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-   -   Non-Glibertarian Edition (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward) (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?t=6913)

AemJeff 07-27-2011 01:46 AM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 218686)
there is a god!! :)

But, I happen to know that you and I share a view on that!

whburgess 07-27-2011 01:46 AM

Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 218625)
People can "say" that the Sun is an agent of the CIA, but that doesn't make it so. I think for myself, and am non-ideological, so it would make little sense for someone to say that.

But let's assume that this could be reasonable claimed. Should these people shut up, simply because it might hurt my feelings to have my ideology criticized (it doesn't)? Which returns us to the fact of whether anti-Islamism is harmful or not. Just because it hurts the feelings of Muslims, does not mean that it is harmful, anymore than criticism of my beliefs is harmful, because it might hurt my feelings. In fact, I'd say that anti-Islamism is beneficial. We should not pretend that Islam is a benign religion, and that it does no harm to the people who have submitted, and to others. It does. As I said, I wish for all men to be free, and not be in a state of submission to a 7th century desert ideology.

I really doubt that your motive is that you feel sorry for American Muslims enslaved to their ideology. Your way of going about it really doesn't make that claim credible. I think you know you wouldn't convince any Muslim to change their mind like this. But carry on..it's your right.

Wonderment 07-27-2011 02:09 AM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:


And if the people who use the emergency room as a doctor's office were going to pay their bills they'd probably go to, you know, a doctor's office.
You are not understanding how this works. People do not use the emergency room as a doctor's office. I volunteer in a hospital emergency department. We only treat patients who have symptoms of a true medical emergency. Others don't get past the triage nurse. They will be referred to a non-emergency clinic, a private physician or be sent home after a minimal intervention.

What typically happens in the real world is that patients fail to seek medical treatment UNTIL they have a true emergency. They postpone needed care and they don't get preventative care (colonoscopies, mammograms, regular check-ups). They wind up in the ED because they couldn't afford non-emergency care. They arrive in ambulances, in extreme pain or with serious injuries. People have strokes, heart attacks, seizures, falls and other accidents, for example.

Sulla the Dictator 07-27-2011 02:17 AM

Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 218536)
We'll see. Both sides need to run on the economy. When the Republicans can simply emit slogans about cutting government "fraud and waste," reducing foreign debt, and reducing taxes for billionaire "job creators," it may sound appealing. But when they actually have to detail how they will get there (slashing entitlements), voters will hate them.

That seems to be the conventional wisdom. However, we'll see. If the Walkers and Kaisichs start showing real results and political momentum, I'd say even this slim hope of Obama (That the American people are irredeemably corrupted) is gone.

Sulla the Dictator 07-27-2011 02:21 AM

Re: Non-Glibertarian Edition (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
The reason Conservatives never "call Libertarians in the morning" is because they're an IMAGINARY partner. People like Nick Gillespe or Matt Welch, or probably Katherine Mangu-Ward, do not vote for our candidates and aren't particularly vocal on many of the issues we actually share. Gillespe actually says he hasn't voted for a Republican. In fact, if memory serves the last guy he said he voted for was Mondale.

All it takes is to see the results that the Libertarian candidate usually gets in order to know how sizable this group of people really is. Its tiny. And I'm coming to believe it has more to do with distinguishing themselves from the cadre of leftist professionals in urban settings than to serve as a genuine statement of principle at this point.

Sulla the Dictator 07-27-2011 02:22 AM

Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 218555)
And I didn't hear W make outrageous claims about secession when he was governor of Texas.

He didn't host a secession convention in the capitol building.

sugarkang 07-27-2011 02:56 AM

Re: Non-Glibertarian Edition (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator (Post 218691)
All it takes is to see the results that the Libertarian candidate usually gets in order to know how sizable this group of people really is. Its tiny. And I'm coming to believe it has more to do with distinguishing themselves from the cadre of leftist professionals in urban settings than to serve as a genuine statement of principle at this point.

I don't think you can judge the size of the libertarian coalition from the support garnered by a libertarian candidate. Most libertarians emphasize economics, so they would know better than most of the futility of trying to erect a third party under current conditions.

As far as never voting for the GOP, I would have voted for Christie if he ran in 2012. I'm planning to vote for him in 2016.

Regarding distinguishing themselves against leftist professionals, I'd have to really disagree. Do you see how much libertarians are hated around here despite having so much in common?

apple 07-27-2011 08:12 AM

Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by whburgess (Post 218688)
I really doubt that your motive is that you feel sorry for American Muslims enslaved to their ideology. Your way of going about it really doesn't make that claim credible. I think you know you wouldn't convince any Muslim to change their mind like this. But carry on..it's your right.

