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Bloggingheads 04-27-2011 11:29 PM

Flat-Out Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)
 

TwinSwords 04-27-2011 11:36 PM

Re: Flat-Out Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)
 
Whoa! Hendrik Hertzberg! Awesome!

Nice job, BHTV!

Can't watch 'till tomorrow, sadly.

nikkibong 04-27-2011 11:53 PM

Re: Flat-Out Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)
 
yay, someone worth listening to! thanks, bob!

added: can we get fallows next, please?

also added: how about patrick smith AND fallows in a double-team?

ginger baker 04-28-2011 12:46 AM

Re: Flat-Out Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)
 
"crazy" really? perhaps they know what their doing? maybe there is a strategy after all? ever think of that?

uncle ebeneezer 04-28-2011 01:24 AM

Re: Flat-Out Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)
 
Not sure, but this might be the piece that Bob wrote on the internet in the early days.

Added: it's pretty delightfully nostalgic!!

And prophetic:
Quote:

All these trends point the same way: the present expansion of the Net's
constituency--from hackers and scientists to regular people-- will persist and
may accelerate. You, too, will probably get sucked into the Net before long.

Tara Davis 04-28-2011 01:47 AM

Re: Flat-Out Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)
 
A guy who once worked for a Fundie peanut farmer who ran the economy into the ground while trying to ramp up coal-burning as an answer to the country's energy & environment problems, now calling former speaker Gingrich "crazy."

Yeah... Gingrich may be a rather tone-deaf politician, and (left or right) most people can find a few things they disagree with him about, but crazy?

Okay. Skipping the rest of this one. See you when you've got Mickey back, Bob.

Wonderment 04-28-2011 02:27 AM

"Crazy" list
 
I won't get into the mental health of the 2012 Republican candidates (tempting as it may be), but any short list of Republican extremists with presidential ambitions should definitely include John Bolton.

Not that the 2008 field was any better, with early favorites denying evolution and the eventual presidential candidate singing about bombing Teheran.

CrowsMakeTools 04-28-2011 03:17 AM

Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)--King of the World
 
Hertzberg claims that Bishop Homer Tomlinson, the "King of the World," ran for President of the Theocratic Party in 1972. Not quite true. Bishop Tomlinson died December 5th, 1968, per the obituary in the newspaper of record, the NYT.

Anyway, I found Rick's lumping of the Donald with former House Speaker Gingrich, a person with a record of political achievement and leadership, somewhat irksome and elitist. Gingrich is quirky, and his contradictory statements about Libya certainly demonstrate a reflexive stubbornness and lack of self awareness that would make him a very bad President. But he does have some serious ideas, and he's not a buffoon. Same can be said, I think, of Ron Paul. Putting these people in the same category as Trump, and Bishop Tomlinson, forestalls an important political argument that requires thoughtful engagement.

badhatharry 04-28-2011 03:18 AM

Re: Flat-Out Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tara Davis (Post 205988)
A guy who once worked for a Fundie peanut farmer who ran the economy into the ground while trying to ramp up coal-burning as an answer to the country's energy & environment problems, now calling former speaker Gingrich "crazy."

http://springfieldfiles.com/albums/signs/0662.JPG

badhatharry 04-28-2011 03:22 AM

Re: Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)--King of the World
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CrowsMakeTools (Post 205990)
Putting these people in the same category as Trump, and Bishop Tomlinson, forestalls an important political argument that requires thoughtful engagement.

Rick probably wanted to forstall and forgo thoughtful engagement. He loathes the right.

jeffmaylortx 04-28-2011 06:36 AM

Obama is as American as Bob Wright - Oh that's not good
 
If we are forced to go down the road of a semi-socialist social system, by likes of people like Robert Wright and Obama, then shouldn't we, as citizens, acquire the right to revoke the citizenship of people like Robert Wright? If I am to be required to pay for him and his progeny (and I think we all now how "productive that group will be), then I demand the right to have them forcibly removed from the United States. The only way a truly paternalistic/socialistic system will work is if we can rid it of the looters and traitors - people like Robert Wright ... and others.

jeffmaylortx 04-28-2011 06:42 AM

Re: "Crazy" list
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 205989)
I won't get into the mental health of the 2012 Republican candidates ....
Not that the 2008 field was any better, with early favorites denying evolution and the eventual presidential candidate singing about bombing Teheran.

Well Republican candidates tend to deny evolution in theory (at least officially) but the Democrats deny it in practice. The Left is in denial about almost every aspect of evolutionary psychology and they are 30 years behind the times in terms of ethnic differences in traits, personality and intelligence.

miceelf 04-28-2011 07:19 AM

Re: "Crazy" list
 
"The Left is in denial about almost every aspect of evolutionary psychology and they are 30 years behind the times in terms of ethnic differences in traits, personality and intelligence."

