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Bloggingheads 11-01-2011 09:07 PM

Foreign Policy Rant Edition (Heather Hurlburt & Daniel Drezner)
 

Wonderment 11-02-2011 01:46 AM

Obama should float like a Mohammad Ali butterfly, not allow butterflies to determine his fate
 
What Heather is neglecting in her analysis of the "butterfly effect" on USA contribution to UN agencies like UNESCO and IAEA, is how the US has not distanced itself from hostile, paranoid and dysfunctional Congressional resolutions of the 1990s regarding Palestine, but rather how the Obama-H.Clinton government has doubled down with biased anti-Palestinian language and actions:

Quote:

"Today's vote by the member states of UNESCO to admit Palestine as member is regrettable, premature and undermines our shared goal of a comprehensive just and lasting peace in the Middle East," said State Department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland.

"The United States will refrain from making contributions to UNESCO," she said.
Heather and Dan also ignore the fact that the USA has PROMISED to veto any SC Resolution for Palestinian statehood. Mere abstaining on the Resolution would guarantee UN membership for Palestine, make moot the funding issues, and force Congress to undo the nonsensical mischief it caused in the 1994.

David Edenden 11-02-2011 09:48 AM

Re: Foreign Policy Rant Edition (Heather Hurlburt & Daniel Drezner)
 
The best description I have heard about EU governance is "a Rube Goldberg contraption". (The US seems to be heading in that direction).

Heather and Daniel:

Why did not the EU make it a condition of aid to Greece, the formation of a government of national unity?

apple 11-02-2011 10:56 AM

Re: Obama should float like a Mohammad Ali butterfly, not allow butterflies to determine his fate
 
Wonderment, as a one-state (Islamic) state supporter you should be thrilled, that the assertion of Arab sovereignty over the West Bank is not being accepted.

David Edenden 11-02-2011 12:22 PM

Christian Zionists
 
From personal experience, I know that Christian Zionists generally believe in the literal truth of the bible, a 5,000 year old earth, that both God and Satan are real and both intervene in human affairs. Therefore 911 was the wrath of God.

And finally they believe that "The Jews" killed Christ (Our Lord and Savior). They don't believe in PERSONALLY discriminating against "The Jews", but "The Jews" deserve what they got, including the Holocaust, based on the "Blood Curse" in Mathew 27-25: "Then the people as a whole answered, "His blood be on us and on our children!"

Any Israeli politician or American Jewish leader who puts their faith in these people is an idiot!

stephanie 11-02-2011 12:26 PM

Re: Foreign Policy Rant Edition (Heather Hurlburt & Daniel Drezner)
 
Good diavlog. It was great to have these two back.

sugarkang 11-02-2011 01:21 PM

Re: Foreign Policy Rant Edition (Heather Hurlburt & Daniel Drezner)
 
Greece, Socialists, only one conclusion.

BornAgainDemocrat 11-02-2011 01:25 PM

Kicking the can
 
Waves of euphoria followed by waves of paranoia. Which will the last wave be?

bjkeefe 11-02-2011 01:28 PM

"13 Biggest Foreign Policy Blunders of the GOP Field"
 
Here's The Atlantic piece Dan mentioned at about 33-34 min in. Hard to say whether it's more entertaining or frightening.

osmium 11-02-2011 01:33 PM

Re: Foreign Policy Rant Edition (Heather Hurlburt & Daniel Drezner)
 
Dan's on fire in this one.

Wonderment 11-02-2011 03:06 PM

Re: Obama should float like a Mohammad Ali butterfly, not allow butterflies to determine his fate
 
Quote:

Wonderment, as a one-state (Islamic) state supporter
Apple, I believe this is the third time I've ask you not to randomly make up lies about me. Give it some consideration. Everyone who knows me on this board knows what you have stated is a ridiculous lie. It doesn't enhance your credibility to promulgate obvious and absurd falsehoods.

Wonderment 11-02-2011 03:11 PM

Re: Foreign Policy Rant Edition (Heather Hurlburt & Daniel Drezner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by osmium (Post 230217)
Dan's on fire in this one.