That is unlikely to happen anyway. I think that Islam should be made socially unacceptable, and that might have an effect.

badhatharry 07-27-2011 08:30 AM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 218689)
You are not understanding how this works. People do not use the emergency room as a doctor's office. I volunteer in a hospital emergency department. We only treat patients who have symptoms of a true medical emergency. Others don't get past the triage nurse. They will be referred to a non-emergency clinic, a private physician or be sent home after a minimal intervention.

What constitutes a true medical emergency? This is from 2003. I'm sure prices have gone up since then.

Quote:

Emergency department services are expensive when compared to a primary care visit to a clinic or a physicianoffice. Based on the most recent data from calendar year 2003, there were 1,550,595 emergency department
encounters in Wisconsin. The average charge for each encounter (all payer sources) was $674.69. The average charge for Medicaid, BadgerCare and General Assistance Medical Program (Milwaukee County) encounters was
$604.74 covering 332,888 encounters. In Milwaukee County alone, nearly 55% of emergency department encounters were for primary care services that could have been cared for in more appropriate primary care settings. The average charge for a primary care visit at a clinic or physician office is between $100 - $150.

badhatharry 07-27-2011 08:34 AM

Re: Non-Glibertarian Edition (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator (Post 218691)
The reason Conservatives never "call Libertarians in the morning" is because they're an IMAGINARY partner.

imaginary or not, they are more closely aligned with republicans than democrats. After all what party is Ron Paul running in?

badhatharry 07-27-2011 09:34 AM

Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 218704)
I think that Islam should be made socially unacceptable, and that might have an effect.

remember, almost two billion people.

Starwatcher162536 07-27-2011 10:31 AM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Seems to me we are in the worst possible position for how our healthcare is structured. The State has to subsidize medicine but isn't allowed mechanisms to incentivize lifestyles that would minimize the amount of medicine needed. At this point if I were King I would set up a program that gives a free Gym membership to everyone and also give them $10 every time they spend two hours on the treadmill.

apple 07-27-2011 10:32 AM

Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 218708)
remember, almost two billion people.

Does the number of people following a particular ideology have any bearing on whether or not it should be socially acceptable or unacceptable?

badhatharry 07-27-2011 10:42 AM

Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 218711)
Does the number of people following a particular ideology have any bearing on whether or not it should be socially acceptable or unacceptable?

It has a bearing on whether it will be socially acceptable. Were it not, there wouldn't be many adherents.

badhatharry 07-27-2011 10:44 AM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 (Post 218710)
The State has to subsidize medicine but isn't allowed mechanisms to incentivize lifestyles that would minimize the amount of medicine needed.

cigarette taxes.

Starwatcher162536 07-27-2011 10:55 AM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
A narrow exception.

stephanie 07-27-2011 11:39 AM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Willard (Post 218664)
What you haven't mentioned is that the emergency room plays a different role to different people. When I get sick, I go to my doctor with my health insurance card. When an uninsured person gets sick, he goes to the emergency room. If you take preventative care out of the picture, the right of emergency room care starts to look quite a bit like a right to health care.

This is actually one of the reasons why the whole "they want to take away our freedom" argument re health care reform is stupid. It's a lot more expensive to handle it this way, but we aren't willing as a society to refuse emergency care to people who need it.

It's depressing if the response is "well, we should," but so far I've only really seen that on internet boards and the like.

miceelf 07-27-2011 12:25 PM

Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator (Post 218690)
That seems to be the conventional wisdom. However, we'll see. If the Walkers and Kaisichs start showing real results and political momentum, I'd say even this slim hope of Obama (That the American people are irredeemably corrupted) is gone.

That would depend on the results that they show. Seems that some results are popping up and it's not helping Kaisich et al.

Wonderment 07-27-2011 01:52 PM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

What constitutes a true medical emergency?
The data you cite is misleading. If you argue that people who are treated by emergency care physicians and nurses could have been treated more appropriately by primary care physicians, that's sometimes true, but only in retrospect.

If a child presents with a high fever or a severely sprained ankle, or if an elderly patient fainted, they may end up being fine. After the fact it's often easy to say the Primary Care Physician could have treated their symptoms, but in the moment the patient shows up (having been unable to get an appt with the PCP for various reasons -- distance, no appointments available, good reasons to play it safe, etc., etc.) you have to treat it as an emergency. The fever could be something very serious, the fainting could have been a stroke, and the ankle could require immediate surgery.

