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Bloggingheads 03-05-2010 04:59 PM

The Week in Blog: Unbaked Cake (Bill Scher & Melissa Clouthier)
 

TwinSwords 03-05-2010 05:22 PM

Republicans for Murder as a Political Tool
 
The charming Melissa Clouthier gives a shoutout to Dan Riehl's call for the violent overthrow of the United States government and violent expulsion of Obama and the Democrats.

So, you can see, there is widespread acceptance on the right of the idea that Democratic governance is inherently illegitimate and that the violent overthrow of the government is a proper response to losing elections.

bjkeefe 03-05-2010 05:43 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Unbaked Cake (Bill Scher & Melissa Clouthier)
 
Hey, Melissa, I know your queen spent all of fall 2008 telling you that people like me weren't Real Americans™, but you know what? When you presume to say what "the American people" think and want, you sound as clueless as the caricature you have of "DC types."

Try watching something besides Fox News. Try listening to someone besides Rush Limbaugh. Try reading something besides Erick Erickson, Dan Riehl, and Hot Air. You might learn something.

TwinSwords 03-05-2010 05:53 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Unbaked Cake (Bill Scher & Melissa Clouthier)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 153282)
You might learn something.

Not at all likely. She's deeply indoctrinated, and she likes it that way. This is a woman who thinks the President unilaterally appoints justices to the Utah Supreme Court.

I love how right after she says maybe Obama is appointing justices to Utah's Supreme Court, she says "it's one more thing that makes the process seem so dirty."

Imagine: It's people like Melissa from whom the wingnut right gets its information. No wonder the country is in such trouble.

bjkeefe 03-05-2010 06:05 PM

These people on the far right ...
 
... do like their metaphors of violence, don't they?

Seems like only yesterday that we were being told not to vote for Barack Obama because of his "radical ties" and "pallin' around with terrorists."

jimM47 03-05-2010 06:06 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Unbaked Cake (Bill Scher & Melissa Clouthier)
 
For those interested, Scott Matheson, nominated to the 10th circuit, brother of Jim Matheson (D-UT). Paul Cassel, blogging at the conservative-libertarian-leaning legal blog, Volokh Conspiracy, praising him and disputing any conspiracy theory: http://volokh.com/2010/03/05/scott-m...tenth-circuit/

claymisher 03-05-2010 06:22 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Unbaked Cake (Bill Scher & Melissa Clouthier)
 
Too late. Michele Bachmann is already calling for a special prosecutor to investigate the scandal. It's like Newt never left.

popcorn_karate 03-05-2010 06:25 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Unbaked Cake (Bill Scher & Melissa Clouthier)
 
wow. that was just sad.

http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/264...0:24&out=21:03

"I'm not talking about the reality of the bill, but how it feels"

and why does it feel that way? maybe because people like Melissa run around lying about it and trying to get people to FEEL some fear.

what a tool.

badhatharry 03-05-2010 08:57 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Unbaked Cake (Bill Scher & Melissa Clouthier)
 
Melissa did well. Slow start, but made up for that. Bill was very nice to the newcomer, unlike the insufferable jerks who have posted above.

Melissa is correct about why there is so much angst on the right about the bill and IMHO the angst is justified.

It sounds like no one is happy about the bill, for very different reasons. But it is always silly to make statements about what the American people want, because there really is no such thing and we/they are split pretty much down the middle.

At what point were people thinking that Obama was going to bring fiscal responsibility to Washington?

Only 15 billion? this is insanity.

Ocean 03-05-2010 09:12 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Unbaked Cake (Bill Scher & Melissa Clouthier)
 
I'm hoping that this comment is down enough that I can write what I think about it without breaking some BhTV rule.

I realize it's Friday evening. It's the end of a long week of work. I'm probably tired and cranky. But I could only listen to this for less than 4 minutes. Melissa's "outrage" is revolting. I'll let others enjoy this one. I'd rather shovel snow, if I had any left...

