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Bloggingheads 11-02-2009 09:03 PM

Live From Upstate New York! (Matthew Yglesias & David Weigel)
 

TwinSwords 11-02-2009 09:30 PM

Re: Live From Upstate New York! (Matthew Yglesias & David Weigel)
 
Welcome back, David! (And you, too, Matt!)

Dave has been doing yeoman's work covering the lunatic fringe that has taken over the Republican Party, mainly at The Washington Independent. If you want to keep up with the insanity that has consumed the conservative movement and the Republican Party, Dave's work is indispensable.

Thank you for all your efforts, Mr. Weigel.

David Weigel at The Washington Independent.

chiwhisoxx 11-02-2009 09:57 PM

Re: Live From Upstate New York! (Matthew Yglesias & David Weigel)
 
...And thank you for contributing nothing to the discussion at hand, instead dishing out vitriolic partisan bile.

Discussion is pretty good so far, not all the way through yet. Matt is someone who I always enjoy listening to even though I almost always disagree with him. I think he makes unique and insightful points instead of regurgitating punditry, which is refreshing. David is someone I don't quite get; a libertarian who doesn't have I-regret-voting-for-Obama-syndrome, which most libertarians seem to be experiencing some form of these days. I don't know him that well though, maybe he's a Will Wilkinson prototype.

Starwatcher162536 11-02-2009 10:00 PM

I don't understand this strategy.
 
I'm curious to know why so many on the left have chosen to not focus on their own accomplishments, or to at least try and spin current events as accomplishments worthy of a majority party, and have instead opted to focus on the other party's craziness.

It strikes me as a mistake to invest so much time damaging the other partys brand name, when the next big round of elections will be for the
House/Senate/Governor. Historically, the parties brand name appeal is not as important in these more local elections, at least relative to when there is a national elections (President).

Also on a personal level, tracking the Republican base's schizophrenia seems somewhat distasteful, as you will be inevitably making the election(s) more base. Not to mention I really don't care if there is a R or a D next to someones name, all I care about is the individual running.

TwinSwords 11-02-2009 10:00 PM

Re: Live From Upstate New York! (Matthew Yglesias & David Weigel)
 
David also has a YouTube channel.

And: Here's a hilarious-yet-hair-raising post featuring a number of YouTube videos recorded by earnest if deranged Birther / Teabagger types:

Birthers of a Nation

Deeply interesting stuff, at least if the total derangement of the Republican base is interesting.

I would note that ObamaBirther, the user featured in the fourth video in Weigel's story, quit YouTube and shut down his web site (ObamaBirthers.com) soon after he suffered the humiliation of falling hook, line, and sinker for the fake Kenyan Birth Certificate story promoted by WorldNetDaily, Fox News, and the rest of mainstream conservatism. For your amusement, the story that was instrumental in popularizing that particular hoax is here:

Is this really smoking gun of Obama's Kenyan birth?

And here is ObamaBirther's first video on the subject:

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/9...nutbirther.jpg

Remember: As fun as it is to laugh at what has become of conservatism in America, this derangement is now the norm in the Republican Party, and the teabaggers appear poised to claim a seat tomorrow in NY-23.

bjkeefe 11-02-2009 10:16 PM

Re: I don't understand this strategy.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 (Post 135873)
I'm curious to know why so many on the left have chosen to not focus on their own accomplishments, or to at least try and spin current events as accomplishments worthy of a majority party, ...

Well, you said it yourself: spin. Who wants to do that, at least without getting paid for it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 (Post 135873)
... and have instead opted to focus on the other party's craziness.

Partly because it's entertaining, mostly because it's the most worrisome aspect about politics today, and it certainly does not get enough attention in the MSM.

At least, that's how I see it.

kezboard 11-02-2009 10:18 PM

Re: I don't understand this strategy.
 
Quote:

I'm curious to know why so many on the left have chosen to not focus on their own accomplishments, or to at least try and spin current events as accomplishments worthy of a majority party, and have instead opted to focus on the other party's craziness.
It doesn't seem to be the strategy of the elected Democrats. If it's the strategy of liberal pundits, fundraising groups, etc., there are two purposes: the first, to convince Democrats in office that the Republicans are not going to work with them and that they should stop watering their plans down in the name of bipartisanship; the second, well, to raise money.

