Bloggingheads Community

Bloggingheads Community (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/index.php)
-   Diavlog comments (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=9)
-   -   The Chess Game (http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?t=2075)

Bloggingheads 09-01-2008 12:46 PM

The Chess Game
 

Anyuser 09-01-2008 01:48 PM

Re: The Chess Game
 
Is it possible to believe that McCain knew Bristol was pregnant when he picked her mom for VP?

claymisher 09-01-2008 02:18 PM

Re: The Chess Game
 
Maybe McCain's the father!

No, I'm kidding. I wish I could embed soap opera music.

InJapan 09-01-2008 02:20 PM

Re: The Chess Game
 
Quote:

Is it possible to believe that McCain knew Bristol was pregnant when he picked her mom for VP?
Of course it is; why not? Life happens, and sexual exploration is part of the life of a teenager. McCain was not born yesterday (in fact, he was born 365x72 + 18 + 4 "yesterdays" ago...). Likely McCain views this whole issue as something that will pass, as it would be downright stupid of Obama's campaign to somehow hammer on this, or even allow their unpaid minions to hammer away on it.

johnshaplin 09-01-2008 02:26 PM

Re: The Chess Game
 
One good thing about Sarah is that "She's No Dick Cheney" and must certainly know how to spell potatoes.

If Obama wins we'll have to pray hard that nothing happens to him because Biden is a nasty piece of work whose been "got out of the way (VP instead of chairman of the foreign relations committee). If McCain wins then drops dead, Palin could be the sort of "accident" than really challenges the status quo.

So both players are offering "poisoned pawns". Brechtian play FOR SURE!

KingFish 09-01-2008 02:30 PM

Re: The Chess Game
 
By the end I was wishing for another half dozen Sarah Palins. It's depressing not to see any genuine dialog between left and right in this discussion, especially from Joshua; it's clear that only liberal positions are rational ones, and every possible argument against them is either stigmatized or marginalized. So don't have a bloggingheads, just make up some Powerpoint slides and we'll click through those. I am not conservative by inclination and really want to see a more fully rounded liberalism; Obama is a whole jump or two ahead in this regard then either of these two. I'll leave now to go and do some moose hunting...

Ocean 09-01-2008 02:36 PM

Re: The Chess Game
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by johnshaplin (Post 89228)
One good thing about Sarah is that "She's No Dick Cheney" and must certainly know how to spell potatoes.

If Obama wins we'll have to pray hard that nothing happens to him because Biden is a nasty piece of work whose been "got out of the way (VP instead of chairman of the foreign relations committee). If McCain wins then drops dead, Palin could be the sort of "accident" than really challenges the status quo.

So both players are offering "poisoned pawns". Brechtian play FOR SURE!

How would Palin challenge the status quo?
Do you see her as a strong leader?

What about having a clear vision about this country in relationship to the rest of the international community?

Eastwest 09-01-2008 02:57 PM

Palin Family ALL Pro-Drilling!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anyuser (Post 89224)
Is it possible to believe that McCain knew Bristol was pregnant when he picked her mom for VP?

Dunno, but this just goes to show her daughter's pro-drilling, too!

EW

eskinol 09-01-2008 03:00 PM

I scream for McWhorter!!!!
 
Cohen is nice and all, but the best bh pairing shouldn't be broken

Eastwest 09-01-2008 03:02 PM

Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.
 
I think maybe they can rebrand this:

The only way to counter the swelling of the huge population of anti-American Muslim hordes is for every Christian girl to immediately become pregnant and safeguard the American way.

EW

Ocean 09-01-2008 03:06 PM

Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastwest (Post 89233)
I think maybe they can rebrand this:

The only way to counter the swelling of the huge population of anti-American Muslim hordes is for every Christian girl to immediately become pregnant and safeguard the American way.

EW

Eastwest,

Considering the bursts of silliness that I'm capable of, I'm not the most likely critic for this kind of comment, but it does prompt me to ask:
Are you bored today? :)

Anyuser 09-01-2008 03:10 PM

Bristol
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by InJapan (Post 89227)
Of course it is; why not? Life happens, and sexual exploration is part of the life of a teenager. . . Likely McCain views this whole issue as something that will pass . . . .