Bob criticized comments that announce that someone isn't going to listen to a diavlog. Wonderment pointed out that it's an act of protest. I'll add that indeed it is a statement of disapproval, for whatever it's worth. Those of us who comment regularly in this forum, may want from time to time express this kind of reaction to a particular diavlogger or topic or political position. Not everything is wonderful. Let's chip away the unwonderfulness.

bjkeefe 03-05-2010 09:23 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Unbaked Cake (Bill Scher & Melissa Clouthier)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 153337)
I'm hoping that this comment is down enough that I can write what I think about it without breaking some BhTV rule.

I realize it's Friday evening. It's the end of a long week of work. I'm probably tired and cranky. But I could only listen to this for less than 4 minutes. Melissa's "outrage" is revolting. I'll let others enjoy this one. I'd rather shovel snow, if I had any left...

It's an understandable reaction, and I probably would have done the same had it not been for wanting to hear from Bill after so many weeks of skipping TWiB.

Still, though, I hope people do listen to at least part of this, because Melissa strikes me as a good representative of the base of the right, and the product of what a couple of years of insularity and non-stop hysteria from their propagandists has wrought. Believe you me, she sounds exactly like 95% of the people posting in the right blogosphere, and I don't even go to the real crazy sites anymore.

Quote:

Bob criticized comments that announce that someone isn't going to listen to a diavlog. Wonderment pointed out that it's an act of protest. I'll add that indeed it is a statement of disapproval, for whatever it's worth. Those of us who comment regularly in this forum, may want from time to time express this kind of reaction to a particular diavlogger or topic or political position. Not everything is wonderful. Let's chip away the unwonderfulness.
Quite so.

badhatharry 03-05-2010 09:28 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Unbaked Cake (Bill Scher & Melissa Clouthier)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 153337)
"outrage" ... revolting.

how sad!

Ocean 03-05-2010 09:30 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Unbaked Cake (Bill Scher & Melissa Clouthier)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 153341)
Still, though, I hope people do listen to at least part of this, because Melissa strikes me as a good representative of the base of the right, and the product of what a couple of years of insularity and non-stop hysteria from their propagandists has wrought. Believe you me, she sounds exactly like 95% of the people posting in the right blogosphere, and I don't even go to the real crazy sites anymore.

I've had the interesting experience of meeting some in real life (AFK), no need for more.

ImprecisePsychic 03-05-2010 09:30 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Unbaked Cake (Bill Scher & Melissa Clouthier)
 
When Matt Lewis charmingly delivers the Right's talking points, he seems 'in on the joke'.

Melissa seems 'not to have a clue', or very many facts, but she's A TRUE BELIEVER.

badhatharry 03-05-2010 09:33 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Unbaked Cake (Bill Scher & Melissa Clouthier)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 153341)
It's an understandable reaction, and I probably would have done the same had it not been for wanting to hear from Bill after so many weeks of skipping TWiB.
Believe you me, she sounds exactly like 95% of the people posting in the right blogosphere, and I don't even go to the real crazy sites anymore.

Yep, real sad. It makes me wonder what this world is coming to. You guys just keep patting yourselves on the back (watch the shoulder!) about your well thought out and compassionate take on things. And don't pay any heed to anyone who doesn't agree with you.

Classic!

Ocean 03-05-2010 09:36 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Unbaked Cake (Bill Scher & Melissa Clouthier)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 153344)
how sad!

Outrage directed to the wrong targets (in someone's opinion) will create a reaction. It is sad indeed because it can originate a cycle of anger and reaction. It's never productive in the long term. The good thing about finding it revolting is that it ends there. Revolting, in the sense that I used it*, is a form of avoidance, not of aggression.

*3.
a. To feel disgust or repugnance: to revolt at a public display of cruelty.
b. To turn away in revulsion or abhorrence: They revolted from the sight.

bjkeefe 03-05-2010 09:41 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Unbaked Cake (Bill Scher & Melissa Clouthier)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 153348)
Yep, real sad. It makes me wonder what this world is coming to. You guys just keep patting yourselves on the back about your well thought out and compassionate take on things. And don't pay any heed to anyone who doesn't agree with you.

Oh, badhat, spring is almost here. Time to put away the victim cloak.

