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-   -   Non-Glibertarian Edition (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward) (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?t=6913)

AemJeff 07-26-2011 10:24 PM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rcocean (Post 218637)
Thanks Jeff for ignoring my main point and focusing some imaginary "implied one". The main point is that "Libertarians" are supposed to be in favor of smaller government, yet Ms. Mangu favors "open Borders" even though these "immigrants" could walk into this country and go on government relief. But that's OK with Ms. Mangu 'cause immigration -legal or otherwise - is always good.

And I was mistaken to use the word "illegals" since under "Open Borders" anyone can walk into the country legally. Open borders = no immigration laws.

Finally, your statement that "illegals" can't get welfare strikes me as naive - but I don't care enough to argue the issue.

I think I'd win a hypothetical argument about which point (the one I responded to, or what you're saying here) seems more like the obvious takeaway from what you posted above.

Except indirectly through U.S. born children, it's hard to imagine the mechanism by which immigrants would be eligible for benefits.

rcocean 07-26-2011 10:40 PM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 218638)
I think I'd win a hypothetical argument about which point (the one I responded to, or what you're saying here) seems more like the obvious takeaway from what you posted above.

Except indirectly through U.S. born children, it's hard to imagine the mechanism by which immigrants would be eligible for benefits.

I assume you mean "...it's hard to imagine the mechanism by which *ILLEGAL* immigrants would be eligible for benefits"

Legal immigrants ARE eligible for benefits.

badhatharry 07-26-2011 10:53 PM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rcocean (Post 218639)
Legal immigrants ARE eligible for benefits.

so are illegal immigrants.

AemJeff 07-26-2011 10:59 PM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 218640)
so are illegal immigrants.

We're discussing AFDC and food stamps ("welfare") here. On what basis are you making that claim?

jimM47 07-26-2011 11:14 PM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
You've indicated your disagreement (dismissiveness? contempt?) with Mangu-Ward's conclusion, but you don't indicate why you disagree.

Mangu-Ward is acknowledging that immigration has costs to the United States and U.S. taxpayers, such as benefits granted by the social safety net. But she states that those costs are outweighed by the benefits that the United States economy and the U.S. taxpayer receive. The evidence I've seen suggests she is correct.

So, are you disputing Mangu-Ward's empirical prediction that a more permissive immigration policy would be economically beneficial to the United States? Do you accept her prediction, but nevertheless think it is objectionable that one consequence of it would be that undeserving immigrants could benefits from the social safety net? Do you worry about some other consequence, such as social dislocation, lack of assimilation, or other cultural effects from unbounded immigration?

Your objection is unclear, because Mangu-Ward doesn't actually say in the clip you highlight that immigration under any circumstances and in any amount is always desirable. She posits a cost-benefit analysis in which immigration is a net benefit to the things she (and presumably any good conservative) cares about.

Simon Willard 07-26-2011 11:24 PM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 218628)
Please refrain from using the xenophobic noun "illegals." It is offensive. Also, please refrain from inventing an alternative reality for immigrant-bashing purposes. Undocumented workers are ineligible for "welfare."

Shame on you, Wonderment, for stripping away the humanity of these people by calling them "undocumented". As if you require some piece of paper to be human. Why do you think "undocumented" is inoffensive?

Perhaps you should call them "recently-arrived co-equal citizens-of-the-world".

badhatharry 07-26-2011 11:49 PM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 218642)
We're discussing AFDC and food stamps ("welfare") here. On what basis are you making that claim?

The comment I responded to said 'benefits'. I would call public school education and free emergency room care benefits.

badhatharry 07-26-2011 11:57 PM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jimM47 (Post 218643)
You've indicated your disagreement (dismissiveness? contempt?) with Mangu-Ward's conclusion, but you don't indicate why you disagree.

Mangu-Ward is acknowledging that immigration has costs to the United States and U.S. taxpayers, such as benefits granted by the social safety net. But she states that those costs are outweighed by the benefits that the United States economy and the U.S. taxpayer receive. The evidence I've seen suggests she is correct.

From what I know, libertarians are essentially against the social safety nets in general. So, if you take away the net and let everyone in I suppose unlimited immigration wouldn't be as much of a problem. But when you have a class of people who are in the country illegally it erodes the rule of law and makes everything pretty fuzzy around the edges which is a real problem in my estimation.

sugarkang 07-26-2011 11:57 PM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Willard (Post 218645)
Shame on you, Wonderment, for stripping away the humanity of these people by calling them "undocumented". As if you require some piece of paper to be human. Why do you think "undocumented" is inoffensive?

