Bloggingheads Community

Bloggingheads Community (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/index.php)
-   Diavlog comments (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=9)
-   -   The Chess Game (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?t=2075)

ed fielding 09-01-2008 06:23 PM

Re: The Chess Game
 
Really wonderful diavlog. Red meat, still steaming in Glenn’s case; does them both proud.
Things really began to fall into focus around personal/mutual responsibility; and then Glenn passionate, deeply, honorably passionate on the neglect of torture, central as it should be to this election. One can only hope they’re saving that for the last week as the final spike in McPow’s campaign. Then some excellent stuff about good faith abroad.
Then the necessity of respecting the law by trying the criminals.
Fine strong sailing from there.
Prisons and prisoners.
Terroracism.

Loud, prolonged applause.

bkjazfan 09-01-2008 06:40 PM

Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 89249)
Yes, I can imagine that. I wish I had been in this country, and also older, to have had the opportunity to attend any of the big concerts. But, as it is, Voodoo Chile (blues version) is, in my opinion a summary of what drove Jimi to his death. It is his birth, life and death story. The emotional tone in his voice as he sings "my own mother", is probably the most genuine representation of emotional pain through lyrics. Anyhow, an aside from the general topic...

The 60's was my coming of age decade and Jimi Hendrix was a part of that. At the time I was quite intrigued with the music of Bob Dylan.

John

bkjazfan 09-01-2008 06:50 PM

Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 89258)
It's hard to predict how the scandal will play out. I can see pros and cons of the story for the Palin candidacy. One thing's for sure: she is now the VP candidate with the pregnant teen daughter. For better or for worse, it's an indelible part of her image now.

I'm much more interested in the "one heartbeat away" aspect of the candidacy.

I think the Dems. would be very smart to really pump up the volume on that one.

What if the Great War Hero, POW and wise old diplomat should die? Who will really run the country then? Obama, Biden and McCain bring established networks of leadership and collective wisdom? What does Palin bring? Will she be susceptible to the influence of nefarious extremists who can bamboozle her? Dick Cheney rising from the political grave? John Bolton? Some nutcase Dr. Strangelove in the Pentagon? An Armageddon-deranged preacher?

This line of attack runs the risk of being sexist, but the Dems. should be able to spin it as gender-neutral and simply based on the inexperience factor.

Palin is not really comparable to Obama on experience, as the Repubs have been arguing the last few days. Obama is firmly rooted in core Democratic traditions and surrounded by well-known advisors, wonks and veteran players. Harvard and Chicago are as establishment as you can get. Palin, on the other hand was the mayor of Wasilia and a student at North Idaho College.

Whew! Harvard and Chicago! Elitest? Pretty close. Do we really need more of that?

John

Wonderment 09-01-2008 06:53 PM

Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.
 
Quote:

Has Mrs. Palin ever lived in a more or less metropolitan area? I mean Alaska and North Idaho are not representative of the rest of the U.S. Has she been exposed to America?
Never mind America. She hasn't seen anything of the rest of the world either.

NY Times:

Quote:

Ms. Palin appears to have traveled very little outside the United States. In July 2007, she had to get a passport before she visited members of the Alaska National Guard stationed in Kuwait, according to her deputy communications director, Sharon Leighow.

Unit 09-01-2008 06:58 PM

Re: The Chess Game
 
Glenn declare himself a social creationist and accuses the Republicans to be laissez-faire types. That's a distortion of reality. Social engineers can be found on both sides of the aisle, unfortunately.

Wonderment 09-01-2008 07:01 PM

Something else the Dems. missed besides torture in Denver
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PjHQfoGctU

Ocean 09-01-2008 07:07 PM

Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkjazfan (Post 89267)
The 60's was my coming of age decade and Jimi Hendrix was a part of that. At the time I was quite intrigued with the music of Bob Dylan.

John

Why?

Was it about the themes of his songs? His style?