Both were fiery, which was fun. I really like both of them.

But Heather needs to come to her senses on Venezuela. The death of Hugo Chávez would not be a big deal for the USA. It certainly can't be said in the same breathe as 9/11 terrorist attack, N. Korean nuke event or Euro meltdown, which she did.

Also, this was Ha-Aretz's headline story yesterday, which neither Dan nor Heather had on the "Holy Fuck!" radar.

dieter 11-02-2011 06:18 PM

The 2013 German elections are irrelevant; Opposition no longer exists in Germany
 
Heather Hurlburt and Daniel Drezner incorrectly assume that the overwhelming rejection of the Euro-bailout among regular Germans will cause trouble for Merkel and the Eurozone.

For that to happen, there would have to be an opposition that is willing to listen to popular sentiment. But such an opposition does not exist in the Bundestag.

The Social Democrats and the Greens keep haranging Merkel for not having acted faster and bolder and keep demanding that even more souvereignty be confered to the EU and its supra-national institutions.

Merkel had to armwrestle the skeptics among the MEPs of the coalition parties. The Greens and the Social Democrats on the other hand voted almost unanimously in favor.

The Left party voted against the EFSF, but only out of idiosyncratic reasons. They want regulation and nationalization of banks in return, but are not opposed to shoveling of tax payer money out of the country or to ceding sovereignty at all.

Merkel's policies are if anything challenged by the aformentioned skeptics in her own party, who are closest to popular sentiment. But if Merkel is good at anything, it is to solidify her power within the CDU and to purge dissident groups with bullying and other means. (A skill that she probably learned in the former GDR during her training to become a communist apparatschik).

apple 11-02-2011 06:28 PM

Re: Obama should float like a Mohammad Ali butterfly, not allow butterflies to determine his fate
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 230218)
Apple, I believe this is the third time I've ask you not to randomly make up lies about me.

I'm pretty sure that this is the first time you've said that. Also, that was no lie. You have been very explicit in your support for a "one-state solution" including both the Israelis and the Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza. If you object to the Islamic part, I put that in brackets precisely because it will be an unintended but inevitable result of the policy you advocate.

I also would not make up lies about anyone, especially you. You're very principled, and I respect that, even though I think your beliefs are misguided and utopian.

Sulla the Dictator 11-02-2011 06:39 PM

Re: Foreign Policy Rant Edition (Heather Hurlburt & Daniel Drezner)
 
Europe is the end result of the project our own technocrats, and their liberal allies, have in mind for the United States. A system where social democracy isn't debated, just the methods and the degree. Its the way to ensure a bloated civil service at the same time eliminating all real political opposition.

Don Zeko 11-02-2011 07:36 PM

Re: Foreign Policy Rant Edition (Heather Hurlburt & Daniel Drezner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator (Post 230231)
Europe is the end result of the project our own technocrats, and their liberal allies, have in mind for the United States. A system where social democracy isn't debated, just the methods and the degree. Its the way to ensure a bloated civil service at the same time eliminating all real political opposition.

If this is the case, then why aren't Germany and France, with their huge welfare states, in just as much trouble as Greece? How has Iceland been able to bounce back when Portugal, Greece, Spain and Italy have not? Why is excess democratic input threatening to sink the whole enterprise? Europe isn't a big political rorshach test, it's a real place with real problems that are threatening to spill over into the US.

Sulla the Dictator 11-02-2011 08:09 PM

Re: Foreign Policy Rant Edition (Heather Hurlburt & Daniel Drezner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 230232)
If this is the case, then why aren't Germany and France, with their huge welfare states, in just as much trouble as Greece?

Because the European Union can also be known as a German trading bloc. Ten percent of all German goods sold in France. 7% in Italy. 6% in the Netherlands. Belgium, and Austria each, and it goes on like that. Almost 50% of German trade is done within the EU, which is why Germany is the world's second largest exporter. Spread that out over Europe and you see Germany's interest in the experiment; European consumerism is why they can afford a bloated welfare state. The European Union has done what WWI couldn't; establish a German dominated economic sphere where Europeans adopt the Deutschmark to purchase German exports.