I have to say I find it a bit irritating to be told all the time that liberals should stop paying attention to the crazies on the Republican side because it doesn't do us any good; it's essentially saying that they're not important and don't have any effect on the political climate. I don't think that's true at all.

chiwhisoxx 11-02-2009 10:19 PM

Re: Live From Upstate New York! (Matthew Yglesias & David Weigel)
 
Are you expecting anyone to take you seriously when you say WorldNetDaily is part of mainstream conservatism? There are plenty of good arguments to make against conservatives, why resort to complete strawmen?

harkin 11-02-2009 10:39 PM

Re: Live From Upstate New York! (Matthew Yglesias & David Weigel)
 
'Teabaggers'? Really? The best you can do is regurgitate a tired, immature piece of snide that even Anderson Cooper realized was playground-level smack and apologized for? Looks like that dialogue with Bob trying to foster civil discourse is working wonders and the high class of the left wing here strikes again.

And while you're laughing at what has become of conservatism, laugh a bit more at liberalism because more Americans describe themselves as conservative than they do liberal (heck even liberals run from the word and try and rebrand themselves as progressives). Even Newt Gingrich is finding out that the Powell/Frum/Brooks brand of socialism-lite is just a slower way to an Obama-style nanny state......and loses elections. NY-23 may be a bellweather for the back room style end runs that Republicans have done in selecting candidates and the present administration uses for Obamacare.

It's pretty pathetic when those who call the other side names for pursuing an Obama birth certificate story support a bill that hasn't been written and promoted by politicians who refuse to read it before voting on it, have no idea how much it will cost and lie repeatedly when discussing it. A better example of hook line and sinker could not be imagined.

But don't worry too much, there are still plenty of Americans, both legal and illegal, who want the government to take care of them. Stand tall for dependency!

Baltimoron 11-02-2009 10:53 PM

Re: Live From Upstate New York! (Matthew Yglesias & David Weigel)
 
I've yet to listen to this diavlog, and have not heard the hypotheses about how NY 23 devolved. But, I would offer that, with corporate money flowing back to keep parity in the political system - to the GOP - and inordinate attention to a mere three races, instead of 2008's full slate, it's easier for conservatives - and I use that term generously - to exert maximum force on one race. I wouldn't call this a trend, just a freak show.

bjkeefe 11-02-2009 10:54 PM

Re: Live From Upstate New York! (Matthew Yglesias & David Weigel)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx (Post 135878)
Are you expecting anyone to take you seriously when you say WorldNetDaily is part of mainstream conservatism? There are plenty of good arguments to make against conservatives, why resort to complete strawmen?

It is, at minimum, a key part of the pipeline by which right-fringe stuff bubbles up to the mainstream media. This has been thorough documented. If you would like to read a quick post illustrating with some examples, here's a recent one. And here is an example of a right-blogger worried about WND's influence.

WND has also been instrumental in sustaining the Birthers, and has been, IIRC, referred to people as high as Republican members of Congress as a credible source in this regard. Here's an example reported by Dave Weigel himself. (If this was mentioned in the diavlog, I apologize -- haven't had a chance to watch this one yet.)

Whether WND is, in and of itself, "part of mainstream conservatism" is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose. You appear to think not. Many others, including some who comment here, might say that such a view means you are Not A Real Conservative.

I myself would call it more toward the fringe than the mainstream, if you're wondering, but I do think (1) it has a lot of clout, and (2) that the boundaries from one section of the pipeline to the next are so blurry it's hard to say.

bjkeefe 11-02-2009 10:56 PM

Re: Live From Upstate New York! (Matthew Yglesias & David Weigel)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Baltimoron (Post 135882)
I've yet to listen to this diavlog, and have not heard the hypotheses about how NY 23 devolved. But, I would offer that, with corporate money flowing back to keep parity in the political system - to the GOP - and inordinate attention to a mere three races, instead of 2008's full slate, it's easier for conservatives - and I use that term generously - to exert maximum force on one race. I wouldn't call this a trend, just a freak show.

Good point -- the ability to concentrate resources would allow a determined, though comparatively small, group to dominate a few local elections.

TwinSwords 11-02-2009 10:58 PM

Re: I don't understand this strategy.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 (Post 135873)
I'm curious to know why so many on the left have chosen to not focus on their own accomplishments, or to at least try and spin current events as accomplishments worthy of a majority party, and have instead opted to focus on the other party's craziness.