I wonder. I expect this new event will complicate, if not reduce, Palin's unmistakable appeal. There's a fine line between being an outdoorsy, blue collar family and being a clan of dumb hilljacks. Why would McCain knowingly choose to put up with this complication?

I also wonder if McCain would prefer to conclude that Palin's antiabortion position is obvious with the Christian right, and now let's talk about something else. Now that will be harder. The two main, completely moral purposes of abortion are to avoid having a kid with birth defects and to terminate unintended, dumb-ass teen pregnancies. They're choosing to cope with both of those avoidable catastrophes in that family. They're a walking, talking advertisement for abortion.

Picture the young fool who knocked Bristol up. "Hey Bristol, we've got, you know options." Not only does Bristol (her parents?) nip that one in the bud; not only does he find himself getting married when, if he had a brain in his dumb teenage head, he wouldn't want to; all this is occurring under a glaring spotlight on a national stage, and he just might be getting hitched to the daughter of the future VP. It's like an Eddie Murphy movie.

Finally, re Sarah, while my policy positions differ from hers, everything I've seen and read and heard about her is that she's likable and plain-spoken and authentic as all get out. However, her statement that she's proud of her daughter for getting knocked up is rank political bullshit. She reminds me of what Elizabeth Edwards said about John when he (partially) 'fessed up to screwing around on her.

DoctorMoney 09-01-2008 03:21 PM

Re: The Chess Game
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by InJapan (Post 89227)
Of course it is; why not? Life happens, and sexual exploration is part of the life of a teenager. McCain was not born yesterday (in fact, he was born 365x72 + 18 + 4 "yesterdays" ago...). Likely McCain views this whole issue as something that will pass, as it would be downright stupid of Obama's campaign to somehow hammer on this, or even allow their unpaid minions to hammer away on it.

If the McCain camp knew about this, why wouldn't they have circulated this obviously relevant and interesting fact to the press on Friday?

That just doesn't make sense to me. If the campaign thinks it's no big deal, then they'd put it out there to avoid giving the impression that the pregnancy was a secret. And if your campaign thinks it's going to be a difficult PR issue (at which point I'd say: why bother picking her?) then aren't you going to want to get your side of the story out early before the rumor machines get started in earnest?

I'm skeptical! It seems very likely that the McCain camp got caught off guard here, even though they're now claiming that they knew all the details last week. No sane politician is going to expect that this tidbit would remain undiscovered or unremarked upon. So why let your own convention be dominated with this kind of silliness? It just doesn't make any sense to me.

Xelgaex 09-01-2008 03:22 PM

Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastwest (Post 89233)
I think maybe they can rebrand this:

The only way to counter the swelling of the huge population of anti-American Muslim hordes is for every Christian girl to immediately become pregnant and safeguard the American way.

EW

You joke, but isn't that one of the main ideas in America Alone?

Lyle 09-01-2008 03:29 PM

Re: The Chess Game
 
Glenn Loury is brilliant.

Bloggin' Noggin 09-01-2008 03:32 PM

Guys, Please watch C-Span from now on
 
Obviously, Josh and Glenn were silly enough to watch the the blathering heads of CNN, rather than CSPAN -- they totally missed out on Kerry's speech and specifically his very emphatic rejection of torture.

On Palin, I think Glenn is giving way too much credit to McCain. They were all caught up in winning the next move (winning the news cycle). They won that, but it doesn't seem to be playing all that well in the long-term. Josh objects to McCain for not being high-minded enough and Glenn rejects that objection on the ground that Obama may not be any more high-minded. I think the better objection is that the McCain campaign was certainly short-sighted. Do we want another president who shoots from the hip?

Golly, I am REALLY REALLY glad that Obama writes his speeches and not Glenn or Josh!!! What a disaster they would be if they had been allowed to "improve" his speech in the ways they suggest!

jcohen57 09-01-2008 03:33 PM

Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Xelgaex (Post 89237)
You joke, but isn't that one of the main ideas in America Alone?