Wonderment 09-01-2008 07:14 PM

An interesting article on Teenpregnancygate and Palin issues
 
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/o...rah_polin.html

bkjazfan 09-01-2008 07:14 PM

Re: Something else the Dems. missed besides torture in Denver
 
I write to people in prison and have done so for some time. I am curious to what Senator Obama is suppose to say about the high incarceration rate of black males? Any perusing of inmate websites will show that many inmates are there due to violant offenses including murder. Sometimes, I get the impression that people think the prisons are overflowing due to drug arrests. Sure, that's a part of it and I don't have the stats to show big a part it is. However, the inmates I correspond with all have life sentences for serious offenses.

John

Ocean 09-01-2008 07:14 PM

Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 89269)
Never mind America. She hasn't seen anything of the rest of the world either.

NY Times:

Great for a Commanderess-in-Chief!
Boy, we either make sure Obama wins or we make McCain immortal! Not that he would be the kind of President we need, but at least he may have a sense about where he is standing... What am I saying? The whole republican ticket is hopeless!

Wonderment, get on the phone right now and rally as many people as possible to vote Democrat. Each of them has to convince ten others, and so on...
The alternative is... doom!

Ocean 09-01-2008 07:31 PM

Re: An interesting article on Teenpregnancygate and Palin issues
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 89273)

Wonderment,

Do you hate me?

Why are you making me read this?

I have to go back to work tomorrow and I have a dental appointment. Isn't that enough suffering?

What do you expect my reaction to be when I read this?

"A wife is to submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ. She, being in the image of God as is her husband and thus equal to him, has the God-given responsibility to respect her husband and to serve as his helper in managing the household and nurturing the next generation."

The most insulting and retrogressing parts are in bold, for posterity to know, what shall be no more!

I said. :)

glh17 09-01-2008 07:59 PM

Re: The Chess Game
 
Palin excites the religious right, solidifies the Limbaugh/Hannity/Coulter crowd, and assures a McCain victory in the South. She believes global warming is a hoax, thinks creationism should be taught as science, looks good, takes out her on meat, and is life-time NRA. Perfect candidate.

SkepticDoc 09-01-2008 07:59 PM

Re: The Chess Game
 
I felt the true pain from Prof. Loury when he talked about the moral inertia regarding lynching.

harkin 09-01-2008 08:02 PM

Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 89265)
Has Mrs. Palin ever lived in a more or less metropolitan area? I mean Alaska and North Idaho are not representative of the rest of the U.S.


Take it from someone who was born and raised in Los Angeles, visited Idaho when he was 22, moved there as part of a telecommunications project at 27, bought a farm there at 35 and spends about half his time there, Idaho is just like most of 'the rest of the US'. To consider it any different is to show an outloook not much more advanced than those who consider everything between San Francisco and New York as flyover country.

The people get up every day and go to work, they are by and large very friendly. The children go to school and participate in sports. There are good, bad and everything in-between, much like 'the rest of the U.S.'

BeachFrontView 09-01-2008 08:02 PM

Re: The Chess Game
 
one of the main things i think is getting overlooked about Palin is that she has never actually campaigned and got actual votes. One of Hillary's main arguements and why a lot of women liked her vs Obama was that Hillary was more experienced than Obama. She had been there and done that. And 18 million people actually walked into a booth and pulled the lever. I don't think if Sarah Palin ran a national campaign for the presidency she would have gotten more votes than Romney. Maybe I'm wrong. Here is an interesting question to speculate on.


If Sarah Palin entered the Republican primary from the beginning, how would she have done? compared to McCain Romney Huckabee etc . . . .

jeffpeterson 09-01-2008 08:16 PM

Re: The Chess Game
 
The choice of Joe Biden is honorable and reassuring because he's a plausible president? Come on! As the voters in the Democratic primaries rightly saw, he'd be a disaster, unless you find reassuring the notions of sending Iran $200 million without strings after 9/11, or partitioning Iraq, or acquiescence in a nuclear Iran. The truth about this year's veep picks is that both candidates sought to shore up vulnerabilities in their candidacies, Obama addressing an experience/stature deficit (especially in foreign policy), McCain addressing an energy/enthusiasm deficit.