Though, to be frank, your premise is wrong. Germany is in as much trouble as Greece, just not yet. Like many diseases, this one takes some time to work to the heart. The exposure of German banks, and to an even greater degree French banks, to these sovereign debt issues in the PIIGS is extraordinary. 146 billion euros in exposure just for German banks and just for Spain. 114 billion euros in exposure to Ireland. And on it goes like that.

Quote:

How has Iceland been able to bounce back when Portugal, Greece, Spain and Italy have not?
In what sense has Iceland "bounced back"? It has stopped bleeding, but that's because all of the damage that could be done was done.

Quote:

Why is excess democratic input threatening to sink the whole enterprise?
Because technocrats are not fans of democratic input.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-govx9CdOA

Quote:

Europe isn't a big political rorshach test, it's a real place with real problems that are threatening to spill over into the US.
Correct, it isn't a Rorschach test. It can only be interpreted for what it is; and four years ago it was being pushed as a model for the United States. Indeed, the left used to openly advocate for social democracy, and did it on bloggingheads.tv

Wonderment 11-02-2011 08:21 PM

Re: Obama should float like a Mohammad Ali butterfly, not allow butterflies to determine his fate
 
Quote:

I also would not make up lies about anyone, especially you. You're very principled, and I respect that, even though I think your beliefs are misguided and utopian.
Thank you. I understand why you view what you wrote as truthful. The reason I see it as untruthful is that I am NOT a supporter of an Islamic or "Islamist" state anywhere (which is what you suggested), much less in Palestine where Jews, Muslims, Christians and secularists have solid democratic traditions that will not make the transition to One State nearly as challenging as it might be in other regions of the world.

I have insisted umpteen thousand times, as I'm sure you know, that I only support a SECULAR, DEMOCRATIC state achieved through nonviolence.

dieter 11-02-2011 08:31 PM

Re: Foreign Policy Rant Edition (Heather Hurlburt & Daniel Drezner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator (Post 230233)
Because the European Union can also be known as a German trading bloc. Ten percent of all German goods sold in France. 7% in Italy. 6% in the Netherlands. Belgium, and Austria each, and it goes on like that. Almost 50% of German trade is done within the EU, which is why Germany is the world's second largest exporter. Spread that out over Europe and you see Germany's interest in the experiment; European consumerism is why they can afford a bloated welfare state.

That's nonsense. PIIGS-consumerism is a huge burden on Germany's public and private incomes. Since the introduction of the Euro, the loss amounts to about 10% of GDP per annum.

The current state of affairs is clearly contrary to Germany's national interest. And that is not surprising, given the self-hatred of German elites.

You are correct in a structural sense though. The fanatical German drive towards self-abolishion by tying itself to Europe, results conversely in Europe being increasingly strangled and dominated by Germany. Other nations were complicit, because it served their short term interests. The PIIGS had a enjoyed a decade of gluttony, which turned to crapulence. The Euro, in its current composition is a mutual negative sum game.

apple 11-02-2011 09:30 PM

Re: Obama should float like a Mohammad Ali butterfly, not allow butterflies to determine his fate
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 230235)
Thank you. I understand why you view what you wrote as truthful. The reason I see it as untruthful is that I am NOT a supporter of an Islamic or "Islamist" state anywhere (which is what you suggested), much less in Palestine where Jews, Muslims, Christians and secularists have solid democratic traditions that will not make the transition to One State nearly as challenging as it might be in other regions of the world.

I have insisted umpteen thousand times, as I'm sure you know, that I only support a SECULAR, DEMOCRATIC state achieved through nonviolence.

Obviously, someone who is troubled by any sort of violence isn't going to be a supporter of an Islamic state. I did not mean to suggest that you were. Unfortunately, things do not always unfold according to one's wishes. As much as I favor the establishment of a secular, democratic state in Libya, it appears that I will soon be forced to face the reality that the NATO intervention I supported will lead to the establishment of an Islamic state.

apple 11-02-2011 09:31 PM

Re: Foreign Policy Rant Edition (Heather Hurlburt & Daniel Drezner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dieter (Post 230236)
That's nonsense. PIIGS-consumerism is a huge burden on Germany's public and private incomes. Since the introduction of the Euro, the loss amounts to about 10% of GDP per annum.

