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-   -   Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!' (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?t=6348)

operative 12-03-2010 01:42 PM

Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

Striking a defiant tone, journalist Helen Thomas, 90, said today she absolutely stands by her controversial comments about Israel made earlier this year that led to her resignation. But she stoked additional controversy with new remarks, claiming that "Zionists" control U.S. foreign policy and other American institutions. The local Jewish community strongly condemned her remarks.
"I can call a president of the United States anything in the book but I can't touch Israel, which has Jewish-only roads in the West Bank," Thomas said. "No American would tolerate that -- white-only roads."
Thomas, who grew up in Detroit the daughter of Lebanese immigrants, was in Dearborn today for an Arab Detroit workshop on anti-Arab bias. The Free Press asked her about her comments, which critics have said were anti-Israel.
"I paid the price for that," said Thomas, a longtime White House correspondent. "But it was worth it, to speak the truth."
"The Zionists have to understand that's their country, too. Palestinians were there long before any European Zionists."
Thomas claimed that "You can not say anything (critical) about Israel in this country."
In a speech that drew a standing ovation, Thomas talked about "the whole question of money involved in politics."
"We are owned by propagandists against the Arabs. There's no question about that. Congress, the White House, and Hollywood, Wall Street, are owned by the Zionists. No question in my opinion. They put their money where there mouth is…We're being pushed into a wrong direction in every way."
Jewish groups have criticized Thomas' earlier remarks, saying they were unfair and bigoted. And they slammed today's remarks as well.
"When she said…today that Congress, the White House, Hollywood and Wall Street are owned by Zionists, Ms. Thomas repeated the anti-Semitic stereotypes that have been used for more than a century to incite hatred of Jews. Her comments should be condemned by all people who oppose bigotry in any form," said Robert Cohen, executive director of the Jewish Community Relations Council of Metropolitan Detroit.


Read more: Defiant Helen Thomas defends remarks that led to exit | freep.com | Detroit Free Press http://www.freep.com/article/2010120...#ixzz174V8WJnm
Nice to see an icon of the lefty media doing even more to expose herself as a demented antisemite. Now just to wait for someone on here to defend her remarks.

chiwhisoxx 12-03-2010 05:25 PM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
For the record, Israel doesn't have "Jew only roads," they have Israeli only roads.

Wonderment 12-03-2010 05:33 PM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

For the record, Israel doesn't have "Jew only roads," they have Israeli only roads.
They have Apartheid Occupier-Only roads.

Starwatcher162536 12-03-2010 05:33 PM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Is there a difference?

Wonderment 12-03-2010 05:36 PM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

Is there a difference?
Yes, conservatively speaking, 20% of Israel's population is not Jewish.

Starwatcher162536 12-03-2010 05:38 PM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
..and this 20% does not encompass "secular jews"?

operative 12-03-2010 05:46 PM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 (Post 191006)
..and this 20% does not encompass "secular jews"?

There are 1,523,900 Arab citizens in Israel.

Wonderment 12-03-2010 05:47 PM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

..and this 20% does not encompass "secular jews"?
No, definitely not.

There are about 1.3 million Israeli-Arab citizens of Israel who are Muslim (mostly) and Christian. Also, throw in an at least 1/3 of the original 1 million Soviet immigrants who are either non-Jewish family members of an immigrant Jew or "Jews" by virtue of having (maybe) 1 Jewish grandparent. There are also descendants of Jews who have intermarried and long ago renounced the religion. Finally, there are also small numbers of other naturalized non-Jews and immigrant workers from Thailand, Philipines, etc. whose citizenship is under dispute.

Ocean 12-03-2010 05:57 PM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 191010)
No, definitely not.

There are about 1.3 million Israeli-Arab citizens of Israel who are Muslim (mostly) and Christian. Also, throw in an at least 1/3 of the original 1 million Soviet immigrants who are either non-Jewish family members of an immigrant Jew or "Jews" by virtue of having (maybe) 1 Jewish grandparent. There are also descendants of Jews who have intermarried and long ago renounced the religion. Finally, there are also small numbers of other naturalized non-Jews and immigrant workers from Thailand, Philipines, etc. whose citizenship is under dispute.

