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Bloggingheads 11-16-2011 08:24 PM

Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 

chiwhisoxx 11-16-2011 08:41 PM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
aryeh, if this DV title was your work, well played.

Don Zeko 11-16-2011 09:14 PM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx (Post 231878)
aryeh, if this DV title was your work, well played.

I'm sure that Aryeh takes that responsibility very seriously, seeing as Fire and Blood will surely result from a sub-par DV title. And why shouldn't he? I mean, We Do Not Sow when we aren't prepared to reap. And really, I think we should give Aryeh more credit. He comes in every day to Hear Me Roar, among others, about this or that shortcoming of the DV's, and yet every day he emerges, Unbowed, Unbent, and Unbroken.

badhatharry 11-16-2011 10:44 PM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
During the first twenty minutes, Conn looks like he's thinking, "Thank God I didn't marry a woman like this."

Here's a summary of Michelle's insights, first twenty minutes...

1)It's of the utmost importance to determine why the dismantling of OWS is happening now.

2)Given the behavior of the folks in Oakland the cops in NYC were incredibly out of line to be so heavy handed with the protestors.

3)Occupations are just like concerts.

4)It's too simple to reduce the movement to overblown sketchiness.

5)The reason the polls are unfavorable for the OWS movement because they're getting tons of bad press.

6)People don't like OWS's short term goals. Although they haven't any long term goals, people don't like them either.

gotta go!

ginger baker 11-16-2011 10:49 PM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
michelle is very good here. And though I agree "self-expression" has fragmented progressives and liberals it will nonetheless remain the project of "the left" to recognize that legacy and still find w ay to appeal to those who want to express themselves.

And, also to keep in mind it was the anarchists who brought "the occupation" to life - not liberals, and certainly not those who write for The Nation or work for Move.on - and who remain committed to the movement globally. Finally, I wonder whether Michelle would ever level her indictment against "identity politics" too.

thouartgob 11-16-2011 11:15 PM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
Is Conn suggesting that all economic activity at a sector level should be financed and controlled by a few super wealthy elites.

Yo Betcha !! :)

miceelf 11-16-2011 11:22 PM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 231890)
During the first twenty minutes, Conn looks like he's thinking, "Thank God I didn't marry a woman like this."

If true, Michelle is likely thinking the same thing.

Still, glad to see Conn isn't reduced to being a mere commenter here, but is still diavlogging as well. That would have been a real mighty have fallen scenario.

jeffpeterson 11-17-2011 12:10 AM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
Incredibly distracting background audio at various points in this diavlog. Time to include a clause in the contract specifying that "diavlogger will find a quiet place free of distractions to record the video."

Sulla the Dictator 11-17-2011 12:16 AM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
I thought that the police, nationwide, were far too lenient with the OWS crowd. Oakland was particularly weak kneed in its response. Police chiefs should ask themselves: "What would Bonaparte do?"

Sulla the Dictator 11-17-2011 01:04 AM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
"Politics of self expression" seems to be a kind of way of saying narcissism.

I also shudder to think of the person so extreme on the left that Nancy Pelosi and Bernie Sanders aren't representative. Who are we talking about, open Marxists? We shouldn't be concerned about representing people like that anymore than we care about representing Nazis. They're marginal people for whom politics is an expression of deep seated psychological problems.

Thirdly, Michelle often compares the Left and the Right, and suggests that the Left adopt some tactical pose or organizational strategy to mimic the right. These things don't work because in politics, form follows function. OWS is a rather ugly, Bizzaro version of the Tea Party because the mechanism warps the political activist. It is easy for middle class people and war veterans and seniors to march in protest of the government; it is also extraordinary. These people are the backbone of healthy culture, and in order to raise their ire you have to have gone pretty far askew.

It is hard for youths and political activists and trade unionists to protest not the government, but 1/3rd of it and protest private entities when their section of the political scale runs 2/3rds of the government, and all of the government in the states where the Occupy movement has been the largest. (California, New York, Oregon)

Hume's Bastard 11-17-2011 01:17 AM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 231890)
During the first twenty minutes, Conn looks like he's thinking, "Thank God I didn't marry a woman like this."

Here's a summary of Michelle's insights, first twenty minutes...

1)It's of the utmost importance to determine why the dismantling of OWS is happening now.

