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Bloggingheads 05-30-2011 12:03 AM

Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 

whyjoshua 05-30-2011 01:31 AM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Love to hear Melinda Henneberger! Looking forward to this diavlog.

Abdicate 05-30-2011 07:32 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
The assertion that Democrats connived to get Jon Huntsman out of the country in order to remove a feared political opponent might benefit from evidence.

Henneberger and Sullivan snicker about prevailing anti-Mormon prejudice, while displaying resigned acceptance of anti-atheist prejudice.

Henneberger quotes Jackie O, but 'I don't think she said that publicly at the time.' Please, Ms. Henneberger: Provide a citation in which Jackie O ever made this statement [that JFK was a bad Catholic].

Sullivan claims hearing Howard Dean talk about how he left his church over a bike path. Please, Ms. Sullivan: Provide a citation in which Howard Dean publicly makes this assertion.

Sullivan: 'The more you hear about Mormon theology the more likely you are to think this is absolutely not part of my religion.' IOW--Sullivan's political thinking assumes adherence to mainline/evangelical Christianity; she has no desire to take a religiously-neutral perspective.

When you hear someone say, 'This election is one in which the economy will play a particularly prominent role,' you really have to re-evaluate your belief that you're not smart enough to appear on Bloggingheads.

Henneberger: Don't all our faiths sound a bit cultish to someone outside the faith? Certainly: Yes. Funny that Henneberger is aware of this damning insight--and assumes brushing it aside is honorable. Odd.

On leaving office, GWB admitted he is a religious liberal. (GWB accepts evolution and does not believe the Bible to be literally true.) It is surprising how many people still refer to GWB as 'a religious conservative'--even though we now know that he isn't: He's a politician who successfully passed himself off as a religious conservative.

Yes, Ms. Henneberger: GWB wore his religion on his sleeve. He successfully hoodwinked stupid people. That's correct.

Henneberger: Faith has become a proxy for Can I trust this guy? IOW, non-believers and non-Christians--to Henneberger--just have to accept their eternal second-class-citizenship.

Both Sullivan and Henneberger are constantly fudging, then, their role as neutral observer with their own approval of religion's political uses. Both hold politically-favored religious views and consider the perpetuation of said favoritism their birthright.

Can anybody find a link for the anti-Harkin ad, with the priest, to which Amy refers?

Amy Sullivan: [Ayn Rand] was just incredibly anti-religion. We're not required to like religion, are we? Why should Sullivan feel so comfortable in suggesting that opposition to religion should require apology? Henneberger, approving, again: '...Rand and Rome really don't go together...' [!]

Sullivan and Henneberger note that the media pay great attention to the Catholic Church's teaching on abortion but disregard the Church's liberal social-justice teachings.

Catholics themselves also make this 'error': If you ask Catholics what the most important political position advocated by their church is, you'll get abortion/pro-life. (The Catholic church I attend sponsors bus trips to anti-abortion rallies--and never to anti-poverty rallies.) This isn't a media misperception, in short--it's a reality that deserves being reported straightforwardly.

carkrueger 05-30-2011 08:24 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Quote from Obama which he has used several times.

"And recognizing that my fate remain tied up with their fates, that my individual salvation is not going to come about without a collective salvation for the country."

Collective salvation is not a tenant of Christianity it's a tenant of Marxism.

Amy claims that Obama gave the best Christian testimony she's ever heard, better then that Evangelical Bush. I reviewed his prayer breakfast speech and their was no testimony. I've never heard Obama tell the story of being lost and turning his life and his will over to Jesus Christ. That's what a testimony is!

I like Bill Maher don't believe he's a Christian or a Muslim but rather an atheist. And if Americans can put an atheist into the White House why not a Mormon?

graz 05-30-2011 08:35 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Wow. Can't a Mormon get a break from Amy. Isn't Harry Reid a Mormon? If electability were so intrinsically tied to identification with a given faith ... Well, we might have to introduce an amendment separating church and state or something.

Don Zeko 05-30-2011 08:51 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by carkrueger (Post 211221)
Quote from Obama which he has used several times.

"And recognizing that my fate remain tied up with their fates, that my individual salvation is not going to come about without a collective salvation for the country."