This type of visit to the ED is going to occur no matter what insurance the patient has and is often the case when the patient has "Cadillac" insurance; they go to the ER because they are scared of having to wait overnight or a couple of days for the appointment.

In any case, your original claim that people use the ED as "a doctor's office" is a huge distortion of reality.

apple 07-27-2011 02:14 PM

Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 218712)
It has a bearing on whether it will be socially acceptable. Were it not, there wouldn't be many adherents.

Well, I wasn't really discussing whether Islam IS socially acceptable, but whether it should be. Also, your second statement is fallacious. A religion can have many adherents throughout the word, yet be socially unacceptable in other parts. And that's what we were discussing, whether Islam should be socially unacceptable throughout the Western world.

popcorn_karate 07-27-2011 04:51 PM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jimM47 (Post 218643)
You've indicated your disagreement (dismissiveness? contempt?) with Mangu-Ward's conclusion, but you don't indicate why you disagree.

Mangu-Ward is acknowledging that immigration has costs to the United States and U.S. taxpayers, such as benefits granted by the social safety net. But she states that those costs are outweighed by the benefits that the United States economy and the U.S. taxpayer receive. The evidence I've seen suggests she is correct.

So, are you disputing Mangu-Ward's empirical prediction that a more permissive immigration policy would be economically beneficial to the United States? Do you accept her prediction, but nevertheless think it is objectionable that one consequence of it would be that undeserving immigrants could benefits from the social safety net? Do you worry about some other consequence, such as social dislocation, lack of assimilation, or other cultural effects from unbounded immigration?

Your objection is unclear, because Mangu-Ward doesn't actually say in the clip you highlight that immigration under any circumstances and in any amount is always desirable. She posits a cost-benefit analysis in which immigration is a net benefit to the things she (and presumably any good conservative) cares about.


I think that the stats are manipulated, but acknowledging that i have no better data, i will concede that there may be an increase in GDP from illegal immigration (which would no longer be illegal in mangu-ward world). But, i think it also has the effect of pulling the rug out from under the labor market and further exacerbating the growing inequality in our society. Labor has seen no rise in real income for the last thirty years, while our GDP has drastically increased - that problem can only get worse by flooding the bottom end of the labor market. however, It is pretty awesome for the people hiring nannies, maids, gardeners etc. I have yet to figure out why liberals are in favor of gutting the poor and working class other than some sort of white-guilt phenomenon that is assuaged by carne asada tacos.

badhatharry 07-27-2011 06:27 PM

Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 218734)
Well, I wasn't really discussing whether Islam IS socially acceptable, but whether it should be. Also, your second statement is fallacious. A religion can have many adherents throughout the word, yet be socially unacceptable in other parts. And that's what we were discussing, whether Islam should be socially unacceptable throughout the Western world.

thanks for clarifying

apple 07-27-2011 06:57 PM

Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 218756)
thanks for clarifying

You're welcome.

stephanie 07-27-2011 07:02 PM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by popcorn_karate (Post 218748)
I have yet to figure out why liberals are in favor of gutting the poor and working class other than some sort of white-guilt phenomenon that is assuaged by carne asada tacos.

I have some thoughts, including disagreement on the assumption that there's a gutting of the poor and working class, but it seems like a good thing to bring up in the Dem Party thread.

badhatharry 07-27-2011 07:34 PM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 218727)
The data you cite is misleading. If you argue that people who are treated by emergency care physicians and nurses could have been treated more appropriately by primary care physicians, that's sometimes true, but only in retrospect.

From what you are describing, practically everything is an emergency or can be interpreted as one. And from what I understand hospitals have to be very wary about who they turn away and for what reason. There are huge fines that can be levied. It's hard to argue with you about this because you believe, much like Jeff, that every one should be treated and if the ER is the only place that treatment can occur, then so be it.

On the other hand, I see people who are in our country illegally are putting a big burden on our health care system and essentially taking away services from legal residents. This is not to say that I think anyone should be left to die.

Wonderment 07-27-2011 07:52 PM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

It's hard to argue with you about this because you believe, much like Jeff, that every one should be treated and if the ER is the only place that treatment can occur, then so be it.
It's not just what we believe; it's the law regarding emergency health care.

Neighborhood clinics take a great deal of the burden off hospitals and provide a much cheaper and more sensible approach. The hospital where I volunteer, for example, has 13 clinics and urgent (non-emergency) care centers. There are also a dozen or so more non-profit clinics in low-income areas of our country that are affiliated with other hospitals.

