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-   -   Will Israel Attack Iran? (Elliot Jager & Larry Derfner) (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?t=7169)

apple 11-13-2011 02:04 PM

Re: Will Israel Attack Iran? (Elliot Jager & Larry Derfner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 231273)
That's not an accurate definition of "moral relativism," though it does seem to be an approximation of the idea of normative relativism.

Considering that Ocean is a self-proclaimed metaethical (prescriptive, normative) moral relativist, it seems that Sulla and I were correct in our pronouncements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 231273)
Sulla was simply using the term as an epithet,

Not really, he was directly responding to Ocean's idea that Ahmadinejad and Khamenei are more sane than Netanyahu and Barak - the sort of claim moral relativists love to make.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 231273)
his strangely orthogonal rant regarding "virtue" notwithstanding. (What's "virtuous" about West Bank settlements or IDF phosphorus bombing, e.g.)

I do not believe we were discussing any of those allegations. But Sulla believes that Israel is a tiny outpost of Western civilization - with our human rights, freedom, democracy - and that this outpost is worth preserving, and that it should not be wiped off the map, as the "more sane" Iranian leaders believe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 231273)
If I were to use the term non-ironically, I'd be trying to describe the idea that every moral claim must be evaluated within a specific context if there's to be any chance to make useful assertions about it. I'd have a hard time, for example, asserting a clear moral comparison in regard to, say, the effects that the careers of Ariel Sharon and Yasser Arafat had on the lives of those who have lived in the region. Does that mean that I think no claim has greater value than any other? I don't think so. It means I think the competing claims are far too complex for my tiny little brain to fairly evaluate.

Whatever that is, and it's not exactly clear to me what you mean by "a certain context", it's not moral relativism.

Sulla the Dictator 11-13-2011 02:05 PM

Re: Will Israel Attack Iran? (Elliot Jager & Larry Derfner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Florian (Post 231319)
I am clear about the difference between Iran and Israel. I am unclear what difference this difference makes to the issue of this diavlog--whether it would be wise to launch a preemptive attack against Iran.

I was commenting on Ocean's declaration that she's little difference between the two states, and AemJeff's defense of such a notion, not the diavlog.

Quote:

Are you suggesting that because Israel is an ally of the US and shares certain values with the US that a preemptive attack, either by the US or Israel, is the right thing to do?
I'm saying that is a tactical question, not a moral one. The moral dimension, the assessment of value, is a settled matter.

apple 11-13-2011 02:05 PM

Re: Will Israel Attack Iran? (Elliot Jager & Larry Derfner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 231303)
He sounds like someone who thinks that the first world war was tragic because some people actually learned from the experience.

Are you done posting your drive-by ad hominem "arguments", avoiding a direct debate because you know you'd lose?

Don Zeko 11-13-2011 02:08 PM

Re: Will Israel Attack Iran? (Elliot Jager & Larry Derfner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 231329)
Are you done posting your drive-by ad hominem "arguments", avoiding a direct debate because you know you'd lose?

I think you forgot to call me a sissy.

Ocean 11-13-2011 02:09 PM

Re: Will Israel Attack Iran? (Elliot Jager & Larry Derfner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 231318)
So are your kumbaya-fantasies about Jews and Muslims. Muslims believe that the following was actually said by the best man who ever lived:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews. (Sahih Moslem Book 041, Number 6985)

Lo and behold, your beloved religion of peace.

Are you such a hammer that everything is the same nail to you?

I defend no religion. None. I'm not religious. We would be better off without religions. Religions when taken to any extreme are poisonous. And people who go extreme, like you, against one particular religion are equally poisonous. Being blind for or against any cause is the problem. And that's one of the main reasons that you can't be taken seriously here. You're so radical and blind that your arguments (even those who have some merit) lose strength.

Quote:

This claim is almost as absurd as your claim about Iranian leaders being more sane than the Israeli ones. Try to be more rational.
I wish you were able to comprehend what you read before jumping to conclusions about what I said.

But I admit, most likely that's not in your agenda. Your agenda is to use any comment, even if remotely associated with your bogeyman, to have an excuse to advertise your puny anti-Muslim song.

apple 11-13-2011 02:09 PM

Re: Will Israel Attack Iran? (Elliot Jager & Larry Derfner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 231268)
I already answered everything that I had to say.

