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-   -   What Do Women Diavloggers Want? (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?t=2554)

Bloggingheads 01-28-2009 09:45 AM

What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 

lamoose 01-28-2009 10:26 AM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
I think it's perfectly reasonable for Obama to not announce a specific plan for closing Gitmo on day-one for a few very obvious reasons (so obvious that I think Althouse may be overdoing it in her incredulity):

1. As he was President-elect during the transition and not President, he and his team presumably did not have complete access to all of the classified intelligence and information on the detainees in Gitmo. Therefore, giving his team a full review, with a complete understanding of what we have on these guys, what was corrupted by torture, etc. seems understandable.

2. Closing Guantanamo will likely require some diplomatic heavy lifting as we try to cajole some of our allies to take custody of these prisoners.

3. If the "enemy combatants" are to be housed within the U.S., it is possible that we will need to construct a new facility. (I believe that Geneva does not allow foreign captives to be held alongside domestic prisoners... not sure if that will apply.)

Of course, then it becomes apparent that Althouse doesn't really want them moved at all, and finds the idea of moving them dangerous. It seems pretty clear that Althouse would have preferred Obama to act swiftly and recklessly on the issue so as to make it easier to demagogue.

bjkeefe 01-28-2009 10:51 AM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lamoose (Post 102301)
Of course, then it becomes apparent that Althouse doesn't really want them moved at all, and finds the idea of moving them dangerous. It seems pretty clear that Althouse would have preferred Obama to act swiftly and recklessly on the issue so as to make it easier to demagogue.

Smart point.

It seemed evident from this part of the diavlog that Ann cared only about getting two talking points across: (1) Repeat the Fox News mantra of fear of the super-villain terrorists with magic evil powers, and (2) Defend her BFF, poor Rush Limbaugh, from Obama and his cohort of nasty liberals, so that he can continue to spray whatever obnoxious crap oozes out of his butt without having to suffer any consequences. Not this time.

Ann's charade of being a moderate is laughably transparent. She's a card-carrying member of the rightwing noise machine, with nary an original observation to make about the political scene, and nothing more. She doesn't have "concerns." She's a concern troll.

(To the inevitable Ann fans: I know, I know, she claims to have voted for Obama, and now she's just being her "fierce independent skeptical" self. Spare me. Just because she has you snowed doesn't mean I can't hear the truth.)

It's a shame Emily can't be paired with someone else. Waste of a good diavlogger.

Simon Willard 01-28-2009 11:04 AM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
I applaud Ann for her clear statement that Obama's Mideast policy is shaping up to be a change of atmospherics, but not of substance.

bjkeefe 01-28-2009 11:09 AM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Willard (Post 102303)
I applaud Ann for her clear statement that Obama's Mideast policy is shaping up to be a change of atmospherics, but not of substance.

I'd ask you the same question I'd ask her: How can you possibly say what "Obama's Mideast policy is shaping up to be" after one week in office?

Please. You both sound like the worst sort of MSM conventional-wisdom-babbling talking heads when you say stuff like this.

Salt 01-28-2009 11:16 AM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
Are there any othe examples of a sitting president criticizing a media figure? I don't keep track of these things.

brucds 01-28-2009 11:23 AM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
Let me guess before I don't bother to watch this - Ann is the one who bets Obama won't close Gitmo.

I'm a f'ing genius. Okay, on to the New York Times. Some shit must have happened that I actually give one about.

Salt 01-28-2009 11:29 AM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
Quoting bj: . . . Defend her BFF, poor Rush Limbaugh, from Obama and his cohort of nasty liberals, so that he can continue to spray whatever obnoxious crap oozes out of his butt without having to suffer any consequences. Not this time.

Are you even an adult? They don't even have this potty-mouth stuff on MSNBC. Try to keep your ramblings within the bounds of propriety.

bjkeefe 01-28-2009 11:36 AM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Salt (Post 102307)
Try to keep your ramblings within the bounds of propriety.

You mean like this?

Sorry to offend your prim sensibilities, Salt, but sometimes a little plain speaking is in order. You want to clean up the discourse, start on your own side of the aisle.

pampl 01-28-2009 11:46 AM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
If Althouse is so offended by a President dissing prior presidents and trying to distance themselves from their predecessor then it's a good thing she's been living under a rock for all her life until this week.

bjkeefe 01-28-2009 11:48 AM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pampl (Post 102310)
If Althouse is so offended by a President dissing prior presidents and trying to distance themselves from their predecessor then it's a good thing she's been living under a rock for all her life until this week.