This isn't true. We can focus on and talk about more than one thing, and we do. It's just that the wingnut/loon faction that now controls the Republican Party is interesting, and important.

Note: I do recognize that not all Republicans are actually deranged or crazy. Most of the ones I know in real life are perfectly normal. Mainly we're talking about the activists, the people who control the party, and the people who speak for and represent the movement and the party, i.e., the professional class of Republicans.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 (Post 135873)
It strikes me as a mistake to invest so much time damaging the other partys brand name, when the next big round of elections will be for the House/Senate/Governor. Historically, the parties brand name appeal is not as important in these more local elections, at least relative to when there is a national elections (President).

You may be right; I don't know. I do feel that the dangerous lunacy of the Republican base cannot be ignored and is a serious problem, both for the Republican Party and the nation. (And ultimately the world, given America's importance on the national stage.)

Further, I think the hysterical derangement we see in the conservative movement today is going to get a lot worse in the coming years, especially if Republicans don't do well at the polls. If Republicans win a lot of seats in 2010, it may tamp down some of the violent and revolutionary tendencies among the more extreme teabaggers. I suspect that a lot of the violent impulses and extreme views are fueled by conservatives' feelings of powerlessness, so winning some elections might help the more extreme teabaggers feel that they can achieve their goals by working within the system.

If, on the other hand, Republicans continue to be frustrated at the polls, we will see increasing calls for violence, revolution, and secession, along with an increase in actual instances of violence and intimidation.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 (Post 135873)
I really don't care if there is a R or a D next to someones name, all I care about is the individual running.

I have a hard time understanding how anyone can say this. The parties are so different. Only in the complete absence of any values or ideology can I imagine someone not caring what party they vote for. The direction the country will head under R's and D's is so very different, it's baffling to me that you would be happy to go in either direction.

TwinSwords 11-02-2009 11:05 PM

Re: Live From Upstate New York! (Matthew Yglesias & David Weigel)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bjkeefe (Post 135884)
Good point -- the ability to concentrate resources would allow a determined, though comparatively small, group to dominate a few local elections.

What's remarkable about NY-23 is that the wingnut candidate isn't even from the district, and the vast majority of the money funding his campaign comes from outside the district, too. Basically the extremists are buying a congressional seat they have no connection to. You would think the voters of the district would resent a poltical movement dominated by far right extremists swooping in and taking over their district's seat.

If anyone doubts this characterization, note how Dick Armey (one of the leaders of the teabagger mobs who disrupted so many town hall events last summer) chastised a local newspaper as "parochial" for expecting the 3rd party candidate to know something about the district he was running for.

Dick Armey: “Parochial” to Expect Hoffman to Care About His District’s Concerns

Baltimoron 11-02-2009 11:31 PM

Re: Live From Upstate New York! (Matthew Yglesias & David Weigel)
 
Quote:

What's remarkable about NY-23 is that the wingnut candidate isn't even from the district, and the vast majority of the money funding his campaign comes from outside the district, too. Basically the extremists are buying a congressional seat they have no connection to. You would think the voters of the district would resent a poltical movement dominated by far right extremists swooping in and taking over their district's seat.
It will be interesting to look at turnout numbers and how they break down. I assume turnout would be lower for this race than say the '08 races. But, if "foreign" influences cause a surge in turnout, I will begin to question the sanity of the locals. However, it's possible all this hype doesn't affect the turnout, or possibly cause voters to stay away. I wonder if locals are so disaffected that the spectacle of national attention is what is whipping them up, not the race per se.

TwinSwords 11-02-2009 11:58 PM

Re: Live From Upstate New York! (Matthew Yglesias & David Weigel)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Baltimoron (Post 135889)
It will be interesting to look at turnout numbers and how they break down. I assume turnout would be lower for this race than say the '08 races. But, if "foreign" influences cause a surge in turnout, I will begin to question the sanity of the locals. However, it's possible all this hype doesn't affect the turnout, or possibly cause voters to stay away. I wonder if locals are so disaffected that the spectacle of national attention is what is whipping them up, not the race per se.