I only have the stomach to read through the first three pages of results for a google search of that quote, but none of the first three dozen results included links to any sources other than Glenn Back's show. Given that, I'm not going to assert as fact that Obama never said this, but I'd say that there's a strong circumstantial case that this quote was either taken out of context, doctored, or fabricated since it hasn't appeared in any reputable news source.

Wonderment 05-30-2011 09:20 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Quote:

I'm not going to assert as fact that Obama never said this, but I'd say that there's a strong circumstantial case that this quote was either taken out of context, doctored, or fabricated since it hasn't appeared in any reputable news source.
Published here in Time Magazine by Barack Obama::

Quote:

For one thing, I was drawn to the power of the African American religious tradition to spur social change. Out of necessity, the black church had to minister to the whole person. Out of necessity, the black church rarely had the luxury of separating individual salvation from collective salvation. It had to serve as the center of the community's political, economic, and social as well as spiritual life; it understood in an intimate way the biblical call to feed the hungry and clothe the naked and challenge powers and principalities. In the history of these struggles, I was able to see faith as more than just a comfort to the weary or a hedge against death; rather, it was an active, palpable agent in the world.

Ocean 05-30-2011 09:25 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 211234)
Published here in Time Magazine by Barack Obama::

His quote and the topic in general reminds me of Liberation Theology.

Wonderment 05-30-2011 09:25 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Quote:

Collective salvation is not a tenant of Christianity it's a tenant of Marxism.
Really? I thought it was a tenet (not tenant) of Judaism. A tenant of Judaism would be a guy who rents a room in the shul basement.

In any case, Judaism is all about collective salvation. The "Let my people go" thang. Maybe that's Obama's dark secret: he's not a Muslim-Indonesian-Keynan-Tribesman after all; he's a Jew.

TwinSwords 05-30-2011 09:28 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
And there is also this, from Obama's 2008 Commencement Address at Wesleyan:

Quote:

Each of you will have the chance to make your own discovery in the years to come. And I say ďchanceĒ because you wonít have to take it. Thereís no community service requirement in the real world; no one forcing you to care. You can take your diploma, walk off this stage, and chase only after the big house and the nice suits and all the other things that our money culture says you should by. You can choose to narrow your concerns and live your life in a way that tries to keep your story separate from Americaís.

But I hope you donít. Not because you have an obligation to those who are less fortunate, though you do have that obligation. Not because you have a debt to all those who helped you get here, though you do have that debt.

Itís because you have an obligation to yourself. Because our individual salvation depends on collective salvation. Because thinking only about yourself, fulfilling your immediate wants and needs, betrays a poverty of ambition. Because itís only when you hitch your wagon to something larger than yourself that you realize your true potential and discover the role youíll play in writing the next great chapter in Americaís story.

There are so many ways to serve and so much need at this defining moment in our history. You donít have to be a community organizer or do something crazy like run for President. Right here at Wesleyan, many of you have already volunteered at local schools, contributed to United Way, and even started a program that brings fresh produce to needy families in the area. One hundred and sixty-four graduates of this school have joined the Peace Corps since 2001, and Iím especially proud that two of you are about to leave for my fatherís homeland of Kenya to bring alternative sources of energy to impoverished areas.
So, Obama has talked about salvation, but we still have not found a credible source for the quote in carkrueger's post.

TwinSwords 05-30-2011 09:51 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Audio of Obama making a statement similar to carkrueger's quote here, at the 2:10 point. And the exact quote can be heard at the very end of the recording.

handle 05-30-2011 10:05 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 211236)
Really? I thought it was a tenet (not tenant) of Judaism. A tenant of Judaism would be a guy who rents a room in the shul basement.

In any case, Judaism is all about collective salvation. The "Let my people go" thang. Maybe that's Obama's dark secret: he's not a Muslim-Indonesian-Keynan-Tribesman after all; he's a Jew.

...not that there's anything wrong with that!

handle 05-30-2011 10:21 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by graz (Post 211226)
Wow. Can't a Mormon get a break from Amy. Isn't Harry Reid a Mormon? If electability were so intrinsically tied to identification with a given faith ... Well, we might have to introduce an amendment separating church and state or something.

Is that what it says?

eeeeeeeli 05-30-2011 11:15 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 211235)
His quote and the topic in general reminds me of Liberation Theology.