2)Given the behavior of the folks in Oakland the cops in NYC were incredibly out of line to be so heavy handed with the protestors.

3)Occupations are just like concerts.

4)It's too simple to reduce the movement to overblown sketchiness.

5)The reason the polls are unfavorable for the OWS movement because they're getting tons of bad press.

6)People don't like OWS's short term goals. Although they haven't any long term goals, people don't like them either.

gotta go!

Goldberg wouldn't be my first choice for this topic, but I also wouldn't pick Carroll to take the second window either. At least Amanda Marcotte interacted with the Occupy movement. How about a reporter like Harry Siegel, Lee Papa, or Allison Kilkenny paired with someone from the Tea Party who actually went out protesting. So much of the criticism of the Zucotti park actions sounds like "Eww, yuck, dirty lefty people in a public park with free food and homeless crazy people!" I've actually seen conservatives at protests, and they weren't clutching air freshener and towelettes compulsively. I see this huge problem with journos who are so tied in to their establishments connections that they can't contemplate reality beyond Prince George's or Alexandria. These are probably some of the same people whose parents had security clearances and who grew up scared shitless about self-expression and getting sent to the principal's office, for fear Daddy or Mommy would lose their jobs.

Aryeh 11-17-2011 01:18 AM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
Just a little something for all the nerds out there ;)

Hume's Bastard 11-17-2011 01:31 AM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
I'm listening to Goldberg as I write this, and Carroll is just pummeling her with good arguments, I'm sad to report. Protests are illegal, confrontational actions, even the civil disobedience actions, Michelle! Conn is right! - this is not a walk in the park! Just because you agree with the protest doesn't mean it's still not illegal and dangerous for those participating. The organizers should have had contingencies planned, including arrests or the probability of a violent crackdown. Like many pundits, I assume the GA or spokespeople are plotting or have plotted a response, because right now OWS looks amateurish.

chamblee54 11-17-2011 04:01 AM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
Ms. Goldberg says something about Occupy Atlanta.
The truth is a bit more nuanced than that. While the incident with Mr. Lewis looks bad, there is more than meets the eye. Ms. Goldberg does not know what she is talking about.
chamblee54

chamblee54 11-17-2011 04:04 AM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
Congratulations to thouartgob for getting an amplifier triple play. This and two dollars will get a cup of coffee.
chamblee54

chamblee54 11-17-2011 04:23 AM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
Ms. Goldberg says a mouthful.
Two wrongs do not make a right. Hippies are trespassing. Financial wise guys wreck the economy. If everybody has to obey the law, then the moneylenders who got us into this mess need their day in court, and probably a few years hard time.
The lack of consequences for the wheeler dealers who wrecked the economy is a problem. If everybody has to obey the law, then they deserve at least as much legal attention as the hippies camping out downtown.
chamblee54

harkin 11-17-2011 08:21 AM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
Michelle encapsulates the attitudes of the Day Of Rage/OWS/Obamaville misfits perfectly, absolutely nothing is their fault and despite illegal squatting, flouting of laws, lack of demonstration permit requirements, filth, noise, vandalism, thefts, public defecation, using children as shields against police, leaders attempting to steal donations, drug dealing, disease, rapes, deaths etc etc......it was the response of the authorities that was excessive. And this is known as "connecting with reality"????? Too funny.

This is like someone breaking into your house and trashing it and when you come home and ask them to leave, they get in your face and start screaming (mic check!!!")- you try to push them towards the door and they resist so you are forced to roughly eject them..........and then they complain you could have just asked them to leave. These rejects may be clueless but they are perfect for democrat voters and wards of the state.

The liberals were dying for an answer from their side to the polite, clean (they may not have been excessive with towlettes, but they didn't leave mountains of filth, bang drums till all hours, make everyone who lived near the demonstration sick to death of them, rob etc and oh yeah they were able to communicate their ideas without all the excesses of the Zuccotti clowns, who looks smarter?) and effective (2010 mid-terms) Tea Party and instead they got a collection of idiots and failures who believe rule of law and proper political action does not apply to themselves. The calls for violence (kill the rich, burn down Macy's etc) as they realize the entire world is not going to join them and storm the banks is a howl of ignorant frustration.