I'm afraid it was not very impressive, or rational, or logical, or even coherent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 231268)
Your bubble is even tinier, though.

So you admit you're in a bubble - it's just that you think you can see (from within that bubble) that I am in an alleged bubble that is smaller? Nice job making my arguments for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 231268)
It doesn't let you take any perspective beyond the "I hate Muslims and therefore I love Israel unconditionally and anything Israel does or says is perfect and wonderful and justified and no one should ever be allowed to express any degree of criticism about Israel and if they do they're monsters". Geez!

Unless you have added me to your ignore list, or perhaps your "ignore whenever convenient" list, you may have noticed that I oppose settlements and think that individuals who murder or vandalize for the "price tag movement" should be executed. Of course, maybe your black-and-white vision of the world doesn't allow for any nuance. You're either with Ocean, or you're against her, if you're against her, she'll automatically count you as supporting "anything Israel does".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 231268)
It is amazing how many here jump full force whenever Israel's position is questioned even in a quite modest fashion.

Did you read your own post, in which you said that Netanyahu and Barak are crazier than Khamenei and Ahmadinejad?

apple 11-13-2011 02:11 PM

Re: Will Israel Attack Iran? (Elliot Jager & Larry Derfner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 231332)
I think you forgot to call me a sissy.

I don't think I need to.

apple 11-13-2011 02:18 PM

Re: Will Israel Attack Iran? (Elliot Jager & Larry Derfner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 231334)
Are you such a hammer that everything is the same nail to you?

Sorry, it's a substantive reply to your utopian dreams of a Jewish-Muslim Brotherhood (no relation) of Man. It seems unlikely that people who believe that they will be required to brutally murder Jews, will be able to peacefully co-exist with Jews and respect their rights.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 231334)
I defend no religion.

I've heard that before. Usually, people who say that deride every single religion, except Islam (and Buddhism, if we consider that to be a religion).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 231334)
Religions when taken to any extreme are poisonous.

Define "extreme". Is it 'extreme Christianity' to follow Jesus and what he said? Is it 'extreme Islam' to follow Muhammad and what he said?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 231334)
You're so radical and blind that your arguments (even those who have some merit) lose strength.

How am I blind? Am I blind to the brilliance and strength of your arguments?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 231334)
I wish you were able to comprehend what you read before jumping to conclusions about what I said.

I don't think I have trouble comprehending anything, Ocean - much less your posts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 231334)
But I admit, most likely that's not in your agenda. Your agenda is to use any comment, even if remotely associated with your bogeyman, to have an excuse to advertise your puny anti-Muslim song.

Not at all. You just don't like that I popped your utopian dreams of a Jewish-Muslim peaceful coexistence.

apple 11-13-2011 02:19 PM

Re: The more things change the more they stay the same.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by opposable_crumbs (Post 231284)
This was a fascinating peek inside the Israel bubble. Iran could get the bomb, linger on the cusp of one, and I don't think much changes. It could embolden their support for groups like Hezzbollah or it could reduce it, but I doubt it means a nuclear attack anytime soon.

Good, Iran will wait a few years before wiping Israel off the map.

Ben Gurion can rest in peace.

thouartgob 11-13-2011 02:22 PM

Re: Will Israel Attack Iran? (Elliot Jager & Larry Derfner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Parallax (Post 231244)

Iran won't get the bomb

Assume that the intelligence services of France, Israel, Saudi Arabia, UK and US are all working in concert to sabotage it. On the other hand look at the players with power inside Iran: Khamenei (Supreme Leader), Ahmadinejad (president), Larijani Brothers (Ali is head of parliament and Sadeq is head of judiciary), Qalibaf (mayor of Tehran and former IRGC commander), Rafsanjani (former president has lost most of his power but still carries some weight). And except Larijanis who are on good terms with Khamenei any pair you pick from that crowd are enemies. With such a fragmentation I am pretty sure CIA et al. have filtrated Iran's nuclear and military programs to the very highest level. For example about 24 hours ago there was a massive explosion near Tehran. BBC reports: "windows in nearby buildings were shattered and the blast was heard in central Tehran, 40 km (25 miles) away". The spokesperson for IRGC said this was an accident when they were trying to move ammunition which begs the question why Brigadier General Hassan Moqaddam, head of IRGC's "self-sufficiency Jihad unit", was among the dead? Maybe he was there loading AK47s in trucks because IRGC is truly revolutionary and ranks don't matter. Another explanation is that the IRGC used to assemble and store long-range Shahab-3 missiles in the site of explosion and the destruction of the missile silo and the death of a high ranking IRGC commander was the result of a successful intelligence operation. If true this would be yet another major blow to IRGC inside Iran. High ranking IRGC officers have a surprisingly low shelf life ...

