Occupy Phoenix: The vanguard of Revolution
 

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/val...mb-500x333.jpg

Occupy Phoenix: Fliers Titled "When Should You Shoot a Cop" Found at Demonstration

Department of Public Safety officials confirm to New Times that a stack of fliers was found at the "Occupy Phoenix" demonstration at Cesar Chavez Plaza in Phoenix yesterday. The fliers basically explain when it's OK to shoot a cop, hence the title of the document: "When Should You Shoot a Cop."


Here is the document in question:

http://content.clearchannel.com/cc-c...1319803260.pdf

Now.....this raises a number of issues. Does it not?

Re: Occupy Phoenix: The vanguard of Revolution
 

Yes. One question is who put the fliers there. Given the documented history of right wing folks attempting to foment conflict with the police by pretending to be part of the protester group, I would not be surprised by any answer to the question.

Re: Occupy Phoenix: The vanguard of Revolution
 

That's right. And also the content of the flyer may be more in line with an extreme libertarian ideology.

Re: Occupy Phoenix: The vanguard of Revolution
 

Yeah, like "who put those signs there?"

Given the overwhelming interesting of the Fox News set in discrediting OWS, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if there are massive efforts underway to infiltrate and sabotage the movement.

Whether that's true or not, clearly the "let's shoot cops" position doesn't reflect the attitude of more than 99% of the 99%ers. And I suspect you know that.

Re: Occupy Phoenix: The vanguard of Revolution
 

Indeed.

I remember when John Kerry was running for president, conservative activists dressed up in flamboyant costumes representing stereotypical gay people, and then went around standing conspicuously on corners with signs demanding things like the right to adopt children.

As you say, there is a long, long history of right wing folks -- and the United States government! -- infiltrating and undermining movements on the left.

Re: Occupy Phoenix: The vanguard of Revolution
 

The same was true about many of the smears regarding the tea party, and I didn't see you making similar points.

Re: Occupy Phoenix: The vanguard of Revolution
 

Well, in their defence, there were a lot of Republicans of that era who were yearning to publically behave like their conception of homosexuals (outside of rest stops in any case)

Re: Occupy Phoenix: The vanguard of Revolution
 

Interesting that you jump to "conspiracy". How about the people in the photos with the firearms? Those are people at the Occupy Phoenix demonstration. Are they also Conservative provocateurs?

Re: Occupy Phoenix: The vanguard of Revolution
 

Conspiracy theories make the world magical. I mean, it must be incredible to belong to a political movement that has never done anything wrong. Every embarrassment is due to enemies in the media, every extreme act is done by spies and provocateurs, every crime is done by CIA agents.

Re: Occupy Phoenix: The vanguard of Revolution
 

We can get to that question later. First we need to finally get to the bottom of the role FOX news played in the Kennedy assassination; pivotal or tertiary?

Hmmm....

I ultimately did go ahead and use the subject for a post in this thread, with the same intent: to start a series of posts highlighting what the armed wing of the Democratic Party looks like today.

They are really intensely militant anti-capitalist types who are deep into fantasy about murdering American leaders and overthrowing the economic system. Anyone who has followed this movement for any period of time knows this.

I think it's important for people to realize what is motivating this extremist element, because there are a hell of a lot of them, and they are dangerous.

Re: Occupy Phoenix: The vanguard of Revolution
 

Oh, yes? I never heard of them. Can you tell us more? Where are they?

I've known about militias for years, but I always identified them with extreme right movements. There are also some cultish religious groups. But where are or who are these armed Democrats?

Re: Occupy Phoenix: The vanguard of Revolution
 

I didn't use the word conspiracy, so not sure whence the quotes. I specifically said that no answer would surprise me, meaning I am open to anything.

If you are claiming that I jumped to "conspiracy" as one of literally infinite possibilities, then guilty as charged.

I assumed the guy(??) in red had a plastic gun, not a real one, but you're right, there's no way of knowing whether he's a provocateur or not.

Re: Occupy Phoenix: The vanguard of Revolution
 

Just in case anyone happens to be visiting from Mars, hasn't heard about the documented case of provocateuring, and thinks Sulla's charges of "conspiracy theorist" have some basis in this case, here's the link to the post, *by the editor of a right wing outfit*, describing *his own* provocateuring:

http://spectator.org/blog/2011/10/08/standoff-in-dc

That, and the logic of Sulla's argument amounts to: 1) here's something completely crazy that the OWS people are doing; 2) you doubt the veracity of this crazy thing? are you saying your movement is perfect in every way?