There is so much hypocrisy and lack of coherant thought in the entire movement the summary of the lunacy should be impressive.

thouartgob 11-17-2011 09:36 AM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chamblee54 (Post 231906)
Congratulations to thouartgob for getting an amplifier triple play. This and two dollars will get a cup of coffee.
chamblee54

Actually this dubious distinction would probably be used to keep me out of a decent coffee house :) I am but a vessel of a vessel of a somewhat menial power.

badhatharry 11-17-2011 09:38 AM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hume's Bastard (Post 231902)
Goldberg wouldn't be my first choice for this topic, but I also wouldn't pick Carroll to take the second window either. At least Amanda Marcotte interacted with the Occupy movement.

Oh, Michelle pointed out several times that she was there. And she alluded to the fact that she was once just like those drug taking, grunge kids from the NW (what? at a halloween party?) Can you see her at Zucotti going "ewwww! Don't touch my hair! Do you know how much I paid for those shoes?" I'm not fond of Ms. Goldberg, can you tell?

I guess because of the proliferation of diavlogs about this subject, I'm not really concerned with their qualifications to discuss it. I think a lot of people on the right have covered it, Lee Stanahan comes to mind.

miceelf 11-17-2011 09:40 AM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by harkin (Post 231914)
they were able to communicate their ideas without all the excesses of the Zuccotti clowns, who looks smarter?) and effective (2010 mid-terms) Tea Party

Right. Because there have been a host of elections since OWS started, which allow ample assessment of their electoral influence.

I am sure John Kasich is relieved that OWS has been such a dud politically.

badhatharry 11-17-2011 09:47 AM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ginger baker (Post 231891)
michelle is very good here. And though I agree "self-expression" has fragmented progressives and liberals it will nonetheless remain the project of "the left" to recognize that legacy and still find w ay to appeal to those who want to express themselves.

yeah, that's the problem isn't it? fragmented self expression. bummer.

eric 11-17-2011 10:14 AM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
It's obnoxious. A little empathy for the viewer/listener would help. I turned it off.

Romanized 11-17-2011 11:15 AM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
This had to happen now precisely because it could have petered out soon. If NYC had let these privileged, white hippies get away with breaking the law the police would have had even less credibility in minority communities then they currently have.

I could see the police having an issue with, say, flash mobs in Brooklyn, and imposing strict curfews and anti-loitering edicts. The first time the police cracked down on a crowd of black youths after curfew the kid's parents, their lawyers and the right Rev. Dr. Shabazz T. Jones would be all over the media screaming racism.

Bloomberg is smart enough to know this. He'll take a hit for the raid now, but will be better for it in the long run.

geoffrobinson 11-17-2011 11:56 AM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
This 1% changes year to year. People fall into and out of the 1% all the time. Not to mention a lot of the 1% are doctors and lawyers. Just read Thomas Sowell on this point.

If you don't have the same people over time gaining more and more income, this analysis becomes meaningless. We need to be tracking how specific people and specific industries are doing over time. This analysis just seems like poor statistics.

Not only that, but who cares? How does income inequality affect people? You have to assume a zero-sum game, and I don't assume that. There isn't a finite pool of wealth out there. Wealth can be generated. The economy grows.

And, frankly, doing OK by yourself (barring some catastrophic event that should require some sort of safety net) isn't that hard:
1) finish at least high school
2) don't go to jail or get involved in illegal activity
3) show up for work and don't be late
4) live below your means and save (this is what has really screwed us)

harkin 11-17-2011 12:05 PM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Romanized
I could see the police having an issue with, say, flash mobs in Brooklyn, and imposing strict curfews and anti-loitering edicts. The first time the police cracked down on a crowd of black youths after curfew the kid's parents, their lawyers and the right Rev. Dr. Shabazz T. Jones would be all over the media screaming racism.

Nice addition of common sense. The coddling and enabling of these law-breakers has only made the communities that supported them the most regret it all the more. Berkeley, NYC, Oakland etc must be wondering how they could have assumed that allowing people to make their own rules was going to result is happy co-existence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 231921)
I am sure John Kasich is relieved that OWS has been such a dud politically.

Yes I'm sure it was beating on drums, camping in parks and defecating on police cars that convinced the Buckeye state voters, not the $30 million from unions (or the $800,000 spent just to collect signatures, or the unions that took an extra $54 from every member's paycheck to finance attack ads).

And don't be too glad about Ohio, they still have no money to sustain the union-democratic cycle of corruption. Let's compare the financial health of the school systems in OH and WI in a couple years.