OK, I had my say...and then some... in the conversation with Glenn...but let me just put in a word for talking about something other than the sex life and pregnancy of a 17 year old. (This comment is directed to no one in particular.) It is really unfair to her.

Ocean 09-01-2008 03:39 PM

Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jcohen57 (Post 89240)
OK, I had my say...and then some... in the conversation with Glenn...but let me just put in a word for talking about something other than the sex life and pregnancy of a 17 year old. (This comment is directed to no one in particular.) It is really unfair to her.

I think that her mother is the one who bears the responsibility of protecting her daughter from "unfair criticism". Once the governor accepted the nomination, she is accepting the "package:, with the good and the bad, including whatever criticism arises. Don't tell me she didn't know this could happen!

As an aside, so much for this family's ability to provide adequate sex education to their children. Her daughter may have been better off with a box of condoms instead of the Bible...

Eastwest 09-01-2008 03:42 PM

Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 89234)
Eastwest,

Considering the bursts of silliness that I'm capable of, I'm not the most likely critic for this kind of comment, but it does prompt me to ask:
Are you bored today? :)

Not at all. I was just overcome with an irrepressible wave of nostalgia and patriotic feeling: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_nO0F4ugss

Cheers,
EW

Eastwest 09-01-2008 03:49 PM

Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Xelgaex (Post 89237)
You joke, but isn't that one of the main ideas in America Alone?

Actually, I'm not joking. McCain can only win through some version of the "tribalism" theme (notice how I carefully avoided the other "-eme" word?) through which any who would follow Obama are identified and demonized (at least subconsciously) as "other" and as "unamerican." So tweaking these subconscious xenophobic resonances are part of how to pull this off.

This also gives the Republicans another shot at keeping open to their already commenced stratagem as branding Obama and Dems as those so heartless, they'd refuse to save a baby somehow surviving a late-term abortion.

So, yeah, I think the "poison pawn" bit is at work here, this even though I do think McCain is so pre-alzheimeristic that he stumbled into choosing on the basis of which babe would make his best "gal Friday," not realizing half the nation would be laughing and holding heads in hands contemplating the prospect of this six-shooter hockey-mom being thrust into the presidency when he gets a fatal aneurysm.

EW

Ocean 09-01-2008 03:50 PM

Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastwest (Post 89243)
Not at all. I was just overcome with an irrepressible wave of nostalgia and patriotic feeling: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_nO0F4ugss

Cheers,
EW

Nice. But this is my all time (Jimi's) favorite.

bkjazfan 09-01-2008 03:52 PM

Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.
 
Stop! Right out of the box Josh is critical of Governor Palin for lack of experience. I never remember him saying that about Senator Obama whose legislative accomplishments have to be thin since I am not aware of any. Also, on perusing this venue if he has them I haven't seen them mentioned to any great degree.

Actually, I like watching these two since they are in my age bracket, been around the block more than a few times, and are seemingly on top of it.

Now, I'll go back to watching the rest of the diavlog.

John

Eastwest 09-01-2008 04:08 PM

Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 89245)
Nice. But this is my all time (Jimi's) favorite.

Hard to argue with that, but I still seem to have "Purple Haze" indelibly embedded in my DNA as a result of melting away to its strains in the heat of 500 mics - Seattle, '67.

EW

jcohen57 09-01-2008 04:20 PM

Re: Guys, Please watch C-Span from now on
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bloggin' Noggin (Post 89239)
Obviously, Josh and Glenn were silly enough to watch the the blathering heads of CNN, rather than CSPAN -- they totally missed out on Kerry's speech and specifically his very emphatic rejection of torture.

On Palin, I think Glenn is giving way too much credit to McCain. They were all caught up in winning the next move (winning the news cycle). They won that, but it doesn't seem to be playing all that well in the long-term. Josh objects to McCain for not being high-minded enough and Glenn rejects that objection on the ground that Obama may not be any more high-minded. I think the better objection is that the McCain campaign was certainly short-sighted. Do we want another president who shoots from the hip?