Perhaps you should call them "recently-arrived co-equal citizens-of-the-world".

Woah. Thinkers aren't appreciated in the comments section. I wish you luck.

Hal Morris 07-26-2011 11:58 PM

Re: "Fringe People" (Geller et al)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apple (Post 218601)
Show me the e-mail that "paint[s] all Muslims as devils" - the usual strawman of leftists like yourself.

It's a bit of hyperbole, which I suppose you've never been exposed to before, and of course you'd never indulge in it yourself.

There are dozens of emails that say things like "A Mass wedding took place in Gaza where 400 adult Palestinians married 400 girls whose average age was 10 or something like that". And another shows a sign in a Muslim shop in Texas saying business closed to celebrate the martyr ____ which the emailer helpfully explains was one of the 9/11 hijackers, but you can look up the name and find the persons was a well celebrated Muslim who died 800 years ago.

There is a hell of a lot of blatant lying going on, especially under cover of anonymity that the internet provides.

I just now answered an alarmed email from my mother about the forwarded email that Obama & Co are just waiting til after November (it was obviously recycled from last year) about the 1% tax on "every bank transaction". I think maybe some really idiotic Democrat suggested such a think which was immediately tabled. Or maybe it is just totally made up. A couple of versions of this email say things like "I didn't believe it so I looked it up on snopes!" Of course if you do look it up on snopes you find it is indeed a hoax.

AemJeff 07-26-2011 11:59 PM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 218648)
The comment I responded to said 'benefits'. I would call public school education and emergency room care benefits.

The conversation was about "welfare." Regardless, emergency room care is a right. We're not barbarians, at least not yet.

sugarkang 07-27-2011 12:01 AM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 218649)
From what I know, libertarians are essentially against the social safety nets in general. So, if you take away the net and let everyone in I suppose unlimited immigration wouldn't be as much of a problem. But when you have a class of people who are in the country illegally it erodes the rule of law and makes everything pretty fuzzy around the edges which is a real problem in my estimation.

I'll speak for myself, but I just want a privatized social safety net. I'd appreciate it if the government could set aside 10% of my income and put into a trust for me that becomes my own social security when I turn 65 or whatever. That means we all automatically save for our own lives, and it ends the ponzi scheme known as social security which completely depends on the arbitrariness of population size and GDP of one generation that affects another.

Twenty somethings have no idea how much grandma and grandpa are fucking them over. This generation has few job opportunities, $100K in college debt that doesn't help them get a job, and paying into a social security that may not pay out for them. I'm not going to get mad about it. At least Matt Yglesias sees that this is a moral issue.

Hal Morris 07-27-2011 12:17 AM

Re: On the 'Reactions to Oslo' Segment:
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 218590)
so common sense was to blame the Teaparty for Jerod Loughner? Not in my book.

A very neatly twisted distortion of what I said. Kudos to you. No common sense is to call out people for the "lock and load" rhetoric, as we might call out someone who routinely calls police "pigs".

[QUOTE=badhatharry;218590]
What does Gifford's condition have to do with it?
(Responsing to "But the right went on a tear finding the earliest slightest suggestion to that effect and shooting it down preemptively, starting before we knew if Giffords was going to live or not."
/QUOTE]

I was illustrating how quickly they got to work, in case you are really are that much in need of a remedial reading comprehension class. Also to me it seemed ghoulish to be focusing on such political tactics at that time.

badhatharry 07-27-2011 12:21 AM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 218652)
The conversation was about "welfare." Regardless, emergency room care is a right. We're not barbarians, at least not yet.

so a right does not entail a benefit, I guess.

badhatharry 07-27-2011 12:25 AM

Re: On the 'Reactions to Oslo' Segment:
 
Quote:

Quoting Hal Morris:A very neatly twisted distortion of what I said. Kudos to you. No common sense is to call out people for the "lock and load" rhetoric, as we might call out someone who routinely calls police "pigs".
Call out people all you wish. But don't expect not to be called out in return. Besides, no one noticed Sarah's gunsights until they were trying to link her to Loughner.
And as for the goulishness...blaming Palin began before Gifford's condition was known also.

badhatharry 07-27-2011 12:29 AM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarkang (Post 218653)
I'll speak for myself, but I just want a privatized social safety net. I'd appreciate it if the government could set aside 10% of my income and put into a trust for me that becomes my own social security when I turn 65 or whatever.

