, no matter how the plan was constructed or pitched.

And as to the cost savings (or attempts thereto) I will only say that without that as part of the package, I probably wouldn't support HCR myself.

bjkeefe 03-03-2010 02:57 PM

Re: Brown v. Whitman
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 152905)
Should be a very interesting race. [...] Of course, we all remember what happened the last time ...

For more on this, not to mention a valuable additional history refresher, Roy Edroso has a very fine post up, which begins as follows.

Quote:

Gather 'round, youngsters, and we'll explain why Jerry Brown for Governor is more interesting than Harold Ford Jr. for Senate Not Really, Mort Zuckerman for Senate Not Really, and Mickey Kaus for Senate O RLY?
I am undecided whether that last link is a subtle slap at Ross Douthat, because the contrast between its vacuity and Roy's post could not be more profound.

Bonus! Roy recalls the last time Time magazine made a funny.

bjkeefe 03-04-2010 01:29 AM

Re: On Goats
 
Okay, one more, just because Scott Lemieux says it so well:

Quote:

Marc Danzinger's sputtering defense of Mickey Kaus fails to understand that it's not a defense of drawing conclusions based on transparently unreliable evidence that a conclusion happened to be true. Obviously, when you assume that every rumor about a Democratic politician you dislike is true sometimes you're going to be right, but that doesn't retroactively make weak evidence reliable, let alone mean that someone owes Kaus an apology. Danzinger tastefully omits further discussion of some other examples of Kaus's methods in action which make this clear. This campaign's promise of comedy gold is already off to a promising start, though -- the yostabee set will be partying like it's 2002.
[Ed. note: prob. should be "yoostabee."]

look 03-04-2010 01:37 PM

Re: He is assured of at least one vote...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PreppyMcPrepperson (Post 152841)
His mom, duh.

Well, I meant harkin, but was conceding Mickey and his mom when I said 'three', above.

uncle ebeneezer 03-07-2010 01:00 AM

Re: On Goats
 
Sounds like Jon Swift is endorsing Mickey from the grave:

Quote:

16. Reporting on people's personal lives should be avoided unless the Drudge Report or the National Enquirer has already written about it, in which case you can report that they reported on it, which is not the same as reporting on it yourself.

...

19. Ruining people's lives is generally frowned upon and should be avoided if at all possible unless the public has a right to know. A journalist must be completely dispassionate and not worry too much about the impact of the story they are writing on the people they are writing about or on the world in general as that would compromise their objectivity. (See Rule No. 1.)

bjkeefe 03-07-2010 03:20 AM

Ceci n'est pas ...
 
une affiche de campagne.

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/7608/notmickeykaus.jpg

bjkeefe 03-08-2010 07:38 PM

Representative Dave Anderson???
 
The trend appears to be spreading.

Political analysis of this bold move by Tim F., who may have set a record for Most Inside Baseball Packed Into One Blog Post.

osmium 03-12-2010 06:53 PM

Gawker begins oppo research on Mickey
 
[snip]
"We'll of course comb through the hundreds of thousands (millions?) or words he's written in his career, looking for examples of homophobic or racist statements he's made. And we'll touch base with old pals—like Ann Coulter—colleagues, girlfriends—like Arianna Huffington—classmates, etc., in search of embarrassing or damaging information, which we'll assemble into a handy little dossier and publish here.

“We’ll pull together whatever we come up with—maybe nothing!—and post it here. Kaus is a great writer, a very smart man, and a genuine blogging pioneer, and we wish him nothing but the best in his campaign. We just think it would be a shame if he went to all that trouble without getting taken seriously. And you know they’re taking you seriously in politics when they start trying to destroy you.”

-Gawker

bjkeefe 03-12-2010 07:03 PM

Re: Gawker begins oppo research on Mickey
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by osmium (Post 154124)
[snip]
"We'll of course comb through the hundreds of thousands (millions?) or words he's written in his career, looking for examples of homophobic or racist statements he's made. And we'll touch base with old pals—like Ann Coulter—colleagues, girlfriends—like Arianna Huffington—classmates, etc., in search of embarrassing or damaging information, which we'll assemble into a handy little dossier and publish here.

“We’ll pull together whatever we come up with—maybe nothing!—and post it here. Kaus is a great writer, a very smart man, and a genuine blogging pioneer, and we wish him nothing but the best in his campaign. We just think it would be a shame if he went to all that trouble without getting taken seriously. And you know they’re taking you seriously in politics when they start trying to destroy you.”

-Gawker

Note that the original contains a dingalink!

Quote:

And we'll touch base with old pals—like Ann Coulter— ...
Global Media Juggernaut™ FTW!

osmium 03-12-2010 07:14 PM

Re: Gawker begins oppo research on Mickey
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 154125)
Note that the original contains a dingalink!

And not only a dingalink; THE dingalink if you were going to make only one. You know, I think that diavlog was the first time I ever watched a bloggingheads 3 times.