In WI they're already uncovering teacher union insurance scams, saving young teacher positions and putting school systems in the black. In OH they can pause with relief and then get back to wondering how to solve an $8 billion shortfall caused by union/party power and greed, and unions (with taxpayer-sourced money) which paid $30 million to keep digging the hole.

basman 11-17-2011 12:13 PM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miceelf (Post 231921)
Right. Because there have been a host of elections since OWS started, which allow ample assessment of their electoral influence.

I am sure John Kasich is relieved that OWS has been such a dud politically.

This, with respect, is no answer to Harkin's point. OWS will influence no political party and no substantial electoral constituency in any registerable way, let alone in ways analogous to the impact of the Tea Party, agree with it or not. Saying there haven't been elections presupposes the possibility of that impact. That possibility, you must know, is a fantasy. The greater source for political potency is the extent to which politicians will separate themselves from what OWS has degenerated into. That degeneration makes pathetic the enthusiasms of those on the left who saw in OWS (my generic name for the whole ilk) the basis for the transformation of American Society. Some of us early on called how this mindless, unstructured utopian infantilism would end, as it whimpers away without a bang of real world impact.

Itzik Basman

bkjazfan 11-17-2011 01:21 PM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator (Post 231897)
I thought that the police, nationwide, were far too lenient with the OWS crowd. Oakland was particularly weak kneed in its response. Police chiefs should ask themselves: "What would Bonaparte do?"

Police Chiefs like the one in the City of Los Angeles are accountable to the police commission, mayor and the city council. They cannot willy nilly go off and do what they want to do. Perhaps, the one before, William Bratton, had more leverage due to his gravitas but the chief now, Charlie Beck, has to do the bidding of his bosses.

thouartgob 11-17-2011 01:56 PM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by geoffrobinson (Post 231934)
And, frankly, doing OK by yourself (barring some catastrophic event that should require some sort of safety net) isn't that hard:
1) finish at least high school
2) don't go to jail or get involved in illegal activity
3) show up for work and don't be late
4) live below your means and save (this is what has really screwed us)

This means that the 9% unemployed are either lazy, uneducated, a thug or an extravagant spender. We don't have an employment problem, it's just that approx. 10% of the population are lazy scumbags. That would make for some great slogans for 2012. :)

bkjazfan 11-17-2011 02:19 PM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by basman (Post 231936)
This, with respect, is no answer to Harkin's point. OWS will influence no political party and no substantial electoral constituency in any registerable way, let alone in ways analogous to the impact of the Tea Party, agree with it or not. Saying there haven't been elections presupposes the possibility of that impact. That possibility, you must know, is a fantasy. The greater source for political potency is the extent to which politicians will separate themselves from what OWS has degenerated into. That degeneration makes pathetic the enthusiasms of those on the left who saw in OWS (my generic name for the whole ilk) the basis for the transformation of American Society. Some of us early on called how this mindless, unstructured utopian infantilism would end, as it whimpers away without a bang of real world impact.

Itzik Basman

Right, I don't see a positive impact for the dems who with some of their leaders were at a maximum, were giving lip service to it. Now, unless they represent a very poor constituency, like mine - Maxine Waters, are running from the results that we have seen. It has turned into someone's idea of a bad joke.

conncarroll 11-17-2011 03:01 PM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thouartgob (Post 231892)
Is Conn suggesting that all economic activity at a sector level should be financed and controlled by a few super wealthy elites.

Yo Betcha !! :)

Ummmm no. I was arguing that when government tries to subsidize a sector it is impossible not to enrich a few super wealthy elites. Big difference.

kezboard 11-17-2011 03:23 PM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
Also, in the last few years, a huge number of normal Americans have suddenly become miscreants.

kezboard 11-17-2011 03:27 PM

civil disobedience
 
Conn made the point that civil disobedience must necessarily be about breaking a specific law you believe is unjust. That's just wrong. Thoreau invented the phrase civil disobedience to describe his acts of protest, which were specifically not paying taxes. He wasn't doing this to protest taxes, but to protest slavery and the US-Mexican war.

