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-   -   A Modest Accomplishment (Mark Schmitt & Rich Lowry) (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?t=5684)

harkin 08-04-2010 08:49 PM

Re: A Modest Accomplishment (Mark Schmitt & Rich Lowry)
 
Frank Gaffney:

"In Jerusalem, triumphant Muslims built the Al-Aqsa mosque on top of the Jews' revered Temple Mount. They transformed what had been for a thousand years the largest cathedral in Christendom, Constantinople's magnificent St. Sophia basilica, into a sprawling mosque complex. And the Moorish Ummayad dynasty in Spain, made the city of Cordoba its capital, and installed an immense mosque on the site of an ancient Christian church there.

Now, an imam in New York, who has suddenly come into $100 million from undisclosed sources, wants to build a 13-story Islamic Cultural Center adjacent to the site of Shariah's greatest triumph to date in America: Ground Zero, the place where the World Trade Center's twin towers proudly stood until they were destroyed by Shariah-adherent jihadists on September 11, 2001. It is not a coincidence that the imam, Feisal Abdul Rauf, has called his project "the Cordoba House."

Such a mosque on 9/11's hallowed ground would not only constitute a durable, symbolic taunt by our enemies about their bloody victory. In accordance with Shariah, once ground has been taken for Islam, it can never revert to the non-Muslim Dar al-Harb, literally the House of War.

In other words, the Ground Zero mosque is designed to be a permanent, in-our-face beachhead for Shariah, a platform for inspiring the triumphalist ambitions of the faithful and eroding resistence to their demands for separate and (for the moment, at least) equal treatment in America."

harkin 08-04-2010 08:52 PM

Re: The Mosque and New Al Qaeda Video
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by David Edenden
Each negative comment from the conservative pundit/political class is like putting a bulls eye on the back of an American soldier in Iraq and Afghanistan.

And every negative quote about Hitler, Mussolini and Hirohito was like putting a bullseye on the allied soldiers who liberated europe, northern africa and eastern asia.

We should have just rolled over and shown greater tolerance.

bjkeefe 08-04-2010 11:49 PM

Re: The Mosque and New Al Qaeda Video
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by David Edenden (Post 173507)
Am I the only one who sees conservative criticism of Islam in general and the Mosque project in particular as an opportunity for Al Qaeda to string together snippets from various conservative pundits to show that the US is rabidly anti Muslim?

No.

bjkeefe 08-04-2010 11:50 PM

Re: A Modest Accomplishment (Mark Schmitt & Rich Lowry)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by harkin (Post 173605)

'Nuff said.

TwinSwords 08-05-2010 12:43 AM

Re: A Modest Accomplishment (Mark Schmitt & Rich Lowry)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by harkin (Post 173605)
"In Jerusalem, triumphant Muslims built the Al-Aqsa mosque on top of the Jews' revered Temple Mount.

Yes -- between 637 CE and 705 CE -- or 1,373 years ago.

1,373 years ago.


Quote:

Originally Posted by harkin (Post 173605)
They transformed what had been for a thousand years the largest cathedral in Christendom, Constantinople's magnificent St. Sophia basilica, into a sprawling mosque complex.

Yes -- in 1453 -- or 557 years ago.

39 years before Columbus sailed to America, and 166 years before the first English colony introduced slavery to the continent.


Quote:

Originally Posted by harkin (Post 173605)
And the Moorish Ummayad dynasty in Spain, made the city of Cordoba its capital, and installed an immense mosque on the site of an ancient Christian church there.

Yes -- in 784 CE -- or 1,226 years ago.

One thousand, two hundred and twenty six years ago.

And the white conservative rageaholic is still nurturing -- indeed, fostering -- the grievance.

Why conservatives think they have any stake in either side of any of those three conflicts is the real mystery. Are there any other ancient conquests you're still bitter about? And which you want to use as an excuse to deny American citizens' their Constitutional Rights?

The tea baggers are constantly telling us how much the revere the Constitution, but this episode is just the latest reminder that they actually despise it. With hardly a second thought they want to strip away from American citizens rights that are enshrined in the First Amendment.


Quote:

Originally Posted by harkin (Post 173605)
Now, an imam in New York, who has suddenly come into $100 million from undisclosed sources, wants to build a 13-story Islamic Cultural Center adjacent to the site of Shariah's greatest triumph to date in America: Ground Zero, the place where the World Trade Center's twin towers proudly stood until they were destroyed by Shariah-adherent jihadists on September 11, 2001. It is not a coincidence that the imam, Feisal Abdul Rauf, has called his project "the Cordoba House."