It would be major overreach for Israel to attack Iran. Here I am taking a page from Parallax but it seems to me that if Israel/US have enough intelligence for targeting this massive attack and effectively gauging the results of such an attack then arguably they have enough intelligence and resources to reduce the need for such an attack, either with sabotage or collution with other parties in Iran.

If they don't have such intelligence why bother with the 1/2 measure of attacking with little info, that would give you the downside of another Iraq type war (with Israel in the mix) plus a perceived failure of Israel/US abilties.

Who is interested in such an outcome ? If the answer is nobody then why all of the mishigas ?

Well one of the things we know is that extremists on both sides are mutually self-supporting entities. To keep themselves in the mix when it comes to power and influence extremist parties need the imminent or chronic threat of the other.

As an example. The extremists in Israel, in the form of certain political parties and the settlers, need the extremists in the form of Hamas or whomever to keep their ideas of what to do in the public eye and to keep their supporters

In the same way who benefits from this bellicose behavior in Iran, in the US and in Israel ?

Sulla the Dictator 11-13-2011 02:25 PM

Re: Will Israel Attack Iran? (Elliot Jager & Larry Derfner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 231323)
Heh. I don't suppose the Austrians or the Turks gained much from Germany's friendship, now did they? But then that brings us back on topic, right? Just as Germany would have been a better friend to Austria by pulling them back from the brink, Americans would be a better friend to Israel if we dissuaded them from their current waltz towards disaster.

Germany wasn't interested in friendship with the Austrians. The Austrians were competitors with Prussia for position in Germany up until 1870. The reason the Germans had no desire for the "Austrians to pull back from the brink" is that the Germans wanted war with Russia for broader strategic reasons.

Don Zeko 11-13-2011 02:33 PM

Re: Will Israel Attack Iran? (Elliot Jager & Larry Derfner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator (Post 231352)
Germany wasn't interested in friendship with the Austrians. The Austrians were competitors with Prussia for position in Germany up until 1870. The reason the Germans had no desire for the "Austrians to pull back from the brink" is that the Germans wanted war with Russia for broader strategic reasons.

Wrong and irrelevant. Do you not agree that Austria would have been better off if Germany hadn't assured them that they would go to war with them if necessary, and therefore Austria hadn't started the war?

Ocean 11-13-2011 02:35 PM

Re: Will Israel Attack Iran? (Elliot Jager & Larry Derfner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 231343)
Sorry, it's a substantive reply to your utopian dreams of a Jewish-Muslim Brotherhood (no relation) of Man. It seems unlikely that people who believe that they will be required to brutally murder Jews, will be able to peacefully co-exist with Jews and respect their rights.

I've heard that before. Usually, people who say that deride every single religion, except Islam (and Buddhism, if we consider that to be a religion).

Define "extreme". Is it 'extreme Christianity' to follow Jesus and what he said? Is it 'extreme Islam' to follow Muhammad and what he said?

Apple, it looks like you have it all figured it out and I really don't know why I'm following this discussion with you. But what the heck, I'll give it a last try while I can.

I can't represent all people that say this or that. I can only tell you that I defend no religion. There are aspects of religious teachings that are admirable. I happen to know of some, mostly within Christianity because that's the religion that I've been, although minimally, exposed to.

Religions, when followed to the extreme that their believers think they are up against some or all others, and that they need to spread their views by expressing hatred and intolerance, are dangerous. People who go against religions with a similar stance, by expressing hatred and intolerance, are also dangerous. Intolerance and hatred are the key elements because they easily lead to violence.

Of course, you don't know what you're talking about when you criticize me on this, because in fact I have been quite vocal against certain aspects of religious groups which are regressive and diminishing to their own (for example the treatment of women within Islam).