Golly, I am REALLY REALLY glad that Obama writes his speeches and not Glenn or Josh!!! What a disaster they would be if they had been allowed to "improve" his speech in the ways they suggest!

hey listen, I share your gladness. obama is a great speaker, but even he could not make silk from the sows ears I would write.

on Kerry, I was not listening to the numbnuts commentary. I just could not bring myself to listen to Kerry, even after I heard he was really good. Still, point taken: a bad oversight.

Ocean 09-01-2008 04:20 PM

Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastwest (Post 89247)
Hard to argue with that, but I still seem to have "Purple Haze" indelibly embedded in my DNA as a result of melting away to its strains in the heat of 500 mics - Seattle, '67.

EW

Yes, I can imagine that. I wish I had been in this country, and also older, to have had the opportunity to attend any of the big concerts. But, as it is, Voodoo Chile (blues version) is, in my opinion a summary of what drove Jimi to his death. It is his birth, life and death story. The emotional tone in his voice as he sings "my own mother", is probably the most genuine representation of emotional pain through lyrics. Anyhow, an aside from the general topic...

jcohen57 09-01-2008 04:25 PM

Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 89241)
I think that her mother is the one who bears the responsibility of protecting her daughter from "unfair criticism". Once the governor accepted the nomination, she is accepting the "package:, with the good and the bad, including whatever criticism arises. Don't tell me she didn't know this could happen!

As an aside, so much for this family's ability to provide adequate sex education to their children. Her daughter may have been better off with a box of condoms instead of the Bible...

From NYT: Mr. Obama said the pregnancy “has no relevance to Governor Palin’s performance as a governor or her potential performance as a vice president.” He added that, “my mother had me when she was 18. How family deals with issues and teen-age children – that shouldn’t be the topic of our politics.”

“So,” he added, “I would strongly urge people to back off these kinds of stories.”

Says it all.

Ray 09-01-2008 04:52 PM

Re: The Chess Game
 
Quote:

“So,” he added, “I would strongly urge people to back off these kinds of stories.”
Says it all.

Governor Palin, what's your stance on premarital sex, and how does your view inform your policy decisions regarding sex education?


And now for a taste of snark: of course she supports gun rights! Look at all the shotgun weddings she's had to attend!

Naturally, Jay Leno won't touch this until it's confirmed that Palin's first son was also conceived out of wedlock.

Ocean 09-01-2008 05:01 PM

Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jcohen57 (Post 89250)
From NYT: Mr. Obama said the pregnancy “has no relevance to Governor Palin’s performance as a governor or her potential performance as a vice president.” He added that, “my mother had me when she was 18. How family deals with issues and teen-age children – that shouldn’t be the topic of our politics.”

“So,” he added, “I would strongly urge people to back off these kinds of stories.”

Says it all.

Not really. Obama said what a presidential candidate should say. I respect him and I admire him for that.

I personally don't have very strong feelings one way or the other regarding a politician's personal life, and even less so, about a family member's life. But this has been the game in politics, particularly in the last couple of decades. My point is, that if we are going to play this game, it's only fair that the same rules apply to everybody involved. No exceptions for Mrs. Palin or her daughter.

BornAgainDemocrat 09-01-2008 05:02 PM

Re: The Chess Game
 
This is my first time to comment, and I am not sure how to go about it. I wanted to make a point, seldom made, concerning the creationism vs. science controversy mentioned in the Glen Loury-Josh Cohen exchange. Do I have to enter it under Re:The Chess Game?

Very well, for it is about the chess game of politics and society, since the kind of stuff I am about to get into is dear to the hearts of most human beings, even the uneducated, but the educated too. Elections can turn on it.

But before I begin let me make clear that I am not only NOT a Creationist, but very much a science buff, and a big fan of Darwin's. Science (roughly speaking, and in my own words) is about understanding the laws and processes of nature via the interpretation of empirical facts; it relies heavily upon repeatable experiments and the testing of hypothesis, which themselves are often the product of genius and imagination. It can be fascinating, awe inspiring stuff -- especially modern physics and cosmology -- and also extremely practical: think electricity and magnetism, Maxwell's equations, etc. leading to modern telecommunications, appliances, and so forth and so on. Or biomedical research made possible by genomics and molecular biology.