That sounds like a revolution awaiting to happen. Could it be that Jews were able to keep their nation for so many centuries while they didn't have a territory, but now that they have one they are so fragmented? I mean, it's only expected that multiculturalism would occur sooner or later. That's the reality that they need to face in order to be able to redefine an Israeli identity.

Sorry for the rambling, but I wasn't aware of the diversity of population beyond different country origins and varieties of practice within Judaism.

popcorn_karate 12-03-2010 06:12 PM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 190964)
Nice to see an icon of the lefty media doing even more to expose herself as a demented antisemite. Now just to wait for someone on here to defend her remarks.

zionists are not only jews. many christians are zionists - not to mention rastafarians.

chiwhisoxx 12-03-2010 07:11 PM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by popcorn_karate (Post 191016)
zionists are not only jews. many christians are zionists - not to mention rastafarians.

Er, what's your point? No shit there are lots of people who are zionists who aren't jews. I'm an athiest and a zionist. Who said anything to the contrary? And what does this have to do with Helen Thomas being an anti-semite?

chiwhisoxx 12-03-2010 07:11 PM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 191003)
They have Apartheid Occupier-Only roads.

Your melodrama on this subject makes you hard to engage and take seriously Wonderment.

Wonderment 12-03-2010 07:55 PM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

I'm an athiest and a zionist. Who said anything to the contrary? And what does this have to do with Helen Thomas being an anti-semite?
In the material cited, she never said a word about Jews. How then is she an anti-Semite?

Wonderment 12-03-2010 07:57 PM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

I mean, it's only expected that multiculturalism would occur sooner or later. That's the reality that they need to face in order to be able to redefine an Israeli identity.
Right. The current Zionist model is anachronistic, racist and unsustainable.

operative 12-03-2010 10:33 PM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 191033)
In the material cited, she never said a word about Jews.

Um

"I can call a president of the United States anything in the book but I can't touch Israel, which has Jewish-only roads in the West Bank,"

Maybe she meant to say "Zionist only." But it again illustrates that for Helen Thomas and other antisemites, "Jew" and "Zionist" are interchangeable. They're careful to hide their ugly, bigoted face behind the more accepted "Zionist" most of the time, but like Jeremiah Wright, every once in a while it just slips. And then we see that those tired, bigoted tropes--The Jooooos control Hollywood, Wall Street, American policy, etc. are all there. You can't just substitute in "Zionist" and think that you can deny antisemitism, especially when the veneer lifts. Just like Jooooos won't let Wright see Obama, oh I'm sorry he meant Zionists. I'm sure she meant "Zionist only roads." Too bad they're identical terms in her lexicon.

Time to stop defending antisemites.

Wonderment, I remember you writing that you think the US should not have stopped Nazi Germany. You also wrote that you think it would have been right for you to have taken up arms against Zionists, if you would have had the opportunity. Why are your fellow Jews worse than Nazis in your eyes? This reeks of a suicidal mindset.

Wonderment 12-03-2010 10:58 PM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

Wonderment, I remember you writing that you think the US should not have stopped Nazi Germany. You also wrote that you think it would have been right for you to have taken up arms against Zionists, if you would have had the opportunity. Why are your fellow Jews worse than Nazis in your eyes? This reeks of a suicidal mindset.
I do think WWII could and should have been avoided, but I never said it was right for me to take up arms against anyone, hypothetically or any other way. You are mistaken about that. In fact, it's a crazy idea. On whose behalf would I have fought Zionism? As an uprooted Palestinian?

Moving on, it's insulting that you would claim that I favor Nazis over Jews. Nazism was a perverse and detestable ideology that culminated in the mass murder of millions of people. You are being extremely childish with such an accusation, and I wouldn't bother responding except to remind you to think a little before you post.

operative 12-03-2010 11:02 PM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 191070)
I do think WWII could and should have been avoided, but I never said it was right for me to take up arms against anyone, hypothetically or any other way. You are mistaken about that.

Ah, my apologies. I could've sworn that you had written that "militant Zionism" was a cause worth fighting militarily.

Quote:

Moving on, it's insulting that you would claim that I favor Nazis over Jews. Nazism was a perverse and detestable ideology that culminated in the mass murder of millions of people. You are being extremely childish with such an accusation, and I wouldn't bother responding except to remind you to think a little before you post.
I wouldn't suggest that you were in any way sympathetic to Nazis, certainly. I'm just utterly perplexed at the depth of your disgust toward Zionism.

bjkeefe 12-03-2010 11:07 PM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 190964)
Now just to wait for someone on here to defend her remarks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 191066)
Time to stop defending antisemites.