Are you suggesting the Bush Administration ever cast aspersions on Bill Clinton?

(*faints*)

bjkeefe 01-28-2009 11:59 AM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Salt (Post 102305)
Are there any othe examples of a sitting president criticizing a media figure? I don't keep track of these things.

I can think of at least two.

Simon Willard 01-28-2009 12:03 PM

Car Talk policy
 
Quote:

How can you possibly say what "Obama's Mideast policy is shaping up to be" after one week in office?
Let me clarify. Obama does have a stated position that is different by definition: doing more listening and less dictating. Presumably, he is making a comparison to the Bush administration. I should say I'm not opposed to this; it's a change I believe in.

Whether this will have a measurable effect "on the ground", different from the Bush policy is not clear to me.

I see both Bush and Obama as part of the same, slow, continuous process of disengagement from the Arab-Isaeli conflict. Sorry about that, Tom Friedman.

I call it the "Car Talk" Mideast policy. You see, on the NPR radio program "Car Talk", the hosts discuss ways of dealing with an intractable automotive problem: a "check engine" light that comes on for no understandable reason. The solution? Place a piece of black electrical tape over the light so it does not distract you.

Similarly, we are not going to meddle very much in the Arab-Isaeli conflict until the parties involved find their own way to peace, or until there is a really huge crisis. And playing the role of the electrical tape? George Mitchell.

cragger 01-28-2009 12:12 PM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
Hearing someone who attempts to portray herself as an objective and serious intellectual rather than a reflexive partisan hack discuss listening to Rush and defend his poor beleagured self, and subsequently explain that part of the reason she refused to see a movie was to escape subjecting herself to her assumption of the director's "liberal agenda" seems to exemplify something to my poor and sluggish mind. Is it irony? Perhaps farce?

nkirby 01-28-2009 12:14 PM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
Ann Althouse pretends to be a rationalist and posits more conspiracy theories than a 9/11 Truther on meth. It's hilarious.

AemJeff 01-28-2009 12:21 PM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cragger (Post 102314)
Hearing someone who attempts to portray herself as an objective and serious intellectual rather than a reflexive partisan hack discuss listening to Rush and defend his poor beleagured self, and subsequently explain that part of the reason she refused to see a movie was to escape subjecting herself to her assumption of the director's "liberal agenda" seems to exemplify something to my poor and sluggish mind. Is it irony? Perhaps farce?

Farce. Unfortunately, it's not quite Wodehouse.

Salt 01-28-2009 12:23 PM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
Quoting bj: so that he [Limbaugh] can continue to spray whatever obnoxious crap oozes out of his butt without having to suffer any consequences. . . . Sorry to offend your prim sensibilities, Salt, but sometimes a little plain speaking is in order.

Plain speaking? Your comments are not plain speaking, just crass. If you want to put yourself in the same style category as Limbaugh, go right ahead, but you don't see me dragging every vulgar comment I disagree with in here.

Quoting bj: You want to clean up the discourse, start on your own side of the aisle.

Forbearance has nothing to do with ideology. Is this a forum for issues, or not? BTW, your little comment about "suffer[ing] the consequences" is very telling about your self-righteous, totalitarian leanings and, more broadly, reflects a broader environment of intolerance that includes liberal objectives like "Fairness Doctrine". This is the road to Hell.

bjkeefe 01-28-2009 12:26 PM

Re: Car Talk policy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Willard (Post 102313)
Let me clarify. [...]

Essentially, I'd give the same answer as before. Seems to me you're not doing anything but projecting worries. You don't yet have enough data to say anything meaningful about Obama's dealings with the Middle East.

Salt 01-28-2009 12:31 PM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
Quoting bj: Quoting Salt: Are there any othe examples of a sitting president criticizing a media figure? I don't keep track of these things.
I can think of at least two.

For a second there, I thought you were serious. Okay, you went back 35 years to Nixon. Touche, but it almost proves my point. Memo to White House, setting yourself up for parallels with Nixon is not a good thing. The second piece you referenced just accused Bush of more nefarious media manipulation, but it didn't seem to include any attacks by the president on a specific media figure. I'm sure some other blogger will give some better examples.

TwinSwords 01-28-2009 12:34 PM

Re: Car Talk policy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Willard (Post 102313)
I see both Bush and Obama as part of the same, slow, continuous process of disengagement from the Mideast.