OK, now that we have got that straight I would like to make another point: Science is not everything. There are definite limits to the kinds of questions science can and cannot answer, even in principle, and beyond those limits lie many things that human beings value, and which make life rich and meaningful. Beauty and justice are two outstanding examples. Indeed, conciousness itself, strictly speaking, it is not a scientific category or even an empirical reality, being (to follow Popper) a matter of subjective, private experience, and therefore not observable by intersubjective agreement. Which is not to knock neuroscience, btw, or the search for analgesics, or the neurophysiological correlates of various kinds of human experience.

OK, what about the idea of intelligent design, or that there is some kind of moral order at the heart of human experience, or the idea that there is some kind of ultimate justice in the universe, and that everybody gets what they deserve in the end, if not while you live, then when you die? (Or, in the anthropological terms of the ancient Hebraic tradition: there is a God and you will be judged.) This is clearly not a scientific concept. It may be true, and every person might conceivably experience the truth of it when he or she dies, but science will never know. (God I wish I were more articulate!)

The laws of physics themselves may be the result of an intelligent designer, but again science will never know. Why not? Because no conceivable evidence would support that conclusion. Likewise, no conceivable evidence would support the opposite conclusion. What about chance, you say? The random nature of mutations, the hit-and-miss methods of natural and sexual selection in an ever changing environment? Doesn't this prove that life is a meaningless, pointless process? No, not really. Chance is perfectly compatible with design. Think only of a pair of dice: the chance of snake eyes is one in thirty-six, but only if the dice have been very carefully designed and manufactured. Who is to say that the chemical elements which underlie all chemical and biological processes are not God's dice (speaking metaphorically of course)?

Currently there is a big debate in physics on why the laws of physics are tuned just so to allow the evolution of intelligent life. String theorists think there are 10 to the 500th power possible universes, most of which would not support life. Why do we live in one that does? That, my fellow citizens, is at present an unanswerable question, and it may remain forever unanswered. Indeed, if it is because of an intelligent designer it will remain forever unanwered.

So let me close with a simple question: if these issues of the limits of science and the status of meaning and other moral categories are not going to be discussed in a science class, Chapter One, just where are they going to be discussed? People care, children care, parents care. Do we just tell them tough luck, this is no part of a person's public education? I don't think so. And those who care about the future public support of science and scientific research should not think so either. Science (including the Darwinian theory of random mutation and natural selection) is not an ally of atheism and moral nihilism necessarily, as many "educated" people seem to believe, and it is just not good enough to ignore the issue. Teaching the controversy is precisely what is called for. It is an endlessly fascinating subject.

Please forgive my typos and spelling errors. I am an old man with fat fingers who can barely see. thanks,

Eastwest 09-01-2008 05:04 PM

Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 89249)
It is his birth, life and death story. The emotional tone in his voice as he sings "my own mother", is probably the most genuine representation of emotional pain through lyrics. Anyhow, an aside from the general topic...

Not off-topic at all. Everything, politics and otherwise, boils down to being ground down by or transcending of the blues implicit in a worldly existence. Everything else is a diversion.

EW

Xelgaex 09-01-2008 05:05 PM

Re: The Chess Game
 
Recently I've been hearing two main complaints on what Democrats should be saying, and they are both present in this conversation. The first is that they should be more policy oriented, and the second is that they need to hit harder. The problem is that it can be hard to do both at the same time.

I think the answer can be found in some of what the Republicans are doing. Take the "Drill Here, Drill Now" campaign. It's policy based, it's easily communicated, and it has a implicit attack that can be made explicit: "The Democrats want high gas prices." But I think the key is that they kept talking about the issue, using the same language, for weeks.

The same thing could be done with the issues mentioned in the diavlog.

bkjazfan 09-01-2008 05:11 PM

Re: The Chess Game
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anyuser (Post 89224)
Is it possible to believe that McCain knew Bristol was pregnant when he picked her mom for VP?

