Re: On Goats
 

But the reason for mocking him isn't in regard to whether he was factually correct. It's because he exhibited no professional integrity. The salient issue has nothing to do with Edwards at all. Mickey was willing to run with a rumor regardless of whether there was any principled reason to do so. His unsubstantiated claims of vague support don't especially help his case.

Re: On Goats
 

Right, but obviously this was not an example of a "mere allegation." It's not coincidence that Kaus' contention turned out to be true.

To answer your question: we should have granted this particular rumour special advantage because it was true.

Re: On Goats
 

And the standard for judging the truth of a rumor (on its face) is therefore the inherent truth of the claim, regardless of evidence or propriety. Got it.

Re: On Goats
 

It was fine to mock him when the rumor seemed outlandish. Once the rumor was proven true, to continue to mock him for it is as stupid as (hypothetical) freepers going after Michelle Obama for hating whitey.

Re: On Goats
 

That's just not the case. I'm as glad as you are to have seen Edwards outed as a pathetic asshole. But there's no possible fact about Edwards that could make Mickey's complete disregard of ethical and professional standards alright. Dishing rumors in public without substantiation is wrong, even when it turns out (as it will sometimes, inevitably) that a particular rumor is true.

Re: On Goats
 

Jeff, you're missing the point. Even if Mickey acted badly in ways that call for mockery of some kind, the particular term of mockery "goat" needs to be retired and replaced with a new term. Because while at the time he posted them, Mickey's comments re Edwards suffered from three flaws:
-lack of evidence
-impropriety
-suspicions of falsehood

BUT the term "goat" was a joke about the THIRD flaw. Go back at look at the comment threads on old KF posts. The goat joke was ABOUT Mickey telling lies.

Now it turns out it wasn't a lie. It may still have been bad form, but since the "goat" joke was ABOUT the lying part, it's just not the right joke here.

Re: On Goats
 

Coming up next on the next Apollovlog: nikkibong and Jyminee discuss why the United States must embrace trial by duress.

Re: On Goats
 

No it wasn't. As it was most often told, it was phrased as a question; e.g., "Are the rumors about Mickey Kaus and certain barnyard animals TRUE??? It would be irresponsible NOT to speculate!!!"

It was all about Mickey harping on something for which he had no evidence and how he danced around making any direct accusations, while doing no reportorial or investigative work.

However, it's good to know the joke still makes his supporters so sensitive. We will therefore keep it alive with a vengeance.

Re: On Goats
 

"It would be irresponsible not to speculate" is so much fun to say.

Re: On Goats
 

And also, how great it is to be frisky.

Re: On Goats
 

My interpretation of the many Goat threads (I mainly read them on Yglesias, Ezra Klein and other places away from KF) was that Mickey was operating under the logic that because the Edwards camp wasn't denying an accusation that Mickey had no evidence for, that that made it okay for him to continue to push those rumors because the lack of a denial constituted some evidence of proof of the original rumor. By extension of that logic, ANY ridiculous scenario would be fair game because lack of a denial only reinforces the plausibility of the initial charge. Use a little imagination, add a goat and voilah!! Mickey has shown a tendency to eschew good journalistic principles over the years, in order to push sensationalistic stories and headlines, so in his case I think it's fair to continue to mock him. Perhaps if he just admitted to being a conservative gossip columnist, people would be less interested in goofing on him. I'm not a journalist like you or Nikki, but I have always had a great deal of respect for the ones who try to do it right and responsibly. I only can imagine how hard it is to function and try to make a living in such a restricted way, given the easy chances at gaining fame, $ and notoriety by just being a little lazier and less careful or principled. The jokes are directly tied to the journalistic approach that Mickey chooses to take.

Brown v. Whitman
 

Should be a very interesting race. She has a big jump on Brown's announcement and has been inundating the airwaves with slick ads (and a very hostile campaign against her primary opponent).

A Dem. victory for governor would be huge, since the state assembly and senate are solidly liberal.

Of course, we all remember what happened the last time a Dem. held the office: utterwingnuttery prevailed, Grey Davis was kicked out, and the craziest special election in American history brought the Governator to power. (I grudgingly admit he has actually turned out to be a very moderate Repub.)

Re: On Goats
 

I like this way of putting it somewhat better, but ultimately I still have the same problem with it. Asserting the truth of a proposition without regard for the facts is the moral equivalent of telling a lie. The happenstance of accidental accuracy doesn't help clean the slate, I think.

I view the "goat" joke entirely in terms of Mickey's willingness to assert something damaging to Edwards, regardless of evidence. I strongly feel that there's no new fact that can change the moral value of having made that assertion.

Re: On Goats
 

I kind of want to agree with you here, but I think the fact that Edwards actually did turn out to have a love-child makes the goat-blowing joke somehow funnier, so I support its continued use.

Re: Brown v. Whitman
 

Good points, all.

Re: On Goats
 

"A somewhat popular blogger" says near the end of "This is why you can’t have nice things:"

Re: On Goats
 

There's actually an argument that kinda makes sense in that original post--the sort of mutual high-fiving epitomized by the "blowing goats" joke demonstrates that the Netroots are an insular movement that won't be able to go mainstream. Not sure if that is correct, though--just a thought.

I actually stopped reading kausfiles a few months ago because I just got sick of it, but it's worth pointing out that Mickey was also correct about a key aspect of Obama's health reform push: that what Mickey called "Orzagism"--the effort to bend the cost curve--was a political loser. Obama thought he would be able to lure in a few moderate GOPers with a bill that constrained long-term medical costs, but by cracking open the door to the dread fear of rationing, he let professional liars like Palin scream "death panel" and galvanized opposition to the bill.