Ocean 09-01-2008 08:20 PM

Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by harkin (Post 89280)
Take it from someone who was born and raised in Los Angeles, visited Idaho when he was 22, moved there as part of a telecommunications project at 27, bought a farm there at 35 and spends about half his time there, Idaho is just like most of 'the rest of the US'. To consider it any different is to show an outloook not much more advanced than those who consider everything between San Francisco and New York as flyover country.

The people get up every day and go to work, they are by and large very friendly. The children go to school and participate in sports. There are good, bad and everything in-between, much like 'the rest of the U.S.'

There are many aspects to look at when we discuss whether a certain region is representative or not of the whole. You mention some aspects that are shared, not only with the U.S., but I would say, with the rest of the world. Would you say that people in Idaho are representative of the rest of the world, in most aspects?

I think you are perfectly aware of regional differences. Your comment is either driven by your loyalty to the people you share half of your time with, or by other reasons that escape my understanding.

As I said before, Idaho is a beautiful state, and I have no reason to believe there's anything wrong with the people living there. I just think it would be hard to believe that the "culture" in Idaho is the same as, say, the culture in New York City. I lived in Seattle for two years, after living in New York for fifteen. When I returned to the East Coast, I had to re-acculturate. I had forgotten how rude people are here, and yet, how very interesting...

graz 09-01-2008 08:22 PM

Re: The Chess Game
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SkepticDoc (Post 89279)
I felt the true pain from Prof. Loury when he talked about the moral inertia regarding lynching.

I too, finally got a visceral sense of the cost to Glenn of the ascendancy of an Obama agenda that doesn't redress the shortcomings of the civil rights movement or fully acknowledge the prison crisis. I think I better understand his half-hearted support of his party's candidate.
I hope that his concerns will be met. But I believe that Josh underscored the overarching priority of getting elected first.
And that is where I have to yield to the judgment of the candidate thus far. I don't expect that the depth of the approach required to get all Americans to internalize the normalcy of Chicago's south-side neighborhoods, or to recapitulate lynchings or church bombings is ever gonna be wrapped up in a Presidential campaign.
But still... The time is now.
Enough.

artoad 09-01-2008 08:28 PM

Re: The Chess Game
 
Here's a paradoxical thought for you all. If McCain/Palin should win, heaven forfend, maybe his demise would be opportune because I think his choice of Palin makes him seem the most dangerous, reckless gambler who would be the most unqualified of the four of them by virtue of that screw-loose temperament we are all so familiar with. Remember when Bobby Jindal was suggested and then dismissed as too green. He was at least plausible compared to the Palin wild card. Notice how the gambling metaphor keeps coming up. If McCain didn't have the political game Cindy bought him, the only people concerned with him would be Vegas casino hosts charged with taking care of the demented, degenerate gambler crowd.

Ocean 09-01-2008 08:29 PM

Re: The Chess Game
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffpeterson (Post 89282)
The choice of Joe Biden is honorable and reassuring because he's a plausible president? Come on! As the voters in the Democratic primaries rightly saw, he'd be a disaster, unless you find reassuring the notions of sending Iran $200 million without strings after 9/11, or partitioning Iraq, or acquiescence in a nuclear Iran. The truth about this year's veep picks is that both candidates sought to shore up vulnerabilities in their candidacies, Obama addressing an experience/stature deficit (especially in foreign policy), McCain addressing an energy/enthusiasm deficit.

If one of the VP candidates had to go to an international summit to negotiate an issue that has major implications for our country, who would you rather have representing you? Which one of them is more likely to have the skills and knowledge to be an effective negotiator? Honestly, step out of partisan lines and tell me.