Good thoughts and questions. What I'm hoping is that where the wingnuts/loons might have been able to win the seat with the low turnout that is the norm in special elections (due to the fact that the extremist base is more activated than other voting populations), the enormous attention and extremely unusual developments in this race (e.g., the R dropping out and endorsing the D) will drive UP voter turnout and defeat the extremist base. If the ultraconservatives win this race even with high turnout, it will be an ominous portent for 2010 and the fate of the nation.

piscivorous 11-03-2009 12:03 AM

Part 1
 
Yes and the propensity of the Democrats to over spend and grow the government has nothing to do with the movement of Independents from supporting their candidates. These few additions to the federal bureaucracy, in speaker Pelosi's health plan, are sure to control costs.

1. Retiree Reserve Trust Fund (Section 111(d), p. 61)
2. Grant program for wellness programs to small employers (Section 112, p. 62)
3. Grant program for State health access programs (Section 114, p. 72)
4. Program of administrative simplification (Section 115, p. 76)
5. Health Benefits Advisory Committee (Section 223, p. 111)
6. Health Choices Administration (Section 241, p. 131)
7. Qualified Health Benefits Plan Ombudsman (Section 244, p. 138)
8. Health Insurance Exchange (Section 201, p. 155)
9. Program for technical assistance to employees of small businesses buying Exchange coverage (Section 305(h), p. 191)
10. Mechanism for insurance risk pooling to be established by Health Choices Commissioner (Section 306(b), p. 194)
11. Health Insurance Exchange Trust Fund (Section 307, p. 195)
12. State-based Health Insurance Exchanges (Section 308, p. 197)
13. Grant program for health insurance cooperatives (Section 310, p. 206)
14. “Public Health Insurance Option” (Section 321, p. 211)
15. Ombudsman for “Public Health Insurance Option” (Section 321(d), p. 213)
16. Account for receipts and disbursements for “Public Health Insurance Option” (Section 322(b), p. 215)
17. Telehealth Advisory Committee (Section 1191 (b), p. 589)
18. Demonstration program providing reimbursement for “culturally and linguistically appropriate services” (Section 1222, p. 617)
19. Demonstration program for shared decision making using patient decision aids (Section 1236, p. 648)
20. Accountable Care Organization pilot program under Medicare (Section 1301, p. 653)
21. Independent patient-centered medical home pilot program under Medicare (Section 1302, p. 672)
22. Community-based medical home pilot program under Medicare (Section 1302(d), p. 681)
23. Independence at home demonstration program (Section 1312, p. 718)
24. Center for Comparative Effectiveness Research (Section 1401(a), p. 734)
25. Comparative Effectiveness Research Commission (Section 1401(a), p. 738)
26. Patient ombudsman for comparative effectiveness research (Section 1401(a), p. 753)
27. Quality assurance and performance improvement program for skilled nursing facilities (Section 1412(b)(1), p. 784)
28. Quality assurance and performance improvement program for nursing facilities (Section 1412 (b)(2), p. 786)
29. Special focus facility program for skilled nursing facilities (Section 1413(a)(3), p. 796)
30. Special focus facility program for nursing facilities (Section 1413(b)(3), p. 804)
31. National independent monitor pilot program for skilled nursing facilities and nursing facilities (Section 1422, p. 859)
32. Demonstration program for approved teaching health centers with respect to Medicare GME (Section 1502(d), p. 933)
33. Pilot program to develop anti-fraud compliance systems for Medicare providers (Section 1635, p. 978)
34. Special Inspector General for the Health Insurance Exchange (Section 1647, p. 1000)
35. Medical home pilot program under Medicaid (Section 1722, p. 1058)
36. Accountable Care Organization pilot program under Medicaid (Section 1730A, p. 1073)
37. Nursing facility supplemental payment program (Section 1745, p. 1106)
38. Demonstration program for Medicaid coverage to stabilize emergency medical conditions in institutions for mental diseases (Section 1787, p. 1149)
39. Comparative Effectiveness Research Trust Fund (Section 1802, p. 1162)
40. “Identifiable office or program” within CMS to “provide for improved coordination between Medicare and Medicaid in the case of dual eligibles” (Section 1905, p. 1191)
41. Center for Medicare and Medicaid Innovation (Section 1907, p. 1198)
42. Public Health Investment Fund (Section 2002, p. 1214)
43. Scholarships for service in health professional needs areas (Section 2211, p. 1224)
44. Program for training medical residents in community-based settings (Section 2214, p. 1236)
45. Grant program for training in dentistry programs (Section 2215, p. 1240)
46. Public Health Workforce Corps (Section 2231, p. 1253)
47. Public health workforce scholarship program (Section 2231, p. 1254)
48. Public health workforce loan forgiveness program (Section 2231, p. 1258)
49. Grant program for innovations in interdisciplinary care (Section 2252, p. 1272)