Wow. Read over that paragraph -- that deceptive, dishonest, bigoted paragraph. And imagine the frenzy of outrage it engenders in the wingnut hordes.

It takes a real idiot (like Gaffney) to suggest that 9/11 is the work of "Islam." The assertion is just as disingenuous as Al Qaeda's assertion that the destruction of the Iraqi city of Fallujah was the work of Christanity.

The ultraconservative religious extremists in the US and the Arab world are peas in a pod -- each trying desperately to convince their own people that they are engaged in an epic religious battle with the other. The fact is that Christinaity is not implicated by Geoge Bush's war, and Islam is not implicated by the crazed actions of Al Qaeda. The fact that this is not understood by Americans, who because of our values should instinctively know better, is a real cause for sadness.


Quote:

Originally Posted by harkin (Post 173605)
Such a mosque on 9/11's hallowed ground would not only constitute a durable, symbolic taunt by our enemies about their bloody victory. In accordance with Shariah, once ground has been taken for Islam, it can never revert to the non-Muslim Dar al-Harb, literally the House of War.

Pure psychopathy. Absolute, utter, unhinged lunacy.


Quote:

Originally Posted by harkin (Post 173605)
In other words, the Ground Zero mosque is designed to be a permanent, in-our-face beachhead for Shariah, a platform for inspiring the triumphalist ambitions of the faithful and eroding resistence to their demands for separate and (for the moment, at least) equal treatment in America."

Ladies and Gentlemen -- Frank Gaffney -- typical representative of the ascendant and dominant political force in the United States, desperate to impose their own kind of right wing sharia on all of us.

Don Zeko 08-05-2010 01:00 AM

Re: A Modest Accomplishment (Mark Schmitt & Rich Lowry)
 
Nice post.

bjkeefe 08-05-2010 01:59 AM

Far be it from your Republican Party to get hysterical
 
Headline pretty much says it all:

Numbers have always been a problem for the current bunch, haven't they.

badhatharry 08-05-2010 09:32 AM

Re: United Methodist Kind of Muslims
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanie (Post 173536)
I'm really, really bored with the whole D vs. R nature of these discussions, as if every issue had to be slotted into that format and then people fall in line based on what side they are on.

Then you should have enjoyed this and the outcome which occurred yesterday


Quote:

The Clinton vs. Obama aspect of this discussion was especially bizarre in that regard. Clinton only raised taxes slightly, so is good, even though the idea of going back to the Clinton levels is greeted with horror and cries of socialism. Plus, of course, I remember the Clinton administration, and don't recall the right conceding that he was a centrist and just wanted a small and reasonable increase in taxes, etc.
I agree. The republicans don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to spending and big government.

Quote:

I do wonder what the anti-free-trade Republicans (who often seem to line up with the most anti-immigration types) think of the criticism of Obama for not being sufficiently pro free trade, but I suppose anti free trade Republicans have fundamental problems with a bit of the party's ideology, even if the Republicans seem to be able to mostly keep these things damped down.
Lou Dobbs comes to mind when you talk about anti free trade. BTW, what do you mean by anti immigration types? ...anti illegal immigration types? There is a difference.

badhatharry 08-05-2010 09:42 AM

Re: United Methodist Kind of Muslims
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by opposable_crumbs (Post 173524)
Ugly indeed. I wonder if Lowry would support the victims of Klan terror, if they wanted to veto where crosses could be constructed, burning or otherwise.

This doesn't really make sense to me. I haven't actually been following your thread, but are you saying this?: Lowry doesn't support the people who are opposed to the mosque, so let's set up an analogy and ask if would he support victims of Klan crosses against the erection of Klan crosses.

I don't think this works. It has been shown that the Klan does have a right to march peacefully. Any crosses which are erected would have to be erected in a legal space which I think would preclude them from being burning crosses.
I think most people understand and would not be shocked that the first amendment covers Klan speech.

bjkeefe 08-05-2010 03:31 PM

Re: United Methodist Kind of Muslims
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 173481)
And another one to Mike Bloomberg. This is how a real America's Mayor acts.

And don't miss the links at the bottom -- good stuff.