Ocean 09-01-2008 08:42 PM

Re: The Chess Game
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KingFish (Post 89229)
By the end I was wishing for another half dozen Sarah Palins. It's depressing not to see any genuine dialog between left and right in this discussion, especially from Joshua; it's clear that only liberal positions are rational ones, and every possible argument against them is either stigmatized or marginalized. So don't have a bloggingheads, just make up some Powerpoint slides and we'll click through those. I am not conservative by inclination and really want to see a more fully rounded liberalism; Obama is a whole jump or two ahead in this regard then either of these two. I'll leave now to go and do some moose hunting...

We, the liberals, in all our rationality, call the above conservative whining.

Instead of complaining, wouldn't it make more sense to expose your arguments?

If you want to engage others in dialog, you will have to state your opinion. If you don't, the rest of us will continue to say what we think. Don't complain about that.

graz 09-01-2008 08:49 PM

Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by harkin (Post 89280)
Take it from someone who was born and raised in Los Angeles, visited Idaho when he was 22, moved there as part of a telecommunications project at 27, bought a farm there at 35 and spends about half his time there, Idaho is just like most of 'the rest of the US'. To consider it any different is to show an outloook not much more advanced than those who consider everything between San Francisco and New York as flyover country.

The people get up every day and go to work, they are by and large very friendly. The children go to school and participate in sports. There are good, bad and everything in-between, much like 'the rest of the U.S.'

Fwiw: I always conveniently compartmentalized you as an opponent. Which was probably as a result of your rabid defense of Mickey and Ann, coupled with your reflexive lefty bashing. Lately, your personalized posts have fleshed out a whole person that I think I understand better. Your comments about tats and where and how you live make you more sympathetic to me.
Not that you should care.
Anyhow, with all due respect to Idahoans, Alaskans and other locales that exemplify the limited range of experience that Sarah Palin has lived (according to the known record). People are people, sure. But at a minimum, the job requirements include an indication of an ability to adapt to an ever increasing set of complex issues. While she might be able to improvise, it seems fair to say that her skills have not been put to a great test. I think that provincialism is a fair criticism that should be addressed.

I think that there is litmus or means test for minimum qualification. Not the simple constitutional requirements. To those that argue that Obama is of equal measure, while I disagree, I argue that the primary proccess was the additional burden that he had to pass. The electorate has spoken.
Sarah Palin won't have such a test. Her shortcut to the top disallows any true test. We are clearly living in interesting times.

Ocean 09-01-2008 09:19 PM

Re: The Chess Game
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by graz (Post 89284)
I hope that his concerns will be met. But I believe that Josh underscored the overarching priority of getting elected first.

This is exactly the point. As much as we may want to see those issues discussed more openly, I think Obama has to be careful not to come across as someone with one agenda. Unfortunately, we need everybody's votes, even those that are not sympathetic to civil rights or to the tragic situation in prisons. Perhaps it would make sense for someone else to pick up that task.

bkjazfan 09-01-2008 09:21 PM

Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 89272)
Why?

Was it about the themes of his songs? His style?

I liked everything about his songs: the lyrics (words), the folksy rhythm, and his voice then (not now). Currently, I have one of his LP's ("Highway 61 Revisited"), cassette ("Bringing It all Back Home"), and CD ("The Best Of Bob Dylan"). Dylan music captured the mood of the 60's.

John

Ocean 09-01-2008 09:23 PM

Re: The Chess Game
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by artoad (Post 89285)
If McCain didn't have the political game Cindy bought him, the only people concerned with him would be Vegas casino hosts charged with taking care of the demented, degenerate gambler crowd.

LOL!

But, had Palin not been promoted, for obscure reasons, to these high level politics, where would she be?

Ocean 09-01-2008 09:31 PM

Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkjazfan (Post 89290)
I liked everything about his songs: the lyrics (words), the folksy rhythm, and his voice then (not now). Currently, I have one of his LP's ("Highway 61 Revisited"), cassette ("Bringing It all Back Home"), and CD ("The Best Of Bob Dylan"). Dylan music captured the mood of the 60's.