Quote:

How am I blind? Am I blind to the brilliance and strength of your arguments?
No, you're blind in your obtuseness whenever Islam or anything remotely related to it comes up as a topic. You go full speed into rants without consideration of any possible grey areas or any attempt to view a slightly different perspective.


Quote:

I don't think I have trouble comprehending anything, Ocean - much less your posts.
If you comprehend so well, you're doing a poor job of demonstrating it since you're accusing me of saying something that I didn't say.

Quote:

Not at all. You just don't like that I popped your utopian dreams of a Jewish-Muslim peaceful coexistence.
You really must be kidding. You popped what? I don't have utopian dreams*, I only have good wishes**. Do you understand the difference between those two?

* an expectation that a highly desirable but unlikely outcome will be true.

** a desire that a favorable outcome was true, even when knowing it's highly unlikely.

Florian 11-13-2011 02:39 PM

Re: Will Israel Attack Iran? (Elliot Jager & Larry Derfner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 231323)
Heh. I don't suppose the Austrians or the Turks gained much from Germany's friendship, now did they? But then that brings us back on topic, right? Just as Germany would have been a better friend to Austria by pulling them back from the brink, Americans would be a better friend to Israel if we dissuaded them from their current waltz towards disaster.

I would hope that Americans would be more intelligent than Germans (Prussians), but you never know....

thouartgob 11-13-2011 02:39 PM

Re: Will Israel Attack Iran? (Elliot Jager & Larry Derfner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kezboard (Post 231251)
THIS. IS. SPARTA!!

We're actually talking about the future of the world here, not a morality play.

Lets not judge here. What he does with his copies of 300 and Top Gun in the privacy of his own bedroom or survivor shelter is his own business. :)

Ocean 11-13-2011 02:44 PM

Re: Will Israel Attack Iran? (Elliot Jager & Larry Derfner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 231335)
I'm afraid it was not very impressive, or rational, or logical, or even coherent.

So you admit you're in a bubble - it's just that you think you can see (from within that bubble) that I am in an alleged bubble that is smaller? Nice job making my arguments for me.

Unless you have added me to your ignore list, or perhaps your "ignore whenever convenient" list, you may have noticed that I oppose settlements and think that individuals who murder or vandalize for the "price tag movement" should be executed. Of course, maybe your black-and-white vision of the world doesn't allow for any nuance. You're either with Ocean, or you're against her, if you're against her, she'll automatically count you as supporting "anything Israel does".

Did you read your own post, in which you said that Netanyahu and Barak are crazier than Khamenei and Ahmadinejad?

You're crazy or lying or both. Read the multiple posts that I wrote here clarifying what I said. If you can't get the above ideas out of your head, I suggest you go see a physician instead of continuing your "Ocean said... blah, blah, blah,... and Ocean... more blah, blah...and blah."

Not worth continuing this discussion, apple. And yes, you are on my ignore list, which I consider a great tool in this forum, with the exception that from time to time, one has to read some post from those in the ignore list to be able to follow a conversation that includes more worthy commenters.

Sulla the Dictator 11-13-2011 02:58 PM

Re: Will Israel Attack Iran? (Elliot Jager & Larry Derfner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zeko (Post 231355)
Wrong and irrelevant.

The second line of argument accepted that Russia would indeed support Serbia, but that neither France or Britain would, and that therefore the solidarity of the Triple Entente would be disrupted. This would be a major diplomatic coup. It would moreover trigger a Russo-German war sooner ratehr than later- a preventative war fought for reasons similar to those developed by Conrad in relation to Serbia.

One of the assumptions of 1914 was that tsarist Russia was a sleeping giant about to awake. Its government had been liberalized in response to the 1905 revolution and its annual growth rate was 3.25 per cent. Between 1908 and 1913 its industrial production increased by 50 per cent, an expansion which was largely fueled by defense-related output. Russia's army was already the biggest in Europe. By 1917 it would be three times the size of Germany's.


Hew Strachan's First World War, page 14

Elementary.

Quote:

Do you not agree that Austria would have been better off if Germany hadn't assured them that they would go to war with them if necessary, and therefore Austria hadn't started the war?
Of course, but Germany and Austria weren't "friends", they were strategic allies. The Germans fundamentally didn't care about Austria's best interest. German actions were done for German reasons; the Germans helped the Austrians only in so far as German policy was advanced.