50. Advisory Committee on Health Workforce Evaluation and Assessment (Section 2261, p. 1275)
51. Prevention and Wellness Trust (Section 2301, p. 1286)
52. Clinical Prevention Stakeholders Board (Section 2301, p. 1295)
53. Community Prevention Stakeholders Board (Section 2301, p. 1301)
54. Grant program for community prevention and wellness research (Section 2301, p. 1305)
55. Grant program for research and demonstration projects related to wellness incentives (Section 2301, p. 1305)
56. Grant program for community prevention and wellness services (Section 2301, p. 1308)
57. Grant program for public health infrastructure (Section 2301, p. 1313)
58. Center for Quality Improvement (Section 2401, p. 1322)
59. Assistant Secretary for Health Information (Section 2402, p. 1330)
60. Grant program to support the operation of school-based health clinics (Section 2511, p. 1352)
61. Grant program for nurse-managed health centers (Section 2512, p. 1361)
62. Grants for labor-management programs for nursing training (Section 2521, p. 1372)
63. Grant program for interdisciplinary mental and behavioral health training (Section 2522, p. 1382)
64. “No Child Left Unimmunized Against Influenza” demonstration grant program (Section 2524, p. 1391)
65. Healthy Teen Initiative grant program regarding teen pregnancy (Section 2526, p. 1398)
66. Grant program for interdisciplinary training, education, and services for individuals with autism (Section 2527(a), p. 1402)
67. University centers for excellence in developmental disabilities education (Section 2527(b), p. 1410)
68. Grant program to implement medication therapy management services (Section 2528, p. 1412)
69. Grant program to promote positive health behaviors in underserved communities (Section 2530, p. 1422)
70. Grant program for State alternative medical liability laws (Section 2531, p. 1431)
71. Grant program to develop infant mortality programs (Section 2532, p. 1433)
72. Grant program to prepare secondary school students for careers in health professions (Section 2533, p. 1437)
73. Grant program for community-based collaborative care (Section 2534, p. 1440)
74. Grant program for community-based overweight and obesity prevention (Section 2535, p. 1457)
75. Grant program for reducing the student-to-school nurse ratio in primary and secondary schools (Section 2536, p. 1462)
76. Demonstration project of grants to medical-legal partnerships (Section 2537, p. 1464)
77. Center for Emergency Care under the Assistant Secretary for Preparedness and Response (Section 2552, p. 1478)
78. Council for Emergency Care (Section 2552, p 1479)
79. Grant program to support demonstration programs that design and implement regionalized emergency care systems (Section 2553, p. 1480)
80. Grant program to assist veterans who wish to become emergency medical technicians upon discharge (Section 2554, p. 1487)
81. Interagency Pain Research Coordinating Committee (Section 2562, p. 1494)
82. National Medical Device Registry (Section 2571, p. 1501)
83. CLASS Independence Fund (Section 2581, p. 1597)
84. CLASS Independence Fund Board of Trustees (Section 2581, p. 1598)
85. CLASS Independence Advisory Council (Section 2581, p. 1602)
86. Health and Human Services Coordinating Committee on Women’s Health (Section 2588, p. 1610)
87. National Women’s Health Information Center (Section 2588, p. 1611)
88. Centers for Disease Control Office of Women’s Health (Section 2588, p. 1614)
89. Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality Office of Women’s Health and Gender-Based Research (Section 2588, p. 1617)
90. Health Resources and Services Administration Office of Women’s Health (Section 2588, p. 1618)
91. Food and Drug Administration Office of Women’s Health (Section 2588, p. 1621)
92. Personal Care Attendant Workforce Advisory Panel (Section 2589(a)(2), p. 1624)
93. Grant program for national health workforce online training (Section 2591, p. 1629)
94. Grant program to disseminate best practices on implementing health workforce investment programs (Section 2591, p. 1632)
95. Demonstration program for chronic shortages of health professionals (Section 3101, p. 1717)
96. Demonstration program for substance abuse counselor educational curricula (Section 3101, p. 1719)
97. Program of Indian community education on mental illness (Section 3101, p. 1722)
98. Intergovernmental Task Force on Indian environmental and nuclear hazards (Section 3101, p. 1754)
99. Office of Indian Men’s Health (Section 3101, p. 1765)
100. Indian Health facilities appropriation advisory board (Section 3101, p. 1774)
101. Indian Health facilities needs assessment workgroup (Section 3101, p. 1775)
102. Indian Health Service tribal facilities joint venture demonstration projects (Section 3101, p. 1809)
103. Urban youth treatment center demonstration project (Section 3101, p. 1873)
104. Grants to Urban Indian Organizations for diabetes prevention (Section 3101, p. 1874)
105. Grants to Urban Indian Organizations for health IT adoption (Section 3101, p. 1877)
106. Mental health technician training program (Section 3101, p. 1898)
107. Indian youth telemental health demonstration project (Section 3101, p. 1909)