Quote:

On the other hand, I see people who are in our country illegally are putting a big burden on our health care system and essentially taking away services from legal residents. This is not to say that I think anyone should be left to die.
The people who are in our country "illegally" are providing you with cheap goods and services. Do you think the people who pick your vegetables are entitled to a pap smear and a mammogram? Do you want their children to get vaccinated for polio and whooping cough? Should they be deported if they have a stroke?

ALso, since you are opposed to "Obamacare" insurance mandates, are you in favor of uninsured "legal" American citizens gaming the emergency care system? Where do you think they go when they collapse?

badhatharry 07-27-2011 08:15 PM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 218784)
It's not just what we believe; it's the law regarding emergency health care.

Yes, I know about the law, obviously, but thanks for the link.

Quote:

Neighborhood clinics take a great deal of the burden off hospitals and provide a much cheaper and more sensible approach. The hospital where I volunteer, for example, has 13 clinics and urgent (non-emergency) care centers. There are also a dozen or so more non-profit clinics in low-income areas of our country that are affiliated with other hospitals.
Sounds sensible.

Quote:

The people who are in our country "illegally" are providing you with cheap goods and services. Do you think the people who pick your vegetables are entitled to a pap smear and a mammogram? Do you want their children to get vaccinated for polio and whooping cough? Should they be deported if they have a stroke?
I don't buy this nor do I want cheap goods and services if they depend on santioning illegal activity. The whole system is corrosive.

Quote:

ALso, since you are opposed to "Obamacare" insurance mandates, are you in favor of uninsured "legal" American citizens gaming the emergency care system? Where do you think they go when they collapse
I was relegating my comments to the issue of people who are in the country illegally. As I said before, people who have legal status at the minimum have to bear the cost of a bad credit rating if they refuse to pay or make other arrangements. But, I'm actually not in favor of anyone gaming the system.

sugarkang 07-28-2011 12:05 AM

Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 218704)
That is unlikely to happen anyway. I think that Islam should be made socially unacceptable, and that might have an effect.

The best way to destroy an extremist religion is to send adherents a bunch of American movies, including pornography.

Sulla the Dictator 07-28-2011 12:44 AM

Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 218724)
That would depend on the results that they show. Seems that some results are popping up and it's not helping Kaisich et al.

Its pretty early yet. I'd say we won't know until a full year goes by. These GOP governors are glorious as far as I'm concerned.

eeeeeeeli 07-31-2011 10:15 AM

Re: "Fringe People" (Geller et al)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hal Morris (Post 218599)
Well, there's just so much wonderful synergy between painting all Muslims as devils (or "the great Satan" - hey there's a catchy phrase) and egging on the people willing to believe Obama is a secret Muslim.

At the site, "My Right Wing Dad", Between 5 and 10% of all RW forwarded emails (in this collection of well over 1000) are linked to "Muslims are Scary". See http://myrightwingdad.blogspot.com/s...%20ARE%20SCARY

Here's my response to one that my mother forwarded to me and was quite ready to believe, and she is an intelligent person who has til recently never expressed any "fringe" political ideas -- now she's awash in them all due to these emails that are churned out by the hundreds and made to look like they just came from a friend of a friend.

http://therealtruthproject.blogspot....-gaza-450.html

Here are some related articles:

http://therealtruthproject.blogspot....pose-mass.html

http://therealtruthproject.blogspot....m-and-her.html

http://therealtruthproject.blogspot....ama-is_31.html

I was pretty disturbed by Adam and Katherine's almost complete dismissal of any link between Islamophobic right wing nationalism in America and Breivik's actions.

Did they advocate specific acts of violence? No. But their hyperbolic assumptions did advocate a climate of paranoia and existential crisis. There was a clear fear being promulgated that America might be taken over by radical Islam.

Here's an example. There was a time when anti-black rhetoric was widespread, legitimately discussed at the national level. This time period also coincided with an organized response to the perceived threat, often resulting in violence. The idea that this was a coincidence is absurd.

Anti-Islamic hysteria isn't as entrenched and widespread as anti-black hysteria was decades ago. But is it such a stretch to assume that there is a correlation between public rhetoric that objectifies and dehumanizes a group and violence directed toward that group, or political power perceived to be supporting it?

I'm perfectly fine with saying that specific right-wing nationalist pundits did not cause Breivick's assault. But the ideas that they supported and gave voice to clearly did.

Am I calling for those ideas to be silenced? No. Just as people ought to say horrible, untrue, and biased things about blacks, gays or any other group. But their words and ideas, wrong as they are, will have consequences, just as right and true ideas will have consequences.


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