You got to be kidding! Is this bloggingheadstv or "The National Enquier?"

Whew, Josh finally got off the Sarah Palin topic. I agree with much of what he said about her. I did get a chuckle when he said part of Obama's experience was writing 2 books. If that counts as experience then Senator Moynihan should have been the President of the World since his writings were voluminous.

Hey, Senator Obama won his primary, is inspirational and will probably be the next pres. He is extraordinarily talented, is a man with plan, and is executing it brillantly.

John

Ocean 09-01-2008 05:29 PM

Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastwest (Post 89254)
Not off-topic at all. Everything, politics and otherwise, boils down to being ground down by or transcending of the blues implicit in a worldly existence. Everything else is a diversion.

EW

I guess my fascination with this song has more to do with a desire to transcend than with being ground down. The song is a reminder about how one can be "trapped". And a beautiful one, nonetheless.

Wonderment 09-01-2008 05:37 PM

Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.
 
Quote:

As an aside, so much for this family's ability to provide adequate sex education to their children. Her daughter may have been better off with a box of condoms instead of the Bible...
It's hard to predict how the scandal will play out. I can see pros and cons of the story for the Palin candidacy. One thing's for sure: she is now the VP candidate with the pregnant teen daughter. For better or for worse, it's an indelible part of her image now.

I'm much more interested in the "one heartbeat away" aspect of the candidacy.

I think the Dems. would be very smart to really pump up the volume on that one.

What if the Great War Hero, POW and wise old diplomat should die? Who will really run the country then? Obama, Biden and McCain bring established networks of leadership and collective wisdom? What does Palin bring? Will she be susceptible to the influence of nefarious extremists who can bamboozle her? Dick Cheney rising from the political grave? John Bolton? Some nutcase Dr. Strangelove in the Pentagon? An Armageddon-deranged preacher?

This line of attack runs the risk of being sexist, but the Dems. should be able to spin it as gender-neutral and simply based on the inexperience factor.

Palin is not really comparable to Obama on experience, as the Repubs have been arguing the last few days. Obama is firmly rooted in core Democratic traditions and surrounded by well-known advisors, wonks and veteran players. Harvard and Chicago are as establishment as you can get. Palin, on the other hand was the mayor of Wasilia and a student at North Idaho College.

Anyuser 09-01-2008 05:37 PM

Bristol's relevance
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jcohen57 (Post 89250)
From NYT: Mr. Obama said the pregnancy “has no relevance to Governor Palin’s performance as a governor or her potential performance as a vice president.” He added that, “my mother had me when she was 18. How family deals with issues and teen-age children – that shouldn’t be the topic of our politics.”

“So,” he added, “I would strongly urge people to back off these kinds of stories.”

Says it all.

You're not being realistic. Strictly speaking it is of course correct that Bristol's pregnancy is not relevant to her mother's potential performance as vice president. It is, however, relevant to whether a voter can picture Palin as vice president in the first place. If a candidate's family weren't relevant to the desirability of the candidate, they wouldn't be trotted out on stage for public viewing.

I view McCain's choice of Palin as a tactic in a battle of images. Obama countered balanced his exoticism by selecting a boring old white guy to be VP. Boring old white guy John chose Palin to add panache. I imagine McCain thought, you want somebody outside the norm? Meet Sarah Palin. Her biography is every bit as compelling as Obama's, but her story is American, not exotic. You think first time black is cool? How about first time female? Check her out and I'll bet you'll relate to her in ways that you cannot relate to Obama, you'll prefer her.

I guess it's an open question as to how many neutral voters would feel indisposed toward Palin because they don't want to have to think about her pregnant, so far unwed, teenage daughter. Even so, I think it's a legitimate question and I think the number would be greater than zero.

Obama has no choice but to posture on this topic as he did. What's your excuse?

P.S. I realize I'm dragging down the tone of the high-minded BHTV comment board, but if you're a guttersnipe like me, the women at Slate have some fascinating things to say on this topic.