Or just human decency.

But people who celebrate getting ahead by pushing others down wouldn't understand that.

look 05-30-2011 11:42 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
[QUOTE=Wonderment;211234]
Quote:

For one thing, I was drawn to the power of the African American religious tradition to spur social change. Out of necessity, the black church had to minister to the whole person. Out of necessity, the black church rarely had the luxury of separating individual salvation from collective salvation. It had to serve as the center of the community's political, economic, and social as well as spiritual life; it understood in an intimate way the biblical call to feed the hungry and clothe the naked and challenge powers and principalities. In the history of these struggles, I was able to see faith as more than just a comfort to the weary or a hedge against death; rather, it was an active, palpable agent in the world.
Beautifully said.

chiwhisoxx 05-31-2011 12:33 AM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by handle (Post 211241)
Is that what it says?

christine o'donnell clearly has no idea what the fuck she's talking about, but just for the record, there is a non-crazy reading of the establishment clause that's a bit more nuanced than "separation of church and state". this interpretation says the clause simply means the government cannot promote or denigrate any particular religion, and must allow everyone to practice any religion freely. o'donnell is wrong because creationism promotes a specific religious doctrine. but there's interesting court precedent to support this narrower reading of the establishment clause. there's a really interesting case involving a local government paying for transportation for kids being taken to private religious schools, i'll try and find it.

stephanie 05-31-2011 11:41 AM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by graz (Post 211226)
Wow. Can't a Mormon get a break from Amy. Isn't Harry Reid a Mormon? If electability were so intrinsically tied to identification with a given faith ... Well, we might have to introduce an amendment separating church and state or something.

Heh.

stephanie 05-31-2011 11:45 AM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 211235)
His quote and the topic in general reminds me of Liberation Theology.

The quote, with the context Wonderment provided, is consistent with significant threads of Christian theology (not to mention writing in the Old Testament which many evangelicals, among others, tend to take seriously). If Beck was trying to claim Obama was insufficiently orthodox or some such (a silly claim for a Mormon to make), I think Beck is inadequately educated or something worse.

operative 05-31-2011 12:13 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanie (Post 211272)
The quote, with the context Wonderment provided, is consistent with significant threads of Christian theology (not to mention writing in the Old Testament which many evangelicals, among others, tend to take seriously). If Beck was trying to claim Obama was insufficiently orthodox or some such (a silly claim for a Mormon to make), I think Beck is inadequately educated or something worse.

Admittedly I'm no expert on theology, but from what I can gather, much of more modern theology presents a very individualistic interpretation of the message of salvation--hence all of the rhetoric about Christ being one's personal savior, as opposed to some sort of community savior (this is perhaps an outgrowth of the spread of Christianity across disparate communities, as opposed to the relative homogeneity of the Jewish community).

I find the notion of collective salvation to be rather creepy. It's a gateway to authoritarian policies, as it places the community above the individual and defines the role of the individual only as part of the collective.

miceelf 05-31-2011 12:24 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 211276)
Admittedly I'm no expert on theology, but from what I can gather, much of more modern theology presents a very individualistic interpretation of the message of salvation--hence all of the rhetoric about Christ being one's personal savior, as opposed to some sort of community savior (this is perhaps an outgrowth of the spread of Christianity across disparate communities, as opposed to the relative homogeneity of the Jewish community).

I find the notion of collective salvation to be rather creepy. It's a gateway to authoritarian policies, as it places the community above the individual and defines the role of the individual only as part of the collective.

Well, one man's "modern theology" is another man's "heresy."

of course you find it creepy. I find the prosperity gospel creepy. Our religious preferences and our political preferences are probably quite strongly linked to each other.

Abu Noor Al-Irlandee 05-31-2011 12:48 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Quote:

Henneberger quotes Jackie O, but 'I don't think she said that publicly at the time.' Please, Ms. Henneberger: Provide a citation in which Jackie O ever made this statement [that JFK was a bad Catholic].
This is quoted in Garry Wills' book "The Kennedy Imprisonment" where it is said that Ms. Kennedy said to Arthur Krock, "I think it is unfair for Jack to be opposed because he is a Catholic. After all, he's such a poor Catholic. Now if it were Bobby: he never misses mass and prays all the time."

http://books.google.com/books?id=Kve...tholic&f=false

operative 05-31-2011 12:52 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 211277)
Well, one man's "modern theology" is another man's "heresy."