piscivorous 11-03-2009 12:04 AM

Part II
 
108. Program for treatment of child sexual abuse victims and perpetrators (Section 3101, p. 1925)
109. Program for treatment of domestic violence and sexual abuse (Section 3101, p. 1927)
110. Native American Health and Wellness Foundation (Section 3103, p. 1966)
111. Committee for the Establishment of the Native American Health and Wellness Foundation (Section 3103, p. 1968).

TwinSwords 11-03-2009 12:53 AM

Doug Hoffman pledges "sacred honor" to Glenn Beck, who he calls "my mentor"
 
Did ya get that?

The wingnut / loon Doug Hoffman told Glenn Beck that Beck is his "mentor," and pledged his "sacred honor" to Beck. WTF?

Check out this incredible report from Rachel Maddow.

To the critics who wish we would just sweep the crazy under the carpet, this is what has become of the Republican Party. We have to talk about it if we care about the fate of the nation.

Baltimoron 11-03-2009 12:54 AM

Re: Live From Upstate New York! (Matthew Yglesias & David Weigel)
 
Quote:

If the ultraconservatives win this race even with high turnout, it will be an ominous portent for 2010 and the fate of the nation.
House Minority Leader Boehner made a point I think on CNN to assure moderates they had a place in the GOP. The Dems in '08 couldn't win without running moderates and conservatives even as plump with donations as they were. I doubt the GOP could attract more money in less than a year, and run a national campaign spending so much money as they have in these three races.

I wouldn't be surprised, though, if the money materialized. I'm angry that these elections are not anti-Wall Street referendums. I assume now that Wall Street could spend its money - a weird form of public finance - on the midterms and no one would care. That even the GOP couldn't turn this into a referendum speaks volumes about how both parties will spread their legs.

TwinSwords 11-03-2009 12:57 AM

Re: Live From Upstate New York! (Matthew Yglesias & David Weigel)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Baltimoron (Post 135896)
I assume now that Wall Street could spend its money - a weird form of public finance

God, that's a great point.

Reminds me, actually, of how we pay a fortune in insurance premiums to insurance companies who then use the money we give them to run ads against health care reform, to hire lobbyists to defeat reform, and to fund candidates for office who are opposed to reform. They are using our money to screw us.

And your point that bailout trillions are going to be used in much the same way is well taken.

What a messed up system.

Baltimoron 11-03-2009 01:00 AM

Re: Doug Hoffman pledges "sacred honor" to Glenn Beck, who he calls "my mentor"
 
Quote:

The wingnut / loon Doug Hoffman told Glenn Beck that Beck is his "mentor," and pledged his "sacred honor" to Beck. WTF?
I never would have picked Hoffman for a fantasy stint as a rodeo clown! Maybe learning to deploy Vaseline and bawling uncontrollably on TV could come in handy one day!

I have no problem with Glenn Beck for chairman of a minority Nationalist People's party. He could split ballots for the Dems any day!

Unit 11-03-2009 01:00 AM

Hoover was a big spender
 
And FDR ran on continuing Hoover's spending policies. I can't see how David Weigel can say the opposite:

Under President Herbert Hoover (1929-1933) real per-capita federal spending rose by 82 percent - larger than the 74 percent rise in real per-capita federal expenditures from 1933-1940


Also, it's kind of convenient to point to Hoover's "fiscal" policies and forget that the quantity of money was allowed to contract by a third....