This sounds absurd. Did you mean 10% of GDP growth?

Diane1976 11-02-2011 09:32 PM

Re: Foreign Policy Rant Edition (Heather Hurlburt & Daniel Drezner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 230232)
If this is the case, then why aren't Germany and France, with their huge welfare states, in just as much trouble as Greece? How has Iceland been able to bounce back when Portugal, Greece, Spain and Italy have not? Why is excess democratic input threatening to sink the whole enterprise? Europe isn't a big political rorshach test, it's a real place with real problems that are threatening to spill over into the US.

Another place with debt issues is Ireland, and they were the darling of the right recently.

I guess it's more complicated. I haven't had much luck finding anything really substantial on what's going on in Europe, but, as I understand it, so far, the problem is that it's not a single country with a single currency, and so it can't easily manipulate its money to resolve financial issues. So, that makes it difficult for them to deal with this issue. The central bank doesn't have the freedom to act that, say, the Federal Reserve would.

Wonderment 11-02-2011 10:00 PM

Re: Obama should float like a Mohammad Ali butterfly, not allow butterflies to determine his fate
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 230239)
Obviously, someone who is troubled by any sort of violence isn't going to be a supporter of an Islamic state. I did not mean to suggest that you were.

Thanks for clarifying.

Quote:

Unfortunately, things do not always unfold according to one's wishes. As much as I favor the establishment of a secular, democratic state in Libya, it appears that I will soon be forced to face the reality that the NATO intervention I supported will lead to the establishment of an Islamic state.
Perhaps you'll learn your lesson about supporting military interventions.

Has President Obama had a comment about this:

Quote:

In his first major speech as head of the interim government, Mustafa Abdel Jalil, who heads the National Transitional Council, declared that any law that doesn’t respect sharia will be deemed illegal, starting with marriage and divorce. His first move will be to strike down the Gadhafi law prohibiting polygamy. In another disturbing decision, the council appointed a former jihadist, Abdel Hakim Belhadj, as military governor of Tripoli.
Or perhaps there's so much to celebrate in this(Abdurraheem el-Keib), that he's not paying attention to the bad news.

dieter 11-02-2011 10:01 PM

Re: Foreign Policy Rant Edition (Heather Hurlburt & Daniel Drezner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 230240)
This sounds absurd. Did you mean 10% of GDP growth?

No.

This is due to lack of currency appreciation and the higher real interest rates since the introduction of the Euro. It used to be that the Deutschmark would appreciate every couple of years. This boosted real incomes. The Germans also enjoyed low real interest rates and low inflation at the same time.

Direct payments to the EU and the ESFS make up only a small fraction of the cost. There is also a significant transfer going on within the ECB.

harkin 11-02-2011 11:11 PM

Re: Christian Zionists
 
Regarding Europe, only one person mentions Ireland, and that as a "darling of the right". This may have something to do with the fact that a year ago the Keynesians said it was headed for disaster due to austerity measures. 12 months later those such as Paul Krugman are scrambling for answers and common sense is slowly prevailing. It's still in trouble but the lefties were profoundly wrong in their predictions.

"British growth is sluggish, but so is that of "stimulated" America. It looks like the key to growth is not government spending, but ease of doing business. It's a pity the Chancellor and the rest of the Coalition only know half that story."

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Edenden (Post 230210)
From personal experience, I know that Christian Zionists generally believe in the literal truth of the bible, a 5,000 year old earth, that both God and Satan are real and both intervene in human affairs. Therefore 911 was the wrath of God.

And finally they believe that "The Jews" killed Christ (Our Lord and Savior). They don't believe in PERSONALLY discriminating against "The Jews", but "The Jews" deserve what they got, including the Holocaust, based on the "Blood Curse" in Mathew 27-25: "Then the people as a whole answered, "His blood be on us and on our children!"