Ocean 09-01-2008 05:49 PM

Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 89258)
What if the Great War Hero, POW and wise old diplomat should die? Who will really run the country then? Obama, Biden and McCain bring established networks of leadership and collective wisdom? What does Palin bring? Will she be susceptible to the influence of nefarious extremists who can bamboozle her? Dick Cheney rising from the political grave? John Bolton? Some nutcase Dr. Strangelove in the Pentagon? An Armageddon-deranged preacher?

This line of attack runs the risk of being sexist, but the Dems. should be able to spin it as gender-neutral and simply based on the inexperience factor.

Palin is not really comparable to Obama on experience, as the Repubs have been arguing the last few days. Obama is firmly rooted in core Democratic traditions and surrounded by well-known advisors, wonks and veteran players. Harvard and Chicago are as establishment as you can get. Palin, on the other hand was the mayor of Wasilia and a student at North Idaho College.

I agree. And to balance some of my other comments here, I want to add that the daughter's pregnancy shouldn't be a distraction to addressing the real problems that she poses, as you describe above.

In terms of Harvard and Chicago vs. North Idaho, I would say, maybe with caution. That line of thinking, although it may give you a "base" it doesn't really give you the ceiling. The individual's own intellectual capacity can far surpass the average level of education provided by any given school. Let's remember the Yale legacy we've had to endure...

AemJeff 09-01-2008 05:52 PM

Re: The Chess Game
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BornAgainDemocrat (Post 89253)
This is my first time to comment, and I am not sure how to go about it. I wanted to make a point, seldom made, concerning the creationism vs. science controversy mentioned in the Glen Loury-Josh Cohen exchange. Do I have to enter it under Re:The Chess Game?

Very well, for it is about the chess game of politics and society, since the kind of stuff I am about to get into is dear to the hearts of most human beings, even the uneducated, but the educated too. Elections can turn on it.

But before I begin let me make clear that I am not only NOT a Creationist, but very much a science buff, and a big fan of Darwin's. Science (roughly speaking, and in my own words) is about understanding the laws and processes of nature via the interpretation of empirical facts; it relies heavily upon repeatable experiments and the testing of hypothesis, which themselves are often the product of genius and imagination. It can be fascinating, awe inspiring stuff -- especially modern physics and cosmology -- and also extremely practical: think electricity and magnetism, Maxwell's equations, etc. leading to modern telecommunications, appliances, and so forth and so on. Or biomedical research made possible by genomics and molecular biology.

OK, now that we have got that straight I would like to make another point: Science is not everything. There are definite limits to the kinds of questions science can and cannot answer, even in principle, and beyond those limits lie many things that human beings value, and which make life rich and meaningful. Beauty and justice are two outstanding examples. Indeed, conciousness itself, strictly speaking, it is not a scientific category or even an empirical reality, being (to follow Popper) a matter of subjective, private experience, and therefore not observable by intersubjective agreement. Which is not to knock neuroscience, btw, or the search for analgesics, or the neurophysiological correlates of various kinds of human experience.

OK, what about the idea of intelligent design, or that there is some kind of moral order at the heart of human experience, or the idea that there is some kind of ultimate justice in the universe, and that everybody gets what they deserve in the end, if not while you live, then when you die? (Or, in the anthropological terms of the ancient Hebraic tradition: there is a God and you will be judged.) This is clearly not a scientific concept. It may be true, and every person might conceivably experience the truth of it when he or she dies, but science will never know. (God I wish I were more articulate!)

The laws of physics themselves may be the result of an intelligent designer, but again science will never know. Why not? Because no conceivable evidence would support that conclusion. Likewise, no conceivable evidence would support the opposite conclusion. What about chance, you say? The random nature of mutations, the hit-and-miss methods of natural and sexual selection in an ever changing environment? Doesn't this prove that life is a meaningless, pointless process? No, not really. Chance is perfectly compatible with design. Think only of a pair of dice: the chance of snake eyes is one in thirty-six, but only if the dice have been very carefully designed and manufactured. Who is to say that the chemical elements which underlie all chemical and biological processes are not God's dice (speaking metaphorically of course)?