Sure, but there's a general direction that Christian theology went, that coincided with the advent of modern democracy, inalienable rights, and economic dynamism, and I'd say that's the individualistic approach. The collective approach is a definite rebellion against that.

Quote:

of course you find it creepy. I find the prosperity gospel creepy. Our religious preferences and our political preferences are probably quite strongly linked to each other.
Personally I find the prosperity gospel to just be a little silly. It seems to be a natural offspring of Weber, though.

stephanie 05-31-2011 01:35 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 211277)
Well, one man's "modern theology" is another man's "heresy."

of course you find it creepy. I find the prosperity gospel creepy. Our religious preferences and our political preferences are probably quite strongly linked to each other.

I'm not saying there's no link, but I am not quite so willing to assume that all we are talking about here with the theological discussion is political preference. I think it's perfectly possible to be theologically conservative and politically liberal, and I think that one can recognize the various strands of theology significant to Christianity (and Judaism) even if one dislikes certain of them.

The prosperity gospel as currently practiced is shallow and dumb (and rather heretical if one takes Jesus seriously, IMO). However, I do think an understanding of Christianity and its underpinnings requires an understanding of the aspects of the scriptures and thought which give rise to the prosperity gospel and similar ideas (like the icky claims by various religious right types that weather is a punishment for equal rights for gays or some such). In part because the discussion of and rejection of these ideas, for the most part, are part of a broader conversation.

Similarly, although more relevant for serious discussion of Christian theology, IMO, is the discussion of "the church" and what that means, and that clearly has a number of overlapping views, some which focus more on the collective nature than others. But I don't think that how one thinks about this is merely dependent on politics or even need implicate one's personal politics so much in order to discuss. That Christianity both focuses on a personal relationship and individual responsibility and on community and one's responsibility for those other than one's self, including suffering for the church as a whole -- is pretty clear. That people try to twist this indicated to me either dishonesty (re Beck, that doesn't shock me) or simple ignorance about Christian theology or context (which doesn't shock me either).

operative 05-31-2011 01:46 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanie (Post 211286)
I'm not saying there's no link, but I am not quite so willing to assume that all we are talking about here with the theological discussion is political preference. I think it's perfectly possible to be theologically conservative and politically liberal, and I think that one can recognize the various strands of theology significant to Christianity (and Judaism) even if one dislikes certain of them.

The prosperity gospel as currently practiced is shallow and dumb (and rather heretical if one takes Jesus seriously, IMO). However, I do think an understanding of Christianity and its underpinnings requires an understanding of the aspects of the scriptures and thought which give rise to the prosperity gospel and similar ideas (like the icky claims by various religious right types that weather is a punishment for equal rights for gays or some such). In part because the discussion of and rejection of these ideas, for the most part, are part of a broader conversation.

Similarly, although more relevant for serious discussion of Christian theology, IMO, is the discussion of "the church" and what that means, and that clearly has a number of overlapping views, some which focus more on the collective nature than others. But I don't think that how one thinks about this is merely dependent on politics or even need implicate one's personal politics so much in order to discuss. That Christianity both focuses on a personal relationship and individual responsibility and on community and one's responsibility for those other than one's self, including suffering for the church as a whole -- is pretty clear. That people try to twist this indicated to me either dishonesty (re Beck, that doesn't shock me) or simple ignorance about Christian theology or context (which doesn't shock me either).

I wouldn't equate care for your fellow man (or woman) with the notion of collective salvation--not that you're necessarily trying to do that, but it's easy to reach that conclusion. The LDS church heavily emphasizes charity and service, but there's no notion of collective salvation. Members are among the most giving of time and money of any church, bt members are also the most conservative on average. There's also a difference between emphasizing private charity and wanting the government to engage in welfare state politics that mandate it.