Try to wrap your mind around the idea that there is a difference, even in the mind of us self-aggrandizing libtards, between political views we don't agree with and someone just being generally, boneheadedly against "what Obama is trying to do to the American way of life." This is supposed to be a site where we hear from people capable of discussion at a level above talk radio and the cable yakfests.

You want someone to pay heed to you, you have to be able to make a case with something other than sweeping and unsupported assertions about what "the American people want" and "what everyone outside of DC thinks." Please. Don't tell me you're proud of the way Melissa represented your side's point of view. She did absolutely nothing but parrot the same old fears the rightwing noise machine has been trying to foster since mid-2008, when it became clear Obama was going to win the Democratic Party's nomination.

I gotta tell you -- if you can't get Ocean of all people to listen to you for more than four minutes, there's something seriously wrong.

Ocean 03-05-2010 09:42 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Unbaked Cake (Bill Scher & Melissa Clouthier)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by badhatharry (Post 153348)
Yep, real sad. It makes me wonder what this world is coming to. You guys just keep patting yourselves on the back about your well thought out and compassionate take on things. And don't pay any heed to anyone who doesn't agree with you.

Your statement isn't accurate. There's a significant amount of discussion in this forum. Of course there are times when commenters are in agreement and they state so. However, most of the discussion seems to be between people that are holding different opinions. It seems like you don't like to hear that many others disagree with you.

kezboard 03-05-2010 09:43 PM

Political ventriloquism
 
Recently there's been a lot of complaints about heads who say "the American people want/don't want/believe/don't believe" and then proceed to share their own opinion. Melissa Clouthier is the veritable Shari Lewis of this kind of political ventriloquism, except Shari didn't actually believe that Lambchop was a real person whose thoughts and ideas she was accurately portraying.

I don't think this fallacy has a name. It isn't an argument from popularity, because the whole point is that you don't actually know whether the point you're trying to make is popular or not (and often it's impossible to know, as in Melissa's argument that the American People see health care reform as "just another big government program"). But it seems to me that when you're reduced to using the American People as your dummy, it's an indication that you actually can't back up your point. So I propose a new internet law: any time you say "The people believe such-and-such", you must immediately back it up with data from a reputable pollster or else concede that you're projecting your own opinion onto 300 million people and pretending that justifies your argument. This law will be called Clouthier's Law.

ETA: What the hell? You know that Tom DeLay! Squeaky clean! How dare that dastardly liberal Bill cast aspersions at him!
ETA part 2: Good point. Reconciliation has never been used by a Democratic majority to pass health care reform in a year ending in 0 when the senate majority leader's last name ends in a letter that is in the first half of the alphabet and Jupiter is in Sagittarius.

Ocean 03-05-2010 09:43 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Unbaked Cake (Bill Scher & Melissa Clouthier)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 153351)
Oh, badhat, spring is almost here. Time to put away the victim cloak.

LOL!

Quote:

I gotta tell you -- if you can't get Ocean of all people to listen to you for more than four minutes, there's something seriously wrong.
ROFL!

sugarkang 03-05-2010 09:51 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Unbaked Cake (Bill Scher & Melissa Clouthier)
 
Wow, I miss Matt. This woman is fail.

Ocean 03-05-2010 09:55 PM

Re: Political ventriloquism
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kezboard (Post 153353)
Recently there's been a lot of complaints about heads who say "the American people want/don't want/believe/don't believe" and then proceed to share their own opinion.

...

I don't think this fallacy has a name. It isn't an argument from popularity, because the whole point is that you don't actually know whether the point you're trying to make is popular or not (and often it's impossible to know, as in Melissa's argument that the American People see health care reform as "just another big government program"). But it seems to me that when you're reduced to using the American People as your dummy, it's an indication that you actually can't back up your point.

I've been trying hard not to, but I have no choice but to bring back from the dark corners of the forbidden, the oh-so-overly-used term "meme". That's exactly how it works. Some idea, concept is made public, and then repeated endlessly. It's used as if it contained some basic uncontroversial truth behind. People start to accept it is true even when it has never proven to be such. It's become very popular in the media. I would say it's being used very widely by the right. It's sad.