From Jim Newell:


brucds 08-05-2010 04:06 PM

Re: A Modest Accomplishment (Mark Schmitt & Rich Lowry)
 
Good for bloggingheads: in deleting a mildly sarcastic comment, intended as ironic snark, you have established that it is fine - allegedly useful even to such beknighted elites as visitors to the New York Times website - to spend entire segments of diavlogs indulging in stupid insulting commentary and insinuations about Americans of the Muslim faith, but you can't insult yahoo reactionaries posing as "conservatives."

Kudos.

(And the point noted here and elsewhere that these ravers are doing EXACTLY what bin Laden, et. al. would like them to do in response to moderate Muslims, including American citizens, can't be over-emphasized. Fits precisely the "Worse than a crime, it's a blunder!" category of knee-jerk and/or politically opportunistic stupidity. Palin, Giulianni, Gingrich, Foxman, Lowry, Pinkerton, et. al. should be condemned for their assault on core values of the "real America." Wretched crowd... )

Also thanks to Twin Swords for deconstructing Harkin's mad ravings - I've had it with any presumption other than that a certain cohort in our civic discourse has fallen down the rabbit hole of paranoia and resentments, and having hit bottom sound like they've landed on something that comes across as little more than insanity. That an entire cable channel is devoted to ginning this crap up is problematic, but increasingly tiresome to even have to contemplate. In an ideal world, Bloggingheads could function as a bedrock of rational debate with certain boundaries, but seems to be ratings-driven.

brucds 08-05-2010 04:33 PM

Re: A Modest Accomplishment (Mark Schmitt & Rich Lowry)
 
"The idea of cutting taxes on the eve of a war is madness."

Which is all I've come to expect from certain quarters. Aggressive incompetence and narcissistic ignorance, marketed as "conservatism." Damned shame its come to this.

uncle ebeneezer 08-05-2010 09:04 PM

Re: A Modest Accomplishment (Mark Schmitt & Rich Lowry)
 
Guys, might as well stop this debate. The terrorists have ALREADY WON!!1!

stephanie 08-05-2010 09:42 PM

Re: United Methodist Kind of Muslims
 
Quote:

Lou Dobbs comes to mind when you talk about anti free trade. BTW, what do you mean by anti immigration types? ...anti illegal immigration types? There is a difference.
I mean to include both people who are really fixated on illegal immigration and people who are generally against immigration in the numbers we have now whatever kind it is. However, I agree with you that there are differences.

David Edenden 08-07-2010 09:00 AM

Re: The Mosque and New Al Qaeda Video
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by harkin (Post 173606)
And every negative quote about Hitler, Mussolini and Hirohito was like putting a bullseye on the allied soldiers who liberated europe, northern africa and eastern asia.

My family practices "political correctness". Even though my grandfather, as a 15 year old boy in WW2 Greece was, along with all the men in the village taken to the school yard overnight waiting for orders to be SHOT ... he always was at pains to condemn the NAZI FASCISTS, not the Germans.

Bloomberg is right, Guiliani is an Islamaphobe Nazi Fascist!

Whatfur 08-09-2010 11:11 AM

Re: United Methodist Kind of Muslims
 
Honesty.

bjkeefe 08-09-2010 12:52 PM

Re: United Methodist Kind of Muslims
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Whatfur (Post 174273)

Yes. "Addicted to Hate."

stephanie 08-09-2010 01:26 PM

Re: A Modest Accomplishment (Mark Schmitt & Rich Lowry)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by brucds (Post 173756)
(And the point noted here and elsewhere that these ravers are doing EXACTLY what bin Laden, et. al. would like them to do in response to moderate Muslims, including American citizens, can't be over-emphasized. Fits precisely the "Worse than a crime, it's a blunder!" category of knee-jerk and/or politically opportunistic stupidity. Palin, Giulianni, Gingrich, Foxman, Lowry, Pinkerton, et. al. should be condemned for their assault on core values of the "real America." Wretched crowd... )

I think it's good to point out the extent to which a lot of these people are contradicting core American values (something Pinkerton seems to acknowledge and take pride in, with his "and I don't see the point of letting the Nazis march either" response).

However, I don't agree that they should be quiet because otherwise bin Laden might use their comments against us. Our core values include speech of all sorts being free, and the response being more speech. That Pinkerton's comments could be used by bin Laden isn't any more relevant than his supposed fear that the existence of the Cultural Center could be seen as a victory by bin Laden. There's always going to be something that can be taken out of context and used by people with goals and values contrary to ours.


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