Because they don't embrace Rushtonian nonsense that was discredited in the scientific community more than 40 years ago???!!

bjkeefe 04-28-2011 09:16 AM

What a great get!
 
Looking forward to this.

graz 04-28-2011 10:22 AM

Re: Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)--King of the World
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 205992)
Rick probably wanted to forstall and forgo thoughtful engagement. He loathes the right.

It's amazing that we all can be looking at the same thing and seeing entirely different pictures.

DenvilleSteve 04-28-2011 10:27 AM

national majority vote would bring country closer to breakup
 
Allowing high population states to overwhelm the process of election of a president would, I think, destroy the country. How can people in rural counties have any representation in the central goverment if the urban centers, their populations growing higher and higher from immigration, are able to overwhelm the popular vote talley?

As it is, people in rural areas are being forced to take on the crushing debt burden of the federal government. People in NYC pay many times more to rent their living space than they do in Iowa. Yet individuals from the city and countryside are responsible for equal shares of the national debt. A debt that is manageable to the urban dweller is crushing to a free range person.

Look how the president elected by the democrat states is pressing ahead on these ambiguous foreign wars. Notice how this recent massacre in Afg is not news in the US? The population from the urban centers vote for war, then the burden of fighting that war is born disproportiantly by other areas of the country.

bkjazfan 04-28-2011 10:32 AM

Re: Flat-Out Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)
 
Throwing the word "crazy" around in such a glib manner could be construed by many as careless and insensitive.

AemJeff 04-28-2011 10:34 AM

Re: Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)--King of the World
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CrowsMakeTools (Post 205990)
Hertzberg claims that Bishop Homer Tomlinson, the "King of the World," ran for President of the Theocratic Party in 1972. Not quite true. Bishop Tomlinson died December 5th, 1968, per the obituary in the newspaper of record, the NYT.

Anyway, I found Rick's lumping of the Donald with former House Speaker Gingrich, a person with a record of political achievement and leadership, somewhat irksome and elitist. Gingrich is quirky, and his contradictory statements about Libya certainly demonstrate a reflexive stubbornness and lack of self awareness that would make him a very bad President. But he does have some serious ideas, and he's not a buffoon. Same can be said, I think, of Ron Paul. Putting these people in the same category as Trump, and Bishop Tomlinson, forestalls an important political argument that requires thoughtful engagement.

That grants a hell of a lot more credit than is due Gingrich, certainly - and I'd say Paul too. "Quirky and reflexively stubborn" is awfully generous toward a guy who thinks direct comparisons between the sitting President of the United States and the Nazis and the Soviet Union is a useful rhetorical gambit. I do love the following quote:

Quote:

It doesn’t matter what I do. People need to hear what I have to say. There’s no one else who can say what I can say. It doesn’t matter what I live.
It's easy to go on for pages like this. Gingrich isn't serious. And while he's smart, who could possibly trust his judgment? Whether he's crazy or just a cynic is an answer I don't have. Ron Paul's inadequacies I'll leave as an exercise for the reader.

DenvilleSteve 04-28-2011 10:38 AM

Re: Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)--King of the World
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CrowsMakeTools (Post 205990)
... Anyway, I found Rick's lumping of the Donald with former House Speaker Gingrich, a person with a record of political achievement and leadership, somewhat irksome and elitist. Gingrich is quirky, and his contradictory statements about Libya certainly demonstrate a reflexive stubbornness and lack of self awareness that would make him a very bad President. But he does have some serious ideas, and he's not a buffoon. Same can be said, I think, of Ron Paul. Putting these people in the same category as Trump, and Bishop Tomlinson, forestalls an important political argument that requires thoughtful engagement.

I think Hertzberg was on the mark. I hear Newt talking too much about the US needing to fight more foreign wars and think he is off the track. Ron Paul has the stage but really has no practical plans for how to govern the country.

I don't think rational, accomplished people want to be bothered with risking all to run for national office. Look how the union thugs and useful left wing idiots are attacking and tormenting the elected representatives in Wisconsin. We are not a united country any more. The fact there are fewer and fewer people of ability who are willing to serve at the national level is evidence of our growing disunity.

bjkeefe 04-28-2011 11:42 AM

Re: Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)--King of the World
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 206005)
That grants a hell of a lot more credit than is due Gingrich, certainly ...

Agreed. To repeat something I said another time someone held him up as a person worthy of respect:

Quote:

Newt Gingrich was best characterized by Jon Chait (a few iterations of the TNR website ago, so no link, sorry):

Quote:

Newt Gingrich is living proof that you can acquire a reputation as a man of ideas merely by insisting with sufficient repetitiveness that you care deeply about ideas. (It helps to occasionally cite some semi-obscure author as a seminal influence. Actually understanding said author is unnecessary.)