Quote:

So I propose a new internet law: any time you say "The people believe such-and-such", you must immediately back it up with data from a reputable pollster or else concede that you're projecting your own opinion onto 300 million people and pretending that justifies your argument. This law will be called Clouthier's Law.
No, don't glamorize the undeserving. She didn't invent it.

If you want to give it a name, call it Lambchop's law. Wasn't it Lambchop that would come up with the funniest, most outrageous ideas as if they were self evident?

grits-n-gravy 03-05-2010 10:04 PM

Re: Republicans for Murder as a Political Tool
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TwinSwords (Post 153274)
The charming Melissa Clouthier gives a shoutout to Dan Riehl's call for the violent overthrow of the United States government and violent expulsion of Obama and the Democrats.

So, you can see, there is widespread acceptance on the right of the idea that Democratic governance is inherently illegitimate and that the violent overthrow of the government is a proper response to losing elections.

I was driving behind some dimwit today who had a "impeach Obama" bumper sticker. Needless to say he was a middle age white male in a pickup truck somewhere in rural California.

Don Zeko 03-05-2010 10:13 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Unbaked Cake (Bill Scher & Melissa Clouthier)
 
http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/264...2:28&out=22:34

Melissa, you are not the American People. Nor can you read the minds of The American People. Nor does it make Bill wrong that other people disagree with him. If you can't argue on the merits, why are you wasting our time?

Don Zeko 03-05-2010 10:24 PM

Re: The Week in Blog: Unbaked Cake (Bill Scher & Melissa Clouthier)
 
http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/264...9:11&out=29:16

My entire family is currently getting health insurance through COBRA. Are we not "The American People?" Stop projecting your heartless, paranoid fantasies onto the rest of us.

claymisher 03-05-2010 11:11 PM

Re: Political ventriloquism
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean (Post 153358)
If you want to give it a name, call it Lambchop's law. Wasn't it Lambchop that would come up with the funniest, most outrageous ideas as if they were self evident?

I vote yes on Lambchop's law. Or should I say, "The America People support Lambchop's Law!"

kezboard 03-05-2010 11:30 PM

This is the song that never ends...
 
I agree. Much better.

http://bighugelabs.com/output/lolcat...f4c0b755ef.jpg

claymisher 03-05-2010 11:33 PM

Re: This is the song that never ends...
 
kez wins the internet!

ohreally 03-06-2010 01:08 AM

Re: The Week in Blog: Unbaked Cake (Bill Scher & Melissa Clouthier)
 
Scher is such a decent guy. Though I disagree with everything she stands for, Clouthier was not bad at all. She made several interesting points. One is that to vote against the Senate bill in the House is hardly a losing proposition: "I voted for a good bill and against a bad one." What's wrong with that? Perhaps Scher is being a bit naive there. The second one is the mandate: the same administration that filled the coffers of Wall Street with your money wants to make you a criminal if you don't enrich private insurance companies out to rip you off. Funny how commenters seem too fond of their own jackassery to address such things. Like what's with bjkeefe's condescending tone toward badhatharry?
>> Try to wrap your mind around the idea...
Not to mention
>> Oh, badhat, spring is almost here. Time to put away the victim cloak.

Apparently, being smart is harder than being a jerk.

qingl78 03-06-2010 02:15 AM

Re: The Week in Blog: Unbaked Cake (Bill Scher & Melissa Clouthier)
 
didn't we loose 9 billion in the ever shifting sands of Iraq?

and speaking of ever shifting sands, it is hilarious to watch Melissa shift from 15 billion OMG! to "in the grand scheme of things what is 15 billion going to do" when the Mass Tea bagger is brought up.

listener 03-06-2010 05:31 AM

Re: The Week in Blog: Unbaked Cake (Bill Scher & Melissa Clouthier)
 
I was impressed with Scher's unfailing politeness toward the newcomer Clouthier, despite her repeated, offhandedly disrepectful dismissal of his views, giggling obnoxiously as if to say, "oh, that's so ridiculous, I don't even have to bother to muster a substantive argument." Scher also refused to rise to the bait when on several occasions Clouthier made winking appeals to the viewers, saying in effect, "Scher's saying one thing, but you and I who are in the know understand that he really means something else." Hey, Melissa: Bill's right there in front of you! Have the courage to confront him instead of resorting to cheap tricks like that. How Scher managed to maintain his equanimity in the face of such rudeness and chicanery is beyond me.