This is the first time I've heard someone describe Bush foreign policy as a "process of disengagement from the Mideast."

TwinSwords 01-28-2009 12:37 PM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Salt (Post 102319)
Quoting bj: Quoting Salt: Are there any othe examples of a sitting president criticizing a media figure? I don't keep track of these things.
I can think of at least two.

For a second there, I thought you were serious. Okay, you went back 35 years to Nixon. Touche, but it almost proves my point. Memo to White House, setting yourself up for parallels with Nixon is not a good thing. The second piece you referenced just accused Bush of more nefarious media manipulation, but it didn't seem to include any attacks by the president on a specific media figure. I'm sure some other blogger will give some better examples.

Clinton also attacked Rush Limbaugh while he was president. As for other examples, I'm not sure anyone would remember, because there's nothing particularly memorable about a president criticizing members of the press. Ho hum.

Are you really offended that a president would call out a particular media figure by name? I think your real issue must be who was called out by whom, not the fact of the calling out.

bjkeefe 01-28-2009 12:39 PM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
*** It's time for another round of Spot The Irony! ***

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salt (Post 102307)
Try to keep your ramblings within the bounds of propriety.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salt (Post 102317)
Is this a forum for issues, or not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salt (Post 102317)
BTW, your little comment about "suffer[ing] the consequences" is very telling about your self-righteous, totalitarian leanings ...

So, you complain about my words, and you want to tell me what I may and may not say, but I'm the self-righteous totalitarian?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salt (Post 102317)
... and, more broadly, reflects a broader environment of intolerance that includes liberal objectives like "Fairness Doctrine". This is the road to Hell.

I would like to play along and pretend that this is actually a serious "liberal objective," just to watch you continue to wet your pants, but I can't keep a straight face. You should spend less time listening to your own side's fear-mongering. Believe me, the Fairness Doctrine is never coming back.

And please don't scurry off to find some one-liner from Chuck Schumer and pretend it represents anything serious. He's just messing with your head. Good for a laugh, and possibly useful as a distraction for making those of you who flip out in response appear further out on the fringe, but that's all there is to it.

The truth is, the purported return of the Fairness Doctrine is a drumbeat being hammered by GOP politicians who can't think of anything else to use to rally their base.

(cf., particularly the last blockquote.)

Simon Willard 01-28-2009 12:47 PM

Re: Car Talk policy
 
Right. I should have specified "Arab-Israeli conflict".

bjkeefe 01-28-2009 12:50 PM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Salt (Post 102319)
Memo to White House, setting yourself up for parallels with Nixon is not a good thing.

Ten points for that full twist.

Quote:

The second piece you referenced just accused Bush of more nefarious media manipulation, but it didn't seem to include any attacks by the president on a specific media figure. I'm sure some other blogger will give some better examples.
I'd say four things. First, what Obama said about Rush Limbaugh is completely tame. It was damned close to being factual, come to that.

Second, Rush Limbaugh is sui generis. If you're looking for an exact parallel to other presidents and other media figures, it's going to be hard to come up with one. No one as virulent as Limbaugh has had anywhere near as large an audience that I can think of. I mean, c'mon. The GOP made him an honorary House member in 1994. He makes something like $35 million/year for spending three hours a day saying the nastiest, lyingest shit he can get away with. If he wants to play in the big leagues, he's going to have to accept the full package.

Third, that Obama had the guts to say something direct and speak for himself is to his credit. Most presidents use underlings, whisper campaigns, and the like.

Fourth, I could come up with other examples -- in fact, I had some vague memories of Lyndon Johnson and FDR that I was trying to think how to Google, but the way you responded with your "Nixon memo" remark, I realize you weren't looking to have a serious conversation. So, yeah, go look for some other blogger. Or go back to sitting on your thumb. Or whatever.

hurt 01-28-2009 12:51 PM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
I think Obama singled out Rush Limbaugh because, unlike many other conservative talking heads, he said he hopes Obama will fail and rejected any kind of collaboration across the aisle, however disingenuous those promises by others may be.

Salt 01-28-2009 12:53 PM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
Quoting Twins: Are you really offended that a president would call out a particular media figure by name?

It really surprises me that you would ask this. I thought it was one of those things that we didn't do in the U.S. in order to avoid a situation where the president would intimidate opponents in the media. How many journalists have been shot and killed by unknown assailants in Russia in the last decade? Here's a softer analogy. In my experience in finance, it was mostly guys like Bernie Ebbers who would bully their critics and quite often it's this kind of lack of propriety that is a reliable red flag for a fraud.