Sulla the Dictator 11-17-2011 04:04 PM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thouartgob (Post 231944)
This means that the 9% unemployed are either lazy, uneducated, a thug or an extravagant spender. We don't have an employment problem, it's just that approx. 10% of the population are lazy scumbags. That would make for some great slogans for 2012. :)

A minimum of 10% of the American population are lazy scumbags. Now, that isn't necessarily the 10% who are unemployed in the Obama economy, but I think that number is a minimum and the description is accurate.

Again, a tangent. Not speaking about the unemployed necessarily.

Romanized 11-17-2011 04:50 PM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
***BREAKING NEWS***
11/17/2011

Occupiers slash one cop with a blade and injure another cop's eye. Now that's some good civil disobedience. Just like Gandhi and MLK taught them.

Sulla the Dictator 11-17-2011 04:54 PM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Romanized (Post 231959)
***BREAKING NEWS***
11/17/2011

Occupiers slash one cop with a blade and injure another cop's eye. Now that's some good civil disobedience. Just like Gandhi and MLK taught them.

The police also turned over the Occupy Washington camp looking for the fellow who shot at the White House.

Can any liberal honestly admit the slightest bit of embarrassment at the things said about the Tea Party in 2009 and 2010 compared to this gaggle?

badhatharry 11-17-2011 09:01 PM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by harkin (Post 231935)

And don't be too glad about Ohio, they still have no money to sustain the union-democratic cycle of corruption. Let's compare the financial health of the school systems in OH and WI in a couple years.

In WI they're already uncovering teacher union insurance scams, saving young teacher positions and putting school systems in the black. In OH they can pause with relief and then get back to wondering how to solve an $8 billion shortfall caused by union/party power and greed, and unions (with taxpayer-sourced money) which paid $30 million to keep digging the hole.

But Scott Walker is under attack for all of this. I'm sure the same kind of out of state pressure as we saw in Ohio will be brought to bear in the recall efforts.

be strong, cheeseheads!

geoffrobinson 11-17-2011 11:05 PM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
Not quite what I was trying to communicate.

thouartgob 11-18-2011 09:42 AM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by geoffrobinson (Post 231982)
Not quite what I was trying to communicate.

Really ?! I take it you feel that would have been a somewhat superficial reading of your list'o do'sn'don'ts ;)

I certainly take the point the hewing to the list could be a good way to be and stay employed in a much better economy but unfortunately we have not had 8 years of a democratic administration say. But we do have republicans, bless their illogical mindset, looking to cut off the extension of unemployment insurance. They do this because they say such an extension would would make the unemployed lazy. Seems to me all it will do is help swell the ranks of the #2 on your list. Most of the unemployed who can be employed do follow it.

Of course #4 on your list ( living under means ) I gotta say; you gotta a problem with a profitably profligate consumer society pal !! That's capitalism man and is something that kept the economy afloat for quite a while in the oughts. I remember when Greenspan said that ARM's ( adjustable rate mortgages) were a stellar idea and that the liquidity of peoples houses need to be released. This low level tsunami of "free money" floated around attracted the sharks of wall street and you know the rest.

Unlike many on the Right I believe we have a demand problem, not a supply problem, in this country that unfortunately isn't going away quickly so while doing the things on your list is a great idea in any case it will not produce the results you are looking for anytime soon.

badhatharry 11-18-2011 10:00 AM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thouartgob (Post 231993)

Of course #4 on your list ( living under means ) I gotta say; you gotta a problem with a profitably profligate consumer society pal !! That's capitalism man and is something that kept the economy afloat for quite a while in the oughts. I remember when Greenspan said that ARM's ( adjustable rate mortgages) were a stellar idea and that the liquidity of peoples houses need to be released. This low level tsunami of "free money" floated around attracted the sharks of wall street and you know the rest.

So Greenspan was wrong, especially in the case of people using the equity in their houses to buy more stuff. It was the making of a bubble that got the economy where it is today. But this has nothing to do with evaluating capitalism. It's a way of evaluating Greenspan. People need to be smarter and I daresay go back to sensible practices like not buying stuff you can't afford. We don't need Elizabeth Warren or the overthrow of capitalism to accomplish this. We just need to be marginally sensible. Is this too much to ask from the American public?

miceelf 11-18-2011 10:01 AM

Re: Values Added: Winter Is Coming (Michelle Goldberg & Conn Carroll)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 231998)
We don't need Elizabeth Warren or the overthrow of capitalism to accomplish this.

Only one of those two things is on the table.


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