Any Israeli politician or American Jewish leader who puts their faith in these people is an idiot!

I know many christians, many of them also believe that the Jews were so persecuted in the 30s and 40s that an Israeli homeland was a just result (which I assume makes them what you call "zionists").

Never once have I heard any of these people say that the jews deserved the holocaust (you didn't say how they feel regarding the culpability of gypsies, homosexuals, communists, resistance-types or the mentally deficient, the other major victims of nazism).

Just for grins I called a minister I know and asked him about this. He was familiar with the passage and said that some indeed correlate this to a curse upon the jews, not an excuse to abuse them. He also said anyone reading it as Christians believing that the jews deserve misfortune are just as wrong as anyone believing that a child who gets cancer deserves it or a person run over by a car deserves it. btw he supports Israel and believes the earth is several billion years old. He does however believe in good and evil and that they are manifest in the soul and the mind.

In short, anyone using this as proof that all christians who support Israel also believe that the victims of the holocaust deserved what they got is also a victim of limited thinking.

Sulla the Dictator 11-02-2011 11:40 PM

Re: Foreign Policy Rant Edition (Heather Hurlburt & Daniel Drezner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dieter (Post 230236)
That's nonsense. PIIGS-consumerism is a huge burden on Germany's public and private incomes. Since the introduction of the Euro, the loss amounts to about 10% of GDP per annum.

Where did you get this figure?

badhatharry 11-03-2011 12:05 AM

Re: Foreign Policy Rant Edition (Heather Hurlburt & Daniel Drezner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by David Edenden (Post 230198)
The best description I have heard about EU governance is "a Rube Goldberg contraption". (The US seems to be heading in that direction).

Please tell us of any governance that is not a Rube Goldberg contraption. It's the nature of the beast. I remember all of the caveats and conditions I improvised as my daughter made her way through high school. She blithely ignored everything except the amount of her allowance.

Sulla the Dictator 11-03-2011 01:25 AM

Re: Foreign Policy Rant Edition (Heather Hurlburt & Daniel Drezner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator (Post 230257)
Where did you get this figure?

This list seems to contradict your theory about the great sacrifice Germany has made for Europe:

http://tradeforecast.biz/en/macroeco...ces-us-dollars

dieter 11-03-2011 05:57 AM

Re: Foreign Policy Rant Edition (Heather Hurlburt & Daniel Drezner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator (Post 230265)
This list seems to contradict your theory about the great sacrifice Germany has made for Europe:

http://tradeforecast.biz/en/macroeco...ces-us-dollars

Real wages stagnated and declined. Municipalities can't afford to fix their infrastructure. Pensions and the welfare state have been slashed under the Red-Green coalition.

My sources are Dieter Spethmann (former CEO of Thyssen-Krupp), who wrote a book on the subject, Hans-Olaf Henkel (former head of the industrialists association; pushed Germany into the Euro, has seen the error of his ways), Hans-Werner Sinn (most prominent economist of Germany), prominent economists Wilhelm Hankel, Joachim Starbatty, Wilhelm Nölling...

This is very simple. Exports (producing stuff and shipping it to other countries) only make you rich, if you get valuable imports in return.

The Chinese are suppressing their exchange rate. This means that they are giving us stuff below cost. The burden for this is placed on the Chinese consumer and worker, who can't consume as much for the fruit of his labor, as he otherwise would be with an appreciating currency. This makes sense for China in the long run though, since it allows China to acquire Capital and Know-how quickly.

The Euro has the same effect on German public and private consumption, just without the long term benefit. Germany has capital and Know-how.

Also, as I noted in another post, real interest rates have been higher since the introduction than they would have been, if Germany had kept the Deutschmark.

Florian 11-03-2011 08:49 AM

Re: Foreign Policy Rant Edition (Heather Hurlburt & Daniel Drezner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dieter (Post 230273)
This is very simple. Exports (producing stuff and shipping it to other countries) only make you rich, if you get valuable imports in return.