This is very different than our modern relationship with Israel, or Britain, for example. These are genuine friendships between peoples.

Wonderment 11-13-2011 03:06 PM

The explosion in Iran (did Mossad do it?) and the Republican warmongering last night
 
Here's an article (LA Times) speculating on the latest possible Israeli terror attack on Iran, in which 17 persons were killed.

Also, was anyone paying attention last night to the Republican "Foreign Policy" debate? Romney and Gingrich came out firmly in favor of the McCain "Ba-ba-bomb Iran" strategy.

Also, post-debate, the Obama administration, not wanting to appear wimpy, rushed to assure the public that NO OPTIONS WERE OFF THE TABLE:

Quote:

Romney said that if "crippling sanctions" and other strategies fail, military action would be on the table because it is "unacceptable" for Iran to become a nuclear power.

Gingrich agreed, saying that if "maximum covert operations" and other strategies failed there would be no other choice. First, though, the United States consider "taking out their scientists," and "breaking up their systems, all of it covertly, all of it deniable," Gingrich said. (watch at left)

"If we re-elect Barack Obama, Iran will have a nuclear weapon. And if you elect Mitt Romney, Iran will not have a nuclear weapon," said Romney.
I don't know why the Israelis are worried that they may have to do the dirty work. There is a bi-partisan pro-war consensus here in the USA that we'll do it if we have to. Blowback be damned.

opposable_crumbs 11-13-2011 03:15 PM

Re: The explosion in Iran (did Mossad do it?) and the Republican warmongering last night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 231371)
Here's an article (LA Times) speculating on the latest possible Israeli terror attack on Iran, in which 17 persons were killed.

Also, was anyone paying attention last night to the Republican "Foreign Policy" debate? Romney and Gingrich came out firmly in favor of the McCain "Ba-ba-bomb Iran" strategy.

Also, post-debate, the Obama administration, not wanting to appear wimpy, rushed to assure the public that NO OPTIONS WERE OFF THE TABLE:



I don't know why the Israelis are worried that they may have to do the dirty work. There is a bi-partisan pro-war consensus here in the USA that we'll do it if we have to. Blowback be damned.

We had a diavlogue dedicated to the apparent Iranian assassination plot that was reportedly directed at the Saudis. Following which the drumb beat to war soundtrack was turned up to 11. But there has been so little commentary on the assassination of Iranian scientists, or other covert activities directed against Iran. Maybe the republicans can look to Reagan's record of US Iranian relations during the debate for inspiration and creative solutions.

stephanie 11-13-2011 03:22 PM

Re: The explosion in Iran (did Mossad do it?) and the Republican warmongering last night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 231371)
I don't know why the Israelis are worried that they may have to do the dirty work. There is a bi-partisan pro-war consensus here in the USA that we'll do it if we have to. Blowback be damned.

I don't think so, and I certainly don't think refusing to declare a possible strategy off the table means that we would use it.

Simon Willard 11-13-2011 03:38 PM

Re: The more things change the more they stay the same.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 231344)
Good, Iran will wait a few years before wiping Israel off the map.

Cool down, Apple. Israel's future may be cloudy, but no one is going to get "wiped off the map". At least not with bombs.

The best approach is for the US and other like-minded nations to delay, delay, delay the progress toward an Iranian bomb with sanctions, computer worms, etc. This is to drive home the point that Iran is playing with fire. If and when they do get a bomb (and I have no illusions about their intent to do so) we hope they will have acquired a MAD-like fear of using it. At some point, possessing such awesome technology can be a civilizing influence. We just need to provide enough time for Iranian leaders and Iranian society to think things through.

Iran's ultimate possession of a bomb should not cause Israel to live in fear. At that point, Israel should simply ignore it.

Simon Willard 11-13-2011 03:40 PM

Re: The explosion in Iran (did Mossad do it?) and the Republican warmongering last night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanie (Post 231374)
I don't think so, and I certainly don't think refusing to declare a possible strategy off the table means that we would use it.

Agreed. Once in office, that Republican sabre-rattling will have no meaning.

Wonderment 11-13-2011 03:51 PM

Re: The explosion in Iran (did Mossad do it?) and the Republican warmongering last night
 
Quote:

I don't think so, and I certainly don't think refusing to declare a possible strategy off the table means that we would use it.
"Nothing off the table" is code and dog whistle for "We are poised to attack if you hit our threshold."