I don't like any articulation of a political view that involves "This is what the Bible says." Whether that's those who want to have schools praying and teaching creationism, or having a crypto-theocratic redistributionist state on the basis of Biblical teachings.

handle 05-31-2011 01:57 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx (Post 211244)
christine o'donnell clearly has no idea what the fuck she's talking about, but just for the record, there is a non-crazy reading of the establishment clause that's a bit more nuanced than "separation of church and state". this interpretation says the clause simply means the government cannot promote or denigrate any particular religion, and must allow everyone to practice any religion freely. o'donnell is wrong because creationism promotes a specific religious doctrine. but there's interesting court precedent to support this narrower reading of the establishment clause. there's a really interesting case involving a local government paying for transportation for kids being taken to private religious schools, i'll try and find it.

Why is religion treated any differently than any other for profit business, period?
I am not pleased with having to pay more taxes to offset the special tax exempt treatment these entities get, especially while they enjoy the privilege of having influence over voters and lawmakers. It's a crime.

operative 05-31-2011 02:22 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by handle (Post 211290)
Why is religion treated any differently than any other for profit business, period?
I am not pleased with having to pay more taxes to offset the special tax exempt treatment these entities get, especially while they enjoy the privilege of having influence over voters and lawmakers. It's a crime.

Churches have positive social capital--virtually every scholar on the subject agrees on that observation. Moreover, churches are not profit seeking institutions, the same as non-profit organizations which are also subjected to a different tax code. Would you support ending the different treatment of other non-profits, as well?

miceelf 05-31-2011 02:28 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 211282)
Sure, but there's a general direction that Christian theology went, that coincided with the advent of modern democracy, inalienable rights, and economic dynamism, and I'd say that's the individualistic approach. The collective approach is a definite rebellion against that.

No, the recent passion for the free market and the downgrading of social gospel is a much more recent phenomenon within Christianity than the timeline you suggest.

handle 05-31-2011 02:29 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 211295)
Churches have positive social capital--virtually every scholar on the subject agrees on that observation. Moreover, churches are not profit seeking institutions, the same as non-profit organizations which are also subjected to a different tax code. Would you support ending the different treatment of other non-profits, as well?

Yes. And no profit means no church. The overhead for a church is nothing but utilities, shelter, and what they decide to redistribute, they have no tangible product*, so all else is pure profit. When they do charity work, it is invariably coupled with shameless self promotion, and manipulation of the recipients.

*Except holy water, and various iconic charms and (action?) figures. (added)

miceelf 05-31-2011 02:33 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanie (Post 211286)
I'm not saying there's no link, but I am not quite so willing to assume that all we are talking about here with the theological discussion is political preference. I think it's perfectly possible to be theologically conservative and politically liberal, and I think that one can recognize the various strands of theology significant to Christianity (and Judaism) even if one dislikes certain of them.


Oh, I wasn't meaning to imply that political preferences drive religious preferences. Just that the two tend to go together. I think the labeling of "theologically conservative" is as problematic as the politically conservative label, so whether one is theologically one and politically another is not predictable.

Forgetting about the broad labels, I was merely saying that particular theological beliefs and particular political beliefs tend to covary. So, if a big part of one's theologies is mutual concern and the old testament justice ideal, then one's political ideology is also more likely to be consonant with that.

But in short, I was NOT positiing that politics drives theology. I think vice versa is just as likely and third causes (like personality and experience) are even more likely, but my claim was of covariation, not causality.

operative 05-31-2011 02:33 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 211296)
No, the recent passion for the free market and the downgrading of social gospel is a much more recent phenomenon within Christianity than the timeline you suggest.

I'm not referring strictly to free market capitalism. I'm talking about the shift to the emphasis on the individual, which goes hand in hand with Locke and other social contract theorists who are responsible for our modern sense of individual rights and liberties.

operative 05-31-2011 02:35 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by handle (Post 211297)
When they do charity work, it is invariably coupled with shameless self promotion, and manipulation of the recipients.

So, how's that different than what other charities do?

miceelf 05-31-2011 02:37 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 211301)
So, how's that different than what other charities do?

most non-religious charities are NOT trying to "convert" the recipients of charity. They just aren't.

The non-religious soup kitchen isn't trying to convert hungry atheists into well-fed Christians. They are just trying to convert hungry people into fed people.

operative 05-31-2011 02:43 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 211302)
most non-religious charities are NOT trying to "convert" the recipients of charity. They just aren't.

The non-religious soup kitchen isn't trying to convert hungry atheists into well-fed Christians. They are just trying to convert hungry people into fed people.