I agree with what kezboard, Ocean and others have said here about Clouthier's repeated invocation of "the American people." I noticed the same thing in the recent Wright/Pinkerton diavlog in which Pinkerton repeatedly used the phrase "What the American people want..." It's an empty bromide that allows one to wrap oneself in the mantle of purported popular sentiment without actually having to come up with a legitimate argument for one's position.

nikkibong 03-06-2010 11:50 AM

Five Stars!
 
...for the thread, not the diavlog. Hilarious comments. "lambchop rule" - brilliant.

listener 03-06-2010 12:45 PM

Re: Political ventriloquism
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kezboard (Post 153353)
I propose a new internet law: any time you say "The people believe such-and-such", you must immediately back it up with data from a reputable pollster or else concede that you're projecting your own opinion onto 300 million people and pretending that justifies your argument. This law will be called Clouthier's Law.

I advocate passage of ths law. And should a filibuster be attempted upon it, I propose that it be passed through reconciliation.

Lambchop rules!

claymisher 03-06-2010 12:47 PM

Re: This is the song that never ends...
 
Where'd the pic go?

BornAgainDemocrat 03-06-2010 12:53 PM

Re: Political ventriloquism
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kezboard (Post 153353)
as in Melissa's argument that the American People see health care reform as "just another big government program"

That reminds me of an old New Yorker cartoon. A speaker before the UN General Assembly is going on about the interests of "the people." One man in the audience turns to another and asks, "Is he talking about our people or your people?"

Unit 03-06-2010 10:49 PM

1.4x
 
The argument for voting against extending unemployment insurance is not just "spending", but the fact that people start looking for a job much more intensely when they get closer to the date when the unemployment checks will stop coming (this is empirical data that looks like a hockey-stick). At some point some people will have to stop waiting to get their old job back and actually start retooling for a different career. This is especially true in the current recession where more than 20% of the unemployment comes from the construction sector, and where, unless we re-inflate a housing bubble, a good portion of these workers will have to recalculate their prospects.

Update: I've changed the title to "1.4x". I'll try to this whenever I have to resort to faster speed while watching to a diavlog.

eeeeeeeli 03-07-2010 12:50 AM

Re: The Week in Blog: Unbaked Cake (Bill Scher & Melissa Clouthier)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 153351)
Oh, badhat, spring is almost here. Time to put away the victim cloak.

Try to wrap your mind around the idea that there is a difference, even in the mind of us self-aggrandizing libtards, between political views we don't agree with and someone just being generally, boneheadedly against "what Obama is trying to do to the American way of life." This is supposed to be a site where we hear from people capable of discussion at a level above talk radio and the cable yakfests.

Agreed 100%. A big reason I enjoy bloggingheads is precisely because melon-heads like Melissa aren't allowed to pummel us with their drivel.

Particularly though, the Week in Blog, where participants should be smartly reporting on what the take is from their side of the blogosphere, not mindlessly repeating their talking points.

kezboard 03-07-2010 11:48 AM

Re: This is the song that never ends...
 
ONOZ.
I think the lolcats online generator must not store the created pictures forever and ever. Fortunately, I saved it.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2697/...c243f77f_m.jpg

bjkeefe 03-07-2010 01:04 PM

Re: This is the song that never ends...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kezboard (Post 153589)
ONOZ.
I think the lolcats online generator must not store the created pictures forever and ever. Fortunately, I saved it.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2697/...c243f77f_m.jpg

Thanks for that. I did not know about Lambchop prior to this thread. (Oh, and a salute to Ocean for the original proposal.)

Thanks also for your earlier link to the top ten list of Internet Laws. Not five minutes ago, I was thinking of one of them and couldn't remember the name. But now, for at least the next ten minutes, I will remember ... Skitt's Law.

Ocean 03-07-2010 01:42 PM

Re: This is the song that never ends...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 153606)
I did not know about Lambchop prior to this thread.

How could you not have known Lambchop?!

(PS: I guess you didn't have kids to watch TV with...)


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