The Chinese are suppressing their exchange rate. This means that they are giving us stuff below cost. The burden for this is placed on the Chinese consumer and worker, who can't consume as much for the fruit of his labor, as he otherwise would be with an appreciating currency. This makes sense for China in the long run though, since it allows China to acquire Capital and Know-how quickly.

The Euro has the same effect on German public and private consumption, just without the long term benefit. Germany has capital and Know-how.

Also, as I noted in another post, real interest rates have been higher since the introduction than they would have been, if Germany had kept the Deutschmark.

Since, as you noted earlier, 50% of German trade is with other EU countries, I am somewhat surprised to hear you blaming China for low rates of consumption in Germany. If exports only "make you rich" if you can purchase valuable goods from your trading partners, Germans could become richer by purchasing more luxury goods from France (for example).

Isn't the problem that Germans have an idea of wealth that puts more emphasis on savings than consumption?

Winspur 11-03-2011 03:41 PM

Re: Foreign Policy Rant Edition (Heather Hurlburt & Daniel Drezner)
 
10:20 I find it sad that Daniel cannot stomach the "do the right thing" arguments that some of his students are putting forward.

So much of great political leadership IS about just doing the right thing, not kicking the can down the road, compounding problems and expecting future generations to solve them.

Perhaps these students will never be good diplomats, but I hope they continue to be involved in politics. Their idealism is desperately needed.

dieter 11-03-2011 04:47 PM

I didn't blame China
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Florian (Post 230277)
Since, as you noted earlier, 50% of German trade is with other EU countries, I am somewhat surprised to hear you blaming China for low rates of consumption in Germany.

No, I did not blame China. I used China as an example to illustrate the relationship between Germany and the rest of the Eurozone. I did this, because Americans understand that China subsidizes its exports vis-ŕ-vis the rest of the World via currency exchange rate suppression.

The Chinese are bestowing us with free widgets in order to entice our corporations to set up shop in China. We, the consumers profit from this, not the producers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Florian (Post 230277)
If exports only "make you rich" if you can purchase valuable goods from your trading partners, Germans could become richer by purchasing more luxury goods from France (for example).

Isn't the problem that Germans have an idea of wealth that puts more emphasis on savings than consumption?

You mean the problem that South Europeans put more emphasis on consumption than on savings? ;-)

The Germans can't afford French luxury goods because of declining wages: http://www.social-europe.eu/wp-conte...Euro-area1.jpg

Germans are traditionally modest, when it comes to wage negotiations. Southerners on the other hand traditionally demand to much. Appreciation of the Deutschmark and depreciation of southern currencies currencies used to balance these different behaviours in the past.

apple 11-03-2011 06:09 PM

Re: Foreign Policy Rant Edition (Heather Hurlburt & Daniel Drezner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dieter (Post 230244)
No.

This is due to lack of currency appreciation and the higher real interest rates since the introduction of the Euro. It used to be that the Deutschmark would appreciate every couple of years. This boosted real incomes. The Germans also enjoyed low real interest rates and low inflation at the same time.

Direct payments to the EU and the ESFS make up only a small fraction of the cost. There is also a significant transfer going on within the ECB.

Appreciation does not boost real incomes, only nominal incomes, unless you're importing all your stuff.

But if I understand you correctly, you're arguing that if it were not for the euro, Germany would be having 12% GDP growth a year?

dieter 11-03-2011 07:17 PM

Re: Foreign Policy Rant Edition (Heather Hurlburt & Daniel Drezner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 230308)
Appreciation does not boost real incomes, only nominal incomes, unless you're importing all your stuff.

It did in Germany in the past, because it allowed Germans to import more in return for their exports, or spend money abroad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 230308)
But if I understand you correctly, you're arguing that if it were not for the euro, Germany would be having 12% GDP growth a year?

No, I am not talking about GDP growth, although growth was depressed as well. Germany had the lowest investment rate in Europe during the 2000s, because German savings were invested abroad. This effect has reversed since the onset of the Euro crisis.