They're still out to get more money for themselves to perpetuate their own existence.

handle 05-31-2011 02:53 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 211303)
They're still out to get more money for themselves to perpetuate their own existence.

But not the ideology.

miceelf 05-31-2011 02:58 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 211303)
They're still out to get more money for themselves to perpetuate their own existence.

did you completely miss the part of the quote that had "manipulation of the recipients"??

operative 05-31-2011 03:02 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by handle (Post 211305)
But not the ideology.

Sure it is. It wants the recipients to think that the organization is good; many times, this will lead to their testimonies being used to solicit more funds. "This organization saved my life" is no different than "this organization saved my soul." Using your framework of analysis, both are strategies to perpetuate the existence of the organization.

operative 05-31-2011 03:03 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 211307)
did you completely miss the part of the quote that had "manipulation of the recipients"??

Ever read a testimony from a recipient of aid from a charity?

handle 05-31-2011 03:06 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by operative (Post 211308)
Sure it is. It wants the recipients to think that the organization is good; many times, this will lead to their testimonies being used to solicit more funds. "This organization saved my life" is no different than "this organization saved my soul." Using your framework of analysis, both are strategies to perpetuate the existence of the organization.

Yes but "this organization saved my life" is the tangible truth "jesus is lord".. not so much. there is no comparison between the two entities, other than some of the tangible results. One is reality, the other is ideology.

operative 05-31-2011 03:15 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by handle (Post 211310)
Yes but "this organization saved my life" is the tangible truth "jesus is lord".. not so much. there is no comparison between the two entities, other than some of the tangible results. One is reality, the other is ideology.

I don't think you're quite understanding the argument.

Charities give assistance to people.
Through giving assistance to people, they hope to change the person's ideology, from being neutral to supporting the organization, so that they can potentially be used in fundraising to perpetuate the existence of the charity.

Churches give assistance to people.
Through giving assistance to people, they hope to change a person's ideology to recruit new members who will donate to the church, enabling them to perpetuate their own existence.

Moreover, depending on the non-religious charity, a recipient may become a donor in the future, or in some other way may repay the organization by helping it to gain more money, by changing the ideology of others.

The only difference between the two is that religious organizations draw most of their funds from members of the organizations, whereas non-religious organizations raise most of their funds from individuals who wouldn't consider themselves to be 'part' of the organization (not that that discourages organizations from sending out material that seeks to "make" a donor 'part' of the organization). In fact, a sense of belongingness exists in both, in many cases.

IE:
You hear a story of someone who had cancer and who received assistance from an organization that helps cancer patients. It moves you, changing your ideology from being neutral of said organization to being supportive and you give money to it. Suddenly you're "part" of the effort to help 'fight' cancer.

All charitable organizations fight for a scarce resource: donation money. Every dollar that goes to help fight animal cruelty is a dollar that didn't go to fight cancer or to help soldiers. Thus every organization seeks to convince you, philosophically, that their organization is the one that you should give money to. This is an attempt to change your ideology and your preference set.

stephanie 05-31-2011 04:36 PM

Re: Values Added: It's the Religion, Stupid (Amy Sullivan & Melinda Henneberger)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 211299)
Oh, I wasn't meaning to imply that political preferences drive religious preferences. Just that the two tend to go together.

I don't so much disagree as think it's more complicated than that allows. Of course, part of this depends on what we mean by "conservative" or "liberal" in a religious sense. I'm not comfortable with many casual applications of those terms (as you indicate below). For example, I don't see American evangelicalism as "conservative" religiously at all. It's easier to see within denominations, too.

It's true that there's been a move away in recent years from the traditional breaks between denominations to a broader split between liberal and conservative approaches (in a way that misuses the term "conservative"), but there are some groups to which this does not apply all that well, and I want to resist this anyway, since I think we are focusing on the wrong questions when it gets simplified in that way too much.

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I think the labeling of "theologically conservative" is as problematic as the politically conservative label, so whether one is theologically one and politically another is not predictable.
Yep.

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Forgetting about the broad labels, I was merely saying that particular theological beliefs and particular political beliefs tend to covary. So, if a big part of one's theologies is mutual concern and the old testament justice ideal, then one's political ideology is also more likely to be consonant with that.
Okay.


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