Quoting Twins:I think your real issue must be who was called out by whom, not the fact of the calling out.

Of course. Conservatives have no belief whatsoever in checks and balances. In reality, there is no difference between right wing fascism and left wing fascism. Both are dictatorships.

Salt 01-28-2009 01:02 PM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
Quoting bj: I would like to play along and pretend that this is actually a serious "liberal objective," just to watch you continue to wet your pants, but I can't keep a straight face. You should spend less time listening to your own side's fear-mongering. Believe me, the Fairness Doctrine is never coming back.

I only go by what I read, see and hear and I saw a recent video of Nancy Pelosi asked about whether she wanted to bring back Fairness Doctrine and she said she had always believed in the Fairness Doctrine. Crystal clear.

bjkeefe 01-28-2009 01:08 PM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Salt (Post 102328)
Quoting bj: I would like to play along and pretend that this is actually a serious "liberal objective," just to watch you continue to wet your pants, but I can't keep a straight face. You should spend less time listening to your own side's fear-mongering. Believe me, the Fairness Doctrine is never coming back.

I only go by what I read, see and hear and I saw a recent video of Nancy Pelosi asked about whether she wanted to bring back Fairness Doctrine and she said she had always believed in the Fairness Doctrine. Crystal clear.

I knew I should have thrown Pelosi in there with Schumer. Same thing -- she was just yanking the collective wingnut chain. (Did you even read the "cf." link?)

But hey, if you'd rather believe it, fine by me. The longer your side stays focused on fairy tales, the longer you'll be in the wilderness, and that's all the better for the country.

bjkeefe 01-28-2009 01:13 PM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Salt (Post 102326)
I thought it was one of those things that we didn't do in the U.S. in order to avoid a situation where the president would intimidate opponents in the media. How many journalists have been shot and killed by unknown assailants in Russia in the last decade?

Man, what a hysteric you are, Salt.

Francoamerican 01-28-2009 01:28 PM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Willard (Post 102303)
I applaud Ann for her clear statement that Obama's Mideast policy is shaping up to be a change of atmospherics, but not of substance.

For anyone who is looking for substance instead of atmospherics I recommend the following selections from the London Review of Books. These are people who actually know something.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/web/15/01/2009/mult04_.html

As well as the article by Henry Siegman:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n02/sieg01_.html

Uhurusasa 01-28-2009 02:07 PM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 102302)
Smart point.


(To the inevitable Ann fans: I know, I know, she claims to have voted for Obama, and now she's just being her "fierce independent skeptical" self. Spare me. Just because she has you snowed doesn't mean I can't hear the truth.)

Ann is to me, the gadfly. i like that! she challenges her debater to hit her oddly moving targets. she is an exercise in thinking, not conformity. it is uncomfortable to have to discard our handy templates, and chase this crazy lady round and about. the fact that she is not "nailed" enough, doesn't mean that she can't be!

i don't look to her for truth. she challenges me to focus my attention enough to clarify my position on a given subject. sometimes i agree, and sometimes i don't agree with her. sometimes, i can't figure out what her point is! but, i enjoy the process,more times than not! she makes me uncomfortable in a pleasant sort of way. hmmmm!!?

i like her, but i don't consider myself a fan!!! i wouldn't walk a mile for a camel or an althouse!!

Salt 01-28-2009 02:15 PM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
Quoting BJ: Ten points for that full twist.

Translation: Whoops, I chose a poor example.

Quoting BJ: He [Limbaugh] makes something like $35 million/year for spending three hours a day saying the nastiest, lyingest shit he can get away with. If he wants to play in the big leagues, he's going to have to accept the full package.

The point is not how Limbaugh does or does not feel. That is not my concern. The point is that the President is held to a different standard than the media.

Quoting BJ: Fourth, I could come up with other examples -- in fact, I had some vague memories of Lyndon Johnson and FDR that I was trying to think how to Google . . . .

But, alas, by the time you got to your fourth (!) point, you didn't. Instead, you gave three points of obfuscation and bile.

bjkeefe 01-28-2009 02:22 PM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Uhurusasa (Post 102335)
Ann is to me, the gadfly.

There's something to that. I suppose I'd be able to tolerate that act if she weren't also so thin-skinned (or, always looking to pick a blogfight for attention-getting reasons, which manifests equivalently). Seems to me the good kind of gadfly, which, say, Mickey Kaus can do from time to time, both gives you a hint at some point that this was just for the purpose of seeing where some random thought would lead, and doesn't make a big deal in response to the reactions provoked.