EDIT: Here it is, in case you don't want to step in Gawker to get it.

PreppyMcPrepperson 03-14-2010 12:42 AM

Re: Gawker begins oppo research on Mickey
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by osmium (Post 154126)
And not only a dingalink; THE dingalink if you were going to make only one. You know, I think that diavlog was the first time I ever watched a bloggingheads 3 times.

EDIT: Here it is, in case you don't want to step in Gawker to get it.

Yeah, it really IS the dingalink. It's probably the first intra-BHeads meme, referenced in so many Bob/Mickey DV's after that.

Wonderment 03-14-2010 04:59 PM

Most overpaid "journalist" in the world
 
Here's the link:

Quote:

Now that you’re running, can you continue to write for Slate, which is owned by The Washington Post and may not want to be issuing paychecks to political candidates?

I’m certainly going to blog during the campaign. The question is whether it’s for Slate or whether it’s not for Slate.

How much do they pay you?

I had been making in the mid-90s, and then I had to take a pay cut along with everyone else, and I was making in the 80s.

uncle ebeneezer 03-14-2010 11:04 PM

Re: Most overpaid "journalist" in the world
 
It's about time the CA Democratic Party got back to the important things like serving the interests of affluent, white bloggers!!

osmium 03-15-2010 09:22 AM

Re: Most overpaid "journalist" in the world
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by uncle ebeneezer (Post 154402)
It's about time the CA Democratic Party got back to the important things like serving the interests of affluent, white bloggers!!

$500,000 ain't diddly.

bjkeefe 03-15-2010 09:30 AM

Re: Most overpaid "journalist" in the world
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by osmium (Post 154448)

LOL! Now that's how to rip a quote out of context! Dingalink of the week!

bjkeefe 03-15-2010 10:54 AM

Re: Senator Mickey Kaus???
 
Guess who just scored an exclusive interview with Rielle Hunter!!!

Not Mickey!!!

look 03-15-2010 06:54 PM

Mick-ey! Mick-ey! Mick-ey!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 154342)

This one's cute:

Quote:

Q: What about the problem posed by the image of bloggers as people loath to get out of their pajamas?

A: Right. They’d have to cross the clothing barrier.
Now, that I think more about it, if Boxer is 69, this could be her last go-round. This current campaign could be about building name recognition, defining his agenda, etc. California is one sick puppy right now, and wouldn't it be interesting if Mickey took the form of a kinder, gentler Bullworth, and really jazzed people up, a la The One.

:)

bjkeefe 03-15-2010 07:26 PM

Re: Mick-ey! Mick-ey! Mick-ey!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by look (Post 154495)
... and wouldn't it be interesting if Mickey took the form of a kinder, gentler Bullworth, and really jazzed people up ...

So, all we need is for Mickey to be introduced to a hot Latina (Hallea Berria?), who falls for him, and who, it later turns out, is either a school teacher or a union official.

;)

PreppyMcPrepperson 03-16-2010 02:32 AM

Re: Mick-ey! Mick-ey! Mick-ey!
 
Quote:

Q: What about the problem posed by the image of bloggers as people loath to get out of their pajamas?

A: Right. They’d have to cross the clothing barrie
:)
My mom sent me the article (though I'd already seen it), with that part bolded. I think she has a mental image of me the way I look when I visit home (in my pajamas 24/7, eating cereal out of the box and ice cream out of the carton) and hasn't figured out that I don't look like that all the time.

bjkeefe 03-16-2010 08:45 AM

Re: Most overpaid "journalist" in the world
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 154342)

More on this from Brad DeLong, in the "Economics of Weblogging...," which reveals, by the Kaus metric, how scandalously underpaid are three other 'Heads: Ta-Nehisi Coates, Ezra Klein, and Matt Yglesias.

And don't miss the footnote.

uncle ebeneezer 03-16-2010 12:39 PM

Re: Most overpaid "journalist" in the world
 
That DeLong piece was freakin' AWESOME!! At the impotent level that he posts, Mickey is indeed the "welfare queen" of the blogosphere.

look 03-16-2010 04:12 PM

Re: Mick-ey! Mick-ey! Mick-ey!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 154501)
So, all we need is for Mickey to be introduced to a hot Latina (Hallea Berria?), who falls for him, and who, it later turns out, is either a school teacher or a union official.

;)

Jennifer Lopez and a GPS with a Mexican accent.

look 03-16-2010 04:14 PM

Re: Most overpaid "journalist" in the world
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 154563)
More on this from Brad DeLong, in the "Economics of Weblogging...," which reveals, by the Kaus metric, how scandalously underpaid are three other 'Heads: Ta-Nehisi Coates, Ezra Klein, and Matt Yglesias.

And don't miss the footnote.

A) Mickey>Ezra

B) In the footnote: Mickey's piece>Ezra's piece

You're welcome.


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