Well, make up your mind. Which do you want?

What's the point of inviting discussion if as soon as someone accepts, you tell him to shut up?

Wonderment 12-03-2010 11:17 PM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

Ah, my apologies.
Thank you.

Quote:

I wouldn't suggest that you were in any way sympathetic to Nazis, certainly. I'm just utterly perplexed at the depth of your disgust toward Zionism.
I'm equally perplexed at the depth of your sympathy toward Zionism.

Having said that, my view, as a non-Zionist, is that Zionism is obsolete. Israel needs to become a post-Zionist country. That is what's good for the Jewish people.

chiwhisoxx 12-03-2010 11:27 PM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 191073)
Well, make up your mind. Which do you want?

What's the point of inviting discussion if as soon as someone accepts, you tell him to shut up?

You're going to complain about me monitoring your behavior again, but you do this all the time. "I can already hear the wingnuts furiously pounding their keyboards..."

bjkeefe 12-03-2010 11:31 PM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx (Post 191078)
You're going to complain about me monitoring your behavior again, but you do this all the time. "I can already hear the wingnuts furiously pounding their keyboards..."

Anticipating a likely idiotic response, especially with a tone of humor, is not the same as telling people to STFU. And to the degree that I am not just mocking, and that there is a serious intent underlying, it could be put this way: "I already know what the stock answer is. Show me something more interesting."

operative 12-03-2010 11:35 PM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 191080)
Anticipating a likely idiotic response, especially with a tone of humor, is not the same as telling people to STFU. And to the degree that I am not just mocking, and that there is a serious intent underlying, it could be put this way: "I already know what the stock answer is. Show me something more interesting."

I wasn't inviting people to defend her, because I think her statements are indefensible. I was observing that there are some people who will persist on defending her. I'd much rather that everyone realize that she is a nasty, bigoted, terrible person.

bjkeefe 12-03-2010 11:40 PM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 191082)
I wasn't inviting people to defend her, because I think her statements are indefensible. I was observing that there are some people who will persist on defending her. I'd much rather that everyone realize that she is a nasty, bigoted, terrible person.

Oh, crap. You posted your provocative statements in an open forum. Of course you were inviting responses, especially of a contradictory nature. And if you don't realize that, you're really hurting.

operative 12-03-2010 11:46 PM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 191085)
Oh, crap. You posted your provocative statements in an open forum. Of course you were inviting responses, especially of a contradictory nature.

I was hoping that'd come from folks saying "no we're not going to defend her."

Wonderment 12-03-2010 11:49 PM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

I wasn't inviting people to defend her, because I think her statements are indefensible. I was observing that there are some people who will persist on defending her. I'd much rather that everyone realize that she is a nasty, bigoted, terrible person.
There are a lot of nasty people in the world. The fact that you chose her as a spokesperson against Zionism was odd to begin with. Why not choose someone with serious ideas to debate, perhaps someone who has written a good book on the subject?

Thomas is an eccentric 90-year-old who has been caricatured and patronized by the current president and his two predecessors. She is known mainly for breaking the glass ceiling of the male presidential press corps and for longevity. That's all.

bjkeefe 12-03-2010 11:50 PM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 191088)
I was hoping that'd come from folks saying "no we're not going to defend her."

If it's an echo chamber you seek, you'd be better off looking elsewhere.

I don't actually believe you're not smart enough to realize that the Bhtv community isn't populated only with people who are going to applaud your pronouncements and accept them without question. Therefore, it seems you are either being disingenuous at this moment, or you have forgotten why you came here in the first place.

Wonderment 12-03-2010 11:52 PM

P.S.
 
Happy Birthday!

bjkeefe 12-03-2010 11:53 PM

Re: P.S.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 191095)

Awwww!

Great pic.

operative 12-03-2010 11:55 PM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 191090)
There are a lot of nasty people in the world. The fact that you chose her as a spokesperson against Zionism was odd to begin with. Why not choose someone with serious ideas to debate, perhaps someone who has written a good book on the subject?

I guess the same reason bj has an obsessively maintained thread on Sarah Palin ;)

operative 12-03-2010 11:56 PM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 191091)
If it's an echo chamber you seek, you'd be better off looking elsewhere.