Currently there is a big debate in physics on why the laws of physics are tuned just so to allow the evolution of intelligent life. String theorists think there are 10 to the 500th power possible universes, most of which would not support life. Why do we live in one that does? That, my fellow citizens, is at present an unanswerable question, and it may remain forever unanswered. Indeed, if it is because of an intelligent designer it will remain forever unanwered.

So let me close with a simple question: if these issues of the limits of science and the status of meaning and other moral categories are not going to be discussed in a science class, Chapter One, just where are they going to be discussed? People care, children care, parents care. Do we just tell them tough luck, this is no part of a person's public education? I don't think so. And those who care about the future public support of science and scientific research should not think so either. Science (including the Darwinian theory of random mutation and natural selection) is not an ally of atheism and moral nihilism necessarily, as many "educated" people seem to believe, and it is just not good enough to ignore the issue. Teaching the controversy is precisely what is called for. It is an endlessly fascinating subject.

Please forgive my typos and spelling errors. I am an old man with fat fingers who can barely see. thanks,

If science can't answer a particular question, and there are probably a few of those, where else to turn? I hope not religion, which has a demonstrated lack of question answering authority. Maybe, eventually, we'll have no choice but to rely on some sort of partly a priori process. In fact that was true even a hundred years ago - much of Einstein's work came of asking cogent questions and finding answers based on the force of logic. (But the validation was still arrived at experimentally.) The problem with a religious approach is that the answers found are generally those that fit some deep need (of course you'll live forever!) and skeptical questions are not, explicitly not, part of the process.

Because science may not be able to answer every question is no reason to believe that religion of capable of filling any of the gaps.

Ray 09-01-2008 05:53 PM

Re: The Chess Game
 
Quote:

Strictly speaking it is of course correct that Bristol's pregnancy is not relevant to her mother's potential performance as vice president.
Untrue. The conservative spin will present both Palin's daughter's and Palin's own choice to marry after conceiving a child out of wedlock as epitomizing responsibility. They sinned, but they paid for their sins.

Unfortunately, what these all-American girls did with their bodies isn't the issue here.

In twenty years, half of Africa will be dead due to the way abstinence-only sex education impacts HIV infection rates there. We have every indication that Palin's thinking on sex education will follow Bush's, which has had disastrous results overseas.

Family planning, I'm afraid to pun, is not just a domestic issue.

Wonderment 09-01-2008 05:58 PM

Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.
 
Quote:

In terms of Harvard and Chicago vs. North Idaho, I would say, maybe with caution. That line of thinking, although it may give you a "base" it doesn't really give you the ceiling. The individual's own intellectual capacity can far surpass the average level of education provided by any given school. Let's remember the Yale legacy we've had to endure...
To be clear, personally I am not overly impressed by the Harvard crendentials and old-boy networks argument, and I do recognize that North Idaho can have a lot of appeal to the pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps voter.

Sarah wins as the regular "guy" (hockey mom) you'd want to have a beer with, and Obama will always be the aloof egg-head elitist.

But the Dems. can now play the National Security card in an interesting way. The What-if-POTUS-dies scenario now clearly favors Dems. Security moms may vote against the hockey mom (thanks for that beer though).

Ocean 09-01-2008 06:09 PM

Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderment (Post 89264)
To be clear, personally I am not overly impressed by the Harvard crendentials and old-boy networks argument, and I do recognize that North Idaho can have a lot of appeal to the pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps voter.

Sarah wins as the regular "guy" (hockey mom) you'd want to have a beer with, and Obama will always be the aloof egg-head elitist.

But the Dems. can now play the National Security card in an interesting way. The What-if-POTUS-dies scenario now clearly favors Dems. Security moms may vote against the hockey mom (thanks for that beer though).

Agree.

I do want to say, that I don't know anything about North Idaho education. I only know about North Idaho that its landscape is astonishingly beautiful.

Has Mrs. Palin ever lived in a more or less metropolitan area? I mean Alaska and North Idaho are not representative of the rest of the U.S. Has she been exposed to America?


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:15 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.