John

That's right! I'm not an expert, but I would add that he certainly inspired many.

With Jimi revolutionizing the use of the electric guitar, and Dylan infusing meaning and style, the rest was the logical derivative. Good old times!

Being the youngest, and only girl, in an extended family with an older brother and three older cousins, I was exposed to this music from early on. That explains it, doesn't it?

Wonderment 09-01-2008 09:34 PM

Re: An interesting article on Teenpregnancygate and Palin issues
 
Quote:

I said.
Took me a minute to go through the revolving linguistic door to translate "he dicho" there. I can only remind you that between the said and the done there is a lot of trecho.

Ottorino 09-01-2008 09:41 PM

Inequality
 
Why again is economic inequality bad, per se? How many times does the non-zero-sum, all-boats-can-rise argument have to be made before liberals hear it?

Rising Absolute Standard of Living for All.

That's what Glenn Loury, Joshua Cohen, and all reasonable people ACTUALLY care about, despite ideological commitments that make some of us say things that contradict that.

If I'm poor, I'm happy to live in a world where the rich are getting richer faster than the poor are getting richer.

Ocean 09-01-2008 09:43 PM

Re: An interesting article on Teenpregnancygate and Palin issues
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 89293)
Took me a minute to go through the revolving linguistic door to translate "he dicho" there. I can only remind you that between the said and the done there is a lot of trecho.

Hey, hilarious again!

So, how would you say, "he dicho" in English?

In terms of the "trecho", it's time to shorten it. Don't you notice my determination?

brucds 09-01-2008 09:54 PM

Re: The Chess Game
 
Ocean: "Honestly, step out of partisan lines and tell me."

I don't think they're up to that, frankly.

SkepticDoc 09-01-2008 09:58 PM

Re: An interesting article on Teenpregnancygate and Palin issues
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 89295)
Hey, hilarious again!

So, how would you say, "he dicho" in English?

In terms of the "trecho", it's time to shorten it. Don't you notice my determination?

"I have said"

The translation of the phrase is roughly: there is a big distance (trecho) between what is said and what is done.

Spanish is onomatopoeic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onomatopoeia

and many phrases are rhythmically melodic, the complete expression loses a little with translation, I am sure the same can be said of other languages, I just grew up with both English (2ry) and Spanish (1ry).

wovenstrap 09-01-2008 09:59 PM

Re: The Chess Game
 
Oh, Glenn, you are brilliant but you still chide the Dems for rejecting the "experience" of a woman whose primary job for nearly twenty years was "political wife" and who repeatedly tried to pass off being First Lady as a job with serious organizational, political/policy duties. Which it does not possess. It might be churlish to point out that the Democratic voters opted for the candidate who had been running on his own record for an extra four years, but it's the case. The flaw of Hillary's candidacy was staking everything on some imagined quantity of "experience" that was at best 50% as large as Hillary wanted to claim.

For a man who speaks so much of the importance of the public process of evaluating and endorsing policy positions in the clear light of day, it sometimes seems odd that you are so enamored of a woman who as of October 25, 2000, had seen voters evaluate her record in a voting booth a grand total of *zero* times (Obama twice, by that time). Experience? You dare waggle Hillary's experience in front of Barack Obama? Come on.

Bill Clinton lost an election once, before becoming president. Barack Obama lost an election once, before winning this nomination. They learned from that. Hillary's main electoral achievement in life before 2008 was beating Rick Lazio in the Senate race of 2000. The tragedy of Hillary is that she needed the test of the 2008 primaries to become the great politician she had become by June 2008 (but was not in January 2008).

Changing the subject, perhaps Obama is beginning to make the connections between policy and outcomes, that you spent 10 minutes wishing had been more mentioned in Denver.

Ocean 09-01-2008 10:00 PM

Re: The Chess Game
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by brucds (Post 89296)
Ocean: "Honestly, step out of partisan lines and tell me."