In other words "stop hitting yourself"

Re: Occupy Phoenix: The vanguard of Revolution
 

Mor on the occupy phoenix shenanigans:

http://mediamatters.org/blog/201110270025

For some time, the right-wing media has been attempting to brand Occupy Wall Street and related protests as anti-Semitic. In the latest example, conservative blogger Jim Hoft is pointing to video of heavily armed Neo-Nazi J.T. Ready patrolling the Occupy Phoenix protest and saying nice things about the movement.

Hoft sarcastically concludes, "Yup. They're just like the tea party."

It's worth pointing out that much of the rhetoric Ready spouts during the video -- decrying fiat money, saying that he and others were "exercising our Second Amendment right so that everybody can have a First Amendment right," claiming that Operation Fast and Furious was intended to "take away our rights" and the perpetrators are traitors who should be put to death -- sounds much more like the rhetoric of a conservative protestor than an OWS supporter.

And indeed, that's the problem for Hoft: Ready previously attended and reportedly spoke at Tea Party rallies.

Re: Occupy Phoenix: The vanguard of Revolution
 

Which one is JT Ready, the black guy with the shotgun or the white woman with the automatic pistol at her hip?

Re: Occupy Phoenix: The vanguard of Revolution
 

That is definitely not a plastic gun. Neither is the automatic in the holster of the woman to his right.

Re: Occupy Phoenix: The vanguard of Revolution
 

Which has nothing to do with this. Note that the Left did this at the Tea Party too; there was a guy who was a Democratic party activist who showed up at a Tea Party with Obama described in racist fashion on a placard. Does that mean that all, or most, or anymore than 10% of embarrassing Tea Party incidents are Democratic provocateurs?

The point is that you just jumped to provocateurs. Immediately, without any evidence. Doesn't seem a proper way to evaluate a thing, does it?

Re: Occupy Phoenix: The vanguard of Revolution
 

Well they're mostly old men now. But the Weather Underground, the SLA, the Black Panthers, ELF, etc are pretty well known. I'm surprised you haven't heard of them.

Not really Republicans though.


http://www.laborunionreport.com/port...1/08/Scab1.jpg

The Monroe County Sheriff's Department is working to solve a case of vandalism that turned life-threatening.

John King was shot in the arm last week when he surprised a man trying to slash the tires on the truck at his Lambertville home.The word "scab" was also scrawled on the side.

King says he became suspicious when he saw an outside security light outside go on.

When he stepped out of his front door, the man fired one shot and ran off.

King is the owner of the largest non-union electrical contracting company in the area.

Anyone with information should call the Monroe County Sheriff's office at 734-240-7530.

http://www.wtol.com/story/15273318/l...type=printable

Re: Occupy Phoenix: The vanguard of Revolution
 

Right, because my post was intended to identify the people in the photo, not to explain why people are suspicious of this kind of argument.

Re: Occupy Phoenix: The vanguard of Revolution
 

I jumped to "provocateurs" as a possibility, not a conclusion. You jumped to the conclusion (not possibility) of a violent vanguard of democratic activists.

But yes, horrible for me to raise a possibility, kudos to you for asserting with absolute certainty.

Re: Occupy Phoenix: The vanguard of Revolution
 

Ah, okay. I know about those. I thought you were talking about something new. And as you say, those groups belong to history.

Don't know. Most people who are in the right tend to vote Republican. They are allergic to Dems.

That's an isolated event and unrelated to OWS. Trying to make a direct link between something like the above and the beginning of a revolution or a state of emergency would be an incredible stretch.

I get the general point that you're trying to get back at Dems for their reaction to the Tea Party demonstrations, but, I would hope you don't get too carried away.

If there was a real threat of the OWS getting violent, we would all take it seriously.

Re: Occupy Phoenix: The vanguard of Revolution
 

No, I think JT is a distraction. It has been a sloppy political science universe that has placed Nazis simply "on the right". The premise for 1930s fascism was actually "centrism", as far as they were concerned, when it came to the great economic debates of the day. Real Nazis would agree with most of OWS's economic stands ("Abolish the thralldom of interest"), though obviously not the social or cultural stuff. It is a complicated matter.

Which is why this is a very ironic event. When and if people like JT showed up at Tea Party events, they were portrayed as belonging there. I think that you would agree, now, that that was unfair.

So too, the BIG noise the Left made about that incident where people showed up with guns was greatly overdone. Especially since on the right, there is a real issue being pointed to, gun ownership. These guys almost certainly aren't carrying weapons to demonstrate their support for that position.

Another interesting question is; do you expect to see anything about this story on MSNBC, considering the attention they gave (Even editing video to mislead) on a similar matter with the Tea Party?