Or maybe a personal savings account that couldn't be raided. The magic of compound interest.

AemJeff 07-27-2011 12:30 AM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 218655)
so a right does not entail a benefit, I guess.

Only in the sense that everyone benefits. When I show up at the ER I really don't want to have to be vetted before I could be treated. If I happened to be in another country, I really hope I wouldn't be required to prove my legal status prior to receiving treatment. What do you do with somebody who's unconscious and doesn't seem to have papers? It's better for everyone if this sort of question just doesn't come up atsuch times.

Wonderment 07-27-2011 12:37 AM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

The comment I responded to said 'benefits'. I would call public school education and free emergency room care benefits.
Emergency room care is not free. It is billed to uninsured patients. Some pay, others don't. It has nothing to do with immigration status.

badhatharry 07-27-2011 12:42 AM

Re: On the 'Reactions to Oslo' Segment:
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hal Morris (Post 218654)
A very neatly twisted distortion of what I said. Kudos to you. No common sense is to call out people for the "lock and load" rhetoric, as we might call out someone who routinely calls police "pigs".

PS. waddaya think of this gunsight?
http://htmlimg3.scribdassets.com/36x...11024fa623.jpg

AemJeff 07-27-2011 12:44 AM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 218657)
Or maybe a personal savings account that couldn't be raided. The magic of compound interest.

At a percent or less APR? That's a dollar or under per hundred bucks per annum. I'm betting Medicare gives better value on the average, by far. Savings won't do you much good if you need cancer treatments, or find yourself with a treatable chronic illness, especially as you get older and the problems start to accumulate.

Simon Willard 07-27-2011 12:45 AM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 218657)
Or maybe a personal savings account that couldn't be raided. The magic of compound interest.

We've always been told that Social Security is a "personal" account. That's the whole point of your Social Security Number! And those yearly individual statements that tabulate how much money each of us put in and what benefits we will receive on retirement. Not to mention the peace of mind that comes from knowing our contributions are safely held in the Social Security Trust Fund, invested in government bonds for safety. The big lie is finally becoming obvious to everyone -- it has been a Ponzi scheme for many years.

I'm not happy about the prospect of being means-tested out of all my contributions. But I do agree that we are screwing over the 20-somethings in an even worse way.

Simon Willard 07-27-2011 12:55 AM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 218652)
The conversation was about "welfare." Regardless, emergency room care is a right. We're not barbarians, at least not yet.

What you haven't mentioned is that the emergency room plays a different role to different people. When I get sick, I go to my doctor with my health insurance card. When an uninsured person gets sick, he goes to the emergency room. If you take preventative care out of the picture, the right of emergency room care starts to look quite a bit like a right to health care.

badhatharry 07-27-2011 12:57 AM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 218658)
Only in the sense that everyone benefits. When I show up at the ER I really don't want to have to be vetted before I could be treated. If I happened to be in another country, I really hope I wouldn't be required to prove my legal status prior to receiving treatment. What do you do with somebody who's unconscious and doesn't seem to have papers? It's better for everyone if this sort of question just doesn't come up atsuch times.

As I'm sure you are aware, lots of folks use the emergency room as a doctor's office. And good luck with the traveling bit.

Quote:

His wife was worried for his life, but relieved that at least she had purchased travel insurance. The Mexican hospital demanded cash payment up front. Knox-Cardi was floored when she called the insurance company -- and was told they would not provide coverage until they checked Cardi's medical history -- even though he'd had no previous heart trouble.

badhatharry 07-27-2011 12:59 AM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 218662)
At a percent or less APR? That's a dollar or under per hundred bucks per annum. I'm betting Medicare gives better value on the average, by far. Savings won't do you much good if you need cancer treatments, or find yourself with a treatable chronic illness, especially as you get older and the problems start to accumulate.

Now it's you who aren't paying attention. We were discussing Social Security.

AemJeff 07-27-2011 01:00 AM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Willard (Post 218664)
What you haven't mentioned is that the emergency room plays a different role to different people. When I get sick, I go to my doctor with my health insurance card. When an uninsured person gets sick, he goes to the emergency room. If you take preventative care out of the picture, the right of emergency room care starts to look quite a bit like a right to health care.