The real problem with attacking Iran is that it's not a viable means of ending their nuclear program. Full-fledged war and regime change is, however. Is anyone THAT crazy?

As Ocean suggested above, the more likely candidates for crazy-enough-to-start-a-world-war are found in Israel and the USA, in both conservative and liberal parties. They are not found in Iran; Iran is crazy for other reasons.

stephanie 11-13-2011 04:15 PM

Re: The explosion in Iran (did Mossad do it?) and the Republican warmongering last night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 231381)
"Nothing off the table" is code and dog whistle for "We are poised to attack if you hit our threshold."

What's the supposed threshold?

But no, I don't agree. It's conventional wisdom that you don't unilaterally take an option off the table, but that doesn't mean you (specifically, Obama or the bipartisan consensus in the US) are seriously considering the option, especially given the obvious and enormous negatives. I would be shocked if Obama agreed to a war with Iran, and like Simon said I don't think Romney would get us into such a war either, despite his talk on the subject.

bkjazfan 11-13-2011 04:16 PM

Re: Will Israel Attack Iran? (Elliot Jager & Larry Derfner)
 
Larry needs to ease up on the coffee or take a tranquilizer. He was inordinantly hyper. Calm down, it will help your thoughts and clarity of mind.

Wonderment 11-13-2011 04:29 PM

Re: The explosion in Iran (did Mossad do it?) and the Republican warmongering last night
 
Quote:

What's the supposed threshold?
Unclear. Like Bush in Iraq, whatever Decider says it is.

Quote:

But no, I don't agree. It's conventional wisdom that you don't unilaterally take an option off the table, but that doesn't mean you (specifically, Obama or the bipartisan consensus in the US) are seriously considering the option, especially given the obvious and enormous negatives. I would be shocked if Obama agreed to a war with Iran, and like Simon said I don't think Romney would get us into such a war either, despite his talk on the subject.
I agree that the probability of war with Iran is low with either Obama or Romney. But we'll see: who would have believed Iraq was possible? Saber-rattling is usually just that, except when it's not.

apple 11-13-2011 04:34 PM

Re: Will Israel Attack Iran? (Elliot Jager & Larry Derfner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 231362)
You're crazy or lying or both.

Oh right, I forgot that in your mind, I'm the crazy one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 231362)
Read the multiple posts that I wrote here clarifying what I said. If you can't get the above ideas out of your head, I suggest you go see a physician instead of continuing your "Ocean said... blah, blah, blah,... and Ocean... more blah, blah...and blah."

I suggest that you read your own posts. Then you'll realize that I'm only telling the truth about what you said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 231362)
Not worth continuing this discussion, apple. And yes, you are on my ignore list, which I consider a great tool in this forum, with the exception that from time to time, one has to read some post from those in the ignore list to be able to follow a conversation that includes more worthy commenters.

And you don't even realize that I was mocking you for your self-important ignore list.

apple 11-13-2011 04:45 PM

Re: Will Israel Attack Iran? (Elliot Jager & Larry Derfner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 231356)
I can't represent all people that say this or that.

I did not say that you were representative of the many people who are like that, merely that you are like that, just like many others who claim to defend no religion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 231356)
Religions, when followed to the extreme that their believers think they are up against some or all others, and that they need to spread their views by expressing hatred and intolerance, are dangerous.

Well, you did not answer my more specific questions: is following Jesus and his words 'extreme'? What about Muhammad and his words?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 231356)
People who go against religions with a similar stance, by expressing hatred and intolerance, are also dangerous. Intolerance and hatred are the key elements because they easily lead to violence.

You're one of the most intolerant people in this board, Ocean, and I mean that. For example, you are intolerant of Israel's right to defend itself against rogue states like Iran. At the same time, I doubt that you will ever commit violence, even against people you despise (anyone who disagrees with you).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 231356)
Of course, you don't know what you're talking about when you criticize me on this, because in fact I have been quite vocal against certain aspects of religious groups which are regressive and diminishing to their own (for example the treatment of women within Islam).

How can you criticize the treatment of women in Islam and simultaneously be a moral relativist?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 231356)
No, you're blind in your obtuseness whenever Islam or anything remotely related to it comes up as a topic. You go full speed into rants without consideration of any possible grey areas or any attempt to view a slightly different perspective.