He is, and has been ever since he left office in disgrace, just as much of a huckster as The Donald. He pretends to be considering entering races just to get more donations from the mouth-breathers and to pimp his books and other merch. He does not espouse any beliefs except when they are fashionable. His stances on Libya are just the latest example of many. He won't even stand behind things he said less than a year ago.

bjkeefe 04-28-2011 11:50 AM

Re: national majority vote would bring country closer to breakup
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve (Post 206002)
Allowing high population states to overwhelm the process of election of a president would, I think, destroy the country. How can people in rural counties have any representation ...

You should go back and listen, and read some of Rick's posts, because you clearly don't understand the core principle. The whole point of the NPV is to remove the winner-take-all aspect regarding individual states and their electoral votes. In a state with a large population, be it California or Texas, the 45 or so percent of people whose votes pretty much never matter in a presidential election under our current system suddenly matter a great deal. Pretending for a moment that those in rural areas are all the conservative Republicans you imagine them to be, they get representation by virtue of, for example, aligning themselves with the rightward-leaning voters of California and New York.

bjkeefe 04-28-2011 12:02 PM

Re: Flat-Out Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkjazfan (Post 206004)
Throwing the word "crazy" around in such a glib manner could be construed by many as careless and insensitive.

"Could be?" "Construed?" "By many?"

Points for passive-aggressiveness, I guess, but why not try saying what you think? And then we can talk about whether the Republican candidates Rick listed as crazy deserve the tag. It's not that interesting to discuss things with someone who purports to be concerned only on behalf of some nebulous others.

DenvilleSteve 04-28-2011 12:15 PM

Re: national majority vote would bring country closer to breakup
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 206009)
You should go back and listen, and read some of Rick's posts, because you clearly don't understand the core principle. ...

just as a thought experiment, is there anything wrong with the majority of the voters in the USA passing a law that allows anyone from other parts of the world to be able to legally immigrate to the US? Or is it wrong for the majority to authorize the spending of $trillions each year in excess of revenue?

another question. If we had one world government, would you structure representation along the lines of 1 person, 1 vote? Where Asia gets 3 billion votes and the US gets 300 million?

TwinSwords 04-28-2011 12:22 PM

Re: national majority vote would bring country closer to breakup
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve (Post 206012)
Or is it wrong for the majority to authorize the spending of $trillions each year in excess of revenue?

Are you asking whether it was wrong for the Republican Party to do what the Republican Party has been doing for 30 years? Why do you suppose it is that conservatives only start howling about deficits when Democrats are president?

bjkeefe 04-28-2011 12:25 PM

Re: national majority vote would bring country closer to breakup
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve (Post 206012)
just as a thought experiment, is there anything wrong with the majority of the voters in the USA passing a law that allows anyone from other parts of the world to be able to legally immigrate to the US?

Not that I can see.

Quote:

Or is it wrong for the majority to authorize the spending of $trillions each year in excess of revenue?
Ditto, although here I would not be among the majority supporting this as an ongoing proposition.

Quote:

another question. If we had one world government, would you structure representation along the lines of 1 person, 1 vote? Where Asia gets 3 billion votes and the US gets 300 million?
Sure, why not?

DenvilleSteve 04-28-2011 12:26 PM

Re: Flat-Out Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 206011)
... why not try saying what you think? And then we can talk about whether the Republican candidates Rick listed as crazy deserve the tag. ...

I would not say they are crazy. I could also not say republicans like Trump, Sarah and Paul are capable of running the country. But then I don't think Obama is capable of running the country either. Do democrats honestly think the country will prosper under his leadership for another 5 years? Why is he sending those american soldiers in afg to their grave? How can he be so detached to allow that to happen? And the deficit spending. You are arguably crazy to think the deficit spending that is happening today because of medicaid, medicare, social security, ssdi, food stamps is "investment in the future".

AemJeff 04-28-2011 12:27 PM

Re: national majority vote would bring country closer to breakup
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 206014)
...
Sure, why not?

I'm pretty sure they're not real Americans. (And they'll vote en bloc for Socialism!)

DenvilleSteve 04-28-2011 12:33 PM

Re: national majority vote would bring country closer to breakup
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TwinSwords (Post 206013)
Are you asking whether it was wrong for the Republican Party to do what the Republican Party has been doing for 30 years? Why do you suppose it is that conservatives only start howling about deficits when Democrats are president?

we have never seen deficiits this high for so many years projected into the future. Where I think republicans can be faulted is on our foreign trade policy. Allowing so much light manufacturing to be moved to China.

bjkeefe 04-28-2011 12:34 PM

Re: Flat-Out Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve (Post 206015)
[...]

If you actually expect to engage me, you're going to have to learn some self-discipline about staying on topic. Stop throwing everything you have against the wall, hoping something will stick. Or, continue babbling your talking points of the moment, but count on being ignored.