Re: On Goats
 

If so, then praise the FSM, I say. The "mainstream" is what got us GW Bush as president, the invasion of Iraq, and the belief that Jonah Goldberg should be paid to opine in a once-pretty-good newspaper. Among about nine thousand other things you probably don't need me to type out.

Sorry. I'm not buying any argument that purports to explain why HCR turned into a brutal battle by laying blame at any lefty's feet, including the President's, particularly when it comes to "messaging" or any Kausian wanktastic bloggorrhea like that. Anyone with an ounce of sense and/or a memory that reaches back to the early 1990s knew this was going to be an all-hands-on-deck war to oppose by the Republicans, their paymasters, and their mouth-breathing followers. The lies and FUD would have been spewed by Palin, et al, no matter how the plan was constructed or pitched.

And as to the cost savings (or attempts thereto) I will only say that without that as part of the package, I probably wouldn't support HCR myself.

Re: Brown v. Whitman
 

For more on this, not to mention a valuable additional history refresher, Roy Edroso has a very fine post up, which begins as follows.

I am undecided whether that last link is a subtle slap at Ross Douthat, because the contrast between its vacuity and Roy's post could not be more profound.

Bonus! Roy recalls the last time Time magazine made a funny.

Re: On Goats
 

Okay, one more, just because Scott Lemieux says it so well:

[Ed. note: prob. should be "yoostabee."]

Re: He is assured of at least one vote...
 

Well, I meant harkin, but was conceding Mickey and his mom when I said 'three', above.

Re: On Goats
 

Sounds like Jon Swift is endorsing Mickey from the grave:

Ceci n'est pas ...
 

une affiche de campagne.

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/7608/notmickeykaus.jpg

Representative Dave Anderson???
 

The trend appears to be spreading.

Political analysis of this bold move by Tim F., who may have set a record for Most Inside Baseball Packed Into One Blog Post.

Gawker begins oppo research on Mickey
 

[snip]
"We'll of course comb through the hundreds of thousands (millions?) or words he's written in his career, looking for examples of homophobic or racist statements he's made. And we'll touch base with old pals—like Ann Coulter—colleagues, girlfriends—like Arianna Huffington—classmates, etc., in search of embarrassing or damaging information, which we'll assemble into a handy little dossier and publish here.

“We’ll pull together whatever we come up with—maybe nothing!—and post it here. Kaus is a great writer, a very smart man, and a genuine blogging pioneer, and we wish him nothing but the best in his campaign. We just think it would be a shame if he went to all that trouble without getting taken seriously. And you know they’re taking you seriously in politics when they start trying to destroy you.”

-Gawker

Re: Gawker begins oppo research on Mickey
 

Note that the original contains a dingalink!

Global Media Juggernaut™ FTW!

Re: Gawker begins oppo research on Mickey
 

And not only a dingalink; THE dingalink if you were going to make only one. You know, I think that diavlog was the first time I ever watched a bloggingheads 3 times.

EDIT: Here it is, in case you don't want to step in Gawker to get it.

Re: Gawker begins oppo research on Mickey
 

Yeah, it really IS the dingalink. It's probably the first intra-BHeads meme, referenced in so many Bob/Mickey DV's after that.

Most overpaid "journalist" in the world
 

Here's the link:

Re: Most overpaid "journalist" in the world
 

It's about time the CA Democratic Party got back to the important things like serving the interests of affluent, white bloggers!!

Re: Most overpaid "journalist" in the world
 

$500,000 ain't diddly.

Re: Most overpaid "journalist" in the world
 

LOL! Now that's how to rip a quote out of context! Dingalink of the week!

Re: Senator Mickey Kaus???
 

Guess who just scored an exclusive interview with Rielle Hunter!!!

Not Mickey!!!

Mick-ey! Mick-ey! Mick-ey!
 

This one's cute:

Now, that I think more about it, if Boxer is 69, this could be her last go-round. This current campaign could be about building name recognition, defining his agenda, etc. California is one sick puppy right now, and wouldn't it be interesting if Mickey took the form of a kinder, gentler Bullworth, and really jazzed people up, a la The One.

:)

Re: Mick-ey! Mick-ey! Mick-ey!
 

So, all we need is for Mickey to be introduced to a hot Latina (Hallea Berria?), who falls for him, and who, it later turns out, is either a school teacher or a union official.

;)

Re: Mick-ey! Mick-ey! Mick-ey!
 

My mom sent me the article (though I'd already seen it), with that part bolded. I think she has a mental image of me the way I look when I visit home (in my pajamas 24/7, eating cereal out of the box and ice cream out of the carton) and hasn't figured out that I don't look like that all the time.

Re: Most overpaid "journalist" in the world
 

More on this from Brad DeLong, in the "Economics of Weblogging...," which reveals, by the Kaus metric, how scandalously underpaid are three other 'Heads: Ta-Nehisi Coates, Ezra Klein, and Matt Yglesias.

And don't miss the footnote.

Re: Most overpaid "journalist" in the world
 

That DeLong piece was freakin' AWESOME!! At the impotent level that he posts, Mickey is indeed the "welfare queen" of the blogosphere.

Re: Mick-ey! Mick-ey! Mick-ey!
 

Jennifer Lopez and a GPS with a Mexican accent.

Re: Most overpaid "journalist" in the world
 

A) Mickey>Ezra

B) In the footnote: Mickey's piece>Ezra's piece

You're welcome.