I am arguing that Germans would have been able to consume 10% more each year on average than they actually did. That doesn't directly translate into GDP either. Germans travel a lot and that would have added to the GDP of other nations.

yoavgal@earthlink.net 11-04-2011 02:03 AM

Re: Foreign Policy Rant Edition (Heather Hurlburt & Daniel Drezner)
 
Did Heather Hurlburt actually said (like, three times) that the Palestinians moves in the UN are an attempt to get the Israelis “back to the negotiating table”? What is she talking about? The Palestinians are the ones refusing to negotiate, not the Israelis. (In fact, Abbas has been running away from direct negotiation ever since he got an offer that answered all his demands minus a wholesale “right of return” from Israel’s former PM.) Abbas in incapable of signing any agreement, so he can’t afford to negotiate either. That is the meaning of his UN campaign. It’s just amazing how the narrative of demonizing Israel is so ingrained that Ms Hurlburt can just state this obvious untruth as a matter of fact, and Mr. Drezner doesn’t even bother to correct her.

opposable_crumbs 11-04-2011 06:12 PM

Re: Foreign Policy Rant Edition (Heather Hurlburt & Daniel Drezner)
 
Heather and Dan seemed to acknowledge that the Israelis will not do what is being asked of them by the Palestinians, despite all the cajoling at the UN.

The PA has set a precondition to negotiations, and that is Israel must freeze it's illegal settlement programme. Even such a freeze is not really a freeze as last time East Jerusalem was exempt as where a number of existing settlement projects.

Israel's response was to announce more settlements and freeze the PAs own tax revenues, money it spends on security which benefits the Israelis!

Currently the settlers number around 500,000 and Netanyahu has recently 'legalised' all previously illegal settlements built on Palestinian public land, which does beg the question as to whether Palestinians have any rights in their own land and when will ordinary Israels start objecting to this policy. A recent law was passed in Israel which made anyone calling for a boycott of the settlements liable to legal action, so maybe that sign full of portent of what is to come.

This sums up the current policy:

http://mondoweiss.net/images/2011/11/guidetopeace.jpg

TwinSwords 11-04-2011 06:33 PM

Re: Foreign Policy Rant Edition (Heather Hurlburt & Daniel Drezner)
 
Here's the latest one of these -- the picture showing the ongoing theft of Palestinian land.

Our political discourse is so twisted you're not even allowed to admit the existence of the facts shown here:

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/8...fpalestine.png

And our political culture is so morally depraved that the conservative response to this image is to sit back and grin with delight. Conservatives won't admit it except in private to one another, but they know where this is heading: the totally theft of all of the occupied territories by Israel. That has been the plan for decades. A nice, slow motion program of ethnic cleansing.

Wonderment 11-04-2011 07:24 PM

Re: Foreign Policy Rant Edition (Heather Hurlburt & Daniel Drezner)
 
In the long game, expanding settlements is a good thing. When Settlement withdrawal becomes impossible (as I believe it did around the year 2000), a two-state solution is off the table. Good riddance. Palestinians should reduce their demands to one simple right that everyone can understand: to vote as Israeli citizens.

opposable_crumbs 11-05-2011 12:34 PM

Israel flaps
 
Israel flaps it's own wings and pulls out of UNESCO. The implications of a defunded UNESCO - cuts to it's holocaust education programme.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-0...4/?site=sydney

apple 11-05-2011 12:53 PM

Re: Foreign Policy Rant Edition (Heather Hurlburt & Daniel Drezner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TwinSwords (Post 230396)
Here's the latest one of these -- the picture showing the ongoing theft of Palestinian land.

Our political discourse is so twisted you're not even allowed to admit the existence of the facts shown here:

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/8...fpalestine.png

Wow, if you wage wars of aggression on an innocent country three times and get your backward, sandy ass handed to you, you lose land. Who could have imagined that?

Also, the picture is inaccurate - the settlements have not been formally annexed by Israel. It's funny that what is an "Arab state" magically turns into "Palestine" in 1948. Guess what, "Palestine" was occupied by Jordan and Egypt, but there was no "Palestinian" who ever objected to that military occupation. Funny how things go, isn't it?


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