If I had brought it up, I'd have taken the issue even further and asserted that this is an indication of why (I believe) most medical care should be fully subsidized.

AemJeff 07-27-2011 01:02 AM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 218667)
Now it's you who aren't paying attention. We were discussing Social Security.

Same principle, same problem.

sugarkang 07-27-2011 01:02 AM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 218666)
As I'm sure you are aware, lots of folks use the emergency room as a doctor's office. And good luck with the traveling bit.

I wonder how many posts it will be before he calls you a racist.

badhatharry 07-27-2011 01:03 AM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Willard (Post 218663)
The big lie is finally becoming obvious to everyone -- it has been a Ponzi scheme for many years.

I'm not happy about the prospect of being means-tested out of all my contributions. But I do agree that we are screwing over the 20-somethings in an even worse way.

So the scales have fallen from our eyes. Now what the hell are we going to do?

Simon Willard 07-27-2011 01:05 AM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 218668)
If I had brought it up, I'd have taken the issue even further and asserted that this is an indication of why (I believe) most medical care should be fully subsidized.

Fair enough; I just wanted to flesh out where you stand. I'm fearful that the demand for medical care is a bottomless pit that will consume any and all available resources, but I know others disagree.

Simon Willard 07-27-2011 01:09 AM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 218672)
So the scales have fallen from our eyes. Now what the hell are we going to do?

We're going to tell everyone that the politicians have lied. Some people will be shocked, some others won't.

badhatharry 07-27-2011 01:11 AM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 218660)
Emergency room care is not free. It is billed to uninsured patients. Some pay, others don't. It has nothing to do with immigration status.

And people who don't pay will either go on the dole or be hounded by bill collectors for the rest of their days (or seven years, which ever comes first). Those who are in the country illegally are essentially anonymous, so immigration status does matter.

sugarkang 07-27-2011 01:13 AM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Willard (Post 218673)
Fair enough; I just wanted to flesh out where you stand. I'm fearful that the demand for medical care is a bottomless pit that will consume any and all available resources, but I know others disagree.

They'll disagree because they're full of emotions and devoid of math.

badhatharry 07-27-2011 01:13 AM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 218669)
Same principle, same problem.

not really. Medical issues are quite different than a fixed income benefit.

AemJeff 07-27-2011 01:15 AM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 218666)
As I'm sure you are aware, lots of folks use the emergency room as a doctor's office. And good luck with the traveling bit.

That doesn't have any bearing on whether or not the "traveling bit" is generally advantageous. Folks who use the ER eventually get a bill, btw, whether they use it as doctors office (as it were) or not. As Wonderment has already pointed out, same pay their bills, and some don't.

AemJeff 07-27-2011 01:17 AM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 218677)
not really. Medical issues are quite different than a fixed income benefit.

Either way there's no advantage to a nearly static savings account.

badhatharry 07-27-2011 01:20 AM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Willard (Post 218673)
Fair enough; I just wanted to flesh out where you stand. I'm fearful that the demand for medical care is a bottomless pit that will consume any and all available resources, but I know others disagree.

Just repeat after me...health care is a right.

This is a magic sentence that takes care of all the details like who the hell is going to pay for all of this?

but, I digress...health care is a right.

badhatharry 07-27-2011 01:23 AM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 218679)
Either way there's no advantage to a nearly static savings account.

OK how's about a stock portfolio?

badhatharry 07-27-2011 01:26 AM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 218678)
That doesn't have any bearing on whether or not the "traveling bit" is generally advantageous. Folks who use the ER eventually get a bill, btw, whether they use it as doctors office (as it were) or not. As Wonderment has already pointed out, same pay their bills, and some don't.

I was merely pointing out that some countries don't share your view of health care being a right and like to get their money up front.

And if the people who use the emergency room as a doctor's office were going to pay their bills they'd probably go to, you know, a doctor's office.

AemJeff 07-27-2011 01:29 AM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 218683)
I was merely pointing out that some countries don't share your view of health care being a right and like to get their money up front.

Not everybody shares my view on just about anything. But that's how we deal with ER care here, and that's also what I think is right and proper (but insufficient.)

badhatharry 07-27-2011 01:43 AM

Re: Glibertarian Gibberish on Open Borders
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AemJeff (Post 218685)
Not everybody shares my view on just about anything.

there is a god!! :)


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