Like your Sarah Palin thread :o

Wonderment 12-04-2010 12:02 AM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

I guess the same reason bj has an obsessively maintained thread on Sarah Palin
Apples and oranges. Sarah Palin is a serious contender for the Republican nomination for president in 2012. She deserves a lot of critical attention.

chiwhisoxx 12-04-2010 12:03 AM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 191080)
Anticipating a likely idiotic response, especially with a tone of humor, is not the same as telling people to STFU. And to the degree that I am not just mocking, and that there is a serious intent underlying, it could be put this way: "I already know what the stock answer is. Show me something more interesting."

Fair enough. I'm not a huge fan of either, personally, but I certainly see the distinction.

bjkeefe 12-04-2010 12:05 AM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx (Post 191103)
Fair enough. I'm not a huge fan of either, personally, but I certainly see the distinction.

Appreciate it.

bjkeefe 12-04-2010 12:06 AM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 191098)
Like your Sarah Palin thread :o

No. Anyone who wants is welcome to dispute what I post there. I don't put up the items I do merely to get people to clap along.

bjkeefe 12-04-2010 12:09 AM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 191100)
Apples and oranges. Sarah Palin is a serious contender for the Republican nomination for president in 2012. She deserves a lot of critical attention.

Correct.

I'd also say it's hardly "obsessively maintained," as the operative would have it. I am not sure of the limitations of his skills, but I would have thought the notion of cutting and pasting occasional items as one happens across them would not have seemed to him to be such an arduous task.

operative 12-04-2010 12:29 AM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 191105)
No. Anyone who wants is welcome to dispute what I post there. I don't put up the items I do merely to get people to clap along.

Yes, this is a forum loaded with Palin advocates.

operative 12-04-2010 12:29 AM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 191100)
Apples and oranges. Sarah Palin is a serious contender for the Republican nomination for president in 2012. She deserves a lot of critical attention.

I think anyone deserves criticism when they spout something worthy of criticism, whether they're a political celebrity or a journalist.

chiwhisoxx 12-04-2010 12:31 AM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Getting back to the broader topic, since the thread got a little bit off track. In terms of whether Thomas is an anti-semite, that doesn't seem like a debate we're equipped to adjudicate. My issue comes from the framing. It seems like the problematic thing here is that she frames the people who run the government as zionists first, rather than people who do other things, and happen to be zionists. I think when you make it seem like zionism is so incredibly central to their worldview, it feeds a darker narrative about Jews controlling things that has been around for too long. Liberals (correctly in some cases) say conservatives are obtuse and insensitive to matters of racism. I think there are cases when liberals are obtuse and insensitive about anti-semitism sometimes. That doesn't mean that they're anti-semites, anymore than all conservatives are racists, but it's part of a mindset and has to do with frames of mind. Curious to hear what you all think of this.

graz 12-04-2010 12:54 AM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx (Post 191112)
Getting back to the broader topic, since the thread got a little bit off track. In terms of whether Thomas is an anti-semite, that doesn't seem like a debate we're equipped to adjudicate. My issue comes from the framing. It seems like the problematic thing here is that she frames the people who run the government as zionists first, rather than people who do other things, and happen to be zionists. I think when you make it seem like zionism is so incredibly central to their worldview, it feeds a darker narrative about Jews controlling things that has been around for too long. Liberals (correctly in some cases) say conservatives are obtuse and insensitive to matters of racism. I think there are cases when liberals are obtuse and insensitive about anti-semitism sometimes. That doesn't mean that they're anti-semites, anymore than all conservatives are racists, but it's part of a mindset and has to do with frames of mind. Curious to hear what you all think of this.

That's a compelling way to consider your difficult question. My immediate reaction is that you have to be right in a general sense. But as to the case specifically or with certain individuals, it becomes a greater challenge. Helen Thomas would be a good example of your point, even though you concede that you can't claim her to be an anti-semite conclusively. You've created a riddle of sorts.

rcocean 12-04-2010 01:16 AM

Re: Helen Thomas: 'Jews control teh world!'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 191088)
I was hoping that'd come from folks saying "no we're not going to defend her."

Exactly.

And I hope everyone will respond to my upcoming "Who Defends Child Molesters ?" Thread.

It should be fascinating.


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