Incorrect, as usual - it's closer to a description of how you carry yourself in any thread not related to science.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 231356)
If you comprehend so well, you're doing a poor job of demonstrating it since you're accusing me of saying something that I didn't say.

Funny how every person not named Ocean interpreted in exactly the same way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 231356)
You really must be kidding. You popped what? I don't have utopian dreams*, I only have good wishes**. Do you understand the difference between those two?

* an expectation that a highly desirable but unlikely outcome will be true.

** a desire that a favorable outcome was true, even when knowing it's highly unlikely.

Perhaps you should know what you're talking about before attempting to lecture others. I recall you straining to exclude retribution as a part of the definition of justice. Your personal definitions do nothing any good, except perhaps your feelings. Same thing here, one can have a utopian dream without expecting it to come true, the whole concept is silent on the issue of expectations.

apple 11-13-2011 04:48 PM

Re: The more things change the more they stay the same.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Willard (Post 231378)
Cool down, Apple. Israel's future may be cloudy,

Mushroom cloudy?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Willard (Post 231378)
The best approach is for the US and other like-minded nations to delay, delay, delay the progress toward an Iranian bomb with sanctions, computer worms, etc. This is to drive home the point that Iran is playing with fire. If and when they do get a bomb (and I have no illusions about their intent to do so) we hope they will have acquired a MAD-like fear of using it.

We're going to have to hope that Iran won't use nuclear weapons of annihilation? That's like putting your 10-year-old son into the hands of Jerry Sandunsky (peace be upon him) and just hope that he won't get abused.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Willard (Post 231378)
At some point, possessing such awesome technology can be a civilizing influence.

Well, it sure made Kim Il Loon a sane man. Oh, wait.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Willard (Post 231378)
Iran's ultimate possession of a bomb should not cause Israel to live in fear.

No, why live in fear when you can hope and pray that Iran's Islamo-fascist regime won't nuke you?

Wonderment 11-13-2011 04:49 PM

Re: Will Israel Attack Iran? (Elliot Jager & Larry Derfner)
 
Quote:

Oh right, I forgot that in your mind, I'm the crazy one.
Apple, you are not the crazy one just in Ocean's mind. Although she may be the only qualified to make a professional assessment of your psychiatric condition, many people here have suggested that you're paranoid about Islam (in a clinical sense).

The risk, of course, in continually pointing out paranoia to a paranoic is that it only serves to exacerbate the paranoia. OTOH, you're hard to ignore (ignore lists notwithstanding) and playing along with your delusions also runs the risk of reinforcing them.

So I give up. I don't know how to help you or deal with you.

Sulla the Dictator 11-13-2011 04:50 PM

Re: The explosion in Iran (did Mossad do it?) and the Republican warmongering last night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 231390)
I agree that the probability of war with Iran is low with either Obama or Romney. But we'll see: who would have believed Iraq was possible? Saber-rattling is usually just that, except when it's not.

Most people. We bombed them four years earlier, and had been in a full scale war only seven years before that. It was a history of actual military engagement.

apple 11-13-2011 04:52 PM

Re: Will Israel Attack Iran? (Elliot Jager & Larry Derfner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 231397)
Apple, you are not the crazy one just in Ocean's mind. Although she may be the only qualified to make a professional assessment of your psychiatric condition,

Well, you know what they say about psychologists and psychiatrists...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 231397)
many people here have suggested that you're paranoid about Islam (in a clinical sense).

Who, other than yourself? Leftist individuals on this board have accused me of "Islamophobia", but even they probably won't go as far as you are going here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 231397)
So I give up. I don't know how to help you or deal with you.

Well, my dear Wonderment, perhaps you should learn that not everyone is in need of your aid.

ohreally 11-13-2011 05:10 PM

Re: Israel refuses to tell US its Iran intentions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by opposable_crumbs (Post 231317)
Reports in the press are saying that Israel is refusing to confirm that it will inform the US should it choose to strike.

Can't be done. Israel can't attack Iran without US communications support.

Simon Willard 11-13-2011 06:17 PM

Re: The more things change the more they stay the same.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 231396)
We're going to have to hope that Iran won't use nuclear weapons of annihilation? That's like putting your 10-year-old son into the hands of Jerry Sandunsky (peace be upon him) and just hope that he won't get abused.