Re: Occupy Phoenix: The vanguard of Revolution
 

Not a conclusion, just a rather amusing title for a pretty ironic event.

We should operate on the premise that people are who they say they are until proof comes to the fore showing otherwise.

Re: Occupy Phoenix: The vanguard of Revolution
 

I know some Nigerian princes that would just love to talk to you.

Re: Occupy Phoenix: The vanguard of Revolution
 

So, when you composed the following two paragraphs:


what the armed wing of the Democratic Party looks like today.

They are really intensely militant anti-capitalist types who are deep into fantasy about murdering American leaders and overthrowing the economic system. Anyone who has followed this movement for any period of time knows this.

you weren't actually making any kind of factual statement about a wing of the Dem party? You really had a whole bunch of implicit "could be" and "might be" and "it's possible that..." peppered in there, invisible to the naked eye?

Re: Occupy Phoenix: The vanguard of Revolution
 

Ha, actually what I did there was update a post by Twin Swords from a year ago with relevant portions updated, in bold.

http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showth...uns#post125385

That comment, back then, didn't seem to be very controversial. Wonder why?

Re: Occupy Phoenix: The vanguard of Revolution
 

Because it reflected some aspect of reality and not like the deception you tried to create. I'll refer to my previous post.

Re: Occupy Phoenix: The vanguard of Revolution
 

Really? Which of those "dozen people" Twin Swords was talking about ever killed anyone, or was remotely dangerous?

Even after the intervening year, you can't admit that that exact type of rhetoric was hyperbolic and obviously designed to magnify marginal people at the Tea Party for electoral reasons?

Re: Occupy Phoenix: The vanguard of Revolution
 

Nice try. This crazy leaflet was apparently written by a guy called Larken Rose, and originally posted here. Larken Rose is a notorious anti-tax nut who was denounced by the Tea Party in Philadelphia for being too crazy. The stuff he talks about in his article is not exactly the sort of thing left-wing protesters tend to thrill to -- shout outs to Waco and Randy Weaver are not going to get him too far at OWS, I don't think. Left-wingers don't tend to believe in this "first amendment is protected by the second" horseshit. And unsurprisingly Occupy Phoenix has denied having anything to do with the flyers.

This comment was posted under a recent post addressing the Occupy Phoenix flyers on the copblock.org site:
Chris Broughton is apparently the African-American guy who brought the gun to that Obama event in Phoenix in 2009. Obviously, this all could be made up. Regardless, what seems clear is that someone unaffiliated with Larken Rose brought his stupid fliers to Occupy Phoenix for whatever reason. It's a tempest in a teapot. If you want to know what Occupy Phoenix is really doing, you can look at the extensive notes of their meetings, which are mostly dedicated to stuff like logistics.

Re: Occupy Phoenix: The vanguard of Revolution
 

After an intervening year, there's a sigh of relief, at least from some of us, that some of the more suspicious elements (those who gave indication of willingness to use violent means) were just isolated individuals, and that there has been no evidence of such organized violent activity.

You may dismiss that kind of worry, however, although Republicans mostly denied it when called on it, there was some significant rhetoric making reference to violent means coming from Republican political figures.

I think we can only wait and see where these movements go. It looks like the Tea Party, at least in its original version is in the process of disappearing. Perhaps they allowed too many inadequate candidates to represent them or their message became obsolete.

In terms of OWS, it's to early to tell.

Re: Occupy Phoenix: The vanguard of Revolution
 

Then you must be holding your breath now, no? After all, these people are part of a movement that has already had violent clashes with the police, and where four rapes have occurred. This group has demonstrated a capacity for violence already; how comfortable are you now that we're seeing them armed?

I do dismiss it, and the reason Republicans didn't take that very seriously is because people on your side of the aisle suggested things like Sarah Palin's targeting map led to an act of violence.

No, it has achieved success. It has at least 50 members of the House who can be considered pretty strictly aligned with them. It has been integrated into the Republican primary electorate, and has demonstrated a willingness to challenge the GOP establishment. The Tea Party has won a real political objective.

Odd, one would think that a sweep by the party larger than any since 1946 in the House, and 6 seats gained in the Senate, would argue against them being "inadequate". Considering they could swing as many as another 7 seats in the Senate based on turnout alone, one wonders if their message is obsolete. It seems that they're now a major force in American politics, within the process.

How it is supposed to work.

Re: Occupy Phoenix: The vanguard of Revolution
 

There are many ways of interpreting this phenomenon. It may be something that came, blew hard and went. Too much craziness. Many who voted and supported those representatives are probably regretting it. History will tell.