I don't think they're up to that, frankly.

Why not? I'm always hopeful... Not that I would bet on it... but optimism keeps me smiling. :)

elementaryteacher 09-01-2008 10:01 PM

Re: The Chess Game
 
Josh's argument in the poison pawn section is basically, Palin is unqualified and this is a troubling statement about his judgment, while Glenn's says that if Obama uses that argument, he will lose because he himself is unqualified (or perceived to be). The merits of Glenn's argument aside (and I have issues with the merits), Obama does not need that particular argument to thump McCain, it is however a critical argument for McCain to make against Obama to win, and in picking Palin he has removed it from the table. This was his CORE argument against Obama's presidential aspirations, and it is gone. This is NOT the core argument in the Democrat's arsenal.

It's like McCain is doubling-down when he is behind in a Black Jack game, and he has a short-term memory problem, so he can't count the cards. He used the wrong poison pawn for this particular play.

Ocean 09-01-2008 10:03 PM

Re: An interesting article on Teenpregnancygate and Palin issues
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SkepticDoc (Post 89297)
"I have said"

The translation of the phrase is roughly: there is a big distance (trecho) between what is said and what is done.

Spanish is onomatopoeic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onomatopoeia

and many phrases are rhythmically melodic, the complete expression loses a little with translation, I am sure the same can be said of other languages, I just grew up with both English (2ry) and Spanish (1ry).

Good to know! Where are your parents from?

I realize that the literal translation of "he dicho" is "I have said". It just doesn't sound right. Oh, we'll come up with something...

SkepticDoc 09-01-2008 10:08 PM

Re: An interesting article on Teenpregnancygate and Palin issues
 
I was born and raised in Puerto Rico.

I suffer from "Spanglish"!

Wonderment 09-01-2008 10:13 PM

Re: An interesting article on Teenpregnancygate and Palin issues
 
Quote:

So, how would you say, "he dicho" in English?
"I have spoken." But it doesn't pack nearly the same idiomatic punch as "he dicho" in Spanish. It's a tough one to translate well.

Bobby G 09-01-2008 10:21 PM

Re: Guys, Please watch C-Span from now on
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bloggin' Noggin (Post 89239)
I think the better objection is that the McCain campaign was certainly short-sighted. Do we want another president who shoots from the hip?

I've been reading this objection ad nauseum on Sullivan's blog: if McCain would make the Palin decision so rashly, he's just as reckless as Bush.

Here are my problems with this reading:
(1) McCain has been in the senate since 1982, I think. Does he have a track record of making similarly rash decisions since then? If so, that's a more important indicator than the Palin pick; if not, then the Palin selection doesn't bother me.
(2) McCain's decision was reckless, in that it was quickly done. Bush is reckless, but it's not clear to me that his recklessness is quick rather than deliberate. (I.e., Bush might have thought a long time before he made each of his rash decisions.)
(3) McCain's quick, reckless decision need not be seen as the result of a character trait. It could instead be the result of realizing that his old strategy (I have experience, Obama doesn't) had run out of steam, so he wanted to shake things up; and he figures his chances of winning aren't great, so why not make a hail Mary pass; and in any event he may actually believe that an Obama presidency would be worse than a McCain presidency, and so it's more important to get elected rather than have the best vice president possible.

Ocean 09-01-2008 10:29 PM

Re: An interesting article on Teenpregnancygate and Palin issues
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SkepticDoc (Post 89302)
I was born and raised in Puerto Rico.

I suffer from "Spanglish"!

We all get like that after a while. It takes quite some effort to keep each language intact. Blending seems natural. That's how most languages developed anyhow.

Wonderment 09-01-2008 10:31 PM

Re: Guys, Please watch C-Span from now on
 
Quote:

,... so he wanted to shake things up; and he figures his chances of winning aren't great, so why not make a hail Mary pass....
Uh, because it's irresponsible and betrays a total disregard for the welfare of the country?


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:11 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.