No, why live in fear when you can hope and pray that Iran's Islamo-fascist regime won't nuke you?

I'm asserting that Iran's Islamo-fascist regime won't nuke anybody. If they did, the gloves would come off for America. Israel would be reconstituted, Iran would get the Germany/Japan treatment, and in the end the world would be a better place. Maybe a much better place. So what are you worried about?

Simon Willard 11-13-2011 06:32 PM

Re: The explosion in Iran (did Mossad do it?) and the Republican warmongering last night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator (Post 231398)
Most people. We bombed them four years earlier, and had been in a full scale war only seven years before that. It was a history of actual military engagement.

Right. You can reasonably argue the Iraq war was an ill-advised mistake, but you can't claim it wasn't telegraphed and explained well in advance. That was much more than saber-rattling.

Wonderment 11-13-2011 06:53 PM

Re: The explosion in Iran (did Mossad do it?) and the Republican warmongering last night
 
Quote:

Right. You can reasonably argue the Iraq war was an ill-advised mistake, but you can't claim it wasn't telegraphed and explained well in advance. That was much more than saber-rattling.
Well, I would argue that the Iraq War was lunacy rather than "ill-advised," but that's besides the point. It looks "telegraphed" in hindsight, but it was pitched and developed as a limited sanctions regime. Only at the end (post 9/11) did it become a war-or-else ultimatum and a Bush cowboy mission.

I do agree with you that the world should get used to a nuclear-armed Iran. It's sad, but we all bear part of the blame. Israel is a rogue nuclear state and the only nation preventing the region from being a nuclear-free zone.

Nuclear disarmament is a global responsibility. Non-proliferation won't ever work unless the nuclear powers provide some credibility by dramatically reducing their own stockpiles en route to eliminating them.

TwinSwords 11-13-2011 07:17 PM

Re: Will Israel Attack Iran? (Elliot Jager & Larry Derfner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kezboard (Post 231251)
THIS. IS. SPARTA!!

LOL! I was just thinking, "Gosh sounds like Sulla really liked 300!"

TwinSwords 11-13-2011 07:22 PM

Re: Will Israel Attack Iran? (Elliot Jager & Larry Derfner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thouartgob (Post 231359)
Lets not judge here. What he does with his copies of 300 and Top Gun in the privacy of his own bedroom or survivor shelter is his own business. :)

LOL. The Xerxes reference was a dead giveaway that he's learning his history from Frank Miller.

Apparently his ideas about OWS also come from Frank Miller.

Simon Willard 11-13-2011 07:24 PM

Re: The explosion in Iran (did Mossad do it?) and the Republican warmongering last night
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 231422)
I do agree with you that the world should get used to a nuclear-armed Iran. It's sad, but we all bear part of the blame. Israel is a rogue nuclear state and the only nation preventing the region from being a nuclear-free zone.

Nuclear disarmament is a global responsibility. Non-proliferation won't ever work unless the nuclear powers provide some credibility by dramatically reducing their own stockpiles en route to eliminating them.

I agree with reduction. I would cut back on the numbers of US weapons as a way of signalling that we don't place much value in the ability to annihilate all of mankind, and I would also step back from hair-trigger readiness as much as possible. But total elimination is a pipe dream -- thinking about how to make this happen is not a productive way to spend one's time.

Non-proliferation remains a worthy goal, even if imperfect. It depends on making it painful for other nations to develop (and hold) weapons. That is why I want to throw roadblocks in Iran's way as much as possible. Getting used to a nuclear-armed Iran does not mean rolling over and making it easy for them. The final step is to devalue the weapons by rejecting any idea that they could be used to advantage, and rejecting any idea that the existence of such weapons provides some kind of leverage against their neighbors (see North Korea). This may piss them off and lead to anti-American sentiment, but I believe it is probably the optimum strategy.

miceelf 11-13-2011 07:30 PM

Re: Will Israel Attack Iran? (Elliot Jager & Larry Derfner)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TwinSwords (Post 231425)

That's kind of sad. My feelings about Miller are almost completely captured by the first commenter, except I will probably hold on to his Daredevil Death of Electra run.

ETA. Has anyone ever seen both Miller and Sulla at the same time?


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