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apple
08-04-2011, 08:03 PM
SAN ANGELO — Polygamist leader Warren Jeffs was convicted on child sexual assault charges stemming from the 2008 raid on his sect's Texas compound.

The case was sent to the jury earlier Thursday, after the polygamist leader stood mostly mute for his closing argument.

Jeffs, who acted as his own attorney, stood expressionless, staring at the floor, for all but a few seconds of the half hour he was allotted. At one point he mumbled, “I am peace,” and said no more.

(...)

Prosecutors used DNA evidence to show Jeffs fathered a child with a 15-year old, and played an audio recording of what they said was him sexually assaulting a 12-year-old.

“You might have asked yourselves,” Nichols said, “a lot of people may ask, why would someone record sex? ... This individual considers himself to be the prophet. Everything he did, hour after hour, he was required to keep a record of that.”

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/chronicle/7683217.html

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Why is this man's 'religious liberty' being violated? Isn't it the case that prohibiting something that happens to coincide with some religious practice is a violation of 'religious liberty'?

sugarkang
08-04-2011, 09:05 PM
Freedom of religion doesn't mean immunity from criminal law.

miceelf
08-04-2011, 09:32 PM
Freedom of religion doesn't mean immunity from criminal law.

I agree, as I suspect does every single person who has posted on the bhtv forums in the past year.

apple
08-05-2011, 07:10 PM
Freedom of religion doesn't mean immunity from criminal law.

Then you believe that 'freedom of religion' automatically excludes anything the state has chosen to outlaw? Good,we agree about that. Sadly, many people disagree, and think that special exemptions should be made to accommodate the psychosis of lunatics such as this most esteemed prophet (peace be upon him).

sugarkang
08-05-2011, 08:00 PM
Sadly, many people disagree, and think that special exemptions should be made to accommodate the psychosis of lunatics such as this most esteemed prophet (peace be upon him).

We also agree about this and I also recognize this as a problem. But then you've got to separate out the cause of the problem. Is it due to religion or due to human stupidity? That is, if you remove the religion out of stupid people, are you better off? Somehow, in aggregate, I think not.

apple
08-05-2011, 08:13 PM
We also agree about this and I also recognize this as a problem. But then you've got to separate out the cause of the problem. Is it due to religion or due to human stupidity? That is, if you remove the religion out of stupid people, are you better off? Somehow, in aggregate, I think not.

I wouldn't know, this is a hard thing to measure, and there isn't any control group available, as very poor countries tend to be extremely religious (no doubt you think this is because it serves a social function). Religious pathologies are pretty unique, so there is definitely some barbarism that originates with religion. But of course, your point is that the people might be worse in other respects, if religion was not there to tame them (somewhat). The problem is that religion does not seem to have the effect of taming them, but rather, providing them with justifications to create all sorts of mayhem. So I find it really hard to imagine that Afghanistan would be even worse if it were not so religious, especially seeing that similarly poor countries aren't nearly as barbaric.

sugarkang
08-05-2011, 08:25 PM
I wouldn't know, this is a hard thing to measure, and there isn't any control group available, as very poor countries tend to be extremely religious (no doubt you think this is because it serves a social function).

Let me put it to you another way. If you have a borderline questionable Muslim family in America (i.e., almost unreasonably orthodox), how religious do you think their kids will be? And then their kids after them?

Even if I agree with you that religion per se is a problem, civilization seems to be the cure. It's just that we don't have the money to go nation building in all of the Middle East.

apple
08-05-2011, 09:01 PM
Let me put it to you another way. If you have a borderline questionable Muslim family in America (i.e., almost unreasonably orthodox), how religious do you think their kids will be? And then their kids after them?

One would assume that they would move toward the "mainstream". But to assume that this is always the case is misleading, considering the worldwide Islamic revival that has taken place over the past 20 years. Let's take Egypt as an example. I've often cited polls showing that the vast majority of Egyptians are barbarians. Has this increased or decreased over the past fifty years? Only two polls are available, both from the 2000s, but the circumstantial evidence is rather strong: I think it was the New York Times, but I read a very interesting article mentioning how older, relatively secular Egyptian women were shamed into wearing headscarves by their children and grandchildren. Anwar Sadat amended Egypt's constitution to either mention Islam more prominently, or to mention it at all, but he was murdered by radical Muslims anyway. And now, the new 'democratic' constitution, establishes Islam as the official state religion, and though it does not (necessarily) infringe on the rights of Christians, one still has to fear for the fate of the Copts, in the face of the cowardice and immorality of the worms the West calls its leaders.

Even if I agree with you that religion per se is a problem, civilization seems to be the cure. It's just that we don't have the money to go nation building in all of the Middle East.

I actually do not believe that religion, period, is the problem. Not every religion, not all forms of religion, not at all times. Maybe enlightened Christianity would do more good than harm, although it does seem to turn people into pussies (as does atheism). However, you once said that religion has raised the civilizational level of Afghanistan to its still very low current state, and I do disagree with that.