DenvilleSteve 04-28-2011 12:39 PM

Re: national majority vote would bring country closer to breakup
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 206014)
Sure, why not?

Tyranny of the majority is wrong. A nation of people have the right to a country of their own. One group of people, no matter how numerous, should not be able to make decisions that have life altering affects on others.

bjkeefe 04-28-2011 12:54 PM

Re: national majority vote would bring country closer to breakup
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve (Post 206019)
Tyranny of the majority is wrong.

There's a difference between a majority vote (assuming voting goes on regularly) and "tyranny of the majority."

Quote:

Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve (Post 206019)
A nation of people have the right to a country of their own.

Despite what your "news" sources try to terrify you with, you don't have to worry about one world government happening in your lifetime.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve (Post 206019)
One group of people, no matter how numerous, should not be able to make decisions that have life altering affects on others.

This would have more credibility if you weren't singing the exact opposite tune during the Bush Administration.

TwinSwords 04-28-2011 01:00 PM

Re: national majority vote would bring country closer to breakup
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve (Post 206019)
One group of people, no matter how numerous, should not be able to make decisions that have life altering affects on others.

So then how are we going to solve the problem of unaccountable corporate power? Because massive power concentrated in the hands of a very tiny number of individuals in a small number of corporations has a massive, negative impact on the lives of the American people. You do know that corporations are massive totalitarian bureaucracies, right?

stephanie 04-28-2011 01:14 PM

Re: Flat-Out Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkjazfan (Post 206004)
Throwing the word "crazy" around in such a glib manner could be construed by many as careless and insensitive.

Eh, don't be crazy.

(At risk of over-explaining a comment that should stand on its own, seems to me it's thrown around pretty casually everywhere else, why act as if it's some kind of clinical term that needs to be employed only carefully? Generally, I prefer whacko, though.)

bkjazfan 04-28-2011 01:48 PM

Re: Flat-Out Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 206011)
"Could be?" "Construed?" "By many?"

Points for passive-aggressiveness, I guess, but why not try saying what you think? And then we can talk about whether the Republican candidates Rick listed as crazy deserve the tag. It's not that interesting to discuss things with someone who purports to be concerned only on behalf of some nebulous others.

Personally I don't care for the casual use of the word crazy. I'll leave that up to the professionals to ascertain whether one is crazy or not.

In fact, I shy away from calling others names. Having been teased in the past hundreds if not thousands of times for something that was beyond my control I flinch at it. Granted, I slip at times but know it's something that I shouldn't indulge in.

Thanks for the response.

bjkeefe 04-28-2011 02:12 PM

Re: Flat-Out Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkjazfan (Post 206027)
Personally I don't care for the casual use of the word crazy. I'll leave that up to the professionals to ascertain whether one is crazy or not.

As far as I know, mental health professionals do not use that term in any sort of serious clinical sense. Therefore, it seems exclusively in the domain of casual use.

Quote:

In fact, I shy away from calling others names. Having been teased in the past hundreds if not thousands of times for something that was beyond my control I flinch at it. [...]
I'm sorry it's a word that you're personally sensitive to, but I think you ought to get over that. Not only is it extremely widely used, but as Rick used it here, I don't think it's even name-calling. He meant by it a description of the ideas proposed and statements made (by a number of people considered to be candidates for the Republican nomination for president) which are quite at odds with what we might call sensible, reasonable, rational, what have you.

BornAgainDemocrat 04-28-2011 02:47 PM

d

harkin 04-28-2011 02:50 PM

Re: Flat-Out Wonkery (Robert Wright & Hendrik Hertzberg)
 
Nice to see even Dana Milbank calling out Chairman Zero for his grandstanding dishonesty regarding the birth cert special report:

"Sorry to contradict you on your birther day, Mr. President, but you’re wrong. NBC had opted to go live with Obama’s remarks because it had originally expected an announcement of his new national security team, now scheduled for Thursday."

and

"Sorry again, Mr. President, but, according to the Project for Excellence in Journalism, which tracks news coverage, the birther story accounted for all of 4 percent of coverage that week. The top issue was the economy – which claimed 39 percent of coverage – and, in particular, Obama’s budget speech."

Watching the msm cover for this clown would be amusing if not for the reality of the things he'd rather not talk about (while claiming the opposite).

bjkeefe 04-28-2011 02:59 PM

When you're far enough off to the right, everything looks like it's left
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by harkin (Post 206031)
Nice to see even Dana Milbank ...

Wow. That beats eventheliberalNewRepublic.

BornAgainDemocrat 04-28-2011 03:10 PM

x

stephanie 04-28-2011 03:27 PM

Re:
 
Okay, since you deleted I'll delete the response.


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