Baltimoron 11-03-2009 01:08 AM

Re: Live From Upstate New York! (Matthew Yglesias & David Weigel)
 
Quote:

They are using our money to screw us.
Honestly, I was shocked to hear the counsel for Citizens United in its case against FEC argue that corporations needed free speech protection, because corporations needed elections to avenge any action taken by the three branches of the Federal government and states. Now, I see that argument was serious, and that corporations aren't waiting for SCOTUS to rule.

Baltimoron 11-03-2009 01:11 AM

Re: Hoover was a big spender
 
This Board has visited this enough to know better. Depression economics and political history are tricky, which makes them fertile ground for spin.

Unit 11-03-2009 01:12 AM

Re: Hoover was a big spender
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Baltimoron (Post 135902)
This Board has visited this enough to know better. Depression economics and political history are tricky, which makes them fertile ground for spin.

82% is hard data, not spin.

Baltimoron 11-03-2009 01:15 AM

Re: Hoover was a big spender
 
How many voters do you know who read Eichengreen?

Unit 11-03-2009 01:22 AM

Re: Hoover was a big spender
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Baltimoron (Post 135904)
How many voters do you know who read Eichengreen?

I wasn't talking about voters, but what Mr. Weigel said, which is historically inaccurate. Why voters vote the way they do is a mystery to me and I'm not going to even start making conjectures.

Baltimoron 11-03-2009 01:30 AM

Re: Hoover was a big spender
 
Quote:

I wasn't talking about voters, but what Mr. Weigel said, which is historically inaccurate.
Exposing the examples of lies foisted on voters by the media is a full-time occupation. But, you need to read Rousseau about the value of persuasion, and the poverty of reason, in politics. Start with Emile.

bjkeefe 11-03-2009 03:57 AM

A Missing Link
 
Here's something that was mentioned during the diavlog that should have been posted on the sidebar: The local paper's editorial about new conservative darling Doug Hoffman being thoroughly clueless about local issues (via).

I was about to say this was the best part ...

Quote:

A flustered and ill-at-ease Mr. Hoffman objected to the heated questioning, saying he should have been provided a list of questions he might be asked.
... since it reminded me so much of previous darlings of the far right -- George W. Bush and Sarah Palin -- and their inability to deal with honest interviews where, you know, you don't actually get a list of prepared questions in advance. But then, I read the next sentence:

Quote:

He was, if he had taken the time to read the Thursday morning Times editorial raising the very same questions.
As in, Watertown Daily Times -- the same paper he knew he'd be meeting with the next day.

But as long as he's got his lips firmly planted on Glenn Beck's butt, I guess he's as fully informed and well-prepared as <strike>teabaggers</strike> Movement Conservatives could ever ask.

P.S. These gotcha interviews from the liebrul media have got to stop. Also.

TwinSwords 11-03-2009 07:33 AM

Weigel video: Hoffman voter calls for violent overthrow of US Govt.
 
Posted by David Weigel on his YouTube channel moments ago:

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/3...ffmanvoter.jpg

"I was at a tea party, but [elections are] too slow of a process for me. I'm more on the violent side. I'm more of the civil war revolutionary."

On Obama: "He's Muslim by origin."

Ladies and gentlemen, the Republican Party.

Starwatcher162536 11-03-2009 08:01 AM

Re: I don't understand this strategy.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TwinSwords (Post 135885)

[...]

I have a hard time understanding how anyone can say this. The parties are so different. Only in the complete absence of any values or ideology can I imagine someone not caring what party they vote for. The direction the country will head under R's and D's is so very different, it's baffling to me that you would be happy to go in either direction.

The range of issues in which I have any idea what I am talking about is rather narrow. As such, on most things I usually just end up throwing up my hands and thinking "I have no idea what policy X's aggregate effects will be". For example, the last thing I really started to look through whose ab initio cause for me to start looking at because of politics was Climate Change. Three years later, I still am a fence-sitter, who is unsure of what should be done. This line of events really is the mode for the set of events that contains all the times I tried to become informed about some political issue.

As for my lack of a general philosophy, I tend to either see both sides as making worthwhile points or see both sides as not being experimentally justified. For example, on the various permutations of the redistribution argument, I see the argument about it not being fair to tax those who have (presumably) worked harder to achieve success at such disproportionate rates as a reasonable argument to make. However, I also see that there is a vast difference in initial conditions for people, and a progressive tax schema is needed to keep wealth from becoming hereditary.