Plus, even if I stipulate to your hypothesis, I wonder why it always has to be in the same direction; i.e., seems to me that a worthwhile gadfly could potentially come at an issue from any and all directions. Ann, by contrast, always comes from the same one -- she habitually defends the worst of the right and scolds or complains (or expresses "concern") about everything else.

Salt 01-28-2009 02:23 PM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
Quoting bj: Quoting Salt: I thought it was one of those things that we didn't do in the U.S. in order to avoid a situation where the president would intimidate opponents in the media. How many journalists have been shot and killed by unknown assailants in Russia in the last decade?
Man, what a hysteric you are, Salt.

Yes, I'm hysterically wetting my pants while sitting on my thumb.

bjkeefe 01-28-2009 02:24 PM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Salt (Post 102338)
Yes, I'm hysterically wetting my pants while sitting on my thumb.

Congratulations. Admitting you have a problem is the first step.

PaulL 01-28-2009 02:27 PM

I wonder if Emily has the same standard for Pro-lifers
 
Only one former Gitmo detainee became a top figure in Al Qaeda

However it is the Pro-life movement's fault for every Abortion Clinic bombing or Abortion Doctor Murder.

graz 01-28-2009 03:53 PM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Salt (Post 102326)
Quoting Twins: Are you really offended that a president would call out a particular media figure by name?

It really surprises me that you would ask this. I thought it was one of those things that we didn't do in the U.S. in order to avoid a situation where the president would intimidate opponents in the media...

Aren't you proud of your President's ability to use the weight of Limbaugh as leverage to pass his agenda?

See a perfect example:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_161650.html

bjkeefe 01-28-2009 03:56 PM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 102324)
Second, Rush Limbaugh is sui generis. If you're looking for an exact parallel to other presidents and other media figures, it's going to be hard to come up with one. No one as virulent as Limbaugh has had anywhere near as large an audience that I can think of.

As a measure of both his reprehensibility and his clout, note these two stories, separated by one day:

27 Jan 2009:

Quote:

Responding to President Obama’s recommendation to Republican congressional leaders last week that they not follow Limbaugh’s lead, the conservative talkmeister said on his show that Obama is “obviously more frightened of me than he is Mitch McConnell. He's more frightened of me, than he is of, say, John Boehner, which doesn't say much about our party."

Rep. Phil Gingrey, R-Ga., did not take kindly to this assessment in an interview with Politico Tuesday.

“I think that our leadership, Mitch McConnell and John Boehner, are taking the right approach,” Gingrey said. “I mean, it’s easy if you’re Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh or even sometimes Newt Gingrich to stand back and throw bricks. You don’t have to try to do what’s best for your people and your party. You know you’re just on these talk shows and you’re living well and plus you stir up a bit of controversy and gin the base and that sort of that thing. But when it comes to true leadership, not that these people couldn’t be or wouldn’t be good leaders, they’re not in that position of John Boehner or Mitch McConnell."
28 Jan 2009:

Quote:

Rep. Phil Gingrey (R-Ga.) apologized Wednesday to “my fellow conservatives” for comments critical of talk-radio host Rush Limbaugh – saying he sees “eye-to-eye” with Limbaugh and that his remarks defending House Republican leadership came across more harshly than intended.
He even felt compelled to put up an apology to Rush on his official House website.

(h/t: John Cole)

Salt 01-28-2009 04:44 PM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
Quoting bj: As a measure of both his [Limbaugh's] reprehensibility and his clout, note these two stories, separated by one day: . . . .

The fact that you are piling up sources makes me think that you understand this is a false equivalence, as you like to put it. Just to remind you, the media has subscribers, readers, viewers, listeners and advertizers. The president has the Executive Branch, which includes the Secret Service, FBI, CIA, Army, Navy, etc. Seems pretty obvious to me why past presidents appear to have entirely avoided calling out specific media figures. At the very least it is a bad precedent (no pun intended).

Salt 01-28-2009 04:50 PM

Re: What Do Women Diavloggers Want?
 
Quoting Graz: Aren't you proud of your President's ability to use the weight of Limbaugh as leverage to pass his agenda?

Sounds like you're being facetious, but I can't really tell what you're saying. Instead of pointing to the HuffPo, why don't you just choose two sentences and say it?


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