The above reasons are why I tend to look at the attributes of the candidates themselves, instead of just making a checklist of positions, and voting for someone who agrees with me more.

Unit 11-03-2009 08:58 AM

Re: Hoover was a big spender
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Baltimoron (Post 135909)
Exposing the examples of lies foisted on voters by the media is a full-time occupation. But, you need to read Rousseau about the value of persuasion, and the poverty of reason, in politics. Start with Emile.

I was given to read Rousseau in high-school and have tried to stir away from him ever since.

Simon Willard 11-03-2009 10:40 AM

Re: I don't understand this strategy.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 (Post 135934)
I tend to look at the attributes of the candidates themselves, instead of just making a checklist of positions.

Starwatcher! You have written a brilliant post, and BHtv is the place to say it. I agree with your philosophy (or lack thereof). Your entire post is reproduced below:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 (Post 135934)
The range of issues in which I have any idea what I am talking about is rather narrow. As such, on most things I usually just end up throwing up my hands and thinking "I have no idea what policy X's aggregate effects will be". For example, the last thing I really started to look through whose ab initio cause for me to start looking at because of politics was Climate Change. Three years later, I still am a fence-sitter, who is unsure of what should be done. This line of events really is the mode for the set of events that contains all the times I tried to become informed about some political issue.

As for my lack of a general philosophy, I tend to either see both sides as making worthwhile points or see both sides as not being experimentally justified. For example, on the various permutations of the redistribution argument, I see the argument about it not being fair to tax those who have (presumably) worked harder to achieve success at such disproportionate rates as a reasonable argument to make. However, I also see that there is a vast difference in initial conditions for people, and a progressive tax schema is needed to keep wealth from becoming hereditary.

The above reasons are why I tend to look at the attributes of the candidates themselves, instead of just making a checklist of positions, and voting for someone who agrees with me more.


Simon Willard 11-03-2009 11:14 AM

Part III
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by piscivorous (Post 135893)
108. Program for treatment of child sexual abuse victims and perpetrators (Section 3101, p. 1925)
109. Program for treatment of domestic violence and sexual abuse (Section 3101, p. 1927)
110. Native American Health and Wellness Foundation (Section 3103, p. 1966)
111. Committee for the Establishment of the Native American Health and Wellness Foundation (Section 3103, p. 1968).

Thanks, Pisc. The bureaucracy boggles the mind.

Hey, I think I found a hole in the plan! What about this:

112. Pilot program to provide for improved coordination between the Committee for the Establishment of the Native American Health and Wellness Foundation and the Demonstration program providing reimbursement for “culturally and linguistically appropriate services”.

No one could deny the value of these efforts, and no one could deny the synergistic benefits of better coordination between them. So why is it missing? I propose to set up this pilot program myself with $4 million of seed money, if this can be worked into the budget. It's really a modest request.

bjkeefe 11-03-2009 02:04 PM

Re: Weigel video: Hoffman voter calls for violent overthrow of US Govt.
 
Here's a direct link to the video.

piscivorous 11-03-2009 02:08 PM

Re: Weigel video: Hoffman voter calls for violent overthrow of US Govt.
 
Friend of yours is he?

bjkeefe 11-03-2009 02:59 PM

More David Weigel on NY-23
 
Jim Newell has (ACORN!!!1!) excerpts from and commentary on a longish Election Day report from Dave: "A New Conservative Star Wrestles With the Spotlight: First-time Candidate Buoyed, Caught Off Guard as Campaign Becomes National Cause."

Also, via Dave, here's Nate Silver's take.

PreppyMcPrepperson 11-03-2009 03:11 PM

Re: I don't understand this strategy.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TwinSwords (Post 135885)
I have a hard time understanding how anyone can say this. The parties are so different. Only in the complete absence of any values or ideology can I imagine someone not caring what party they vote for. The direction the country will head under R's and D's is so very different, it's baffling to me that you would be happy to go in either direction.

Read this.

bjkeefe 11-03-2009 03:34 PM

Thuggery in Upstate New York!
 
The NY Daily News (via TPM) reports that police have been called to at least two polling places in NY-23 due to complaints about overzealous Hoffman supporters.

I'm sure it will be revealed soon that these are undercover agents ("bots") from AoCbOaRmNa.


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